DUST Search - @Rattati: Logi Slot Layouts

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Great discussion, both of you.

To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes).

There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics

The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed.

This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input.

Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.


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Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 103	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:53:00 - [1] - Quote While I could live with loosing my side-arm, I'd fight against it every step of the way, as is anyone's right. As for why it makes sense for the Amarr to have a sidearm (this argument relies on Caldari getting either a sidearm or something similar to better provide support for it): Eve informs dust Design. Space-side there are logistics cruisers for each of the races, just as there are ground-side. The difference has to do when looking at how each of them function, with Caldari and Amarr sharing bonus types (one of their bonuses is to repairing racial buffer, and the other is to capacitor transfer), while Minmatar and Gallente share their bonus types (Racial buffer and Tracking Computers). Now these ships bonuses focus around their racial philosophies is a very interesting way: Caldari and Amarr rely on their fellow logistics to make them effective and repairing while boasting a higher defense (Amarr and Caldari are both the highly resistant buffer in the crunch, and share a racial view of belonging to a group larger than themselves), while Minmatar and Gallente logistics sacrifice durability for mobility, and loose the force-multiplier of capacitor transfer for improving their allies damage application (along with the ability to run their reps cap-stable solo, which I think exemplifies their more personal freedom oriented philosophies). While the logistics role doesn't need a side-arm to function, I think it does add a nice flavor to the Amarr logistics suit as-is, and should be added to the Caldari Suit. However, I acknowledge that Eve-Design does not dictate dust design, and would be happy with another bonus or feature to differentiate Caldari and Amarr logistics from the Minmatar and Gallente versions (Please note: This is not me saying that the any of the groups is better than the other, but that they should be performing variations on the theme of Logistics Support). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 105	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:28:00 - [2] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue. What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 105	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:33:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 106	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:42:00 - [4] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits? But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not? As my post stated: I acknowledge that Eve informs DUST design, it does not dictate it....and I think that the rep-tool could use some buffing (and we could use an infantry portable remote shield booster). as for why not give all Logis sidearms? I don't know why? Why shouldn't the Amarr be the only one with a sidearm? Why shouldn't the Caldari and Amarr have sidearms? Why the hell not? An argument phrased in this manner doesn't do anything constructive, and just leads to a circular argument as demonstrated above? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 106	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:48:00 - [5] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: So essentially, I see four things: Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role. No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role. Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.) Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.) Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier. Now, that is a statement I can agree with, and I agree I would like to see the sidearm eliminated as an outlier. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:19:00 - [6] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:36:00 - [7] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed. This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input. There where a lot of posts in the thread on the power of range amps (since the proposed numbers spreadsheet clearly showed them being one of the most powerful EWAR mods). So in response to the community's feedback those changes where made. Caldari Scout and ADS changes where made on both community feedback and most importantly data...(which we don't have access to...yet). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 03:01:00 - [8] - Quote Redacted, my mistake Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.