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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2648
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Posted - 2014.12.06 00:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Basically, follow through with your slot change proposal shown in this spreadsheet, except:
- Remove Amarr Logi sidearm.
- Make equipment slot progression 3/4/4.
- Just throwing this out there, but perhaps a slight increase to logi base hp.
There, logistics should be more balanced and more viable at lower tiers as well as more consistent across races and with the other suits in general.
And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Nevyn Tazinas
Company of Marcher Lords
Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2014.12.06 00:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
1. Stop hating on Amarr specifically. ADS still have a massive kill ratio most games. So do any scouts.
2. Logi are the most obvious case for Tiericide. Make all levels of suit have the same number of slots (Probably should match current proto since that's what most balance has been aimed at). Fittings & base stats make the difference still.
Suddenly we deal with a lot less issues overall. |
Mordecai Snake
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
74
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Posted - 2014.12.06 00:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
- Give every Logi an equal 4/6/8 slot count
- Give Caldari a sidearm
- Give Cadari and Amarr 3 equipment slots at every tier
- Give Minmatar and Gallente 4 equipment slots at every tier
- Buff hp by 60
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2648
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Posted - 2014.12.06 01:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nevyn Tazinas wrote:1. Stop hating on Amarr specifically. ADS still have a massive kill ratio most games. So do any scouts.
2. Logi are the most obvious case for Tiericide. Make all levels of suit have the same number of slots (Probably should match current proto since that's what most balance has been aimed at). Fittings & base stats make the difference still.
Suddenly we deal with a lot less issues overall.
That's what I'm saying. Even with all these changes to ADSs and scouts, they're doing alright. Amarr (and the idea of including Cal) having a side arm on a Logi is as not fitting for the role as giving an assault 2-3 equipment slots. There really isn't a good reason for it other than, "it's nice and was like that when we started." Besides, with Rattati's changes and my suggestion, you're getting an extra low slot and 2 more equipment, which I think is a great trade off.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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hfderrtgvcd
1449
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Posted - 2014.12.06 02:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
If you remove the amarr logi's sidearm you have to refund the skill. Many players chose it purely becaues it was the only logi with a sidearm.
You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1348
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Posted - 2014.12.06 02:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
I am a pretty big supporter medium frames (assault and log) have the same high / low count by race. For the equipment layout I do agree that the Cal / Gal / Min should have 3/4/4 progression and honestly there is no harm in trading the equipment slot for a sidearm for the Amarr.
The reality is that the sidearm is a valid reason for someone to skill into the suit and it certainly does't make the suit OP or anything remotely like that. My personal vote is for the Cal logi to gain a 4th equipment slot and not a sidearm.
I think Rattati's idea is solid and would help in overall balance.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2014.12.06 05:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).
You do realize that the defining feature of the Amarr Logi has always been that it gets to tote a sidearm around, right?
And that by removing the sidearm, you kill, in no particular order, the following builds:
Swarm Logi
PLC Logi
Laser Logi
Sniper Logi
And you also pretty much force the Amarr Logi into running non-laser weapons, due to the draconian fitting requirements of lasers in general, and more particularly because the damage profile is so penalizing that it quite frankly requires a second weapon to actually be effective.
It also means that certain weapons are now significantly less viable on the Amarr Logi; Mass Drivers and Shotguns are the two that come to mind the most... though I fully admit that a Shotgun Amarr Logi is pretty bad by default given it's very slow speed and poor durability.
However, the point remains- there's a lot of weapons that are no longer viable on the Amarr Logi if you take the sidearm away. Quite frankly, if such a change went through... I would be quite angry, and would likely respec out of the Amarr Logi entirely.
As several posters have mentioned, there's quite a few people who chose to skill into the Amarr Logi purely because it had that sidearm slot.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3842
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Posted - 2014.12.06 06:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Logis do particularly well with Area Denial weapons, such as the Mass Driver.
Another fantastic (Amarr) area denial weapon is the Laser Rifle, which does ....well nothing up close. Which means a sidearm is an excelent idea. Trading an equipment for a sidearm is very reasonable.
Unless of course you have a valid argument to why it should be taken away?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2649
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Posted - 2014.12.06 07:03:00 -
[9] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:You do realize that the defining feature of the Amarr Logi has always been that it gets to tote a sidearm around, right?
You do realize that a defining feature of the every other Logi has always been that they forgo a sidearm, right? There's no other suit in the game that is such an outlier in its class. And added offensive capability directly goes against its role as a logi. It's like giving an equipment slot to a heavy.
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:
And that by removing the sidearm, you kill, in no particular order, the following builds:
Swarm Logi
PLC Logi
Laser Logi
Sniper Logi
Swarms are still usable with a squad and different tactics. Lol PLC on any serious suit. Reduction of offensive capability is exactly what being a logi means. Snipers just hide in the redline (or are pretty much insta-killed regardless).
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:
And you also pretty much force the Amarr Logi into running non-laser weapons, due to the draconian fitting requirements of lasers in general, and more particularly because the damage profile is so penalizing that it quite frankly requires a second weapon to actually be effective.
It also means that certain weapons are now significantly less viable on the Amarr Logi; Mass Drivers and Shotguns are the two that come to mind the most... though I fully admit that a Shotgun Amarr Logi is pretty bad by default given it's very slow speed and poor durability.
Lasers don't have that bad of fitting, at least to the point of making your suit unusable. They're also good on their own except for armor heavies and heavily tanked armor meds.
But again, the focus of the logi isn't on offenses but on support, and with theses changes and suggestions, the Amarr logi moves away from being offensive and more towards support (more lows for more ehp, more slots).
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:
However, the point remains- there's a lot of weapons that are no longer viable on the Amarr Logi if you take the sidearm away. Quite frankly, if such a change went through... I would be quite angry, and would likely respec out of the Amarr Logi entirely.
As several posters have mentioned, there's quite a few people who chose to skill into the Amarr Logi purely because it had that sidearm slot.
I was also quite upset when they removed the scan precision bonus from my Cal scout. It's was literally the only reason I specced into it (I used so many scan mods, none of my suits ever went over 400ehp). But I rolled with it and adapted my play style and made it through alright.
I'd be all for giving a partial respec (I mean, CCP already allows you to buy one, I think they'd be more liberal with handing out the free ones).
This is far from a suit-breaking change. Sure, you may need to rely on your teammates a bit more and not be as aggressive, but every other logi manages it so it's not impossible.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2649
|
Posted - 2014.12.06 07:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Logis do particularly well with Area Denial weapons, such as the Mass Driver.
Another fantastic (Amarr) area denial weapon is the Laser Rifle, which does ....well nothing up close. Which means a sidearm is an excelent idea. Trading an equipment for a sidearm is very reasonable.
Unless of course you have a valid argument to why it should be taken away?
To be in line with every other logi just like every other suit is in line with its class.
To finally bring some sensible slot progression to logis instead of being hung up on this 'beloved' anomaly.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
204
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Posted - 2014.12.07 06:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Swarms are still usable with a squad and different tactics. Lol PLC on any serious suit. Reduction of offensive capability is exactly what being a logi means. Snipers just hide in the redline (or are pretty much insta-killed regardless).
So in other words, your rebuttal is that suicidal Logi-swarming is perfectly acceptable and viable because "squads" and "tactics", the PLC is a "lolgun", and that snipers hide in the redline or are instagibbed anyways.
I'll allow snipers generally being unable to defend themselves- a sidearm is almost never the equal of a light weapon unless you already outclassed your opposition anyways.
But the whole "suicidal swarms" thing... yeah, no. The Amarr Logi is really the only logi that can viably run swarms. For any other Logi suit it's basically saying to enemy infantry "hey, I'm a free kill! COME AND GET A FREE KILL!!"
And your derision of the PLC is unwarranted- in skilled hands it's quite capable, and honestly I consider it to be one of the better support-oriented weapons in the game.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Lasers don't have that bad of fitting, at least to the point of making your suit unusable. They're also good on their own except for armor heavies and heavily tanked armor meds.
Laser Rifles do not have draconian fittings. They are, however, similar to swarms in that someone who gets in your face has basically gotten a free kill- while it's somewhat possible to use the LR at less than 20 meters with some effectiveness, it's going to come down to you either outclassing your opposition anyways, at which point they are bad and you are not, OR it will come down to them being distracted by your teammates.
Relying on your teammates to keep you alive only works if you can actually communicate with them, and even then it's a 50/50 chance. Relying on the enemy to be incompetent is an excellent way to never win anything.
Scrambler Rifles however, have draconian fitting requirements, and quite frankly the Assault Scrambler Rifle is just plain bad right now, and the overheat limitation of the traditional Scrambler makes it undesirable to use without a secondary weapon.
Moreover, laser damage is incredibly undesirable on its own, due to the penalized armor damage. This is especially the case at present due to the armor-dominated meta.
A LR-Logi is borderline suicidal on the non-Amarr Logis. A MD-Logi isn't always the best platform for the weapon, but it's very possible to make it work- MD Logis at one time were a staple squad element. The LR Logi has never been such, due primarily to the lack of a sidearm.
Vulpses Dolosus wrote:But again, the focus of the logi isn't on offenses but on support, and with theses changes and suggestions, the Amarr logi moves away from being offensive and more towards support (more lows for more ehp, more slots).
There is such a thing as "offensive support", wherein one provides cover/suppression fire for friendly team-/squad-mates. The LR and MD- and to a lesser extent the PLC- excel at this role. In the case of the MD, it's possible to make it work. In the case of the PLC, it's basically a case of "you must be godly with the PLC to be good with this combination", while the LR is basically suicidal on non-Amarr Logi suits.
I would like to be able to still build viable LR and PLC fits using the Amarr Logi. Losing that would be very displeasing to me.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:I'd be all for giving a partial respec (I mean, CCP already allows you to buy one, I think they'd be more liberal with handing out the free ones).
This is far from a suit-breaking change. Sure, you may need to rely on your teammates a bit more and not be as aggressive, but every other logi manages it so it's not impossible.
Quite frankly I consider all the logis to be ass right now, and that I also trust the Logi CPM (you know, that guy by the name of "Cross Atu") to be much more in tune with what the Logi community wants.
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:You do realize that a defining feature of the every other Logi has always been that they forgo a sidearm, right? There's no other suit in the game that is such an outlier in its class. And added offensive capability directly goes against its role as a logi. It's like giving an equipment slot to a heavy.
And it's also historically the case that the HP loss of the Logi suit compared to the Assault was minimal. At one time, Assaults even had two equipment slots at proto level. There was even a time that Assaults had fewer module slots than Logis.
At this point I contend that we could probably give all the logis a sidearm slot and not really change around their fittings (aside from the ridiculous CPU shortage of the CalLogi and the PG shortage of the AmLogi) and Assaults would still be preferred by dedicated slayers- sure, you can get more versatility out of the Logi, but the durability, weaponry, and mobility advantages of an Assault are incredibly potent and noticeable.
With that said, given that the current bonuses of the Logis incentivize to different styles of play- the active, in-hand equips (Gal/Min) and deployables (Am/Cal), I would say that the Caldari Logi is the best candidate for additional expansion of the Logis into more "offensive" support roles, such as AV or suppression fire with, say, a LR.
The Amarr Logi already does something cool and unique- it can viably and effectively run AV weapons, as well as LRs, with excellent results. While the damage and reload bonuses of the Commandos are more useful for AV, and the Amarr Assault heat bonus makes it the premier LR platform, it's nice to have an option that can compromise on some degree of firepower in exchange for greater support utility.
Exchanging an equipment slot in order to gain a sidearm slot is, IMO, well worth it.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1369
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Posted - 2014.12.07 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Basically, follow through with your slot change proposal shown in this spreadsheet, except:
- Remove Amarr Logi sidearm.
- Make equipment slot progression 3/4/4.
- Just throwing this out there, but perhaps a slight increase to logi base hp.
There, logistics should be more balanced and more viable at lower tiers as well as more consistent across races and with the other suits in general. And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).
No to the Amarr logistics sidearm removal.
Amarr logistics' description says specifically 'it can deal out trauma'.
Which means it's a battle oriented logistics suit.
Otherwise it would just say durable (which it does,but is a lie).
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4718
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Posted - 2014.12.07 15:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just stop with the Amarr logi sidearm removal, we aren't going to let it happen :\
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1072
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Posted - 2014.12.07 19:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.
With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.
Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2661
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Posted - 2014.12.07 19:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.
With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.
Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.
Couldn't have said it better.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
208
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Posted - 2014.12.07 20:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
[...]
[Emphasis mine]
I contend that the reason there are no complaints is simply because few to no Logis actually run Swarms, the PLC, or the LR on their suits. Obviously there was the notable exception of Ghazbaran running a GalLogi+PLC combo, but I'd say he's the exception that rather proves the rule- he invested the time and SP to have incredible ability with the PLC that he was able to adequately defend himself with just it.
With the PLC, the argument almost holds water. With Swarms, it is literally impossible for a Logi to fight back unless they have godly skills with grenades or are very good at punching things to death. Both options are statistically unlikely- not only in occurrence but also in success of such a tactic.
The LR suffers from a similar problem- while fantastically effective against infantry at long range (minimum of 50+ meters), it is incredibly dicey to try and use up close when someone's in your face. In fact, as I elaborated above, the LR's viability at close range more-or-less relies upon your enemy to be incompetent.
Only the stupid and foolish rely on enemy incompetence to win.
Moreover, I also contend that the Assault is not some "jack-of-all-trades" platform that should be used if you want a secondary weapon with Swarms/PLC/LR. Assaults are supposedly intended to be the preferred slayer suit... so why should they be the preferred choice for AV/support fire weapons with a defensive armament?
If anything, your argument could have been compelling if you'd approached it from the position that Commandos are supposed to be fire support, while Assaults slay everything and Logis provide equipment-oriented support.
But of course, you'd also probably disagree with more offensively-oriented equipment items.
Finally, I would find it perfectly acceptable for the Caldari Logi to be made the shield analogue of the Amarr Logi. If you're wondering "why CalLogi" then the answer is simple: both the Am/Cal logi suits are focused on deployable equipment bonuses. Which then results in such a logi potentially having "more time on their hands" that they can then spend shooting stuff.
Obviously there's some (stupid) perception that logis are not "combat suits", so they shouldn't be busy slaying stuff. So why not give the Amarr/Caldari Logis ways in which they can support their teams offensively that aren't just "kill other players".
Why shouldn't their be a Logi suit with a sidearm that can function as AV in a non-suicidal fashion? It certainly prevents said Logi from having masses of kills, doesn't it?
Because quite frankly this whole proposal reeks of the old hysteria about slayer logis. If you cannot understand why slayer logis simply cannot become a thing again, then I recommend that you not make comments about Logi balance at all.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Nocturnal Soul
Primordial Threat
4723
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Posted - 2014.12.07 20:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.
With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.
Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.
Regain speeds, Damage output, Capturing an Objective are all assault aspects yet the Scout, Commando, and Heavy do these things better. The Amarr logi having a side does not in anyway possible step of the assault class toes. What the assault needs is better ewar and a faster regain mainly the regain. And what the logistics need is proper slot scaling(without the removal of the Amarr side) cpu & pg adjustments with good precision.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
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Posted - 2014.12.07 21:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
If the Amarr logi losing it's sidearm isn't the end of the world, then please explain how it keeping it is.
To keep reversing your senseless argument, please also explain why it is such a big problem for it to have one other than "derp it's not a combat suit" or "they nerfed my (broken and obviously OP, btw) cal scout so too bad"
I would just once like to have someone explain how it's literally impossible to balance logi suits and redo the slots without removing it. (which is the logical endpoint of your argument, tbh)
Edit: and it's abso-freaking-lately a suit breaking change. A huge amount of the suits I was building in preparation for the BW changes would be useless without a sidearm.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1370
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.
With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.
Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.
>Assault QQ
>OPs scout QQ
Oh,now i get it.
Someone was playing in an assault/scout suit,thought they would have an easy logistics kill,but were owned because the logistics had a sidearm.(probably multiple times)
So,that said assault/scout user came to the forums and made a thread to "help logistics",when all logistics users can clearly see it's just aimed at removing the Amarr logistics sidearm.
Assaults have no right to QQ.
They have higher speed and 160 extra eHP with 8-9 slots,they need/deserve 0 other buffs.
Try doing your job in a 300 eHP total suit with LESS speed (Amarr logistics),then you'll have valid QQ.
Any assault QQ is just spoiled brats crying for more at this point.
Scouts have no right to QQ.
You get high speed and shield regen in exchange for your low eHP,and you get eWAR which helps you survive even better!
Try using a 240-300 eHP suit thats slow and bad at eWAR.(any logistics)
Any scout QQ are just players seeing their "i win" button being brought down to reasonable levels.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1079
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Um, how am I an Assault/Scout QQer?!? I run Logi, I love Logi-ing. Having a sidearm is not a part of the Logi role. I run Assault, Logi, Sentinel, Commando and vehicles: I skilled out of scouts because of ridiculous advantages making them uninteresting.
So AmLogis. Why do they need a sidearm? To not be ****** when they run swarms? Why shouldn't they get ****** up when running a Swarm or other support type weapon? That is the point of an Assault: you're tougher and more versatile in a combat situation but don't have the breadth of equipment options/equipment support. What is the point of running an Assault with Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever, when you can run that Logi who can have EHP to rival it (300 total? Sure, you've just sacrificed a bunch of HP mods for something else, why does that only apply to Logis?) and then have the benefit of 2-3x the equipment slots?
Seriously, people make the point, why get rid of: well flip it over - why not? Especially when we can just have all of the slot layouts balanced more effectively without accounting for how good/bad a sidearm is. The Logi role does not need a sidearm toting version.
There is no good reason to keep it as much as there is no need to remove it, but what having it does is water down a very similar role that has been generally less used since about U1.1. Assaults are in a good place right now; Scouts are getting curtailed (sort of); Heavies are still dominant insofar as CQC is concerned; Logis are pretty solid - the suggestion that removing the Amarr sidearm will make the role rubbish or something is frankly ridiculous.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Um, how am I an Assault/Scout QQer?!? I run Logi, I love Logi-ing. Having a sidearm is not a part of the Logi role. I run Assault, Logi, Sentinel, Commando and vehicles: I skilled out of scouts because of ridiculous advantages making them uninteresting.
So AmLogis. Why do they need a sidearm? To not be ****** when they run swarms? Why shouldn't they get ****** up when running a Swarm or other support type weapon? That is the point of an Assault: you're tougher and more versatile in a combat situation but don't have the breadth of equipment options/equipment support. What is the point of running an Assault with Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever, when you can run that Logi who can have EHP to rival it (300 total? Sure, you've just sacrificed a bunch of HP mods for something else, why does that only apply to Logis?) and then have the benefit of 2-3x the equipment slots?
Seriously, people make the point, why get rid of: well flip it over - why not? Especially when we can just have all of the slot layouts balanced more effectively without accounting for how good/bad a sidearm is. The Logi role does not need a sidearm toting version.
There is no good reason to keep it as much as there is no need to remove it, but what having it does is water down a very similar role that has been generally less used since about U1.1. Assaults are in a good place right now; Scouts are getting curtailed (sort of); Heavies are still dominant insofar as CQC is concerned; Logis are pretty solid - the suggestion that removing the Amarr sidearm will make the role rubbish or something is frankly ridiculous.
The OP was the one complaining about nerfs to the cal scout and ADS (hard to think of 2 things peope, would be less sympathetic about.).
More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!
Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it.
...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid"
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
103
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 22:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
While I could live with loosing my side-arm, I'd fight against it every step of the way, as is anyone's right. As for why it makes sense for the Amarr to have a sidearm (this argument relies on Caldari getting either a sidearm or something similar to better provide support for it): Eve informs dust Design. Space-side there are logistics cruisers for each of the races, just as there are ground-side. The difference has to do when looking at how each of them function, with Caldari and Amarr sharing bonus types (one of their bonuses is to repairing racial buffer, and the other is to capacitor transfer), while Minmatar and Gallente share their bonus types (Racial buffer and Tracking Computers). Now these ships bonuses focus around their racial philosophies is a very interesting way: Caldari and Amarr rely on their fellow logistics to make them effective and repairing while boasting a higher defense (Amarr and Caldari are both the highly resistant buffer in the crunch, and share a racial view of belonging to a group larger than themselves), while Minmatar and Gallente logistics sacrifice durability for mobility, and loose the force-multiplier of capacitor transfer for improving their allies damage application (along with the ability to run their reps cap-stable solo, which I think exemplifies their more personal freedom oriented philosophies).
While the logistics role doesn't need a side-arm to function, I think it does add a nice flavor to the Amarr logistics suit as-is, and should be added to the Caldari Suit. However, I acknowledge that Eve-Design does not dictate dust design, and would be happy with another bonus or feature to differentiate Caldari and Amarr logistics from the Minmatar and Gallente versions (Please note: This is not me saying that the any of the groups is better than the other, but that they should be performing variations on the theme of Logistics Support).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2663
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 22:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Just or the record, I do have an alt (technically my main) that runs Gal and Min logi (and Min assault a bit). It was my original account and was the first thing I specced into.
I only brought up the changes to Cal scouts and ADSs to show that even with huge changes (Am Logi losing a sidearm is nothing compared to the Cal and ADS), you can still be successful, though it may require a change in tactics/etc.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Just or the record, I do have an alt (technically my main) that runs Gal and Min logi (and Min assault a bit). It was my original account and was the first thing I specced into.
I only brought up the changes to Cal scouts and ADSs to show that even with huge changes (Am Logi losing a sidearm is nothing compared to the Cal and ADS), you can still be successful, though it may require a change in tactics/etc.
But those are bad examples as both were clearly over performing. The Amarr logi has never been even the best logi suit, much less the best suit.
The only argument you need to make a big change to someting that is OP is that it is OP. You need a much stronger one to make a change that is so clearly and overwhelmingly unpopular to the users of something.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1079
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!
Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it.
OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module.
Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations.
John Demonsbane wrote:...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid"
A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles.
A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2664
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
The main point I'm making is this:
All logi suits are in a bad place (perhaps Min the least). Rattati had a decent plan in place to help fix them, but everyone lost their minds over every little thing, so it was scrapped.
I want Rattati to carry through with these with his patented "force-down-your-throat" technique (see Cal scout and ADS changes), since it's better to get these changes and have people QQ about them than not have them. Yes it's sad that some uses of the suit wouldn't carry over, but overall I see every suit benefiting greatly in one way or another. I would hope they would refund the SP from the Amarr logi if you were used to more of an assault suit.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!
Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it. OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module. Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations. John Demonsbane wrote:...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid" A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles. A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary. Edit: As far as ADSs are concerned, I'd love to have a role as defined as a Logi. Currently we're toothless against even one AVer and simply less applicable than a normal DS,which are also pretty irrelevant. People complained about ADSs murdering infantry and decided to nerf everything about them but didn't actually allow them to function in any particular role. The change to AmLogi would not nerf it: it would redefine it in line with all of the other Logis.
Dude, you can keep saying an AV weapon is viable without a sidearm but it will never be true.
You're also mistaking the logi "role", which yes, is well defined (albeit still usurped by scouts like everything else atm) for logi suits. The suits are both slow and squishy, which is a terrible combination in this game.
Add lackluster bonuses for 3 of them and the role may be well defined but my suit is seriously gimped.
Does having one suit that's an outsider offend your OCD or something? One, idgaf about that. Two, fine, give the Cal logi a sidearm, take away a low slot, and make the deployable EQ based logis sidearm logis with 3 EQ at PRO while the others get 4.
Now it's a 2x2 grid. Better?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
|
Posted - 2014.12.07 23:36:00 -
[28] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:One, idgaf about that.
Why should anyone GAF what AmLogis think then? I don't remember being asked about the ADS nerf, why should you get a say in your role.
Frankly though, yes. If more than one had a sidearm, it would be a part of the role in some way, you would have two kinds of Logi. But answer this: why not give all Logis sidearms?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:John Demonsbane wrote:One, idgaf about that. Why should anyone GAF what AmLogis think then? I don't remember being asked about the ADS nerf, why should you get a say in your role. Frankly though, yes. If more than one had a sidearm, it would be a part of the role in some way, you would have two kinds of Logi. But answer this: why not give all Logis sidearms?
What idgaf about is anyone's OCD as a basis for making an unpopular change.
Second, and man I just don't get why you don't see the difference here, but nerfing something that was OP is not the same as making a change for change's sake!
Rattati himself said there was no balance or perfomance issue involved with his initial idea to get rid of the sidearm. He just didnt like having to deal with an outlier. Thats it. Nothing was OP, nobody was complaining about it, he just decided it made one of his beloved spreadsheets asymmetrical.
WTF is this suddenly the linchpin of slot adjustments to every single other suit in the game anyway? I mean, seriously, is getting rid of the Amarr logi sidearm the one piece we've been missing all along, that without it the Dust universe will be in balance and the Nerf/buff cycle will finally end, ushering in an era of battlefield variety where an endless number of fits (as long as they don't involve sidearms on logis, of course) are viable by players off all skill levels?
As a follow up, is it really worth it? To make a change to a non-OP suit that is guaranteed to induce so much rage that it scuttled a wide-ranging plan of Rattatis? You can't just work it into the framework, with or without a cal logi with a sidearm to even out the spreadsheets? It's that offensive to you?
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
This argument is circular:
Why get rid of it?
Why not get rid of it?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:This argument is circular:
Why get rid of it?
Why not get rid of it?
You were the ones who suggested it.
Oh, and ill just leave this here.
There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:This argument is circular:
Why get rid of it?
Why not get rid of it? You were the ones who suggested it.
Indeed. It was suggested that all Logis gain the same number of modules/equipment slots. Apparently the AmLogi is awful without the sidearm, according to every naysayer in this thread.
The AmLogi will lose some fits and gain others. It will lose some random suits that are done by other suits (Assaults, Commandos and Scouts) and gain some additional resilience and/or EWar flexibility. How this is a nerf and not a sidegrade I don't understand. It's not a requirement for change, but the only argument I've seen to keep it is because it keeps some fits that you like.
Well guess what, I liked some of my ADS fits with passive resistance modules. Or what about the MinAslt fits with 5 highs? There are numerous changes that have been made that have rendered some fits unusable while being healthy for the game or role.
John Demonsbane wrote:Oh, and ill just leave this here.There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy.
The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Oh yeah. Why not give all logis sidearms? That's a legitimate question. The short answer is that I don't see the need for any change to be made, for starters. I don't have problem with outliers that aren't OP, and believe that more variety > less.
I propose it simply to appease, for lack of a better term, the people who do have a problem with that, or can't deal with asymmetry for whatever reason. Since I don't see the need for all logis to have a sidearm, and there is a clean division across the two alliances where one favors deployable EQ, another favors active EQ, so that's an obvious way to create symmetry without giving all logis sidearms.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
105
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:
The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue.
What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.'
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits?
I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways.
The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
105
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.'
You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency?
I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits?
But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
106
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:42:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits? But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not?
As my post stated: I acknowledge that Eve informs DUST design, it does not dictate it....and I think that the rep-tool could use some buffing (and we could use an infantry portable remote shield booster).
as for why not give all Logis sidearms? I don't know why? Why shouldn't the Amarr be the only one with a sidearm? Why shouldn't the Caldari and Amarr have sidearms? Why the hell not? An argument phrased in this manner doesn't do anything constructive, and just leads to a circular argument as demonstrated above?
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
|
Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1081
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
So essentially, I see four things:
Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role.
No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role.
Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.)
Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.)
Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
106
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 00:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:So essentially, I see four things:
Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role.
No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role.
Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.)
Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.)
Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier.
Now, that is a statement I can agree with, and I agree I would like to see the sidearm eliminated as an outlier.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
|
|
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Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2666
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 01:53:00 -
[41] - Quote
Great discussion, both of you.
To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes).
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
107
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Great discussion, both of you.
To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes).
There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
|
Vulpes Dolosus
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
2666
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Great discussion, both of you.
To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics
The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed.
This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input.
Dust is there! I was real!
Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
107
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Vulpes Dolosus wrote:Great discussion, both of you.
To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed. This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input.
There where a lot of posts in the thread on the power of range amps (since the proposed numbers spreadsheet clearly showed them being one of the most powerful EWAR mods). So in response to the community's feedback those changes where made.
Caldari Scout and ADS changes where made on both community feedback and most importantly data...(which we don't have access to...yet).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 02:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use asidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same.
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways.
The reason we keep bringing this up is because the repeated use of the analogy that ADS and Cal scouts (both overperforming) being nerfed is therefore a valid reason to "shove this down our throats" whether we like it or not. I'm getting bored of repeating myself, but there was quite clearly input from the community and the example Simply. Does. Not. Apply. Here. as the situation is completely different - adjustments to deal with overperforming things are always necessary whether the community likes it or not. (See: Rail Rifle)
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible.
By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
107
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Posted - 2014.12.08 03:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Redacted, my mistake
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
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John Demonsbane
Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics
4855
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Posted - 2014.12.08 03:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
Also redacted, lol. We suck at forums.
(The godfather of tactical logistics)
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1082
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Posted - 2014.12.08 05:24:00 -
[48] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same.
By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low.
These points reek of special snowflake syndrome. There is no reason that another suit in the same role shouldn't be able to fit similarly (ie, with a sidearm) because there is no reasonable explanation for the Amarr to be the only one with a sidearm.
Either make it all, or make it none. The AmLogi sidearm is incongruous and doesn't fit the Logi role: either the role needs to morph or the AmLogi does, essentially.
As for inapplicability of CCP-fiat changes: seriously, pilot feedback was flat out ignored and more than four unique changes were made to AV/ADS balance in a single pass. Whether the ADS overperformed (according to the woefully inadequate KDR measurement Rattati spoke about) or not (if you considered that by Judge's analysis an ADS needed a 50 KDR to run a positive role, based on ISK and SP, as well as other stuff) the changes were done to try to balance the game and the role, not to keep one aspect of the community happy.
And at the end of the day, this change would, quite frankly, not be a nerf, it would be a modification of operation. Keeping 'unique fits' is pandering to sentimentality: you wanting to keep something because you like it and is no more a valid argument than the ADS one.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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