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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
151
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Posted - 2014.11.25 06:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:1) AM Sentinel
2) GA Sentinel
[...]
5) Heavy Machine Gun
Heavies in general are in what I would contend is a "not good" state- in this case because they are in fact overperforming. I don't think anybody disputes this.
The main issue is solutions, in that some people are more interested in an uncalled for total nerf of the class and weapons system as a whole. Moreover, I'd like to see some detailed reasons as to why the other two sentinel suits are not broken.
Pulling from further down the thread:
Vitantur Nothus wrote:GA Sentinel, AM Sentinel, AM Assault
Add meaningful mobility penalties to armor plates. Thinking penalties to movement, backpedal, strafe, etc. Something. Want to be a fantastic fortress? Move like a damn fortress.
[trimmed for length/relevance]
Traditional plates already have a "meaningful mobility penalty". The real issue is that the mobility of a heavy suit is never actually a problem since they have been shoehorned into a CQC role.
Point of interest: the Amarr Logi suit, which is faster than a heavy, is literally reduced to the same speed as the Amarr Sentinel if you stack 4 Complex Plates. After a quick check on ProtoFits, a proto Amarr Sentinel that stacks 4 Complex Plates is reduced to ~3 m/s movement speed, and 4.37 m/s sprint speed.
There are at least half a dozen medframes that can strafe faster than such a build can sprint. Movement penalties are already harsh enough as is.
Also, MDs, Locus (especially Core Locus), Flaylocks, CRs, and ACRs all positively shred armor to pieces. I don't include HMGs in this list purely because the HMG is limited to a particular platform- none of the above are so limited. And no, the Commando lack of a grenade slot doesn't count as limiting locus grenades.
But again, the real issue is that the CQC role that the HMG Sentinel has been pigeonholed into is ultimately a role in which mobility is of little relevance for a platform with titanic eHP and DPS.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Heavy Machine Gun
Add 1/4 second spool-up time. cap rotation speed, or ask the heavies for a how to fix (then ignore the ones who say "I deserves a chance to respond"). When the fantastic fortress of insta-death is flanked, there should be dire consequences. Just like 800HP Scouts shouldn't be a thing, insta-spin-and-win Heavies shouldn't be a thing.
It is traditionally considered quite daft for it to have any kind of spool time- particularly as that would be completely contrary to the description. Veteran DUSTers may consider item descriptions to be only moderately reliable, but the newbro who thinks heavies are God's gift to FPS gaming will not have such... cynicism, to be blunt.
Moreover, it's already been proven that a reduced rotation speed for a unit that is supposedly intended for CQC fights consigns said unit to irrelevance at best, or a SP trap and the equivalent of a walking WP pinata at worst.
While I would agree that the ability of a heavy suit to "instaspin" should be limited... I think that this should be addressed by simply evicting the Sentinel suit from CQC combat, with the exception of Burst HMG door-kickers. I'm sure you've seen Breakin Stuff's proposal about that particular matter.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:3) AM Assault
Please provide an in-depth analysis as to why the Amarr Assault is overperforming. Because there are several possible explanations- Gallente Assaults are pretty ass right now, and so are the Caldari based on bonuses (though Gallente is absolutely worse off).
If it's the ScR that's supposedly "OP"... then I contend that the TacAR is actually even more so and it's just a sleeper hit due to the requirement of L4 AR Ops to get TacARs. The reason is simple- the Tac has higher damage per shot, and can't overheat; you run out of shots, it just goes into a reload animation that can be postponed by swapping weapons, sprinting, or melee'ing.
An overheated ScR leaves it's user totally vulnerable to anything and everything- and even on the Amarr Assault that overheat limitation will be an issue.
I'd also like to point out that nerfs to the AmSalt based on it supposedly being "too good" with a Scrambler Rifle will hurt LR users, who depend even more heavily on the heat bonus of the Amarr Assault.
ScRs can be quite excellent on pretty much any suit that takes the resources to fit it. LRs are barely usable on the Amarr Commando, and excel on the Amarr Assault, while being of limited relevance on anything else.
I would also like to echo True Adamance- Amarr suits are already incredibly slow- and no, that extra stamina does NOT make up for the lack of speed- so slapping on large amounts of traditional plates merely exacerbates this issue, forcing one into being the equivalent of a walking turret.
As an aside, I once used ProtoFit to throw together an Assault ak.0 with 5 Complex Reactive plates. Movement speed wasn't too bad- it was definitely faster than even a fit with only two Complex Plates- and it had a bit over 700 armor... but it also had only 17 hp/s armor regen.
A shield tanked suit might not get that high- or only with difficulty- but they will always have better self-regen than 17 hp/s.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:4) Breach Assault Rifle
I doubt that anyone can seriously declaim the BAR as not being legitimately OP at this point. It does seem like HMG heavies and yes, shotgun scouts, are more popular- and even CRs/ACRs seem to be popping up equally as often... but whenever I see a BAR user on the field, it's almost invariably the case that they murder 99% of everything that wanders in front of them.
And it doesn't really matter if it's shield tanked to the gills or covered in armor plating- if it gets seen by the BAR user, it usually dies, and very quickly at that.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
153
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Posted - 2014.11.26 00:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Agreed on all counts. In my admittedly simple and biased mind, MN/CA Sentinels aren't broken because (1) they aren't spammed in PC and (2) they go down quickly when hit from behind by their supposed CQC counters (knives, shotguns, flux+acr, etc) and (3) they can be effectively engaged at range as their HP reserves are typically less ridiculous than those of GA/AM.
...I would actually offer the counter-argument that due to the entrenched meta of "HP>everything else" among PC groups, that the AM/GA sentinels are spammed because they have an on-paper survival benefit. The other side of that is that the CA/MN sentinels aren't able to benefit nearly as well from rep logis, unlike the AM/GA suits.
I'd also comment that the AM/GA sentinels are arguably worse of in a long-range fight, as if they're running a MAXIMUM BRICK fit then they're slower than dirt and will be gunned down with complete contempt, since, you know, they can't make it into cover fast enough.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Sprint speed isn't the problem, nor is it a limiting factor to a defender. The problem is how ably these fortresses respond when flanked. If I intend to move a red blob, in most cases, I must use a blue blob. The maximum land speed of either blob is of little consequence thanks to modern transportation methods.
So in other words, the problem is that the heavy suit's primary disadvantage (on-foot mobility) is completely negated by the role that it has been pigeonholed into.
Glad we basically understand each other here, then.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Retired my Core Locus Grenades after observing an Amarr Sentinel's remaining HP after being hit with two back-to-back. Perhaps my prototype anti-armor grenades were bugged, but I positively hit him directly with both and what followed was positively not shredding. But while we're on the topic, imagine how fast blobs would dissipate if Sentinel resistance were inverted such that Locus Grenades did bonus damage rather than giggle damage!
I contend that if the splash damage resistance was removed from sentinel suits people would stop using them alltogether because they would be too easy to kill. There's a reason that for a very long time in DUST's history it was basically an "I-Win" button to carry locus nades and then use them against a heavy.
There's also the slight issue that the engine would probably require significant overhaul to do that... oh, yeah, and did I mention that it would be stupid?
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Freely defer to the Heavy Community on how to fix insta-spin-and-win.
I'm pretty sure that that's what my point boiled down to... that your spool idea was shortly considered before being universally rejected by said community.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:We need not play the guessing game, gentlmen! The data we need is here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.phpLet's have a look at those Light Weapons ... Mr Breach! Nothing else quite compares. That nasty ScR? It isn't even on the map! But OP contends that AM Assault is OP. If it isn't his ScR, could it be his King HP? Let's have a look at Low Slot Modules ... Bricks for the win! A staggering 99.9%!
The Amarr Assault has the best HP potential of the assault suits because the AmSalt is the slowest... which means it's more likely to get shot in the face substantially more, on account of being limited to waddling into cover.
As an aside, I would argue that the whole "Bricks>everything else" issue has more to do with the fact that, to a limited degree, a brick is better than most other options. Mostly because scouts can do speed/EWAR tank better than any medframe user can even dream of. Doesn't help either that medframe EWAR is utter ass right now, either.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
155
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Posted - 2014.11.26 05:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:@ Victor Moody Stahl
It would appear that you and I are dangerously close to becoming like-minded. This doesn't bode well for you, good sir, for I am but a simple man :-)
I rather doubt that we will ever be like-minded, purely because I think that the shotgun should have lower RoF and more range. This would be a huge benefit for, say, assault suit users that want to carry shotguns, and especially commando users (who are very slow, and basically rely on the enemy to get close to them... which can work well, admittedly)
There is, however, the fact that I would recommend we fix scouts first, and then kick heavies out of CQC dominance because that role simply does not work for them- or rather, it nullifies 90% of their disadvantages, while not marginalizing any of their advantages.
Which as we are seeing currently, leads to heavies being spammed everywhere, and generally overperforming. I almost wish for the days when the HMG wasn't super awesome and there was a relatively high number of heavies carrying light weapons instead... oh wait, that was actually idiotic (the sentinels w/ LW part). Sorry, just had a moment of brief insanity.
Vitantur Nothus wrote:How to Fix
* Add more meaningful drawbacks to Brick Modules (gotta touch this).
* Make EWAR more meaningful to non-Scouts.
* Buff KinCats and CardRegs.
* Merge Shield Regulators with Energizers and/or Rechargers.
* Relocate Code Breakers and PG Upgrades to High Slot.
I believe that Rattati's strafe speed penalty on HP mods is going to be a pretty huge deal for that first option. There's also the whole thing of fixing the "maximum dual-tank brick mode" that a lot of people are still rolling. I fully admit that I do this on my Logi suits... but I believe that has more to do with the fact that Logi suits are paper thin and slow, so the extra HP benefit from bricking the suit is borderline mandatory.
As far as EWAR being torn down and rebuilt from the ground up (because that's pretty much what it's going to take, IMO) so that medframes in particular have more EWAR benefits... I really agree with this. In fact, that one proposal you made about buffing medframe EWAR (which was surprisingly good BTW) seems like a good start[/], at least.
Insofar as buffing KinCats and Cardiac Regulators... I disagree that these mods need a straight up buff. KinCats are [i]still sucking down ridiculous amounts of PG, and I'd love to see this changed- not only would it benefit my slow-as-pants Amarr suits, but I have a feeling all those Minjas would saint me if that happened (and I convinced everyone it was my idea).
Merging shield regulators and energizers/rechargers, IMO, is a bad idea. Yes, armor has pretty much no high slot mods. No, shields should not lose regulators as a separate module. Instead, I would recommend the following changes to shield regulators:
-Merge the Regulator & Recharger skills; it's rather unfair, IMO, that shields have a larger SP sink to maximize their regen compared to armor. This also then opens up future additions of infantry resist mods being the 3rd tank skill.
-Add both shield and armor resist mods. For the most part, the resist mods should be intended to protect against those damage types that inflict more damage to a particular tank type.
Additionally, perhaps regulators could get a bit of a buff so that they have a greater effect on shield depleted delay than they do on shield regen delay- IE, regulators reduce the time it takes for shields to start regen from 0 shields to a greater degree than they reduce the shield delay of "take some damage, still have shields, start regen after x seconds".
As far as codebreakers and PG mods... I'm not sure. In EVE, both PG and CPU mods are in the low slot... but EVE also has rig slots that can fit PG/CPU increasing rigs. DUST doesn't really have such an equivalent, unfortunately.
Buff Logis | Nerf Scouts
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