DUST Search - CCP, scout spawn is acceptable

Ripley Riley wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Scouts are not getting nerfed as a class, but Cloak as you know is getting nerfed. No matter how many scout threads in GD. It would be good to hear thoughts on sentinels, because I believe the proliferation of scouts in PC is a symptom to sentinel/hmg spam, and pretty much RE or shotgun is the only hard counter. Assaults are coming back slowly into PC though.

Quoted from this thread found in the barbershop.

I was really surprised to hear this coming from Rattati. Scouts are currently leading market sales while sentinels sit just below assault and logistic sales*. The idea that so many scouts are being deployed to counter sentinels is chuckle worthy. If Rattati were to release the data relating to K/D by dropsuit I'm sure we would see scouts leading the charge there too**.

Scouts are ruling Dust 514 with a tiny cloaked fist; ranking by K/D, the top positions in all of my public contracts here lately are being occupied by scouts. Players are speccing into scout dropsuits purely to remain competitive, not because it is a playstyle they enjoy. I don't think I have to tell you that is awful, terrible game design.

Please CCP, explain why this behavior is allowed to continue. If I am missing some data here, and that data explains everything, just tell me.

*: Dust Thang. Wish I had a more up to date snapshot of market data, but I'm working with the tools available to me here.
**: If I am wrong then give us some insight into that data; public contract, FW, and PC.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4164	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:13:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are not getting nerfed as a class, but Cloak as you know is getting nerfed. No matter how many scout threads in GD. It would be good to hear thoughts on sentinels, because I believe the proliferation of scouts in PC is a symptom to sentinel/hmg spam, and pretty much RE or shotgun is the only hard counter. Assaults are coming back slowly into PC though. Quoted from this thread found in the barbershop. I was really surprised to hear this coming from Rattati. Scouts are currently leading market sales while sentinels sit just below assault and logistic sales. The idea that so many scouts are being deployed to counter sentinels is chuckle worthy. If Rattati were to release the data relating to K/D by dropsuit I'm sure we would see scouts leading the charge there too. Scouts are ruling Dust 514 with a tiny cloaked fist; ranking by K/D, the top positions in all of my public contracts here lately are being occupied by scouts. Players are speccing into scout dropsuits purely to remain competitive, not because it is a playstyle they enjoy. I don't think I have to tell you that is awful, terrible game design. Please CCP, explain why this behavior is allowed to continue. If I am missing some data here, and that data explains everything, just tell me. : Dust Thang. Wish I had a more up to date snapshot of market data, but I'm working with the tools available to me here. **: If I am wrong then give us some insight into that data; public contract, FW, and PC. My advice to you, playa...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 9329	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:17:00 - [2] - Quote We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

X7 lion Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 397	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:18:00 - [3] - Quote just remember to compartmentalize bs scouts from people who have been doing it since closed beta ;) Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4166	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:22:00 - [4] - Quote X7 lion wrote: just remember to compartmentalize bs scouts from people who have been doing it since closed beta ;) And I do. Some players have been running the Gallente scout since beta. I'm not lumping them into my puesdo-rant. I'm not even all that mad at the FotM scouts. They see a competitive advantage in a certain fitting. In my post, I'm really addressing CCP's lack of movement in regards to scouts' overperformance. Scouts do so many things very well, and too few things poorly. That is not acceptable in a game that is supposedly focusing on balancing iterations. My advice to you, playa...
JIMvc2 The Wanga Empire Strikes Back 303	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:25:00 - [5] - Quote In my view I do like running scouts but not in a competitive way, just for fun. Even yesterday playing a couple matches I just died really quick like in less than 2 seconds boom but I don't mind if I die too much even for KD = Don't care and never will. MAG Raven vet 7 times. Favorite weapon F90 and Highest Kills 78 and 23 deaths.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4166	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:25:00 - [6] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. Those must be some amazing cloaking changes... I'm assuming you think that cutting down on the cloaky-NK or shotgun scout kills will help. Maybe your data shows otherwise, but I'm being killed by strafe scouts with RR, CR, or bolt pistols more often than cloaked scouts. How will adjusting the cloak help prevent the assault-strafe scouts? My advice to you, playa...
X7 lion Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 398	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:25:00 - [7] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: X7 lion wrote: just remember to compartmentalize bs scouts from people who have been doing it since closed beta ;) And I do. Some players have been running the Gallente scout since beta. I'm not lumping them into my puesdo-rant. I'm not even all that mad at the FotM scouts. They see a competitive advantage in a certain fitting. In my post, I'm really addressing CCP's lack of movement in regards to scouts' overperformance. Scouts do so many things very well, and too few things poorly. That is not acceptable in a game that is supposedly focusing on balancing iterations. The opposite is also true. its sad other suits cant do more, its really a fundamental issue with dust that with any suit there is so much that can be made for it but there is only a tiny amount of content to use it on, leaving bottle neck problems as such. Do not contribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance. being contradictory is not the same as being offensive.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4166	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:28:00 - [8] - Quote X7 lion wrote: The opposite is also true. Its sad other suits cant do more, its really a fundamental issue with dust that with any suit there is so much that can be made for it but there is only a tiny amount of content to use it on, leaving bottle neck problems as such. I've often contemplated this: is it that scouts are overperforming or that other dropsuits are underperforming. I think the answer lies somewhere in between. My advice to you, playa...
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 5047	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:31:00 - [9] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. Those must be some amazing cloaking changes... I'm assuming you think that cutting down on the cloaky-NK or shotgun scout kills will help. Maybe your data shows otherwise, but I'm being killed by strafe scouts with RR, CR, or bolt pistols more often than cloaked scouts. How will adjusting the cloak help prevent the assault-strafe scouts? They are adjusting those weapons in a hotfix tomorrow. Not to mention giving native reps to everyone. Details found in this thread HERE. Also, I appreciate you pulling this thread out of the Barbershop for people to discuss. That was very respectful. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2243	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:35:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. Maybe add more of a bonus to the scout suit, while also increasing CPU and PG cost, so logis really have to reduce what they can have on their suit to use a cloak. Oh, and test it in game first. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1395	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:37:00 - [11] - Quote The data reading : more scout suits are purchased : shows some high usage It also say Scouts get killed and need new suits quite often - which cost equal SP/ISK to yours Yet the issue 'Scouts have everything, no downsides'' ??? really??? The majority of MLT weapons having enough DPS to drop you in a blink is no downside at all ??? Also look at the amount of 'Slayers' that immediately became full-time scouts in 1.8 Most of these guys were slaying in Gk.0 logi's prior to cloaks, and it won't take long for them to find a new suit. la penna è sul tavolo THE PEN IS ON THE TABLE!!!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4728	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:39:00 - [12] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Scouts are not getting nerfed as a class, but Cloak as you know is getting nerfed. No matter how many scout threads in GD. It would be good to hear thoughts on sentinels, because I believe the proliferation of scouts in PC is a symptom to sentinel/hmg spam, and pretty much RE or shotgun is the only hard counter. Assaults are coming back slowly into PC though. Quoted from this thread found in the barbershop. I was really surprised to hear this coming from Rattati. Scouts are currently leading market sales while sentinels sit just below assault and logistic sales. The idea that so many scouts are being deployed to counter sentinels is chuckle worthy. If Rattati were to release the data relating to K/D by dropsuit I'm sure we would see scouts leading the charge there too. Scouts are ruling Dust 514 with a tiny cloaked fist; ranking by K/D, the top positions in all of my public contracts here lately are being occupied by scouts. Players are speccing into scout dropsuits purely to remain competitive, not because it is a playstyle they enjoy. I don't think I have to tell you that is awful, terrible game design. Please CCP, explain why this behavior is allowed to continue. If I am missing some data here, and that data explains everything, just tell me. : Dust Thang. Wish I had a more up to date snapshot of market data, but I'm working with the tools available to me here. **: If I am wrong then give us some insight into that data; public contract, FW, and PC. You are taking a quote discussing Scout proliferation in Planetary Conquest and applying it to your theories about Public Contracts. The reasons Scouts are common in Public matches and the reason they are common in Planetary Conquest are different. It is good that Rattati is giving consideration to both. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4728	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:47:00 - [13] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. Those must be some amazing cloaking changes... I'm assuming you think that cutting down on the cloaky-NK or shotgun scout kills will help. Maybe your data shows otherwise, but I'm being killed by strafe scouts with RR, CR, or bolt pistols more often than cloaked scouts. How will adjusting the cloak help prevent the assault-strafe scouts? I agree with you on that. I like the proposal to have a greater movement penalty on Armor Plate when it is placed on Light Frame suits. If a Scout stacks enough plate to have the HP of a Medium Frame suit, then they should have their speed reduced to that of a Medium Frame suit as well. I specifically like this solution because it only effects brick tanking Scouts, without effecting speed and EWar Scouts. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4172	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:47:00 - [14] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: The data reading : more scout suits are purchased : shows some high usage It also say Scouts get killed and need new suits quite often - which cost equal SP/ISK to yours Yet the issue 'Scouts have everything, no downsides'' ? really?. It is true that the data only shows scouts being purchased. I can't see how many scouts are being killed. No argument there. And I said, "Scouts do so many things very well, and too few things poorly." Misquoting me makes you sound defensive. Scouts are made of paper mache and tinkertoys, yes. However, they currently possess the ability to fit a dual tank that eliminates that penalty. And even with fitting a dual tank they still have impressive passive scans from their dropsuit bonuses. With EWAR being the state that is it, a scout can scan down just about everything except a dampened scout. In essence, they gain dual tank and sacrifice next to nothing. Scouts get to control the terms of the engagement; the direction, time, and place. They can do so when they know you are alone or your team is looking the other way. They get grenades and sidearms, just like an assault, so they aren't trading firepower for all of this intelligence. My advice to you, playa...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4729	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:50:00 - [15] - Quote For the record, I feel that if the balance is done correctly the suit popularity should end up in this order: Assault Scout Logi Sentinel Commando Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Vesta Opalus Bloodline Rebellion Capital Punishment. 107	Posted - 2014.10.27 15:53:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. Nothing will help scout dominance until scanning is fixed to not be completely worthless against competent scouts. Right now scanning provides perma scan vs. medium and heavy suits and does jack when used against scouts. Scanning needs to be fixed to be more fuzzy and scanning should ALWAYS win within a certain distance (i.e. a fully fitted scan suit should have ~20 meters or so of perma scan against fully damped scouts, otherwise shotgun/nova knife/remote bomb one shots out of cloak or just from behind will rule the battlefield and nothing will change that). Scanning should be the counter to scouts, not completely useless against them. Precision and Range modules should increase the range you scan enemies at, and dampeners should make that range lower again.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 4020	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:11:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: We'll see what happens with cloak changes. Data is coming. I made a thread about sentinels regarding the sheer number of them. Honestly Rattati my opinion is that sentinels need to be evicted from CQC dominance and turned into a fire support platform rather than a chokepoint camper. CQC should always have been the purview of assault. Most real world meatgrinders happened in the open, approaching the target. What we have in DUST is the opposite, with the grinder happening after you breach the objective. Scout spam is a combination of things, but a lot of it is sentinels being confined indoors with zero detection. I hardly ever get killed by scouts in my sentinel on open ground. It's always inside a building as you lock in a defense. It's easier to catch the cloakers in open terrain. I hate being unable to articulate my points properly. TL;DR: the HMG needs a change in role. CQC fatties was never a good idea. You don't need speed in cqc, just momentum. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4172	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:18:00 - [18] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: For the record, I feel that if the balance is done correctly the suit popularity should end up in this order: Assault Scout Logi Sentinel Commando I can agree with that order. Scout and logi would be very nearly tied, in my mind. My advice to you, playa...
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1536	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:25:00 - [19] - Quote cloak was never the problem
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1766	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:49:00 - [20] - Quote This is two things Scout + cloak vs others Scout without cloak vs others Honestly, I find the cloak less useful, not having it frees up room for a second hive, or a needle or links plus CPU/pg. Any nerf to the cloak at this point just makes me want to run more tanked scouts since all my cloaked scouts are around 300 HP or less. Not much point in running a cloak less useful then the crappy one we have now which is situational at best. And for the record. I main a min scout. Delt for CPM2 CPM1 MISSION : FAILED Moss-delt on skype

Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 182	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:50:00 - [21] - Quote Jack cloak is what injected the issues into the light armor class. The light armor class itself is balanced and this is the reason they are so resistant to changing it, but sadly it looks like they will nerf the cloak out of the game before they are willing to make a proper change... everyone knows scouts should be side arms only, but many covet pseudo skill and because of this the don't nerf me bro is very strong on these forums. FOT6M scouts. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
The Master Race Immortal Guides 183	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:50:00 - [22] - Quote Jack cloak is what injected the issues into the light armor class. The light armor class itself is balanced and this is the reason they are so resistant to changing it, but sadly it looks like they will nerf the cloak so only the cheapest play styles will benefit from it before they are willing to make a proper change... everyone knows scouts should be side arms only, but many covet pseudo skill and because of this the don't nerf me bro is very strong on these forums. FOT6M scouts. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4174	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:52:00 - [23] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Any nerf to the cloak at this point just makes me want to run more tanked scouts since all my cloaked scouts are around 300 HP or less. Not much point in running a cloak less useful then the crappy one we have now which is situational at best.. Here is an interesting point that I had no thought of. By balancing the cloak CCP will encourage more scouts to become "light assault" dropsuits instead That's... worrisome. My advice to you, playa...
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1766	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:58:00 - [24] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Mossellia Delt wrote: Any nerf to the cloak at this point just makes me want to run more tanked scouts since all my cloaked scouts are around 300 HP or less. Not much point in running a cloak less useful then the crappy one we have now which is situational at best.. Here is an interesting point that I had no thought of. By balancing the cloak CCP will encourage more scouts to become "light assault" dropsuits instead That's... worrisome. Quite simply, any nerf to the cloak makes me want to go from my pro to fitting which has currently 280ish HP to one with right around 620. Delt for CPM2 CPM1 MISSION : FAILED Moss-delt on skype
Duke Noobiam Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 226	Posted - 2014.10.27 16:59:00 - [25] - Quote Why not moderately increase the size of the scout's hitbox as well as implementing a proper un-cloaking delay? The larger hitbox would address the super-strafing assault scouts and would not impact the scouts that rely on stealth. How do you kill that which has no life?
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1397	Posted - 2014.10.27 17:04:00 - [26] - Quote Defensive slightly but mostly I just disagree with seeing yet another false thread on Scout balance and having to wait and wonder why Cloak nerfs are expected to do anything other than hurt the Scout role And I mean the actual Cloaked Scout role, not the speed logi // assault-lite Cloak already takes up too much fitting, and it is not good enough Yet nerfing Cloaks solves the 700hp scout suit issue how??? (you realise these do not run cloak??) Rather than advocating killing a role, that yes it's spammed but is still one of the tougher roles to run in DUST If the correct balance was taken (better EWAR on other frames) (less hp on Lights) the fix would be simple. Yet due to every merc (not in a scout suit) just throwing together posts aimed at nerfing Scouts Rather than actually listening to the mercs that run the role before and after 1.8.... And now what you have is due to the overflowing tearbuckets at CCP - A Cloak nerf to encourage all the EQ spam/slayer scouts you can dream of Mercs should have stuck to Shooting Scout with YES la penna è sul tavolo THE PEN IS ON THE TABLE!!!
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 580	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:23:00 - [27] - Quote The cloak isn't even slightly the problem with scouts... Another nice fail Rattati. Inb4 "scrub defending his crutch" I have a lvl 1 scout just because I wanted to try the cloak when it was released (on something other than my commando) & I don't bother using it anymore unless I want to annoy the usual scouts by downing them with a breach shotgun... I don't need 8 shots : )
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 111	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:37:00 - [28] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: [...] Scanning needs to be fixed to be more fuzzy and scanning should ALWAYS win within a certain distance (i.e. a fully fitted scan suit should have ~20 meters or so of perma scan against fully damped scouts, otherwise shotgun/nova knife/remote bomb one shots out of cloak or just from behind will rule the battlefield and nothing will change that). [...] I can agree with normalizing scanning potentials, but giving people a 20m perma-scan is absolutely insane. Not only would you kill nova knife playstyle, sneaking up on a group of people will be completely impossible.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 111	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:45:00 - [29] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: The cloak isn't even slightly the problem with scouts... Another nice fail Rattati. [...] Getting tired of people bashing the one dev we have left, doing more than anyone ever has to make the game better and more enjoyable.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game RUST415 580	Posted - 2014.10.27 18:50:00 - [30] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: The cloak isn't even slightly the problem with scouts... Another nice fail Rattati. [...] Getting tired of people bashing the one dev we have left, doing more than anyone ever has to make the game better and more enjoyable. & I'm getting tired of him making bad decisions... Plus there's a few devs left... Archduke shotgunned me in the back yesterday.



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