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[Request] ISK Payout changes - Current payouts cause risk aversion

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Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18843	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote So, ISK payouts. They've been in roughly their current incarnation for... a very long time. There've been little tweaks over time but they've never really left the ~200k average zone. Let's talk about that. ISK is a key part of this game. Using most gear costs ISK. When you die, you lose this gear and as a result lose ISK. As a result, using most gear is tied into how much ISK you can get. This also provides a significant incentive to not die. Here's the thing, though - If the ISK payout is too low, you get a massive aversion to risk because nobody wants to die because if they do they'll lose precious ISK and be unable to run gear they like. In a way this means that people can't run their best gear all the time, and that's probably a good thing. What isn't a good thing, though, is the balance between how much people are rewarded for risk and how much they are punished for it. Sticking all the way through a match without doing anything will earn something like 80-160k ISK. I get this number from my AFKing 'efforts'. That is to say, if you do absolutely nothing in a match, you'll earn ISK in that range. If you take out a couple of mediocre fits at 30k ISK in a match and go out into the fray, you can start earning more WP and therefore more ISK. If you're a logi or someone able to farm lots of warpoints, that can help your ISK payout noticeably. But is that worth doing? With said 30k fits, which I'm using as an average because that's what a cheap ADV fit (which ought to be pretty much average) will cost you, can you earn enough with them to make it worth risking? By charging into the fray and pushing objectives/making a serious effort at changing the game flow, you are inevitably going to lose several of these. If you lose half a dozen of these, will you earn enough ISK to make it worth doing that? The problem is that you won't. A better than average match may earn you 300k if you make a serious effort and are in the top few slots on the board. In the process of doing this, you'll have lost several suits. Losing half a dozen or so, which I imagine is lower than the average deaths per match, will put your net profit down to the ~100k range. That's similar to AFK profits! And that's using cheap fits, doing very well in matches, and not dying a huge amount. This naturally means that people aren't going to want to take risks and this means that there is no incentive to make a serious attempt at fighting. TL;DR People are risk averse because ISK payouts for taking risks are too low to justify taking those risks. This leads to gameplay stagnating people people are unwilling to seriously fight. I propose increasing the ISK payout and the share of the ISK payout for earning warpoints. Ultimately, those changes should mean that doing nothing earns you either what it does currently or less, but gives significantly more ISK for those who make a genuine effort at winning the match. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 832	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:56:00 - [2] - Quote Pretty much stating the obvious there, but it's the kind of obvious that CCP has seen fit to ignore for too long. +1 Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 8301	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4477	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:06:00 - [4] - Quote Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:35:00 - [5] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. Putting in work in this game only loses the merc precious gear, and lots of it?! Hold the point at your own risk?! There is no reward in it. Helping your team win the battle in the methods afore mentioned doesn't yield any more isk?! And yes, the devs have all forsaken the gallente. Which is fine because it makes it so much sweeter when I kill off their favorite races the Caldari and Amarr :) "Anybody order chaos?"
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:38:00 - [6] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k Exactly! The way I play I should see more matches that yield 1 mil isk payout potential. Sometimes I consistently bring links, ammo, and AV which is supposed to be the biggest isk paying things right? Doing these jobs leads to constant death, and only to yield low 300k payouts when you've put out 700k in suits?! "Anybody order chaos?"
DarthPlagueis TheWise 303	Posted - 2014.11.08 18:38:00 - [7] - Quote friendly bump Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2504	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:05:00 - [8] - Quote Raising payouts won't make people less risk averse. Sure, people will bring out better gear, but that's because they won't lose money from dying in better gear, ie they're risk averse. I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. Imagine it, if payouts could support proto gear, all people would run is high level stuff, putting anyone who's new and can't field such gear at a disadvantage almost all the time. Whereas now, you have to run lower tier gear to build up you capital and find your proto gear, lessening its frequency. Raising the payouts is also a slap in the face to the whole "risk vs reward" idea by essentially removing the risk of running high leveled gear. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18852	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:16:00 - [9] - Quote Unless the payouts were raised incredibly drastically, proto still won't be sustainable. Losing three proto suits will still put you ISK negative for a match even with a doubled payout. That's not really the entire point here, though. The point is to reward people more for taking risks rather than AFKing. You get barely less ISK for AFKing than you do for actually engaging. What really ought to make people less risk averse is people being rewarded more for engaging. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:26:00 - [10] - Quote Agreed, Suggested Numbers for ISK Payout: Minimum = 50seconds in match (same as SP) Damage Dealt 10 WP * 100 Kills * 5,000 (Deaths * (-5000) )> 0 Assuming an average match takes 10 minutes, average WP is 1000, average 10 kills and 5 deaths with 25k damage dealt, this would be: Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 250,000 WP = 100k Kills = 50k Deaths = (-25k) Total = 378k For someone closer to my skills, this would look more like this Average time 10 minutes, average WP 500, average kills 7, average deaths 15, average Damage dealt 20k Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 200k WP = 50k Kills = 35k Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Total = 253k Not sure about the highest ends, but from some of what I've seen: High Time 20 minutes, High WP 2500, High Kills 35, Low Deaths 1, High Damage Dealt 100k Time = 6k Damage Dealt = 1,000k WP = 250k Kills = 175k Deaths = (-5k) Total = 1,426k Just a thought.

Killer's Coys Prima Gallicus 135	Posted - 2014.11.08 20:29:00 - [11] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Agreed, Suggested Numbers for ISK Payout: Minimum = 50seconds in match (same as SP) Damage Dealt 10 WP * 100 Kills * 5,000 (Deaths * (-5000) )> 0 Assuming an average match takes 10 minutes, average WP is 1000, average 10 kills and 5 deaths with 25k damage dealt, this would be: Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 250,000 WP = 100k Kills = 50k Deaths = (-25k) Total = 378k For someone closer to my skills, this would look more like this Average time 10 minutes, average WP 500, average kills 7, average deaths 15, average Damage dealt 20k Time = 3k Damage Dealt = 200k WP = 50k Kills = 35k Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Total = 253k Not sure about the highest ends, but from some of what I've seen: High Time 20 minutes, High WP 2500, High Kills 35, Low Deaths 1, High Damage Dealt 100k Time = 6k Damage Dealt = 1,000k WP = 250k Kills = 175k Deaths = (-5k) Total = 1,426k Just a thought. +1 Logibro, you're my boy
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:05:00 - [12] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k I've probably spoken against raising pub payouts in the past, but these sorts of numbers I can see as being tenable, the multi-million isk payouts from 1.9 release would just be super-inflation inducing, but averaging 300k with the "star players" capping at 5 or 7 seems legit. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:22:00 - [13] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: Average payout should be 300k and a good match should be 500-700k Exactly! The way I play I should see more matches that yield 1 mil isk payout potential. Sometimes I consistently bring links, ammo, and AV which is supposed to be the biggest isk paying things right? Doing these jobs leads to constant death, and only to yield low 300k payouts when you've put out 700k in suits?! Each of those jobs can be done (effectively) from suits that are 35-50k each. If your losses are in the 3/4 of a mill range you probably want to refit your setups. EDIT- And quit dying already! XD Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5220	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:34:00 - [14] - Quote So much f'n yes I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 834	Posted - 2014.11.08 21:41:00 - [15] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. I support the lower ISK payouts for exactly this reason. However I strongly support modifying faction warfare payouts so they easily support advanced faction gear at a win-loss ratio of 1:1. I'm talking ~10 full advanced suits per player per battle. That way people who are looking to deploy better gear should gravitate towards FW while pubs really are just for mucking about in basic gear. Just like high-sec, really.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18860	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:04:00 - [16] - Quote Kensai Dragon wrote: Deaths = (-25k) Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Deaths = (-5k) Deaths as a penalty runs entirely counter to the purpose of the suggestion. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 174	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:11:00 - [17] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Raising payouts won't make people less risk averse. Sure, people will bring out better gear, but that's because they won't lose money from dying in better gear, ie they're risk averse. I could be wrong, but the reason for such relatively low payouts is to make using high tiered gear unsustainable to give newer players who can't field comparable gear a chance. Imagine it, if payouts could support proto gear, all people would run is high level stuff, putting anyone who's new and can't field such gear at a disadvantage almost all the time. Whereas now, you have to run lower tier gear to build up you capital and find your proto gear, lessening its frequency. Raising the payouts is also a slap in the face to the whole "risk vs reward" idea by essentially removing the risk of running high leveled gear. In my opinion, the current payout system is already a slap in the face to the whole risk vs reward premise. I think what's being suggested here isn't a flat blanket increase to isk payouts, it's more of a redistribution in isk REWARDS- to those that deserve it: the people who actually push and don't give up when they're being protostomped, the people who get warpoints and try to win... I can't tell you how many times I've killed tons of protoscouts with my anti-scout fit and really believe I genuinely contributed massively to a victory- only to lose isk because each fit costs about 40,000 ISK. It's a fit I hate, but constantly found myself confined within prior to 1.9... Higher tiered gear is already sustainable by older players- I've never played in PC and I've earned all 100 million of my ISK using nothing but STD suits, but I consider myself broke because my 100 million is my "minimum contingency budget". If I really wanted to... I could easily change my mindset and use nothing, but proto... I could easily find a group of protostompers and tag along and never worry about going broke. I could just use protogear when there is no opposition on the other team. I could just sit in the redline as soon as I start losing and still make significant profit or at least mitigate my losses. Besides... This shouldn't be about giving newer players getting a chance just because they're new players- that's what the academy, starting isk, and starting skills are for. It should be about rewarding good players- whether or not they were new, whether or not they were using proto or standard, whether or not they were being stomped, maybe even compensating them in isk for each death so that way people don't go broke when they die 20 times. Risk is comprised of more than just losing protogear in a match- you take a risk everytime you deploy into match, you take a risk even when you're in battle solo, you take a risk when you go in standard gear against protosquads- that should be awarded more than sitting in the redline and giving up. Not to mention- increasing the frequency of protogear may actually increase the consistency of a player's performance and in effect- their Mu. It can possibly refine matchmaking as players perform using their best gear and so perform their best more consistently, they'll gradually get quarantined into their own more competitive matches. PC used to spill into pubs constantly in the form of it's competitive players, their tactics, fits, and their isk- as protogear and being a quitter is way too economically viable in the face of that. Well, it was actually more than that, is was how you were supposed to play- manage your ISK, mitigate your losses, etc.. You know what happens to the game when all you can do to win is quit? Or when your reccomended course of action is to not try? It dies. And before you even say "Oh, but Dust isn't dead yet"- go look at your blue berries next time you're getting stomped and look at what players do behind the redline. It looks like they're wandering around pretending to play Hey You, Pikachu! They're not playing the game. The economy of Dust514, although not a fully realized economy, still is an economy... It was and perhaps still is lop-sided and imbalanced, there were few people who would tell you otherwise. Look at all the threads complaining about the blue ring and Nyain San for the longest time. In my opinion, people can no longer shrug and just say "PC is where the big boys play, pubs are for lower tier players" because it's already been demonstrated time and time again that PC players and PC corp wannabe's come into pubs and when they do, pub players aren't rewarded enough for pushing back.
Kensai Dragon DUST University Ivy League 59	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:28:00 - [18] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Kensai Dragon wrote: Deaths = (-25k) Deaths = (-35k) (would not lose more than kills gained) Deaths = (-5k) Deaths as a penalty runs entirely counter to the purpose of the suggestion. Well then it can be taken out. After all, it's just a suggestion. The intent was to capture and reward the various roles used while making AFK an undesirable play method.
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 52	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:55:00 - [19] - Quote U have my support arkena Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1238	Posted - 2014.11.09 00:57:00 - [20] - Quote Yup this is it. I don't run proto cuz there too much risk and little reward in doing so Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)

Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 18887	Posted - 2014.11.09 01:06:00 - [21] - Quote It's not so much about being able to constantly fund proto gear so much as it's about being incentivised to play. Don't confuse this, folks. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Currently challenging CCP Rattati for the queef
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4715	Posted - 2014.11.09 11:20:00 - [22] - Quote I want higher ISk payouts. I do not want "let's constantly run proto" payouts unless a game mode that adds a LOT of heavy losses and risk opens up specifically for prototype battles. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 19408	Posted - 2014.11.26 19:25:00 - [23] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I want higher ISk payouts. I do not want "let's constantly run proto" payouts unless a game mode that adds a LOT of heavy losses and risk opens up specifically for prototype battles. This. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake. Glorious pink victory has been achieved.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 5139	Posted - 2014.11.26 20:14:00 - [24] - Quote I fully agree with the OP. Although my average income per match is more like 120K ISK rather than ~200K, and my break-even point for suit cost is about 20K ISK rather than 30K. I get around this to some extend by running a fully BPO Standard/Militia Sentinel fit much of the time which allows me to earn enough ISK to run Advanced Sentinel fits the rest of the time. I have played since Closed Beta and I have only run a Proto suit in about 6 matches (one of which was a PC match) in all that time, as the boost of the proto suit over Advanced is not worth hemorrhaging ISK at such a prodigious rate. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 222	Posted - 2014.11.26 21:02:00 - [25] - Quote I support this, losing 1 or 2 Proto suits in a match, and you've just lost your winnings. Amarrian In Disguise.. Pain is weakness leaving the body. You Underestimate Me, ADS, Tanker, Heavy, Scout, Logi
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1011	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:25:00 - [26] - Quote Where is the blue tag on this? I fully support this. ISK payouts are so broken it's disgraceful. Overlord of Broman
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6227	Posted - 2014.11.28 20:35:00 - [27] - Quote I find that even running a 30K Quaffe outfit isn't even cutting it anymore. Especially the battles I am obviously losing, but still trying. I was very close to running a redline sniper outfit because I didn't see any point in getting stomped that badly and losing so many suits, but I couldn't bear doing that. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
GENERAL FCF Sentinels of New Eden 50	Posted - 2014.12.07 14:50:00 - [28] - Quote I'll vote for this! Too many times I see blueberries sitting around or afk. Like yesterday Only 6 people were trying to fight the whole match while 10 others were taking up our teams space not doing schnitzel! So I free suited it. This is bull though because stagnant players SHOULD NOT earn isk.
RogueTrooper 2000AD Neckbeard Absolution 358	Posted - 2014.12.07 15:08:00 - [29] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I can agree to this. I'm on the frontlines busting my ass, I'll get the most kills and a lot of the times the least deaths on my team at the same time. And it's not like I'm just killing, I'm holding the point until a Logistics or scout can speed hack the point, I'm suppressing the AV so the vehicle can get into position or escape or I'm simply not letting the enemy team overrun our objective with only one other person backing me up. making sure that we keep the point and take the win. Whilst I still don't get paid anything. This is the greatest insult, even higher than CCP's blatant bias against Gallente. Dude. You can be found camping out and imagining that you are doing something with your buddies. Wansktain @ Rekt
Valor Goat 33	Posted - 2014.12.07 16:43:00 - [30] - Quote Bump for the blue tagz 1EE7



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