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Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
66
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Posted - 2014.11.25 22:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Lynn Beck wrote:Finn Colman wrote: Hmm.. the implied TTK sounds a lot more like my Min scout with 176 than a Commando with, how much health? This situational evidence also shows that the ScR user is in an advantageous position anyway, and so suggesting that you want them to be nerfed for fighting from a position that gives you a disadvantage.
I will say again, I rarely ever see anything but Gal and Cal suits and weapons. Even Minmatar outnumbers the number of Amarr I see. Of course, I don't see everything, but neither do you.
I was behind a rock, firing at a guy in the open, he found a teeny divot in the terrain and 3 shot me, how is that "he had better positioning"? Also when if ever does an Amarr Assault or Calscout SCR user ever die? Most of the time it's just user error, where they didn't strafe right or they missed 2 too many shots. In my MinAssault i lose to Galscouts even when he's sitting perfectly still firing shotgun rounds at me. Also I'm pretty sure the fact that "the most OP weapon/class in the game"(sentinel/HMG) getting beat by a SCR is evidence enough that it itself is ridiculously OP and needs toning down. Ah... You see this is why it is important to give context. He still had a distance advantage. Still, I feel that it is necessary to question how much health your Commando has, as it still takes three hits from an ScR to take down my less than base HP Min Scout, then again it would probably turn to one hit if the charged first shot was a head shot.
Referring to my personal experience again, I almost never see an ScR anywhere but the market.
The little Min with the little voice.
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
235
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Amarr assault is not OP, it's Scrambler Rifles that are. Lasers are also kind of OP but can be countered by moving in close, and take a bit more concentration to use than Scramblers (With a Scrambler you just have to try to avoid overheating, with a Laser you have to get as close to overheating as possible before you stop firing). The amount of damage a Scrambler can do with a charged shot is insane, even half charge it gains way too much damage.
Finn Colman wrote: Referring to my personal experience again, I almost never see an ScR anywhere but the market.
Scrambler Rifle is one of the most popular weapons right now, you play with your eyes closed?
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15048
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
VikingKong iBUN wrote:Amarr assault is not OP, it's Scrambler Rifles that are. Lasers are also kind of OP but can be countered by moving in close, and take a bit more concentration to use than Scramblers (With a Scrambler you just have to try to avoid overheating, with a Laser you have to get as close to overheating as possible before you stop firing). The amount of damage a Scrambler can do with a charged shot is insane, even half charge it gains way too much damage. Finn Colman wrote: Referring to my personal experience again, I almost never see an ScR anywhere but the market.
Scrambler Rifle is one of the most popular weapons right now, you play with your eyes closed?
250 unmodified Damage per round for the cost of roughly 10 standard shots (amounting to something akin to 715 total damage)
230 damage roughly vs armour targets 345 vs shielded targets..... assuming my maths isn't horribly flawed.
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
675
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Posted - 2014.11.25 23:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
VikingKong iBUN wrote:Finn Colman wrote: Referring to my personal experience again, I almost never see an ScR anywhere but the market.
Scrambler Rifle is one of the most popular weapons right now, you play with your eyes closed?
Needn't play the guessing game! The data you need is here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php
Let's have a look at Light Weapons ... Oh my, Mr Breach! Nothing else quite compares. The ScR? It isn't even on the map!
But OP contends that AM Assault is OP? If it isn't the ScR, could it be King HP?
Let's have a look at Low Slot Modules ... King HP, for the win! 99.9%. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
153
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Posted - 2014.11.26 00:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Agreed on all counts. In my admittedly simple and biased mind, MN/CA Sentinels aren't broken because (1) they aren't spammed in PC and (2) they go down quickly when hit from behind by their supposed CQC counters (knives, shotguns, flux+acr, etc) and (3) they can be effectively engaged at range as their HP reserves are typically less ridiculous than those of GA/AM.
...I would actually offer the counter-argument that due to the entrenched meta of "HP>everything else" among PC groups, that the AM/GA sentinels are spammed because they have an on-paper survival benefit. The other side of that is that the CA/MN sentinels aren't able to benefit nearly as well from rep logis, unlike the AM/GA suits.
I'd also comment that the AM/GA sentinels are arguably worse of in a long-range fight, as if they're running a MAXIMUM BRICK fit then they're slower than dirt and will be gunned down with complete contempt, since, you know, they can't make it into cover fast enough.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Sprint speed isn't the problem, nor is it a limiting factor to a defender. The problem is how ably these fortresses respond when flanked. If I intend to move a red blob, in most cases, I must use a blue blob. The maximum land speed of either blob is of little consequence thanks to modern transportation methods.
So in other words, the problem is that the heavy suit's primary disadvantage (on-foot mobility) is completely negated by the role that it has been pigeonholed into.
Glad we basically understand each other here, then.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Retired my Core Locus Grenades after observing an Amarr Sentinel's remaining HP after being hit with two back-to-back. Perhaps my prototype anti-armor grenades were bugged, but I positively hit him directly with both and what followed was positively not shredding. But while we're on the topic, imagine how fast blobs would dissipate if Sentinel resistance were inverted such that Locus Grenades did bonus damage rather than giggle damage!
I contend that if the splash damage resistance was removed from sentinel suits people would stop using them alltogether because they would be too easy to kill. There's a reason that for a very long time in DUST's history it was basically an "I-Win" button to carry locus nades and then use them against a heavy.
There's also the slight issue that the engine would probably require significant overhaul to do that... oh, yeah, and did I mention that it would be stupid?
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Freely defer to the Heavy Community on how to fix insta-spin-and-win.
I'm pretty sure that that's what my point boiled down to... that your spool idea was shortly considered before being universally rejected by said community.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:We need not play the guessing game, gentlmen! The data we need is here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.phpLet's have a look at those Light Weapons ... Mr Breach! Nothing else quite compares. That nasty ScR? It isn't even on the map! But OP contends that AM Assault is OP. If it isn't his ScR, could it be his King HP? Let's have a look at Low Slot Modules ... Bricks for the win! A staggering 99.9%!
The Amarr Assault has the best HP potential of the assault suits because the AmSalt is the slowest... which means it's more likely to get shot in the face substantially more, on account of being limited to waddling into cover.
As an aside, I would argue that the whole "Bricks>everything else" issue has more to do with the fact that, to a limited degree, a brick is better than most other options. Mostly because scouts can do speed/EWAR tank better than any medframe user can even dream of. Doesn't help either that medframe EWAR is utter ass right now, either.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15054
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Posted - 2014.11.26 01:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:We need not play the guessing game, gentlemen! The data we need is here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.phpLet's have a look at those Light Weapons ... Mr Breach! Nothing else quite compares. That nasty ScR? It isn't even on the map! But OP contends that AM Assault is OP. If it isn't his ScR, could it be his King HP!? Let's have a look at Low Slot Modules ... Bricks for the win! A staggering 99.9%!
Personally I don't mind EHP reductions to the Amarr Assault..... to be quite frank the reason most people stack plates is a percieved lack of low slot utility modules. Additionally the Amarr are not HP stacker they do not use more or less plates than the Gallente, Amarr tend to get bonuses to armour resistances.
Assault require almost crippling levels of modules to compete EWAR wise.
I could see myself fitting a Kin Cat or a Hack Module.....but what would really be better is Resistance Plating modules so I could tailor my assault suit properly.
E.G-
1x Complex Armour Plate 1x Complex Reactive Armour Plate 1x Complex Armour Reppers 1x Anti Explosive Armour Screening [-15% damage from explosive sources] 1x Kinetic Catalyzer
I said, "Empress, I do this, I thought that you knew this.
Can't stand non-believers and honest, the truth is...
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
676
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Posted - 2014.11.26 01:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
@ Victor Moody Stahl
It would appear that uou and I are dangerously close to becoming like-minded. This doesn't bode well for, good sir, for I am but a simple man :-)
- Code Breakers - Kin Cats - Card Regs - Profile Dampeners - Range Extenders - PG Upgrades - CPU Upgrades - Shield Regulators
^ Add all these up. Multiply by 55. Then you get close to the least popular Brick Module.
How to Fix
* Add more drawbacks to Brick Modules (gotta touch this). * Make EWAR more meaningful to MedFrames. * Buff KinCats, CardRegs and Shield Regulators. * Relocate Code Breakers and PG Upgrades to High Slot. |
Finn Colman
Immortal Guides
66
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Posted - 2014.11.26 01:26:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:- Code Breakers - Kin Cats - Card Regs - Profile Dampeners - Range Extenders - PG Upgrades - CPU Upgrades - Shield Regulators
^ Add all these up. Multiply by 55. Then you get close to the least popular Brick Module.
How to Fix
* Add more drawbacks to Brick Modules (gotta touch this). * Make EWAR more meaningful to MedFrames. * Buff KinCats, CardRegs and Shield Regulators. * Relocate Code Breakers and PG Upgrades to High Slot. As a Minmatar, I smiled broadly at seeing the words "Buff KinCats".
Rattati has expressed that it would be difficult to switch Low Slot mods to High Slot mods and vice-versa.
The little Min with the little voice.
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Powerh8er
The Rainbow Effect
555
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Posted - 2014.11.26 04:41:00 -
[39] - Quote
Heavies are not far from being free kills in pubs again, the only thing good about the sentinel is the HMG wich every non HMG user wants to nerf. Sad for heavies, because killing people with HMG is easy, staying alive as heavy is not.
And... Heavies was also spammed to guard points in pc before they got buffed, nobody complained then.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
155
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:@ Victor Moody Stahl
It would appear that you and I are dangerously close to becoming like-minded. This doesn't bode well for you, good sir, for I am but a simple man :-)
I rather doubt that we will ever be like-minded, purely because I think that the shotgun should have lower RoF and more range. This would be a huge benefit for, say, assault suit users that want to carry shotguns, and especially commando users (who are very slow, and basically rely on the enemy to get close to them... which can work well, admittedly)
There is, however, the fact that I would recommend we fix scouts first, and then kick heavies out of CQC dominance because that role simply does not work for them- or rather, it nullifies 90% of their disadvantages, while not marginalizing any of their advantages.
Which as we are seeing currently, leads to heavies being spammed everywhere, and generally overperforming. I almost wish for the days when the HMG wasn't super awesome and there was a relatively high number of heavies carrying light weapons instead... oh wait, that was actually idiotic (the sentinels w/ LW part). Sorry, just had a moment of brief insanity.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:How to Fix
* Add more meaningful drawbacks to Brick Modules (gotta touch this). * Make EWAR more meaningful to non-Scouts. * Buff KinCats and CardRegs. * Merge Shield Regulators with Energizers and/or Rechargers. * Relocate Code Breakers and PG Upgrades to High Slot.
I believe that Rattati's strafe speed penalty on HP mods is going to be a pretty huge deal for that first option. There's also the whole thing of fixing the "maximum dual-tank brick mode" that a lot of people are still rolling. I fully admit that I do this on my Logi suits... but I believe that has more to do with the fact that Logi suits are paper thin and slow, so the extra HP benefit from bricking the suit is borderline mandatory.
As far as EWAR being torn down and rebuilt from the ground up (because that's pretty much what it's going to take, IMO) so that medframes in particular have more EWAR benefits... I really agree with this. In fact, that one proposal you made about buffing medframe EWAR (which was surprisingly good BTW) seems like a good start[/], at least.
Insofar as buffing KinCats and Cardiac Regulators... I disagree that these mods need a straight up buff. KinCats are [i]still sucking down ridiculous amounts of PG, and I'd love to see this changed- not only would it benefit my slow-as-pants Amarr suits, but I have a feeling all those Minjas would saint me if that happened (and I convinced everyone it was my idea).
Merging shield regulators and energizers/rechargers, IMO, is a bad idea. Yes, armor has pretty much no high slot mods. No, shields should not lose regulators as a separate module. Instead, I would recommend the following changes to shield regulators:
-Merge the Regulator & Recharger skills; it's rather unfair, IMO, that shields have a larger SP sink to maximize their regen compared to armor. This also then opens up future additions of infantry resist mods being the 3rd tank skill.
-Add both shield and armor resist mods. For the most part, the resist mods should be intended to protect against those damage types that inflict more damage to a particular tank type.
Additionally, perhaps regulators could get a bit of a buff so that they have a greater effect on shield depleted delay than they do on shield regen delay- IE, regulators reduce the time it takes for shields to start regen from 0 shields to a greater degree than they reduce the shield delay of "take some damage, still have shields, start regen after x seconds".
As far as codebreakers and PG mods... I'm not sure. In EVE, both PG and CPU mods are in the low slot... but EVE also has rig slots that can fit PG/CPU increasing rigs. DUST doesn't really have such an equivalent, unfortunately.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Toobar Zoobar
the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY
25
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Posted - 2014.11.26 12:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
How to nerf the HMG:
Not a reduction in damage
Instead add a 1 second fire delay.
Still a weapon to fear, just not as ridiculous.
Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
687
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Posted - 2014.11.26 13:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I rather doubt that we will ever be like-minded, purely because I think that the shotgun should have lower RoF and more range. This would be a huge benefit for, say, assault suit users that want to carry shotguns, and especially commando users (who are very slow, and basically rely on the enemy to get close to them... which can work well, admittedly) We can agree to disagree on this one. In my estimation, if we lower RoF and increase range, we'd have to substantially increase damage per pellet on account of (1) HP Creep, (2) insta-spin and (3) spread variability at range. Consider the Breach Shotgun. This is a truly terrible weapon, and it is a weapon designed to perform as you've described. Even if we doubled its magazine size, it would remain a truly terrible weapon. It simply fails to deal damage quickly enough to overcome present HP levels. But all this and more we can discuss at length elsewhere; the focus of this thread is King HP, the Breach AR and the HMG.
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:There is, however, the fact that I would recommend we fix scouts first ... Absolutely with you on Scouts. There can be no question that previous tuning iterations have helped ( http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php ) but I agree with you that they remain too popular. Rattati has suggested that Scout EWAR is soon to be rewired to point to module efficacy rather than base frame. This will change everything; overnight Scout popularity will plummet. In lesser news, it'll be nice to see fire-from-cloak fixed as well.
Victor Moody Stahl wrote: ... and then kick heavies out of CQC dominance because that role simply does not work for them- or rather, it nullifies 90% of their disadvantages, while not marginalizing any of their advantages. Which as we are seeing currently, leads to heavies being spammed everywhere, and generally overperforming. I almost wish for the days when the HMG wasn't super awesome and there was a relatively high number of heavies carrying light weapons instead... oh wait, that was actually idiotic (the sentinels w/ LW part). Sorry, just had a moment of brief insanity.
I fear this a pipedream, the concept of moving these behemoths from close quarters to down range. But if the Heavy Community can figure it out, more power to them.
Victor Moody Stahl wrote: On Module Adjustments
Pretty much agree with everything you said. \o/
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Myron Kundera
The Generals
116
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Posted - 2014.11.26 17:14:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:1) AM Sentinel 2) GA Sentinel 3) AM Assault 4) Breach Assault Rifle 5) Heavy Machine Gun Broken stuff. Items in need of tuning. Listed in no particular order. Please and thank you. That is all.
1) No idea. I don-¦t use it and what kills me is the HMG, not the suit. 2) No idea. I don-¦t use it and what kills me is the HMG, not the suit. 3) AM Assault is fine. You need to have it at Lvl 5 to really make it shine and only good with certain weapons which in turn need Lvl 5 skills to shine too. 4) *Sigh* this again. Breach AR is fine. It kills at CQC versus shield based tankers (working as intended). You will get owned in a 1Vs1 fight versus a medium long range weapon outside it-¦s 40m optimal. 5) They allready nerfed the damage on the HMG i think.
"Greed, the forgotten mental disease"
"Spray and pray makes my day"
"Will use proto gear in self defense"
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
693
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Posted - 2014.11.26 17:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Myron Kundera wrote:Breach AR is fine. It kills at CQC versus shield based tankers (working as intended). You will get owned in a 1Vs1 fight versus a medium long range weapon outside it-¦s 40m optimal. Fun Fact: The Breach AR accounts for a nearly a third of all Light Weapon sales. Source: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php Why do you think that is, Myron?
Toobar Zoobar wrote:How to nerf the HMG ... Fox Gaden just put up an idea thread. What do you think of it, Toobar? |
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