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[Request] ISK Payout changes - Current payouts cause risk aversion

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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18843	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote So, ISK payouts. They've been in roughly their current incarnation for... a very long time. There've been little tweaks over time but they've never really left the ~200k average zone. Let's talk about that. ISK is a key part of this game. Using most gear costs ISK. When you die, you lose this gear and as a result lose ISK. As a result, using most gear is tied into how much ISK you can get. This also provides a significant incentive to not die. Here's the thing, though - If the ISK payout is too low, you get a massive aversion to risk because nobody wants to die because if they do they'll lose precious ISK and be unable to run gear they like. In a way this means that people can't run their best gear all the time, and that's probably a good thing. What isn't a good thing, though, is the balance between how much people are rewarded for risk and how much they are punished for it. Sticking all the way through a match without doing anything will earn something like 80-160k ISK. I get this number from my AFKing 'efforts'. That is to say, if you do absolutely nothing in a match, you'll earn ISK in that range. If you take out a couple of mediocre fits at 30k ISK in a match and go out into the fray, you can start earning more WP and therefore more ISK. If you're a logi or someone able to farm lots of warpoints, that can help your ISK payout noticeably. But is that worth doing? With said 30k fits, which I'm using as an average because that's what a cheap ADV fit (which ought to be pretty much average) will cost you, can you earn enough with them to make it worth risking? By charging into the fray and pushing objectives/making a serious effort at changing the game flow, you are inevitably going to lose several of these. If you lose half a dozen of these, will you earn enough ISK to make it worth doing that? The problem is that you won't. A better than average match may earn you 300k if you make a serious effort and are in the top few slots on the board. In the process of doing this, you'll have lost several suits. Losing half a dozen or so, which I imagine is lower than the average deaths per match, will put your net profit down to the ~100k range. That's similar to AFK profits! And that's using cheap fits, doing very well in matches, and not dying a huge amount. This naturally means that people aren't going to want to take risks and this means that there is no incentive to make a serious attempt at fighting. TL;DR People are risk averse because ISK payouts for taking risks are too low to justify taking those risks. This leads to gameplay stagnating people people are unwilling to seriously fight. I propose increasing the ISK payout and the share of the ISK payout for earning warpoints. Ultimately, those changes should mean that doing nothing earns you either what it does currently or less, but gives significantly more ISK for those who make a genuine effort at winning the match. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 832	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:56:00 - [2] - Quote Pretty much stating the obvious there, but it's the kind of obvious that CCP has seen fit to ignore for too long. +1 Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8301	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4477	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:06:00 - [4] - Quote Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:35:00 - [5] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. Putting in work in this game only loses the merc precious gear, and lots of it?! Hold the point at your own risk?! There is no reward in it. Helping your team win the battle in the methods afore mentioned doesn't yield any more isk?! And yes, the devs have all forsaken the gallente. Which is fine because it makes it so much sweeter when I kill off their favorite races the Caldari and Amarr :) "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:38:00 - [6] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k Exactly! The way I play I should see more matches that yield 1 mil isk payout potential. Sometimes I consistently bring links, ammo, and AV which is supposed to be the biggest isk paying things right? Doing these jobs leads to constant death, and only to yield low 300k payouts when you've put out 700k in suits?! "Anybody order chaos?"
DarthPlagueis TheWise 303	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:38:00 - [7] - Quote friendly bump Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:05:00 - [8] - Quote Raising payouts won't make people less risk averse. Sure, people will bring out better gear, but that's because they won't lose money from dying in better gear, ie they're risk averse. I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. Imagine it, if payouts could support proto gear, all people would run is high level stuff, putting anyone who's new and can't field such gear at a disadvantage almost all the time. Whereas now, you have to run lower tier gear to build up you capital and find your proto gear, lessening its frequency. Raising the payouts is also a slap in the face to the whole "risk vs reward" idea by essentially removing the risk of running high leveled gear. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18852	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:16:00 - [9] - Quote Unless the payouts were raised incredibly drastically, proto still won't be sustainable. Losing three proto suits will still put you ISK negative for a match even with a doubled payout. That's not really the entire point here, though. The point is to reward people more for taking risks rather than AFKing. You get barely less ISK for AFKing than you do for actually engaging. What really ought to make people less risk averse is people being rewarded more for engaging. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:26:00 - [10] - Quote Agreed, Suggested Numbers for ISK Payout: Minimum = 50seconds in match (same as SP) Damage Dealt 10 WP * 100 Kills * 5,000 (Deaths * (-5000) )> 0 Assuming an average match takes 10 minutes, average WP is 1000, average 10 kills and 5 deaths with 25k damage dealt, this would be: Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 250,000 WP = 100k Kills = 50k Deaths = (-25k) Total = 378k For someone closer to my skills, this would look more like this Average time 10 minutes, average WP 500, average kills 7, average deaths 15, average Damage dealt 20k Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 200k WP = 50k Kills = 35k Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Total = 253k Not sure about the highest ends, but from some of what I've seen: High Time 20 minutes, High WP 2500, High Kills 35, Low Deaths 1, High Damage Dealt 100k Time = 6k Damage Dealt = 1,000k WP = 250k Kills = 175k Deaths = (-5k) Total = 1,426k Just a thought.

Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 135	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:29:00 - [11] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Agreed, Suggested Numbers for ISK Payout: Minimum = 50seconds in match (same as SP) Damage Dealt 10 WP * 100 Kills * 5,000 (Deaths * (-5000) )> 0 Assuming an average match takes 10 minutes, average WP is 1000, average 10 kills and 5 deaths with 25k damage dealt, this would be: Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 250,000 WP = 100k Kills = 50k Deaths = (-25k) Total = 378k For someone closer to my skills, this would look more like this Average time 10 minutes, average WP 500, average kills 7, average deaths 15, average Damage dealt 20k Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 200k WP = 50k Kills = 35k Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Total = 253k Not sure about the highest ends, but from some of what I've seen: High Time 20 minutes, High WP 2500, High Kills 35, Low Deaths 1, High Damage Dealt 100k Time = 6k Damage Dealt = 1,000k WP = 250k Kills = 175k Deaths = (-5k) Total = 1,426k Just a thought. +1 Logibro, you're my boy
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:05:00 - [12] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k I've probably spoken against raising pub payouts in the past, but these sorts of numbers I can see as being tenable, the multi-million isk payouts from 1.9 release would just be super-inflation inducing, but averaging 300k with the "star players" capping at 5 or 7 seems legit. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:22:00 - [13] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k Exactly! The way I play I should see more matches that yield 1 mil isk payout potential. Sometimes I consistently bring links, ammo, and AV which is supposed to be the biggest isk paying things right? Doing these jobs leads to constant death, and only to yield low 300k payouts when you've put out 700k in suits?! Each of those jobs can be done (effectively) from suits that are 35-50k each. If your losses are in the 3/4 of a mill range you probably want to refit your setups. EDIT- And quit dying already! XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5220	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:34:00 - [14] - Quote So much f'n yes I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 834	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:41:00 - [15] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. I support the lower ISK payouts for exactly this reason. However I strongly support modifying faction warfare payouts so they easily support advanced faction gear at a win-loss ratio of 1:1. I'm talking ~10 full advanced suits per player per battle. That way people who are looking to deploy better gear should gravitate towards FW while pubs really are just for mucking about in basic gear. Just like high-sec, really.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18860	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:04:00 - [16] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Deaths = (-25k) Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Deaths = (-5k) Deaths as a penalty runs entirely counter to the purpose of the suggestion. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 174	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:11:00 - [17] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Raising payouts won't make people less risk averse. Sure, people will bring out better gear, but that's because they won't lose money from dying in better gear, ie they're risk averse. I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. Imagine it, if payouts could support proto gear, all people would run is high level stuff, putting anyone who's new and can't field such gear at a disadvantage almost all the time. Whereas now, you have to run lower tier gear to build up you capital and find your proto gear, lessening its frequency. Raising the payouts is also a slap in the face to the whole "risk vs reward" idea by essentially removing the risk of running high leveled gear. In my opinion, the current payout system is already a slap in the face to the whole risk vs reward premise. I think what's being suggested here isn't a flat blanket increase to isk payouts, it's more of a redistribution in isk REWARDS- to those that deserve it: the people who actually push and don't give up when they're being protostomped, the people who get warpoints and try to win... I can't tell you how many times I've killed tons of protoscouts with my anti-scout fit and really believe I genuinely contributed massively to a victory- only to lose isk because each fit costs about 40,000 ISK. It's a fit I hate, but constantly found myself confined within prior to 1.9... Higher tiered gear is already sustainable by older players- I've never played in PC and I've earned all 100 million of my ISK using nothing but STD suits, but I consider myself broke because my 100 million is my "minimum contingency budget". If I really wanted to... I could easily change my mindset and use nothing, but proto... I could easily find a group of protostompers and tag along and never worry about going broke. I could just use protogear when there is no opposition on the other team. I could just sit in the redline as soon as I start losing and still make significant profit or at least mitigate my losses. Besides... This shouldn't be about giving newer players getting a chance just because they're new players- that's what the academy, starting isk, and starting skills are for. It should be about rewarding good players- whether or not they were new, whether or not they were using proto or standard, whether or not they were being stomped, maybe even compensating them in isk for each death so that way people don't go broke when they die 20 times. Risk is comprised of more than just losing protogear in a match- you take a risk everytime you deploy into match, you take a risk even when you're in battle solo, you take a risk when you go in standard gear against protosquads- that should be awarded more than sitting in the redline and giving up. Not to mention- increasing the frequency of protogear may actually increase the consistency of a player's performance and in effect- their Mu. It can possibly refine matchmaking as players perform using their best gear and so perform their best more consistently, they'll gradually get quarantined into their own more competitive matches. PC used to spill into pubs constantly in the form of it's competitive players, their tactics, fits, and their isk- as protogear and being a quitter is way too economically viable in the face of that. Well, it was actually more than that, is was how you were supposed to play- manage your ISK, mitigate your losses, etc.. You know what happens to the game when all you can do to win is quit? Or when your reccomended course of action is to not try? It dies. And before you even say "Oh, but Dust isn't dead yet"- go look at your blue berries next time you're getting stomped and look at what players do behind the redline. It looks like they're wandering around pretending to play Hey You, Pikachu! They're not playing the game. The economy of Dust514, although not a fully realized economy, still is an economy... It was and perhaps still is lop-sided and imbalanced, there were few people who would tell you otherwise. Look at all the threads complaining about the blue ring and Nyain San for the longest time. In my opinion, people can no longer shrug and just say "PC is where the big boys play, pubs are for lower tier players" because it's already been demonstrated time and time again that PC players and PC corp wannabe's come into pubs and when they do, pub players aren't rewarded enough for pushing back.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 59	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:28:00 - [18] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Deaths = (-25k) Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Deaths = (-5k) Deaths as a penalty runs entirely counter to the purpose of the suggestion. Well then it can be taken out. After all, it's just a suggestion. The intent was to capture and reward the various roles used while making AFK an undesirable play method.
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 52	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:55:00 - [19] - Quote U have my support arkena Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1238	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:57:00 - [20] - Quote Yup this is it. I don't run proto cuz there too much risk and little reward in doing so Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18887	Posted - 2014.11.09 01:06:00 - [21] - Quote It's not so much about being able to constantly fund proto gear so much as it's about being incentivised to play. Don't confuse this, folks. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4715	Posted - 2014.11.09 11:20:00 - [22] - Quote I want higher ISk payouts. I do not want "let's constantly run proto" payouts unless a game mode that adds a LOT of heavy losses and risk opens up specifically for prototype battles. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19408	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:25:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I want higher ISk payouts. I do not want "let's constantly run proto" payouts unless a game mode that adds a LOT of heavy losses and risk opens up specifically for prototype battles. This. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5139	Posted - 2014.11.26 20:14:00 - [24] - Quote I fully agree with the OP. Although my average income per match is more like 120K ISK rather than ~200K, and my break-even point for suit cost is about 20K ISK rather than 30K. I get around this to some extend by running a fully BPO Standard/Militia Sentinel fit much of the time which allows me to earn enough ISK to run Advanced Sentinel fits the rest of the time. I have played since Closed Beta and I have only run a Proto suit in about 6 matches (one of which was a PC match) in all that time, as the boost of the proto suit over Advanced is not worth hemorrhaging ISK at such a prodigious rate. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 222	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:02:00 - [25] - Quote I support this, losing 1 or 2 Proto suits in a match, and you've just lost your winnings. Amarrian In Disguise.. Pain is weakness leaving the body. You Underestimate Me, ADS, Tanker, Heavy, Scout, Logi
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1011	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:25:00 - [26] - Quote Where is the blue tag on this? I fully support this. ISK payouts are so broken it's disgraceful. Overlord of Broman
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6227	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:35:00 - [27] - Quote I find that even running a 30K Quaffe outfit isn't even cutting it anymore. Especially the battles I am obviously losing, but still trying. I was very close to running a redline sniper outfit because I didn't see any point in getting stomped that badly and losing so many suits, but I couldn't bear doing that. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
GENERAL FCF Sentinels of New Eden 50	Posted - 2014.12.07 14:50:00 - [28] - Quote I'll vote for this! Too many times I see blueberries sitting around or afk. Like yesterday Only 6 people were trying to fight the whole match while 10 others were taking up our teams space not doing schnitzel! So I free suited it. This is bull though because stagnant players SHOULD NOT earn isk.
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 358	Posted - 2014.12.07 15:08:00 - [29] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. Dude. You can be found camping out and imagining that you are doing something with your buddies. Wansktain @ Rekt
Valor Goat 33	Posted - 2014.12.07 16:43:00 - [30] - Quote Bump for the blue tagz 1EE7

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2302	Posted - 2014.12.07 16:50:00 - [31] - Quote I too support an increase in Isk payouts, though I'd propose 500k average rather than 300k average (which would be roughly 2.5 proto suits lost per match for those keeping count). Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
abdullah muzaffar G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 76	Posted - 2014.12.07 21:18:00 - [32] - Quote They probably just changed the %of total isk for team position/wp, you get higher isk than before while doing good, but waaaaaaay less isk doing badly, and both need to be increased
Sequal Rise Les Desanusseurs 398	Posted - 2014.12.07 22:42:00 - [33] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Pretty much stating the obvious there, but it's the kind of obvious that CCP has seen fit to ignore for too long. +1 This. You said it all Arkena and I 100% agree with you, they shouldn't change the minimum ISK payout, but should increase significantly the ammount of ISK earn per battle according to WP. I think it should be doubled(or even more). Some fights could be so much funnier if people would risk their suits! Some would say that there would be more proto teams yeah, but what's a proto team against another one? Challenging battles! Assault, Logi, Scout, Heavy.. What do you need?
Kierkegaard Soren THE HANDS OF DEATH RUST415 573	Posted - 2014.12.07 23:23:00 - [34] - Quote I run an ADV suit that comes in at around 35k, and I make a steady but small profit over the course of an evenings play. However, the minute I build a 50k suit (swapping out STD weapons for ADV typically) I start to bleed isk. It's frustrating. I'm not a terrible player; I push objectives, hunt vehicles and generally play for the benefit of my team and for my own enjoyment, but truly competitive suits are beyond my business model, so to speak. Rewards for match wins should exist to incentivise the player base to play competitively and we need to look at bonus payments for hacking and holding objectives. That said, I think the daily missions might well be our deliverance from this issue perhaps? Dedicated Commando. "He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
Stupid Blueberry Hyasyoda Terrestrial Acquisitions Firm 674	Posted - 2014.12.08 01:01:00 - [35] - Quote Need to raise the payout percentages for killing proto and advanced dropsuits. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Haajakin Kalen.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2304	Posted - 2014.12.08 01:45:00 - [36] - Quote Stupid Blueberry wrote: Need to raise the payout percentages for killing proto and advanced dropsuits. I like this idea a lot, crank up the payouts slightly and then increase the amount of Isk we get for killing PRO and ADV suits so that if it does cause an increase in usage, it will only cause a larger payout as well. Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Ryme Intrinseca Dead Man's Game RUST415 2192	Posted - 2014.12.08 07:14:00 - [37] - Quote I mostly agree. The only thing I would slightly disagree with is that I don't think the ISK payout necessarily needs to increase. I can see why CCP don't want to dope the overall market with more ISK. I think the way to go is rather to make ISK (and SP) much more proportional to contribution. For instance, a current distribution might look like this: 1. 2500 WP, 330,000 ISK 2. 2000, 280,000 3. 1500, 250,000 4. 1250, 230,000 5. 1000, 210,000 6. 750, 190,000 ... 13. 0 (AFK), 120,000 14. 0 (AFK), 120,000 15. 0 (AFK), 120,000 16. 0 (AFK), 120,000 I think the distribution in this example should be changed to something more like: 1. 2500 WP, 430,000 ISK 2. 2000, 380,000 3. 1500, 330,000 4. 1250, 310,000 5. 1000, 270,000 6. 750, 250,000 ... 13. 0 (AFK), 0 14. 0 (AFK), 0 15. 0 (AFK), 0 16. 0 (AFK), 0 If payouts looked like that, the players that really pushed would get much more reasonable compensation for the suits they lose. But the overall amount of payout is the same. Furthermore, you remove a big part of the incentive to AFK as well, which has to be a good thing. At the moment a high proportion of games are ruined by people who leave their AFK bots running all day.
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1015	Posted - 2014.12.08 18:10:00 - [38] - Quote The current payouts are horrible. However, it seems CCP refuses to do something about it for reasons. Maybe instead of current payouts we should be asking them to increase the payouts for the winners while decreasing the payouts for the losers. Keep the payout total between the teams the same if you must but lets provide incentive for people to try to win, it's ruining battles when no one bothers even attempting to win, they just screw around padding their kdr from afar knowing they'll get the same payout and loose less ISK then fighting over the point. Overlord of Broman
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 1155	Posted - 2014.12.08 18:39:00 - [39] - Quote Signed sort of. The overall payment doesn't need to be increased but rather that the -distribution of wealth- needs to be adjusted to compensate the higher wp earning players in the team. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
Kuruld Sengar T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 71	Posted - 2014.12.08 18:41:00 - [40] - Quote I run proto almost constantly, and my worst fear is higher payouts. Higher payouts would kill this game if they were sustained. Proto stomping seems at an all time low recently, with advanced being very common. If payouts were raised, I would never run anything but proto again. I understand the longing for isk, I've stayed up many a night grinding and wishing there was an easier way, but if proto wasn't as costly where would the excitement and sense of risk go?

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2306	Posted - 2014.12.08 19:58:00 - [41] - Quote Kuruld Sengar wrote: I run proto almost constantly, and my worst fear is higher payouts. Higher payouts would kill this game if they were sustained. Proto stomping seems at an all time low recently, with advanced being very common. If payouts were raised, I would never run anything but proto again. I understand the longing for isk, I've stayed up many a night grinding and wishing there was an easier way, but if proto wasn't as costly where would the excitement and sense of risk go? I was just in a match that was nothing but Scouts and Ak.0 Assaults and Sentinels, oh and HAVs for days. Protostomping has gone nowhere, it is still around. Do you fear higher payouts because you fear PRO competition? If you fear higher payouts because you think PRO gear should be really expensive so that it is "special", why not raise payouts and then significantly increase the cost of PRO gear? How about raise the average payout by 250% and then the cost of PRO gear by 2500%? This would increase payouts for all and keep PRO gear expensive and "special". I do agree that the distribution of wealth should be more impacted by WP totals (I was in a match last night where I just got into the last moments, I went 0/0/0 and 0WP and I still walked away with Isk and SP) Dust514/Legion should be a(n): [_] Arcade Lobby Shooter [X] Sci-fi Military Sim
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 274	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:01:00 - [42] - Quote I am generally against increasing payouts. All tiers of equipment need to have a place and be more than just a stepping stone to proto. Just my opinion.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19945	Posted - 2014.12.08 20:28:00 - [43] - Quote This is not a 'proto all day every day' suggestion. At present there is very little difference between the profits you get from AFKing and the profit you get from actually fighting, even in cheap gear. The payout values are frankly pathetic. Even if they were doubled, it would not magically mean that everyone is permanently running proto. Two or three deaths will put you ISK negative in proto. That is not sustainable for everyone. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2247	Posted - 2014.12.09 02:23:00 - [44] - Quote Here's the thing. In Eve, I have no problem throwing a 400M ship at nullsec pvp. Even if I die, no big deal. I have a pimped out ship that I can run missions with very little (not nonexistent) risk in highsec. and get that 400M back to do it all again. There is no reason for me NOT to go nuts, other than shortening the wait until me between a ship loss and a new one. In Dust, there is no safe mission area for me to accrue ISK. If I lose a million ISK in assets, I can only recoup that loss by doing the same exact thing that caused me to lose 1M ISK. Its like Eve pilots only being able to recoup their losses in nullsec... By fighting in nullsec. The closest we have to "running missions" is AFK farming. Strapped down to my bed, feet cold and eyes red I'm out of my head, am I alive or am I dead
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 719	Posted - 2014.12.09 04:51:00 - [45] - Quote Agree with the OP and the overall premise. I don't necessarily agree that being in the bottom of the bracket should be NO ISK, but I think we can find a decent model. Here is something I've been kicking around for a while. Set it so each "position" on the board has a set ISK amount. Then use a multiplier with WP to come to a total figure. 1. 100 k 2. 95 k 3. 90 k 4. 85 k 5. 80 k 6. 75 7. 70 8. 60 9. 50 k 10 and below 25 k. Then take the individual's WP's and multiply them by "x" and then multiply that with the total payout. For example, for an Ambush match, I'll use .0025 So I am on top of the board and I get 1500 WP in the match. We take 1500 X .0025 = 3.75. 3.75 X my first place payout of 100k = 375,000 2nd player gets 1100. 1100x.0025 is 2.75 X 95k = 261250 If the top player goes apeshit and puts up 4000 WP or more, that is where we have some issues that need to be worked out. We have 4000 x .0025 for 10 X 100k is 1 Million ISK. However, we are not seeing 4000 WP put up in Ambush (Normally). So what I would do is adjust the multiplier on the type of match. Ambush are the quickest so they will not have as high WP totals as a Dom or skirmish. So for Dom and Skirm, we change the multiplier to say .0015. 4000 WP * .0015 is 6 x 100k is a 600,000 ISK payout. Right in what I believe is a sweet spot. Not too ridiculous but enough to make it worth the person's while. Those matches where you have one person putting up 6000 WP is still under a million (though, at 900K, is pretty damn close) People who are AFK'ing are going to be sitting there making a total of 25k ISK (not worth it) and those trying to help the team will be rewarded. Even in the stomp-matches, those who have the most WP overall will be rewarded for the effort. Any thoughts/comments? Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 229	Posted - 2014.12.09 06:42:00 - [46] - Quote People should not be able to run proto after proto and still make a profit. In actuality the baseline ISK earned should be even lower. This will help burn the ISK of those who exploited PC. OR Make proto and ADV much more expensive Pffft....... Proto Suits lol Adv Omni Merc is the way to go
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19952	Posted - 2014.12.09 06:52:00 - [47] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: People should not be able to run proto after proto and still make a profit. In actuality the baseline ISK earned should be even lower. This will help burn the ISK of those who exploited PC. OR Make proto and ADV much more expensive Both of these actually mean that only those who played PC or played pre-Uprising will be able to afford proto and possibly ADV as well if you seriously believe that ADV should only be for the elite. Reducing payouts is absurd. Get your hatred of "PC exploiters" away and actually think about this. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 229	Posted - 2014.12.09 07:00:00 - [48] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: People should not be able to run proto after proto and still make a profit. In actuality the baseline ISK earned should be even lower. This will help burn the ISK of those who exploited PC. OR Make proto and ADV much more expensive Both of these actually mean that only those who played PC or played pre-Uprising will be able to afford proto and possibly ADV as well if you seriously believe that ADV should only be for the elite. Reducing payouts is absurd. Get your hatred of "PC exploiters" away and actually think about this. My hatred of the exploitation is well deserved. It is the reason that this game will never be truly connected to EVE. It ruined the economy in Dust. From the eyes of EVE players and CCP our ISK is nonexistent. I am thinking about this. I am thinking about how to erase the billions of ISK that are sitting in peoples wallets. I honestly wouldnt mind an unannounced ISK wipe. Pffft....... Proto Suits lol Adv Omni Merc is the way to go
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19952	Posted - 2014.12.09 07:08:00 - [49] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: People should not be able to run proto after proto and still make a profit. In actuality the baseline ISK earned should be even lower. This will help burn the ISK of those who exploited PC. OR Make proto and ADV much more expensive Both of these actually mean that only those who played PC or played pre-Uprising will be able to afford proto and possibly ADV as well if you seriously believe that ADV should only be for the elite. Reducing payouts is absurd. Get your hatred of "PC exploiters" away and actually think about this. My hatred of the exploitation is well deserved. It is the reason that this game will never be truly connected to EVE. It ruined the economy in Dust. From the eyes of EVE players and CCP our ISK is nonexistent. I am thinking about this. I am thinking about how to erase the billions of ISK that are sitting in peoples wallets. I honestly wouldnt mind an unannounced ISK wipe. Then you're an idiot. There never was a real economy. I came out of the Uprising refund with 400 mil ISK, and it dropped maybe 20 mil after months of proto all day every day until I joined FA, even without playing PC. ISK is not why DUST and EVE aren't connected. DUST is why they're not connected. It's terrible, and would not be able to support a proper link. If you seriously believe that PC ISK is even a drop in the bucket of the EVE economy, you have another thing coming. I have 80 bil on my EVE account. I am only moderately well off in EVE terms. If you put most of the players in FA together you probably still wouldn't have that much. DUST and EVE are never going to be linked. DUST is going to be quietly killed off out the back sometime, without ever linking up. That is not because of ISK. Punishing pub players (and indeed, both of your proposed 'solutions' assist PC players in stomping more than anything else) is an absolutely ridiculous way of attempting to get the games linked. The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 469	Posted - 2014.12.09 09:46:00 - [50] - Quote Honestly, I don't think increasing isk will make a difference. unless it is significant and then everyone can run proto. The nature of the risk / reward system will always have players take a risk averse position. This is just behavioural economics. Not wanting to derail your idea but i think suit tiercide is the easiest way to reduce the power creep. And get people to play. People falling back on cheaper/starter fits that only increases the power difference between those that run higher gear v lower gear players. And then continue to be beat up. This game has always been one-sided. I remember these conversations at the v begining of the games history and posters and pretty sure CCP at the time were promoting the idea of pure capitalism/ economic warfare. Except there is no economy. I think its a shame CCP brought in the APEX suits as aur items as well. If they had kept them as LP only and mined data from their use I think we could have quickly got there. I cant see it now as they aren't going to refund aur purchases.

THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1226	Posted - 2014.12.09 12:05:00 - [51] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Just like high-sec, really. Except it's literally the other way around in high-sec. People fly overly expensive ships because it's at a much lower risk. More like Titans of Penis amirite? Come play a better game.
g li2 Grupo de Asalto Chacal RISE of LEGION 420	Posted - 2014.12.09 12:55:00 - [52] - Quote As a game financed? We will be forced to buy weapons and dropsuits proto with aurum CHACALES ¡¡ HONOR !!
Mobius Wyvern Sky-FIRE 5500	Posted - 2014.12.09 13:44:00 - [53] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: So, ISK payouts. They've been in roughly their current incarnation for... a very long time. There've been little tweaks over time but they've never really left the ~200k average zone. Let's talk about that. ISK is a key part of this game. Using most gear costs ISK. When you die, you lose this gear and as a result lose ISK. As a result, using most gear is tied into how much ISK you can get. This also provides a significant incentive to not die. Here's the thing, though - If the ISK payout is too low, you get a massive aversion to risk because nobody wants to die because if they do they'll lose precious ISK and be unable to run gear they like. In a way this means that people can't run their best gear all the time, and that's probably a good thing. What isn't a good thing, though, is the balance between how much people are rewarded for risk and how much they are punished for it. Sticking all the way through a match without doing anything will earn something like 80-160k ISK. I get this number from my AFKing 'efforts'. That is to say, if you do absolutely nothing in a match, you'll earn ISK in that range. If you take out a couple of mediocre fits at 30k ISK in a match and go out into the fray, you can start earning more WP and therefore more ISK. If you're a logi or someone able to farm lots of warpoints, that can help your ISK payout noticeably. But is that worth doing? With said 30k fits, which I'm using as an average because that's what a cheap ADV fit (which ought to be pretty much average) will cost you, can you earn enough with them to make it worth risking? By charging into the fray and pushing objectives/making a serious effort at changing the game flow, you are inevitably going to lose several of these. If you lose half a dozen of these, will you earn enough ISK to make it worth doing that? The problem is that you won't. A better than average match may earn you 300k if you make a serious effort and are in the top few slots on the board. In the process of doing this, you'll have lost several suits. Losing half a dozen or so, which I imagine is lower than the average deaths per match, will put your net profit down to the ~100k range. That's similar to AFK profits! And that's using cheap fits, doing very well in matches, and not dying a huge amount. This naturally means that people aren't going to want to take risks and this means that there is no incentive to make a serious attempt at fighting. TL;DR People are risk averse because ISK payouts for taking risks are too low to justify taking those risks. This leads to gameplay stagnating people people are unwilling to seriously fight. I propose increasing the ISK payout and the share of the ISK payout for earning warpoints. Ultimately, those changes should mean that doing nothing earns you either what it does currently or less, but gives significantly more ISK for those who make a genuine effort at winning the match. This is a long OP to be quoting, but I want to point out (at the risk someone else has already done so) that match payouts make no difference for anyone actively engaged in PC. People who own Districts and earn ISK off of them will run all the Prototype gear they want no matter what. Keeping payouts so low that people who don't have tons of money are being penalized for even playing is NOT some kind of holding action against "relentless Protostomping". If anything, giving people higher payouts for actually participating in a match will have more people willing to actually put in an effort when they see PC Corp members on the other team running Six Kin Assault Combat Rifles on Caldari Scouts. If you get killed a bunch, but you're constantly pushing the offensive and the game rewards you for that, what have you really lost? ISK is a main driver of asset use in this game. Reward people for using their assets, and you'll encourage them to be a useful part of the team. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 497	Posted - 2014.12.09 23:50:00 - [54] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k Exactly! The way I play I should see more matches that yield 1 mil isk payout potential. Sometimes I consistently bring links, ammo, and AV which is supposed to be the biggest isk paying things right? Doing these jobs leads to constant death, and only to yield low 300k payouts when you've put out 700k in suits?! Each of those jobs can be done (effectively) from suits that are 35-50k each. If your losses are in the 3/4 of a mill range you probably want to refit your setups. EDIT- And quit dying already! XD You let me worry about my dying lol! Most of my suits are relatively cheap. Around or below 40k. However, some roles require more blood. AV and vehicles come to mind straight away. Tanks and dropships cost a mint, and AVers die often! "Anybody order chaos?"
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5401	Posted - 2014.12.10 01:26:00 - [55] - Quote The rich already stomp in higher tiered gear. Low payouts just ensure there are plenty of STD and militia suits for them to crush. I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
501st Headstrong Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 755	Posted - 2014.12.10 02:37:00 - [56] - Quote I like the system Thook came up with :) Ace Boone's Son/ Danizzle's Friend/ OG GAM4LIfe "Are you a boy or girl?" -Most asked question in Dust Waiting for SWBF
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 721	Posted - 2014.12.10 02:44:00 - [57] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: I like the system Thook came up with :) Thank you. I've been kicking it around for a while. I just think it has the best of both worlds. It gives a baseline for at least a minimum guaranteed payout but it will also reward people who try to help the team. It is a win/win that will raise payouts, but not so much that Dust turns into PROTO514. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 1366	Posted - 2014.12.10 04:47:00 - [58] - Quote Thokk's system is impressive. The multiplier change for gamemodes removes the issue of Ambush not being profitable, which is good comparedbto other variants I've seen. However, being as rich as I am, I do sit on the fence on this issue. On my alt, which has ~25mil isk, I would love being able to run my proto suits as a profit. That being said, on this char which has ~1.1bil isk, thats no longer a concern. So I'll come to my own conclusion that this helps poorer players far more than those as rich as I. TLDR - Thokk's system is best. Also, I will sit with pride knowing I took Arkena's 20,000th Like. The Connoisseur of Weapons. 19/19 Level 5, 19/19 Proficiency 3. Excessively British. Tea is the drink of Gods.
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 723	Posted - 2014.12.10 05:12:00 - [59] - Quote Denchlad 7 wrote: Thokk's system is impressive. The multiplier change for gamemodes removes the issue of Ambush not being profitable, which is good comparedbto other variants I've seen. However, being as rich as I am, I do sit on the fence on this issue. On my alt, which has ~25mil isk, I would love being able to run my proto suits as a profit. That being said, on this char which has ~1.1bil isk, thats no longer a concern. So I'll come to my own conclusion that this helps poorer players far more than those as rich as I. TLDR - Thokk's system is best. Also, I will sit with pride knowing I took Arkena's 20,000th Like. Thanks for the response Denchlad and the approval. Much appreciated. That is kind of where I was coming from. As somebody who seems to be forever stuck in the 25-30 Mill ISK range, I don't think we should go to the bug days of the 1.9 release where people were pulling in 2 million + ISK payouts for a match. However, I believe we can up the payments by promoting gameplay and contributions. This system favors those who are helping their team the most to win the match. Payouts where people are making in that 600-800k ISK range is a LARGE payment, but in reality that is 3-6 proto suits or 1 decked out tank when we think about it. So it isn't so rediculous we are going to throw off the whole risk v. reward factor. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.


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The Connoisseur of Weapons.