DUST Search - @Rattati: Logi Slot Layouts

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

John Demonsbane wrote:

More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!

Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it.

OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module.

Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations.

John Demonsbane wrote:

...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid"

A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles.

A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary.

Edit:
As far as ADSs are concerned, I'd love to have a role as defined as a Logi. Currently we're toothless against even one AVer and simply less applicable than a normal DS,which are also pretty irrelevant. People complained about ADSs murdering infantry and decided to nerf everything about them but didn't actually allow them to function in any particular role.

The change to AmLogi would not nerf it: it would redefine it in line with all of the other Logis.


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John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:59:00 - [1] - Quote If the Amarr logi losing it's sidearm isn't the end of the world, then please explain how it keeping it is. To keep reversing your senseless argument, please also explain why it is such a big problem for it to have one other than "derp it's not a combat suit" or "they nerfed my (broken and obviously OP, btw) cal scout so too bad" I would just once like to have someone explain how it's literally impossible to balance logi suits and redo the slots without removing it. (which is the logical endpoint of your argument, tbh) Edit: and it's abso-freaking-lately a suit breaking change. A huge amount of the suits I was building in preparation for the BW changes would be useless without a sidearm. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:48:00 - [2] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Um, how am I an Assault/Scout QQer?!? I run Logi, I love Logi-ing. Having a sidearm is not a part of the Logi role. I run Assault, Logi, Sentinel, Commando and vehicles: I skilled out of scouts because of ridiculous advantages making them uninteresting. So AmLogis. Why do they need a sidearm? To not be **** when they run swarms? Why shouldn't they get ** up when running a Swarm or other support type weapon? That is the point of an Assault: you're tougher and more versatile in a combat situation but don't have the breadth of equipment options/equipment support. What is the point of running an Assault with Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever, when you can run that Logi who can have EHP to rival it (300 total? Sure, you've just sacrificed a bunch of HP mods for something else, why does that only apply to Logis?) and then have the benefit of 2-3x the equipment slots? Seriously, people make the point, why get rid of: well flip it over - why not? Especially when we can just have all of the slot layouts balanced more effectively without accounting for how good/bad a sidearm is. The Logi role does not need a sidearm toting version. There is no good reason to keep it as much as there is no need to remove it, but what having it does is water down a very similar role that has been generally less used since about U1.1. Assaults are in a good place right now; Scouts are getting curtailed (sort of); Heavies are still dominant insofar as CQC is concerned; Logis are pretty solid - the suggestion that removing the Amarr sidearm will make the role rubbish or something is frankly ridiculous. The OP was the one complaining about nerfs to the cal scout and ADS (hard to think of 2 things peope, would be less sympathetic about.). More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm! Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid.** By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it. ...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid" (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.07 23:02:00 - [3] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Just or the record, I do have an alt (technically my main) that runs Gal and Min logi (and Min assault a bit). It was my original account and was the first thing I specced into. I only brought up the changes to Cal scouts and ADSs to show that even with huge changes (Am Logi losing a sidearm is nothing compared to the Cal and ADS), you can still be successful, though it may require a change in tactics/etc. But those are bad examples as both were clearly over performing. The Amarr logi has never been even the best logi suit, much less the best suit. The only argument you need to make a big change to someting that is OP is that it is OP. You need a much stronger one to make a change that is so clearly and overwhelmingly unpopular to the users of something. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.07 23:26:00 - [4] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm! Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it. OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module. Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations. John Demonsbane wrote: ...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid" A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles. A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary. Edit: As far as ADSs are concerned, I'd love to have a role as defined as a Logi. Currently we're toothless against even one AVer and simply less applicable than a normal DS,which are also pretty irrelevant. People complained about ADSs murdering infantry and decided to nerf everything about them but didn't actually allow them to function in any particular role. The change to AmLogi would not nerf it: it would redefine it in line with all of the other Logis. Dude, you can keep saying an AV weapon is viable without a sidearm but it will never be true. You're also mistaking the logi "role", which yes, is well defined (albeit still usurped by scouts like everything else atm) for logi suits. The suits are both slow and squishy, which is a terrible combination in this game. Add lackluster bonuses for 3 of them and the role may be well defined but my suit is seriously gimped. Does having one suit that's an outsider offend your OCD or something? One, idgaf about that. Two, fine, give the Cal logi a sidearm, take away a low slot, and make the deployable EQ based logis sidearm logis with 3 EQ at PRO while the others get 4. Now it's a 2x2 grid. Better? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:02:00 - [5] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: One, idgaf about that. Why should anyone GAF what AmLogis think then? I don't remember being asked about the ADS nerf, why should you get a say in your role. Frankly though, yes. If more than one had a sidearm, it would be a part of the role in some way, you would have two kinds of Logi. But answer this: why not give all Logis sidearms? What idgaf about is anyone's OCD as a basis for making an unpopular change. Second, and man I just don't get why you don't see the difference here, but nerfing something that was OP is not the same as making a change for change's sake! Rattati himself said there was no balance or perfomance issue involved with his initial idea to get rid of the sidearm. He just didnt like having to deal with an outlier. Thats it. Nothing was OP, nobody was complaining about it, he just decided it made one of his beloved spreadsheets asymmetrical. WTF is this suddenly the linchpin of slot adjustments to every single other suit in the game anyway? I mean, seriously, is getting rid of the Amarr logi sidearm the one piece we've been missing all along, that without it the Dust universe will be in balance and the Nerf/buff cycle will finally end, ushering in an era of battlefield variety where an endless number of fits (as long as they don't involve sidearms on logis, of course) are viable by players off all skill levels? As a follow up, is it really worth it? To make a change to a non-OP suit that is guaranteed to induce so much rage that it scuttled a wide-ranging plan of Rattatis? You can't just work it into the framework, with or without a cal logi with a sidearm to even out the spreadsheets? It's that offensive to you? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:07:00 - [6] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: This argument is circular: Why get rid of it? Why not get rid of it? You were the ones who suggested it. Oh, and ill just leave this here. There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:24:00 - [7] - Quote Oh yeah. Why not give all logis sidearms? That's a legitimate question. The short answer is that I don't see the need for any change to be made, for starters. I don't have problem with outliers that aren't OP, and believe that more variety > less. I propose it simply to appease, for lack of a better term, the people who do have a problem with that, or can't deal with asymmetry for whatever reason. Since I don't see the need for all logis to have a sidearm, and there is a clean division across the two alliances where one favors deployable EQ, another favors active EQ, so that's an obvious way to create symmetry without giving all logis sidearms. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:59:00 - [8] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use asidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways. The reason we keep bringing this up is because the repeated use of the analogy that ADS and Cal scouts (both overperforming) being nerfed is therefore a valid reason to "shove this down our throats" whether we like it or not. I'm getting bored of repeating myself, but there was quite clearly input from the community and the example Simply. Does. Not. Apply. Here. as the situation is completely different - adjustments to deal with overperforming things are always necessary whether the community likes it or not. (See: Rail Rifle) Kallas Hallytyr wrote: The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible. By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 03:04:00 - [9] - Quote Also redacted, lol. We suck at forums. (The godfather of tactical logistics)