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Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 156	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:36:00 - [1] - Quote When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in. I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec). This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively: Commandos and assaults become more viable The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting. Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts. Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
Atiim 13141	Posted - 2014.10.22 16:55:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:01:00 - [3] - Quote I use a scout suit for my sniper rifle because it's got the lowest profile and fits my needs. I've skilled into scout suits purely for that reason, so personally I hate this idea (unless sniper rifles are re-classified to be sidearms!)
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1795	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:06:00 - [4] - Quote Removing the light weapon from scouts would go a long way towards balance, I think. There are other ways, too, but this is one worthy of consideration, IMO. FWIW, I love running dual sidearm scouts, loads of fun and still very effective.
CharacterNameWasTaken G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 133	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:08:00 - [5] - Quote i use scout 24/7 and i even suggested this but all of these rryhard light weapon scrubs got mad and instantly denied it. So now when i see a scout with light weapons they aee instantly labeld a scrub in my book. Real scouts dont need light weapons to get kills real scouts run dual sidearms.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1797	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:10:00 - [6] - Quote lol There are many scouts you see running around with shotguns and light weapons that you would label "scrub" that would waste you with dual sidarms. To label all of them "scrubs" and anoint yourself a "real scout" is ridiculous.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4242	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:10:00 - [7] - Quote Maybe if you made the shotgun a sidearm (Note: I am not a scout). Even still, I think this is a bad idea for any suit class (has been suggested many times for logis, sadly) as newer players who can't use dual prof 5 Ishukone SMGs (or whatever) would just get crushed. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:37:00 - [8] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Maybe if you made the shotgun a sidearm (Note: I am not a scout). Even still, I think this is a bad idea for any suit class (has been suggested many times for logis, sadly) as newer players who can't use dual prof 5 Ishukone SMGs or whatever would just get crushed. Shotguns need to be made more realistic. They're OP cause they can OHK and have such high RoF that even if it takes two, nobody can react if they're snuck up on by a cloaker. Shotguns in real life maim rather than kill most often. Logis with sidearms only would be more logical.
sabre prime Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 625	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:39:00 - [9] - Quote No. The slow blade penetrates the shield.
RayRay James Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 563	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:40:00 - [10] - Quote Limiting Scouts to sidearm only defeats the purpose of fit anything to anything that CCP loves so much I don't have a problem with scouts fitting anything, just like I don't have a problem with heavies using RR and sniper. If someone chooses to make that their playstyle, who are you to say their wrong. Hell, I someone could figure out a way to carry a forge on a scout, I'd be damn impressed. If they could kill with it without being knocked on their A$$, I'd applaud them. I am against limiting any fits based on suit.

RayRay James Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 563	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:43:00 - [11] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. No. Logis are already limited enough, we still need to defend ourselves.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 157	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:43:00 - [12] - Quote There are no other changes proposed in this thread other than the side arms only please stay on topic. Thank you for the link atiim as you guys can see it is very easy to be side tracked. As for sniping it would be a bummer to lose some sp, but a low db can be obtained by any assault and most heavy suits. You could always play a lil scout 8D RayRay James wrote: Limiting Scouts to sidearm only defeats the purpose of fit anything to anything that CCP loves so much I don't have a problem with scouts fitting anything, just like I don't have a problem with heavies using RR and sniper. If someone chooses to make that their playstyle, who are you to say their wrong. Hell, I someone could figure out a way to carry a forge on a scout, I'd be damn impressed. If they could kill with it without being knocked on their A$$, I'd applaud them. I am against limiting any fits based on suit. The scouts have a monopoly on the cloak I am pretty sure that makes this argument invalid despite a dev bringing it up. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
Dreis Shadowweaver Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 440	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:46:00 - [13] - Quote I think that limiting Scouts to two Sidearm slots is the best way to balance them rather than breaking them. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel I've only ever known 1.8... Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2097	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:48:00 - [14] - Quote I do not like the idea of restricting scouts to sidearms and here is why.... No more shotgun, no form of AV - no swarms or plasma cannons. (except remotes which are very situational) It is an arbitrary limit which would kill the role. A scout should not be excelling at the assault role however it still needs to be flexible. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 4033	Posted - 2014.10.22 17:51:00 - [15] - Quote Pick one of the following... Scouts may fit two sidearms Reduce strafe speed and/or strafe acceleration for light dropsuits to that of their medium cousins. Further reduce scout potential HP; how this is done is up to the scouting community. Base eHP reduction, less PG/PG for tanking modules, whatever. My advice to you, playa...
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:00:00 - [16] - Quote RayRay James wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. No. Logis are already limited enough, we still need to defend ourselves. So do Scouts...
jade gamester Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 7	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:01:00 - [17] - Quote Scouts should either lose there rights to light weapons (heavies aswell) with a damage bonus to sidearms or be given they're own weapon class with the exception of shotguns which should be a scouts weapon
Atiim 13143	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:10:00 - [18] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. Logical from which standpoint? Realistic - No competent military would intentionally limit the combat capabilities of their unit, as it's within their best interest that all units survive. Medics have access to the same weapons as any other soldier would, barring highly specialized ones (ie, you most likely won't see a medic holding an AV weapon). Gameplay - Lets look at their weaknesses (compared to Assaults) Low HP Low Speed Low Stamina No Sidearm Slot* Smaller Engagement Window Looking at this list, they're already gimped in several areas when it comes to combat and confrontations. They don't need any more weaknesses than what they currently have, as the current ones are sufficient in limiting their combat efficiency. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Atiim 13143	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:12:00 - [19] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: RayRay James wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. No. Logis are already limited enough, we still need to defend ourselves. So do Scouts... Scouts don't need a focus around defense, as they're eWAR and stealth abilities prevent them from being in a situation where they would need to have a prolonged firefight. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9849	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:15:00 - [20] - Quote Well, it's not going to affect me anyways since I hardly ever use a light weapon. But then again I do use the swarm launchers which often requires me to be fast and stealthy in order to sneak up on a tank or LAV that somehow has a scanning module fitted on it. It's incredible how difficult it is to keep up with a tank even on a fast scout when you know that tank is going to run away at the first sign of a swarm. If I lose my light weapon slot on my scout, I will have no use for the light weapon skill books until I train up assaults or commandos and I don't have any plans to train into those for a very long time. Then there are the snipers to consider. There are sniper players -- no I'm not talking about the risk-averse redliner type -- who are always on the move either to counter another sniper or to avoid detection while close to enemy lines. What about them? Those kind of "productive snipers" who are a rare breed are likely to be scouts as well. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9850	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:19:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: RayRay James wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. No. Logis are already limited enough, we still need to defend ourselves. So do Scouts... Scouts don't need a focus around defense, as they're eWAR and stealth abilities prevent them from being in a situation where they would need to have a prolonged firefight. The Blackbird in Eve Online also a strictly EWAR ship that depends heavily on preventing the enemy from targeting them in order to survive yet they have slots available for both medium turrets and missile launchers in case they have to actually shoot back as there are ships capable of countering the EWAR advantage of the Blackbird. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:21:00 - [22] - Quote This isn't Eve.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:21:00 - [23] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in. I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec). This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively: Commandos and assaults become more viable The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting. Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts. Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts. Minscout here and I 110% agree with this. Each suit sacrifices for its abilities and scouts do not. Heavy only gets a few slots due to the heavy weapon Commando has even less slots for the duel light weapons and equipment slot Assault is the standard to start from for balance Logi losses speed, side arm, and health for its extra equipment slots But the scout Gaines drastic EWAR, speed and regen abilities with the extra equipment slot for a minor health lose that is easily made for by the speed and smaller hit box. IT SHOULD SACRIFICE SOMETHING FOR ITS ABILITIES (EWAR, regen, speed and extra equipment slot) The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:22:00 - [24] - Quote I'd rather see scouts lose their sidearm slots than their light slots. As much as I hate shotguns, they are a decidedly scout weapon. Force the shotgunners to get close. No more versatile invisible shotguns. Swag-suit4lyfe!
G Felix Second-Nature 47	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:26:00 - [25] - Quote I think vastly superior Ewar and too much tank is what really makes scouts such a Swiss army knife. Assault fits would be much more viable at their purported role with better passive scans. Also, what about class scaled speed penalties on armor plates? A given armor plate module might be a 3% speed penalty on a sentinel suit, 6% on an assault, and 9% on a scout. These are arbitrary numbers given only as an example. Seems like it would fit lore from a functionality standpoint as well, the sentinel moves slower to begin with and is able to shoulder the added weight with a proportionally lower penalty. The scout, meanwhile, pays a higher cost because the suit is more adversely affected by weight. Anything is better than making shotguns a sidearm. Dust can be frustrating. (Gò»°Gûí°)Gò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+)
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9850	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:29:00 - [26] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: This isn't Eve. I know. I just brought it up to prove a point. Honestly, scouts need some defense. It may not necessarily have to be a light weapon in particular but some means of shooting back is needed if scouts are to ever run into a situation where their EWAR may not work. Also, I would be extra careful of about buffing sidearms as compensation for the loss of the light weapon slot. Remember the Bolt Pistol and how powerful it is? As it stands, that thing is almost as effective as an AR. Now imagine seeing scouts with a buff to a weapon like that. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 159	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:31:00 - [27] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Pick one of the following... Scouts may fit two sidearms Reduce strafe speed and/or strafe acceleration for light dropsuits to that of their medium cousins. Further reduce scout potential HP; how this is done is up to the scouting community. Base eHP reduction, less PG/PG for tanking modules, whatever. I suggested before to do to scouts what they did to heavies Penalize the use of certain things such as light weapons and heavy armor plates ( the 85,110 & 135 modules) and to be fair something similar for shield tankers. This still allows freedom of choice while limiting the assault capabilities such as a 700-800 hp scout with a light weapon. The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Aria Gomes Wirykomi Wolf Pack 623	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:32:00 - [28] - Quote As cool as it would be...it would **** off shotgun scouts and scouts that use rifles on Manus Peak. If this was gonna be a thing, then they would have to make a separate scout suit for the sidearm only scouts. Same slot layout but two sidearms instead.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9850	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:34:00 - [29] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: I'd rather see scouts lose their sidearm slots than their light slots. As much as I hate shotguns, they are a decidedly scout weapon. Force the shotgunners to get close. No more versatile invisible shotguns. Congratulations, you just obliterated the role of the Minmatar Scout as a dedicated ninja knifer which is exactly the kind of role I dedicated myself towards for 2 years and counting. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 158	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:34:00 - [30] - Quote Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only. Shotguns are right now a scout thing because people don't play commandos because scouts are so op its a vicious cycle lol. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard

The Master Race Immortal Guides 159	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:34:00 - [31] - Quote Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only. Shotguns are right now a scout thing because people don't play commandos because scouts are so op its a vicious cycle lol. As for your AV points (it would be a small loss for the future of the game lol) it would be almost as viable on a assault or even more on a mini commando, and the benefits to the game would be huge. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1808	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:40:00 - [32] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: This isn't Eve. I know. I just brought it up to prove a point. Honestly, scouts need some defense. It may not necessarily have to be a light weapon in particular but some means of shooting back is needed if scouts are to ever run into a situation where their EWAR may not work. Also, I would be extra careful of about buffing sidearms as compensation for the loss of the light weapon slot. Remember the Bolt Pistol and how powerful it is? As it stands, that thing is almost as effective as an AR. Now imagine seeing scouts with a buff to a weapon like that. Scouts have defense. Speed and EWAR and Cloak. Some can even do all that better than any other suit in the game and still tank significant HP (gal, in particular) What changes are needed to bring the scout into balance, if I may be so bold, is to limit their ability to bring all of these to bear at the same time. Now, we can debate which one of these (or the sidarm proposal here) is the one that should be looked at. But a lack of defense isn't it, IMO, because a sidearm-wielding scout still has plenty of it. Respectfully...Leadfoot p.s. I agree with you on the buffing sidarms. Not necessary, and you bring up one very good reason why.
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 18:51:00 - [33] - Quote Atiim wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. Logical from which standpoint? Realistic - No competent military would intentionally limit the combat capabilities of their unit, as it's within their best interest that all units survive. Medics have access to the same weapons as any other soldier would, barring highly specialized ones (ie, you most likely won't see a medic holding an AV weapon). Gameplay - Lets look at their weaknesses (compared to Assaults) Low HP Low Speed Low Stamina No Sidearm Slot* Smaller Engagement Window Looking at this list, they're already gimped in several areas when it comes to combat and confrontations. They don't need any more weaknesses than what they currently have, as the current ones are sufficient in limiting their combat efficiency. The role of a logi is to support troops, not kill the enemy. People who carry a lot of equipment in battle will be given lighter weapons e.g. someone carrying a tripod might only get a pistol instead of a machine gun.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4674	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:03:00 - [34] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in. I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec). This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively: Commandos and assaults become more viable The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting. Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts. Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts. When the Scout class is working as intended, then Rifles are not a good choice. - The delay between decloaking and firing which is being introduced in 1.9 is one step toward having Scouts work as intended. - Armour Plate stacking should be addressed. I favour increasing movement penalties so that a Scout with the HP of an Assault, moves like an Assault. (This would apply to Plate, not Reactive Plate or Ferrosteel.) With these two changes the use of a Rifle on a Scout would be very situational and sub-optimal. I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid. Besides, a Scout with a Bolt Pistol is more dangerous than a Scout with a rifle anyway. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:18:00 - [35] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Atiim wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. Logical from which standpoint? Realistic - No competent military would intentionally limit the combat capabilities of their unit, as it's within their best interest that all units survive. Medics have access to the same weapons as any other soldier would, barring highly specialized ones (ie, you most likely won't see a medic holding an AV weapon). Gameplay - Lets look at their weaknesses (compared to Assaults) Low HP Low Speed Low Stamina No Sidearm Slot* Smaller Engagement Window Looking at this list, they're already gimped in several areas when it comes to combat and confrontations. They don't need any more weaknesses than what they currently have, as the current ones are sufficient in limiting their combat efficiency. The role of a logi is to support troops, not kill the enemy. People who carry a lot of equipment in battle will be given lighter weapons e.g. someone carrying a tripod might only get a pistol instead of a machine gun. Man, I really wish I had moderator powers... I would abuse the **** out of them ruining people like you. Swag-suit4lyfe!
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1374	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:20:00 - [36] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: I'd rather see scouts lose their sidearm slots than their light slots. As much as I hate shotguns, they are a decidedly scout weapon. Force the shotgunners to get close. No more versatile invisible shotguns. Congratulations, you just obliterated the role of the Minmatar Scout as a dedicated ninja knifer which is exactly the kind of role I dedicated myself towards for 2 years and counting. So it's ok to remove the role of Shotgun/Rifle/Plasma Cannon/Sniper/Swarms/Mass Driver Scouts??? Removing light slots changes nothing, a many scouts have proven they can beat you bare handed if they choose to I disagree with this ever being done, unless via a 1 EQ slot suit variation for CQC Scouts Innapropriate Irrelevence...
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 627	Posted - 2014.10.22 19:32:00 - [37] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: I'd rather see scouts lose their sidearm slots than their light slots. As much as I hate shotguns, they are a decidedly scout weapon. Force the shotgunners to get close. No more versatile invisible shotguns. Congratulations, you just obliterated the role of the Minmatar Scout as a dedicated ninja knifer which is exactly the kind of role I dedicated myself towards for 2 years and counting. Little Known Fact: Nova Knives can fit in the Light Weapon Slot. Swag-suit4lyfe!
The Master Race Immortal Guides 159	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:47:00 - [38] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: When the Scout class is working as intended, then Rifles are not a good choice.- The delay between decloaking and firing which is being introduced in 1.9 is one step toward having Scouts work as intended. Right, rifles won't be as good of a choice because the cloak delay will turn cheap one shot kills from exploitation of broken mechanics into the primary play style because it reduces the viability of others. Fox Gaden wrote: - Armour Plate stacking should be addressed. I favour increasing movement penalties so that a Scout with the HP of an Assault, moves like an Assault. (This would apply to Plate, not Reactive Plate or Ferrosteel.) No other issues will need to be addressed if there offence is balanced. Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid. SR and AV are a small loss that promotes versatility increasing the games health. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 159	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:47:00 - [39] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: When the Scout class is working as intended, then Rifles are not a good choice.- The delay between decloaking and firing which is being introduced in 1.9 is one step toward having Scouts work as intended. Right, rifles won't be as good of a choice because the cloak delay will turn cheap one shot kills from exploitation of broken mechanics into the primary play style because it reduces the viability of others. Fox Gaden wrote: - Armour Plate stacking should be addressed. I favour increasing movement penalties so that a Scout with the HP of an Assault, moves like an Assault. (This would apply to Plate, not Reactive Plate or Ferrosteel.) No other issues will need to be addressed if there offence is balanced. Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid. SR and AV are a small loss that promotes versatility increasing the games health. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 55	Posted - 2014.10.22 21:55:00 - [40] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid. SR and AV are a small loss that promotes versatility increasing the games health. Snipers are supposed to be stealthy. Why on earth would they be denied the stealthiest of suits just because scouts are OP?! The sniper rifle's range just got nerfed, so you need to get even closer to the kill zone to be of any use to your team. Snipers don't need to have a really useful suit taken from them on top of that! Assault and Commando suits are no substitute for the Scout. I only use a Commando suit when I know it's likely I'll end up doing some CQC because my flimsy scout suit and SMG are no match for a scout that's shield/armour tanking with a rail rifle or shotgun. I get spotted much more often when I'm a commando though, because I can't hide from scans. I use all my slots for profile dampening and boosting my scans, so I am more likely to see that cloaked shotgunner when they decloak behind me. The types of weapons scouts use is not what makes them OP.

PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 236	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:00:00 - [41] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in. I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec). This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively: Commandos and assaults become more viable The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting. Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts. Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts. This is the only type of scout i use. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) `- Open Beta Vet - 30.5mil sp -` R.I.P Dust 514
Joel II X Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3981	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:06:00 - [42] - Quote No. Too lazy to make a huge post why.
PLAYSTTION GamersForChrist 236	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:09:00 - [43] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in. I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec). This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively: Commandos and assaults become more viable The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting. Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts. Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts. This is the only type of scout i use. 44/4 in a BPO Scout (1.8) 40/5 in a Proto Assault (1.7) `- Open Beta Vet - 30.5mil sp -` R.I.P Dust 514
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 56	Posted - 2014.10.22 22:47:00 - [44] - Quote Personally I disagree with this. As a long-time scout, the light weapon is really what makes this suit worthwhile. I think that your proposed solution to balancing scouts will make them less OP, but also mean that there is essentially no reason to use many scout fits. If I loose my PLC scout, my sniper scout, my scrambler scout, then I literally have no reason to use my 3 favorite fittings. This is what Ratatti called a "Draconian solution". I does what you want it to do but not by making adjustments based on data. I dislike such solutions because it doesn't tackle problems, it makes new ones. Scouts are good because EWAR, and because small hitbox and speed create problems within the game engine. Maybe start with a 5db profile increase so they are easier to scan, and try fiddling with the engine to fix speed strafing. Make it so you have inertia to make that less useful as a tactic. Adjust active scanners so everyone who hates scouts can use them instead of just Gal logis. Make a tactical SMG that is silent, and make other weapons (but nova knives) increase your profile when fired, or just increase your profile in general. Adjust cloaking mechanics. Those sound like better ways to fix things. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 160	Posted - 2014.10.22 23:49:00 - [45] - Quote With exception of maybe the sniper would you agree those are meant to be assault roles? Draconian - relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him. I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol. The other changes you brought up are balancing around around the assault role. Attempting to balance the game around a scout assault role instead of taking it away is what has caused the current issues and is going to create more; it is eliminating the assault and commando classes because as you stated "the light weapon is really what makes the suit worthwhile" over assault and commando suits. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
The Master Race Immortal Guides 163	Posted - 2014.10.22 23:49:00 - [46] - Quote With exception of maybe the sniper would you agree those are meant to be assault roles? Draconian - relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him. I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol. The other changes you brought up are balancing around around the assault role. Attempting to balance the game around a scout assault role instead of taking it away is what has caused the current issues and is going to create more; it is eliminating the assault and commando classes because as you stated "the light weapon is really what makes the suit worthwhile" over assault and commando suits. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
G Felix Second-Nature 50	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:16:00 - [47] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: With exception of maybe the sniper would you agree those are meant to be assault roles? Draconian - relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him. I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol. The other changes you brought up are balancing around around the assault role. Attempting to balance the game around a scout assault role instead of taking it away is what has caused the current issues and is going to create more; it is eliminating the assault and commando classes because as you stated "the light weapon is really what makes the suit worthwhile" over assault and commando suits. Exactly. The problem is that anything assaults can do, a scout can do just as well, and usually better. There is no real trade off, and that's killing the niche where assaults should be. I still think eliminating the light weapon slot is not the best way to fix scouts, more penalties for stacking plates seems like the path of least resistance. That, and maybe a passive scan buff for assaults to help even things back out. Dust can be frustrating. (Gò»°Gûí°)Gò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+)
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9852	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:47:00 - [48] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: I'd rather see scouts lose their sidearm slots than their light slots. As much as I hate shotguns, they are a decidedly scout weapon. Force the shotgunners to get close. No more versatile invisible shotguns. Congratulations, you just obliterated the role of the Minmatar Scout as a dedicated ninja knifer which is exactly the kind of role I dedicated myself towards for 2 years and counting. Little Known Fact: Nova Knives can fit in the Light Weapon Slot. Yeah.... disregard what I said earlier. I misread. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1132	Posted - 2014.10.23 00:54:00 - [49] - Quote I don't see a point for this idea as you can already use 2 sidearms on a scout. If you mean remove the light slot and put sidearm i wouldn't wan't that as my scout is fine Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :) Pls fix SCR CCP
CeeJ Mantis Mantodea MC 57	Posted - 2014.10.23 03:04:00 - [50] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: With exception of maybe the sniper would you agree those are meant to be assault roles? Draconian - relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him. I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol. The other changes you brought up are balancing around around the assault role. Attempting to balance the game around a scout assault role instead of taking it away is what has caused the current issues and is going to create more; it is eliminating the assault and commando classes because as you stated "the light weapon is really what makes the suit worthwhile" over assault and commando suits. Then what is a scout's job? Stand there ewar at things? Scouts have their place, but their ewar is too good, and movement mechanics make it too easy to dodge fire by strafing back and forth. The inability for a non/scout to scan a scout is the main problem. A scout should be able to have an AV solution, or snipe, or engage in CQC with a shotgun (shotguns themselves need to be looked at though). Scouts need incentive to not tank, not be forced to fit only weapons that aren't designed to be main combat weapons. I'm not balancing around the assault role, I'm balancing a suit based on it's stats. A scout can't be scanned by a non-scout without being a logi with high ewar, or using 1 specific scanner. And that's if they don't run even 1 damp. Make them easier to scan and people will run scanners, which makes them run damps. This means less tanky/speedy scouts. Not saying scouts aren't OP, just that this is, in my opinion, a bad way to do it. Longest plasma cannon kill: 236.45m

Ivy Zalinto Second-Nature 376	Posted - 2014.10.23 03:35:00 - [51] - Quote Since the first sp point that ive put into scouts, Ive used almost solely sidearms. I wanted to use the breach ar and it finally feels good honestly. But scrambler pistols are where ive been for most of my 20 mill sp Dedicated Stealth Scout. Scout instructor; Learning Coalition Scrambler pistols are still lethal.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 160	Posted - 2014.10.23 09:53:00 - [52] - Quote Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only. Then what is a scout's job? Stand there ewar at things? yes, and as ivy says "The main thing I wonder about is why people think the scout cannot be an infiltrator unit. Someone meant to flank and take out high value targets." this is a scout and in no way requires light weapons to achieve. What you an many other are playing is a gamebreaking assault class which CCP is trying to balance around instead of removing because of bad input from players along with a little partisanship on part of the devs do to I assume personal investment into this gamebreaking archetype. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
The Master Race Immortal Guides 163	Posted - 2014.10.23 09:53:00 - [53] - Quote Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only. Then what is a scout's job? Stand there ewar at things? yes, and as ivy says "The main thing I wonder about is why people think the scout cannot be an infiltrator unit. Someone meant to flank and take out high value targets." this is a scout and in no way requires light weapons to achieve. What you an many others are playing is a gamebreaking assault class which CCP is trying to balance around instead of removing because of bad input from players along with a little partisanship on part of the devs do to I assume personal investment into the balanced archetype made game breaking with cloak. I favor sidearms only as opposed to breaking cloak in order to nerf an assault role created by cloak. The cloak is a great tool for those that play as a scout and the flow and even the de-cloak time is very important to those that play with sidearms. The cloak change will nerf assault scout it will also cement the assault scout role. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
xavier zor G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 101	Posted - 2014.10.23 11:17:00 - [54] - Quote I run an Assault SMG soon to be a boundless combat rifle on my scout with ishokune nova knives. Drop anything with that combo...unless i make a stupid mistake. I was in CQC with a scrub shotgun scout and i knifed him LOL no need for a light weapon on a scout when most of my kills are nova knife kills scout ck.0 here!
Operative 1125 Lokaas True Companion Planetary Requisitions 520	Posted - 2014.10.23 12:13:00 - [55] - Quote CharacterNameWasTaken wrote: i use scout 24/7 and i even suggested this but all of these rryhard light weapon scrubs got mad and instantly denied it. So now when i see a scout with light weapons they aee instantly labeld a scrub in my book. Real scouts dont need light weapons to get kills real scouts run dual sidearms. Lol, a scout with a light weapon is a scrub? Any light weapon other than a shot gun is crap for alpha damage. A sidearm is great, like the shot gun fro alpha damage. Sorry, but running a light weapon on a scout rather than an assault is a challenge and very unscrubby. Also, bricking the scout to be a light assault, esp. without a cloak, is also a very respectable fit. THIS IS THE VOICE OF RÁN
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge Proficiency V. 160	Posted - 2014.10.23 13:01:00 - [56] - Quote If we remove the light weapon all together to many would cry for respec, understandably, though I do agree with the removal. However we could also penalize the use of light weapons allowing those ones that have speced into them to still use them but not with the same OP fits. (I'm sorry but a 700 HP scout is OP) This, penalizing use of light weapons, wouldn't be a complete cure all but would put us on the right track. *edite spelling The Best Worst game you can't stop playing..... DUST
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4699	Posted - 2014.10.23 16:59:00 - [57] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: When the Scout class is working as intended, then Rifles are not a good choice.- The delay between decloaking and firing which is being introduced in 1.9 is one step toward having Scouts work as intended. Right, rifles won't be as good of a choice because the cloak delay will turn cheap one shot kills from exploitation of broken mechanics into the primary play style because it reduces the viability of others. Fox Gaden wrote: - Armour Plate stacking should be addressed. I favour increasing movement penalties so that a Scout with the HP of an Assault, moves like an Assault. (This would apply to Plate, not Reactive Plate or Ferrosteel.) No other issues will need to be addressed if there offence is balanced. Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid. SR and AV are a small loss that promotes versatility increasing the games health. There are many issues effecting Scouts right now which are causing them to be more powerful than they should be. Their ability to use Rifles is not one of them. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Ivy Zalinto Second-Nature 377	Posted - 2014.10.23 17:18:00 - [58] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: The cloak is a great tool for those that play as a scout and the flow and even the de-cloak time is very important to those that play with sidearms. The cloak change will nerf assault scout it will also cement the assault scout role. I actually personally do not care if they nerf the cloak. I played without it and learned how to manuver to keep people confused and in several cases of mail, irritated. Only thing this does is make me want to run it less and Im sure however they change it I will be able to make it work. The key to success with my particular build is to use the suits enhanced radar to follow targets and strike when they are facing the wrong way. Solo play during ar514 taught us how to keep out of sight quite well. Also the phrase ******* duvolle came up alot... Dedicated Stealth Scout. Pay attention to your surroundings or your getting 2 in the back of the head.
Jack 3enimble Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 451	Posted - 2014.10.23 17:36:00 - [59] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: RayRay James wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Logis with sidearms only would be more logical. No. Logis are already limited enough, we still need to defend ourselves. So do Scouts... LOL the ISK cost of my proto logi is almost 3x the cost of my proto scout
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 165	Posted - 2014.10.24 02:54:00 - [60] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: There are many issues effecting Scouts right now which are causing them to be more powerful than they should be. Their ability to use Rifles is not one of them. Scout - to observe in order to obtain information or evaluate, to explore in order to obtain information, or to find by making a search. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4254	Posted - 2014.10.24 06:06:00 - [61] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol. What you don't understand is that people are not arguing against balancing scout suits, I 100% agree that scouts need work. What is being argued, and specifically what I am arguing, is that this idea is a terrible idea for ANY suit, The "noise" isn't responsible for this idea not getting the attention you think it deserves, the fact that it's a bad idea is. It neither solves the fundamental problem nor makes the suit better at its intended role. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
voidfaction Nos Nothi 616	Posted - 2014.10.24 07:06:00 - [62] - Quote Some scrub thinks an eWAR scout with 249 HP and a Tac-AR is OP, lol Sorry but IMO Scout and shotgun DO NOT GO TOGETHER. Scout and Sniper, Tac-AR, Pistols, NKs yes. Precision long range weapon with pistol knife sidearm is how the other games set them up but with silencers. A LOUD as **** shotgun defeats the purpose of being quiet and sneaky.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 166	Posted - 2014.10.24 08:21:00 - [63] - Quote I think a scout with a light arm slot is op because the cloak gives a .22 sec or more bonus to offence do to uncloak delay which is the reason for the .33 second delay proposed. I would rather see this .22 seconds embraced with sidearms use than the cloak broken addressing the cloak delay will not fix the issue it will make it worse the delay removal planned makes every weapon less viable than the shotgun. With the inferiority range/clip/damage of side arms balancing the class even if you brick a scout it will still be balanced because of the increased kill time and strife is no longer an issue because side arms max range is that of a AR and again time to kill is increased. The "Fundamental Problem" is that there isn't one the class was Fundamentally balanced the issues were injected by the cloak increasing the assault ability of a scout do to the invisibility and uncloak delay in combination with the scouts ewar. John it seems to get plenty of conversation here you should have read some of it lol. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 1170	Posted - 2014.10.24 09:50:00 - [64] - Quote I did dual side-arm scout for the event, went 40/9 Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in these specialties, none compare in all of them
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4255	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:06:00 - [65] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: I think a scout with a light arm slot is op because the cloak gives a .22 sec or more bonus to offence do to uncloak delay which is the reason for the .33 second delay proposed. I would rather see this .22 seconds uncloak delay embraced with sidearms use rather than the cloak broken. Addressing the cloak delay will not fix the issue it will make it worse the delay removal planned makes every weapon less viable than the shotgun in combination with cloak. With the inferiority range/clip/damage of side arms balancing the class even if you brick a scout it will still be balanced because of the increased time to kill and strife is no longer an issue because side arms max range is that of a AR and again time to kill is increased. The "Fundamental Problem" is that there isn't one the class was Fundamentally balanced the issues were injected by the cloak increasing the assault ability of a scout do to the invisibility and uncloak delay in combination with the scouts ewar. John it seems to get plenty of conversation here you should have read some of it lol. I read all of it. Noticed that you've had to say about 5 times to stay on topic. Also: You mentioned the cloak an awful lot while trying to argue about light weapons there. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Mahal Daj Mahal Tactical Enterprises 84	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:20:00 - [66] - Quote What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? See my Post on Crashes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2413361#post2413361
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 166	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:37:00 - [67] - Quote Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
The Master Race Immortal Guides 169	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:37:00 - [68] - Quote Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. All of the benefits brought up earlier in the conversation would still take effect with the added benefit of giving a higher value to light suits. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4710	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:48:00 - [69] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: I think a scout with a light arm slot is op because the cloak gives a .22 sec or more bonus to offence do to uncloak delay which is the reason for the .33 second delay proposed. I would rather see this .22 seconds uncloak delay embraced with sidearms use rather than the cloak broken. Addressing the cloak delay will not fix the issue it will make it worse the delay removal planned makes every weapon less viable than the shotgun in combination with cloak. With the inferiority range/clip/damage of side arms balancing the class even if you brick a scout it will still be balanced because of the increased time to kill and strife is no longer an issue because side arms max range is that of a AR and again time to kill is increased. The "Fundamental Problem" is that there isn't one the class was Fundamentally balanced the issues were injected by the cloak increasing the assault ability of a scout do to the invisibility and uncloak delay in combination with the scouts ewar. John it seems to get plenty of conversation here you should have read some of it lol. Cloaks are intended for sneaking past people to get behind them. The Cloak was never intended to cover your opener. Getting your first Bolt Pistol shot or lining up your SMG while cloaked is just as OP as using a Cloak with a Rifle. The only Scouts I see using Rifles are the ones stacking Armor Plates. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
postapo wastelander Wasteland Desert Rangers 318	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:50:00 - [70] - Quote Just use armor stacking like con against the damps and speed. "Ultimate Pirmatar, Logi extraordinaire and fabulous Tinker since 2012"

John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4256	Posted - 2014.10.24 13:55:00 - [71] - Quote Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? Making it a sidearm, as someone mentioned in the feedback forum thread, makes more sense because then you could fit either a sidearm or light weapon in the light slot, and then choose between a second weapon and a cloak. Still keeps a fair amount of freedom to fit the suit as you like. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Ivy Zalinto Second-Nature 387	Posted - 2014.10.24 14:32:00 - [72] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Some scrub thinks an eWAR scout with 249 HP and a Tac-AR is OP, lol Sorry but IMO Scout and shotgun DO NOT GO TOGETHER. Scout and Sniper, Tac-AR, Pistols, NKs yes. Precision long range weapon with pistol knife sidearm is how the other games set them up but with silencers. A LOUD as **** shotgun defeats the purpose of being quiet and sneaky. without modification I believe my ehp comes to 245, and it is NOT enough to get away from combat a lot of the time if im spotted. The hp isnt the issue, in my opinion its the penalty from plates. It just isnt enough to deter people that want to tank. Take my own suits for example. I dont tank my scout up for armor or shields, i use speed and knowledge of the battlefield to be effective. My in combat lifespan is significantly lower depending on the enemies facing, distance to target as it becomes easier to aim at a medium range compared to extreme close or extreme long. Countering their combat choice I need to be within roughly 50 meters, preferably 10 as I use almost exclusively scrambler pistols. Pretty much any weapon can punch through that limited health I do have in under a second. Factor in that I move 10 meters a second then how the maps are designed. At my fastest fit I can move 30 feet before Im cut down in a lot of cases. My choices are limited to stealth and guerrilla warfare. Now, lets observe this if I were to actually tank my suits up. Kincat skill level 5 confers a (cant remember but Im going to say absolute minimum) of 5% bonus to module efficiency. Now, my complex kincats give me a 12% speed boost, efficiency bost of 5% making it 17% per module. Armor plates reduce I believe 3% movement speed and add quite a bit of armor. One complex kincat and several armor plates negate the downfall of the plates and in fact I will still be moving faster that I was despite the penalty. The plates penalties need to be increased in general I think or have it based on suit size to plate size. A armor plate could more heavily penalize a light suit and be negligible on a heavy suit and this would be rather effective if done right. My own personal opinion. Im a pretty much max skill scout, their hp isnt that great. About the only thing going for my scout in my opinion is of course the scanning properties (both hiding and seeking out targets) and that if I DO manage to break contact in an emergency situation I can recover my wounds and find a way to engage where I have the advantage thanks to the much needed repair rate added to my suit. @Fox: I use scrambler rifles occasionally and ive been toying with the breach ar before it got the recent buff as it appealed to me. Just some thoughts. Dedicated Stealth Scout. Pay attention to your surroundings or your getting 2 in the back of the head.
Atiim 13167	Posted - 2014.10.24 15:04:00 - [73] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: The role of a logi is to support troops, not kill the enemy The role of Logistics is to support allied units. This can be accomplished in a multitude of ways, from repairing soldiers, supplying ammunition, providing cover fire, reviving fallen allies, and providing intel. Though with that logic, we need to remove the equipment slots from all other Dropsuits, as they're designed for slaying, and as such they shouldn't be able to support units under any circumstances. Raptor Princess wrote: People who carry a lot of equipment in battle will be given lighter weapons e.g. someone carrying a tripod might only get a pistol instead of a machine gun. Tripods are typically used to mount long-range weapons, such as a Sniper Rifle. Given how medics are typically on the front lines or right behind it, they wouldn't be using a Tripod (hence what I said earlier about highly specialized weapons). All soldiers are expected to be able to carry a rifle and other gear at the same time, but the Logistics "lightens the load" by not carrying a sidearm, therefore making your analogy irrelevant. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 58	Posted - 2014.10.24 16:41:00 - [74] - Quote Atiim wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: People who carry a lot of equipment in battle will be given lighter weapons e.g. someone carrying a tripod might only get a pistol instead of a machine gun. Tripods are typically used to mount long-range weapons, such as a Sniper Rifle. Given how medics are typically on the front lines or right behind it, they wouldn't be using a Tripod (hence what I said earlier about highly specialized weapons). All soldiers are expected to be able to carry a rifle and other gear at the same time, but the Logistics "lightens the load" by not carrying a sidearm, therefore making your analogy irrelevant. The tripod was an example. The soldier carrying the associated equipment required for a machine gun will be given a pistol instead (at least that's the case in the units my friends have served in, it may be different in other countries)
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 58	Posted - 2014.10.24 16:47:00 - [75] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. All of the benefits brought up earlier in the conversation would still take effect with the added benefit of giving a higher value to light suits. Why should snipers be penalised because some scouts are tanking and the cloak is OP? It would not remove the complaints, as many players will lose out on their style of play. Snipers need to be closer than ever to the killzone, they need stealthy suits to help them avoid being spotted. Making the cloak a sidearm module would work though - you could then use sidearms or light weapons on a scout suit and continue to use the cloak.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 170	Posted - 2014.10.24 17:41:00 - [76] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. All of the benefits brought up earlier in the conversation would still take effect with the added benefit of giving a higher value to light suits. Why should snipers be penalised because some scouts are tanking and the cloak is OP? It would not remove the complaints, as many players will lose out on their style of play. Snipers need to be closer than ever to the killzone, they need stealthy suits to help them avoid being spotted. Making the cloak a sidearm module would work though - you could then use sidearms or light weapons on a scout suit and continue to use the cloak. Try to stay on topic guys. Snipers would not be penalized light suits have the same db and require 2 dampeners to be unscanable making the 15% from the suits worthless as all other scanners are beaten with one dampener. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 58	Posted - 2014.10.24 20:55:00 - [77] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Mahal Daj wrote: What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. All of the benefits brought up earlier in the conversation would still take effect with the added benefit of giving a higher value to light suits. Why should snipers be penalised because some scouts are tanking and the cloak is OP? It would not remove the complaints, as many players will lose out on their style of play. Snipers need to be closer than ever to the killzone, they need stealthy suits to help them avoid being spotted. Making the cloak a sidearm module would work though - you could then use sidearms or light weapons on a scout suit and continue to use the cloak. Try to stay on topic guys. Snipers would not be penalized light suits have the same db and require 2 dampeners to be unscanable making the 15% from the suits worthless as all other scanners are beaten with one dampener. Continued(calculations): You would be able to be passive scanned by proto amarr with 2 amps at 2 dampners if you found this to be a problem a better alternative would an assault with 3 damps gaining higher potential with more slots, armor, and a valuable suit bonus. The point that you're proposing that snipers can no longer use the best suit for the weapon is on topic. Light suits also have lower PG and CPU than Scout. So snipers might not be able to fit everything they could on a Scout suit. And Gallente scouts have the reduction to scan profile which would be lost, along with scan radius bonus.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 172	Posted - 2014.10.24 23:00:00 - [78] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: Blueprint For Murder wrote: Try to stay on topic guys. Snipers would not be penalized light suits have the same db and require 2 dampeners to be unscanable making the 15% from the suits worthless as all other scanners are beaten with one dampener. Continued(calculations): You would be able to be passive scanned by proto amarr with 2 amps at 2 dampners if you found this to be a problem a better alternative would an assault with 3 damps gaining higher potential with more slots, armor, and a valuable suit bonus. The point that you're proposing that snipers can no longer use the best suit for the weapon is on topic. Light suits also have lower PG and CPU than Scout. So snipers might not be able to fit everything they could on a Scout suit. And Gallente scouts have the reduction to scan profile which would be lost, along with scan radius bonus. The changes I have proposed would promote assault roles being played in an assault/commando suit including sniper. Thank you for the correction I did not notice the CPU/PG difference on light/scout and this would make for a harder fit, but you would be able. As a side note it is easily debatable if a scout is the best suit for sniping along with the value of dedicated snipers on the field, but that is another debate. As for the light and side arm cloak this would negate any positive changes to the class. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 172	Posted - 2014.10.24 23:42:00 - [79] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Cloaks are intended for sneaking past people to get behind them. The Cloak was never intended to cover your opener. Getting your first Bolt Pistol shot or lining up your SMG while cloaked is just as OP as using a Cloak with a Rifle. The only Scouts I see using Rifles are the ones stacking Armor Plates. I agree 100% Fox with what cloaks are for, but they will not be used that way with a .33 sec delay or at all with more. So it is between a rock and a hard place we sit. In the case of the bolt pistol and the breach scrp these could be devastating, but are being nerfed. The time to kill of these weapons should still be more than a shotgun since they both have pretty long delays even now. I think people would take assault over scout class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. My goal/our goal isn't to make it so scouts can't kill just that they do it at a lesser capacity than assaults and commandos without tactical advantage. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Vance Vyth G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 80	Posted - 2014.10.25 03:07:00 - [80] - Quote keep light weapons for basic frame, limit the scout frame to side arms. (a¦ê+ä-£a¦ê) n++Gö¦pâçGòÉGÇö _ - (a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ) "+60"

Vance Vyth G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 80	Posted - 2014.10.25 03:11:00 - [81] - Quote dedicated scouts don't need light weapons.. shotgun scouts and snipers would still be able to what they do on a basic frame, maybe just up the cpu/pg on basic frames a bit. this way assaults are more viable? thoughts? (a¦ê+ä-£a¦ê) n++Gö¦pâçGòÉGÇö _ - (a¦Ñ_a¦Ñ) "+60"
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9870	Posted - 2014.10.25 06:45:00 - [82] - Quote Honestly, I think we're looking at this the wrong way. The principle problem with scouts is that that are able to be better at being assaults than the assaults themselves. This is happening primarily because assaults don't have enough benefits to them to make them better at being their role than what the scouts can. So instead of nerfing scouts, we should focus on buffing the assaults. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3960	Posted - 2014.10.25 06:58:00 - [83] - Quote Vance Vyth wrote: dedicated scouts don't need light weapons.. shotgun scouts and snipers would still be able to what they do on a basic frame, maybe just up the cpu/pg on basic frames a bit. this way assaults are more viable? thoughts? Shotguns are light weapons, not sidearms FFS keep up. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9870	Posted - 2014.10.25 07:00:00 - [84] - Quote Vance Vyth wrote: dedicated scouts don't need light weapons.. shotgun scouts and snipers would still be able to what they do on a basic frame, maybe just up the cpu/pg on basic frames a bit. this way assaults are more viable? thoughts? Ummm.... Shotgun is a light weapon. Sniper is a light weapon. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
You Are Inferior Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2014.10.25 13:30:00 - [85] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: Cloaks are intended for sneaking past people to get behind them. The Cloak was never intended to cover your opener. Getting your first Bolt Pistol shot or lining up your SMG while cloaked is just as OP as using a Cloak with a Rifle. The only Scouts I see using Rifles are the ones stacking Armor Plates. I agree 100% Fox with what cloaks are for, but they will not be used that way with a .33 sec delay or at all with more. So it is between a rock and a hard place we sit. https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3897100288/h7F589938/ In the case of the bolt pistol and the breach scrp these could be devastating, but are being nerfed. The time to kill of these weapons should still be more than a shotgun since they both have pretty long delays even now. I think people would take assault over scout class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. My goal/our goal isn't to make it so scouts can't kill just that they do it at a lesser capacity than assaults and commandos without tactical advantage. Thread is a good read gj lads.
Forlorn Destrier Havok Dynasty 2825	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:04:00 - [86] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: I use a scout suit for my sniper rifle because it's got the lowest profile and fits my needs. I've skilled into scout suits purely for that reason, so personally I hate this idea (unless sniper rifles are re-classified to be sidearms!) I don't know that I like this idea, but here's an iteration on the OP - 1 light weapon or 2 sidearms. Thoughts? EDIT: not an either or situation exclusively. Just if you put a light weapon on the fitting, the sidearm slot is "greyed out" until the light weapon is removed. If you put a sidearm, you can put another sidearm on. Also, I think removing an equipment slot is good (I am a proto scout user by the way who uses 2 sidearms a lot of the time lately) I am the Forgotten Warhorse, the Lord of Lightning
Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 58	Posted - 2014.10.25 14:56:00 - [87] - Quote Forlorn Destrier wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: I use a scout suit for my sniper rifle because it's got the lowest profile and fits my needs. I've skilled into scout suits purely for that reason, so personally I hate this idea (unless sniper rifles are re-classified to be sidearms!) I don't know that I like this idea, but here's an iteration on the OP - 1 light weapon or 2 sidearms. Thoughts? EDIT: not an either or situation exclusively. Just if you put a light weapon on the fitting, the sidearm slot is "greyed out" until the light weapon is removed. If you put a sidearm, you can put another sidearm on. Also, I think removing an equipment slot is good (I am a proto scout user by the way who uses 2 sidearms a lot of the time lately) This removes the ability of a sniper to get involved in CQC - unless the rifle sway is reduced dramatically and crosshairs added so you can fire from the hip. Any major change (like removing a weapon slot) would surely just cause major cries for a respec, which CCP have continually said they won't give out.
Skullmizer Vulcansu Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2014.10.25 16:39:00 - [88] - Quote I use a scout suit pretty much exclusively, and I don't care for shotguns. If I'm sneaking up on someone, I use knives, and then I'll use a rifle if someone it too far away, or in an unreachable place. I don't see a problem with that, or think think that I am using a cheap tactic. I was fine with scouts before 1.8, when they had fewer slots, and less PG and CPU. Just remove a high or low slot for each Light suit. Fewer hit points, but suits are all getting innate armor repairs anyway, and they will still have the best Electronic warfare. Maybe it will be harder to escape the eye of a focussed scanner, but that only lasts a few seconds anyway. This game makes me suicidal.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 177	Posted - 2014.10.26 00:57:00 - [89] - Quote Try to stay on topic guys the only proposed change is Side Arm Only scout suits. As brought up earlier basic suits can be used removing most complaints about losing sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I have requested a video from a fellow forum user to show the viability of a side arm only scout(current patch) and with any luck the request will be filled I will post it when if able. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4265	Posted - 2014.10.26 03:18:00 - [90] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Try to stay on topic guys the only proposed change is Side Arm Only scout suits. As brought up earlier basic suits can be used removing most complaints about losing sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I have requested a video from a fellow forum user to show the viability of a side arm only scout(current patch) and with any luck the request will be filled I will post it when if able. The fact that it's viable in certain hands has nothing to do with this. The other day King Ameterasu and a couple other guys from FA were utterly obliterating everyone with dual IShukone assault SMG fits. Doesn't mean everyone can, or, more importantly, shiuld be forced to do that. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 177	Posted - 2014.10.26 08:37:00 - [91] - Quote What would you be forced to do?...(thumbless man?) and it does mean everyone can maybe not in the same capacity without practice, but it is a video game... The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 854	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:02:00 - [92] - Quote Make the shotgun a sidearm, quadruple its CPU/pg, give scouts 100% fitting bonus for shotguns
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1383	Posted - 2014.10.26 14:43:00 - [93] - Quote Min Scout: ASMG / NK ACR / NK Both similar fits, with exception that one excels in CQC the other is better for range, surprisingly in CQC the ASMG will tear through hp while the ACR can't match it 1v1 I have no complaints with sidearm or light weapon Scouts, I choose my style others choose theirs I do have a complaint with you advocating Scouts to be sidearm only combat suits - The Cloak and Scout were intended to be used together - don't like it? try an assault with KinCats - Light weapons are need for multiple roles - Sniping/AV/Suppression/Slaying You enjoying your CQ run n' gun Scout is no reason why everyone else should be encouraged to Innapropriate Irrelevence...
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4270	Posted - 2014.10.26 16:17:00 - [94] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Min Scout: ASMG / NK ACR / NK Both similar fits, with exception that one excels in CQC the other is better for range, surprisingly in CQC the ASMG will tear through hp while the ACR can't match it 1v1 I have no complaints with sidearm or light weapon Scouts, I choose my style others choose theirs I do have a complaint with you advocating Scouts to be sidearm only combat suits - The Cloak and Scout were intended to be used together - don't like it? try an assault with KinCats - Light weapons are need for multiple roles - Sniping/AV/Suppression/Slaying You enjoying your CQ run n' gun Scout is no reason why everyone else should be forced to FTFY (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 177	Posted - 2014.10.26 17:21:00 - [95] - Quote Come on guys I know it is a long thread, but posting with out reading it serves no purpose to the discussion. As brought up earlier basic suits can be used for sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I think people then would take assault suit over playing the scout as a assault class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. If you think scout = frontal assault you're wrong period. OUR GOAL ISN'T TO MAKE SCOUTS UNABLE TO KILL, BUT THAT THEY DO IT AT A LESSER CAPACITY THAN ASSAULTS/COMMANDOS WITHOUT TACTICAL ADVANTAGE. Something that the proposed cloak change will not achieve and hinder all but shotgun users. Nerfing side arms out of the the mix arguably the only play style that could use the advantage because of its TTK/range/clip deficiencies. and plz stay on topic the only proposed change is sidearms only scout. The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 855	Posted - 2014.10.26 18:35:00 - [96] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Come on guys I know it is a long thread, but posting with out reading it serves no purpose to the discussion. As brought up earlier basic suits can be used for sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I think people then would take assault suit over playing the scout as a assault class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. If you think scout = frontal assault you're wrong period. OUR GOAL ISN'T TO MAKE SCOUTS UNABLE TO KILL, BUT THAT THEY DO IT AT A LESSER CAPACITY THAN ASSAULTS/COMMANDOS WITHOUT TACTICAL ADVANTAGE. Something that the proposed cloak change will not achieve and hinder all but shotgun users. Nerfing side arms out of the the mix arguably the only play style that could use the advantage because of its TTK/range/clip deficiencies. and plz stay on topic the only proposed change is sidearms only scout. Ok I'll stay on topic. Your proposal is ******* dumb.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9881	Posted - 2014.10.26 20:22:00 - [97] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Come on guys I know it is a long thread, but posting with out reading it serves no purpose to the discussion. As brought up earlier basic suits can be used for sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I think people then would take assault suit over playing the scout as a assault class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. If you think scout = frontal assault you're wrong period. OUR GOAL ISN'T TO MAKE SCOUTS UNABLE TO KILL, BUT THAT THEY DO IT AT A LESSER CAPACITY THAN ASSAULTS/COMMANDOS WITHOUT TACTICAL ADVANTAGE. Something that the proposed cloak change will not achieve and hinder all but shotgun users. Nerfing side arms out of the the mix arguably the only play style that could use the advantage because of its TTK/range/clip deficiencies. and plz stay on topic the only proposed change is sidearms only scout. Still, I don't like the sidearm-only concept. If I am forced to have to choose between 2 sidearm slots and 1 light slot, it would have to be the 1 light slot. At least this way the scout will still be able to fit one of two weapon classes (light and sidearm) which will at least allow shotgunners, AVers, and snipers a chance to continue using the scout suit rather than being forced to cross-train into a different suit class. The 2-sidearm slot idea would obliterate the mobility of snipers in particular who have to constantly be on the move to avoid being counter sniped. This would result in seeing nothing but commandos being used as the primary sniping platform due to their high EHP to avoid being counter sniped because they no longer have the mobility of a scout. So far there have been only two kinds of snipers in Dust that I have seen during the past two years: scout snipers and commando snipers. The assault and logi variants are almost non-existent. The 1 light slot idea is more favorable since snipers and shotgunners can still retain their roles. They'll just have to make do with either one class of weapon or the other for each unique fitting. This will hardly impact the effectiveness of sidearm-only scouts like me who usually run almost exclusively with something like a pair of nova knives while still allowing shotgunners and snipers to keep their roles within the scout suit. But honestly, I'm not a fan of either of the two ideas. I would rather much see scouts keep both slot types and just buff the logis and assaults directly to compensate. As I said before, if I have to make a choice between the two, it would have to be the latter option. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 217	Posted - 2014.11.08 02:24:00 - [98] - Quote The guys I asked to make a side arm only video is busy with 1.9 stuff so if anyone could make one to show how effective it is that would be appreciated. I would do it myself if I had the utility. If you want to balance scouts you have to reduce there Time To Kill so scouts can not drop someone before they can react. Increasing the time before the engagement is worthless what must be increased is the time between the first shot and death of target... impossible in a shared weapon pool(assault, commandos, and logi) including the sg and plc this is why side arms is the only way to balance them. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Lloyd Orfay SHAKING BABIES FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 181	Posted - 2014.11.08 03:30:00 - [99] - Quote Raptor Princess wrote: I use a scout suit for my sniper rifle because it's got the lowest profile and fits my needs. I've skilled into scout suits purely for that reason, so personally I hate this idea (unless sniper rifles are re-classified to be sidearms!) Translation = "My suit class is completely overpowered and i'd truly hate it if Devs and community made a move to stop the suit from turning the game upside down" Scouts need to act like scouts and not slayers. Slayers is an assault/heavy role and even then pure attack power is still a bad thing in a game.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2779	Posted - 2014.11.08 03:51:00 - [100] - Quote Didn't Rattati already say no...? "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.

Raptor Princess ALLOTEC INC 82	Posted - 2014.11.08 04:32:00 - [101] - Quote Lloyd Orfay wrote: Raptor Princess wrote: I use a scout suit for my sniper rifle because it's got the lowest profile and fits my needs. I've skilled into scout suits purely for that reason, so personally I hate this idea (unless sniper rifles are re-classified to be sidearms!) Translation = "My suit class is completely overpowered and i'd truly hate it if Devs and community made a move to stop the suit from turning the game upside down" Scouts need to act like scouts and not slayers. Slayers is an assault/heavy role and even then pure attack power is still a bad thing in a game. I don't think my suit is OP at all. It's very squishy so it's easy to take me out. I'm also not a slayer. I'm not running around with a cloak, SG and NKs. I'm sitting back from the action with my sniper rifle trying to stop the cloakers sneaking up on people. The scout suit makes me less noticeable than my commando suit, so I can sit in one spot much longer (so if I have a good view of the kill zone, I can pass information to my squad) The 2 slots also means I can carry nanohives and an uplink (which can be useful if the team has been pushed back). The suit itself isn't OP, the way it can be altered with armour or shields to make it have crazy amounts of HP is and the cloak is.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10173	Posted - 2014.11.08 04:46:00 - [102] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: The guys I asked to make a side arm only video is busy with 1.9 stuff so if anyone could make one to show how effective it is that would be appreciated. I would do it myself if I had the utility. If you want to balance scouts you have to reduce there Time To Kill so scouts can not drop someone before they can react. Increasing the time before the engagement is worthless what must be increased is the time between the first shot and death of target... impossible in a shared weapon pool(assault, commandos, and logi) including the sg and plc this is why side arms is the only way to balance them. I understand the cloak is now primarily effective for shotgun users and hope that the cloak tacnet change and maybe the delay would be reverted if this change was chosen to implement. If the idea is to prevent or hinder a scout from being able to OHK someone as you hinted on part I just highlighted, then you're never going to achieve that by removing the light weapons. Why? The Ishukone Nova Knives. Those knives, believe it or not, are more powerful than the shotgun. When fitted on a Scout Mk.0 in the hands of an experienced knifer, fear will grab hold of the enemy. Nova Knives have the advantage of silence. You won't realize that you lost a team mate that was standing next to you until the knifer comes after you too or when that team mate tells you "HOLY SHATNER I GOT KILLED BY A KNIFER WATCH OUT!!" The other advantage is their alpha damage. At max skills with complex sidearm damage mods on a Scout Mk.0, those knives can deal at least 1,700 HP when fully charged. That is enough to bring down almost every heavy on the first hit with the exception of the Proto Bears. Even then, all the knifer has to do is follow up with a single quick slash to finish the Proto Bear off. And believe it or not, getting close to someone is not that hard especially when the Scout Mk.0 is fast enough. Even a Scout M/1-Series suit fitted with one enhanced kin cat and one enhanced profile dampener can get pretty close to someone and wreck people with ZN-28 Nova Knives which are strong enough to OHK most assaults. Hell, they are now effective enough to destroy a LAV and -- in extra rare cases -- a HAV. If I had the hardware at all to record this, I would show you. But unfortunately I don't. Thankfully, other knifers can vouch for me on this. You can also watch a few of Cyrius Li-Moody's videos on YouTube that features one video dedicated to minjas. The only significant downside to the knives is that they are one of the few weapons in the game that do require a lot of experience to use properly which is why I stated earlier on how effective these knives can be in the hands of an experienced player. The only advantage the shotguns have over the knives is the range. So you see, removing the light weapons with the intent to prevent or hinder the scout from being able to OHK will not solve the issue. The Nova Knives will still be there. There is also the REs to consider. So if you want to prevent this with scouts, you have to take away the REs and the Knives from the scouts and I know that's not something you would ever consider. But I see that your main point is about preventing scouts from being better slayers than the assaults. There are many other ways to do this without having to resort to such drastic measures of removing the light weapons from scouts. For example: CCP Rattati is already looking into rebalancing the EWAR of the scouts in relation to the rest of the suit sizes. Follow CCP Rattati's Discussion about rebalancing EWAR here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=180032&find=unread One of the ideas brought up is to make the suit's scan profile increase in proportion to the number of extenders and plates fitted on the suit. This way, the scout has to choose between being stealthy and being tanky. And since scouts don't generally like to show up on the TACNET, they will be more inclined to choose a paper-thin stealth fit rather than a Christmas Tree-lit assault fit. There will also be the introduction of spy uplinks that can be deployed as a sort of motion sensor that can force every scout to dampening themselves and sacrifice even more tank to stay hidden. They are also looking into taking away our ability to see which direction you're facing on the TACNET so you will appear as a dot without an arrow. This way, I won't be able to tell if you're looking at my direction or away from me as soon as I turn that corner. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 219	Posted - 2014.11.08 04:52:00 - [103] - Quote I use ion pistol/nova knives with out a cloak on a mk scout there is a huge recovery difference between it and the shotgun while I can ohk if I miss someone which is easy on a moving target I have very little chance to recover where as the shot gun is effective at range. NK also have a charge up time and are seldom used for frontal assault. I still need to read the rest of the comment and will reply back along with adressing the other comments Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10173	Posted - 2014.11.08 04:58:00 - [104] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: I use ion pistol/nova knives with out a cloak on a mk scout there is a huge recovery difference between it and the shotgun while I can ohk if I miss someone which is easy on a moving target I have very little chance to recover where as the shot gun is effective at range nk also have a charge up time. I still need to read the rest of the comment and will reply back along with adressing the other comments If you ever miss someone when its moving, one trick I normally do which is very effective is circling them at close range and force them to be disoriented. At that point, you have a second chance. Given enough experience, you can pull it off. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
hold that Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 351	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:05:00 - [105] - Quote Scout 2 sidearms Or Scout 1 light
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 221	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:07:00 - [106] - Quote Nova knives also have a charge up time and are not often used in frontal assault so there is much more give and take compared with the shotgun. This change would also address strife scouts in the same fix without limiting the modules they can use as it would only effect range and effective dmg so they could keep the play styles, but in a balanced state. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10173	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:29:00 - [107] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: Nova knives also have a charge up time and are not often used in frontal assault so there is much more give and take compared with the shotgun. This change would also address strife scouts in the same fix without limiting the modules they can use as it would only effect range and effective dmg so they could keep the play styles, but in a balanced state. But overall I don't think CCP would ever consider making scouts have only sidearms. As you can see from the link I gave you, CCP is more focused on addressing the situation through EWAR. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 221	Posted - 2014.11.08 05:35:00 - [108] - Quote You said you would have posted a video so I can assume you are a scout as well right? If so you and I both know ewar isn't the problem with scouts no matter the changes players are not going to see me coming and we will most likely get the jump on them it is what are class is. right? I am not saying ewar doesn't need fixed, but without parity we will always be hard to detect the ewar is not a problem with our class it is our class. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10174	Posted - 2014.11.08 07:03:00 - [109] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: You said you would have posted a video so I can assume you are a scout as well right? If so you and I both know ewar isn't the problem with scouts no matter the changes players are not going to see me coming and we will most likely get the jump on them it is what are class is. right? I am not saying ewar doesn't need fixed, but without parity we will always be hard to detect the ewar is not a problem with our class it is our class. So changes to ewar may change our fits, but it will not address the position of the scout. EWAR may not be the principle problem, but it is part of it. I'm a dedicated scout from the very beginning in closed beta and I seen how scouts have evolved over the 2+ years that I have been playing so I know what I'm talking about here. Another part of the problem is that scouts are able to effectively tank like assaults without much penalties. This is another aspect that the EWAR rebalancing will address. Yet another part is that assaults are just not given advantages to counter scouts. A scout can be an assault if a player chooses and that is the premise of Dust 514 where players can fit their suits however they like without too many restrictions. Removing the light weapon from scouts goes against the premise. The only exceptions to this are the heavy weapons that can only be fitted on a heavy suit. But the scout shouldn't be better than an assault at being an assault. I often suggest that assaults should be buffed by giving them enough advantages over the scouts so that they won't be outclassed by a suit that's outside of their class yet don't inadvertently outclass the scouts either in return. We don't want assaults being better at being scouts than scouts, do we? Believe it or not there use to be a time in Dust when Logis were better at being scouts than the scouts themselves. They had better profile dampening and often times equal sprint speed as that of a scout. Coupled with extra equipment slots, light weapons and sidearms, and sometimes pretty good precision with a lot of slots available, they were the go-to suit for anything. Because of this, they even outclassed assaults in addition to scouts. Eventually they got hit pretty heavy with a nerf that they lost their sidearm slot among other things. I'm still not sure if this was a good idea at all. I mean, taking away a weapon slot just because they were OP is kind of overdoing it. But then again, CCP is historically known to overuse the nerf bat without much aiming. This is why I'm hoping Rattati will be able to find a better solution to all this. I mean, if we're going to be removing light weapon slots from scouts, we might as well remove slots from other classes as well. Heavies have no equipment. Logis have no sidearms. If scouts lose their lights, what would that mean for the assault? Are you willing to take away dedicated slots from an assault? It's only fair, right? On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 223	Posted - 2014.11.08 07:32:00 - [110] - Quote There is very very little difference between replacing the light weapon slot with a side arm and forcing scouts to fit certain modules because of over the top penalties. Especially when sidearms would make such a small difference to the scout class. As far as scouts tanking we both know our hp doesn't matter we don't get shot if we are sneaky although it is nice to have a little padding. Even with speed tanked sg scouts and shield tanked strife scouts the hp is pretty minor. Shield tanks strife scouts rely on ttk/regain not hp and speed tankers rely on ttk/speed. With all of your experience I would assume you already knew this so get real bro. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10175	Posted - 2014.11.08 08:44:00 - [111] - Quote Blueprint For Murder wrote: There is very very little difference between replacing the light weapon slot with a side arm and forcing scouts to fit certain modules because of over the top penalties. Especially when sidearms would make such a small difference to the scout class. As far as scouts tanking we both know our hp doesn't matter we don't get shot if we are sneaky although it is nice to have a little padding. Even with speed tanked sg scouts and shield tanked strife scouts the hp is pretty minor. Shield tanks strife scouts rely on ttk/regain not hp and speed tankers rely on ttk/speed. With all of your experience I would assume you already knew this so get real bro. This isn't taking away a slot because scouts are op this is replacing a slot in order to balance them. Since you and I both play with side arms we both know how strong it is and how it is a very small nerf unless you are a sg user because kn kills are much harder to get. Clearly your mind is dead set on this and it was a waste of my time arguing with you. I hate shotgun scouts as much as the next guy but I will not stoop so low as to go your way. This debate is going nowhere (as if it ever did). Have a nice day. PS: This is my last comment for this thread. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 227	Posted - 2014.11.08 15:35:00 - [112] - Quote You seem a little upset. I do not hate sg scouts I think it is just unbalanced along with everyone else, and stooping so low as to propose a effective change... god forbid. I mean the dev are even talking about creating the mod/class penalty system which will way more restrictive then sidearms if it can even be made effective; in our discussion he have addressed all posted issues and they all come back to ttk which mod/penalty will not effect... just to balance scouts lol. They can keep balancing around scouts but it is a waste of our time as customers because we could have a better game now, and a huge waste of CCPs money. I did enjoy our discussion thank you for your time m8 you have a good day as well. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1601	Posted - 2014.11.08 16:18:00 - [113] - Quote binary ewar mechanic has to go dampening and suit profile base values stronger than precision mods/ suits stats has to go assault need some kind of buff to make them stand out as assault
DEZKA DIABLO THE FOOTCLAN 773	Posted - 2014.11.08 16:19:00 - [114] - Quote All you noobs forget SCOUT A AND B VARIANT? SCOUT A L S ONE EQUIPMENT SCOUT B L 2 EQUIPMENT NUFF SAID, SO QUIT MAKING STUPID THREADS AND JUST BRING THIS BACK. end of thread, your welcome. 07. DONT EVER COMPLAIN, USE CAPS LOCK OR POINT OUT WHAT BROKEN WITH OUR GAME OR WE WILL DEFINITELY BAN YOUR ASS FOR 6 MONTHS
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 227	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:06:00 - [115] - Quote Dezka you should read the thread bro it is pretty good and do try to stay on topic I am sure what you have posted will get the discussion it deserves in the thread you created for it. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
Ace Boone 365	Posted - 2014.11.08 17:11:00 - [116] - Quote You scout QQers are going to get the scout completely castrated lol. I hope Rattati doesn't give in, if he does, oh well, I'll just buy another respec Only loyal to the republic.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 435	Posted - 2014.11.08 19:47:00 - [117] - Quote Ace Boone wrote: You scout QQers are going to get the scout completely castrated lol. I hope Rattati doesn't give in, if he does, oh well, I'll just buy another respec Should it happen , the "scout community" will have no-one to blame but themselves. The Barbershop is not too big to fail. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
DarthPlagueis TheWise 309	Posted - 2014.11.08 22:08:00 - [118] - Quote Or just take their sidearm away. Bolas deploys tank in strategic location
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 233	Posted - 2014.11.08 23:12:00 - [119] - Quote There is a specific reason for replacing the light weapon slot with a side arm slot if you read the thread it will be clear. Each and every complaint has been acknowledged and addressed if you find something we have missed please add it and I will do my best to address it also. The masses will reject any theory, however reasonable it may be, if it lays a restriction upon the appetite. - Ellen G. White I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses. - Johannes Kepler Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
TheD1CK Dead Man's Game RUST415 1483	Posted - 2014.11.10 11:33:00 - [120] - Quote This still going on ? Scouts don't all want sidearm only it's that simple The only suit that should be restricted to sidearm only is a 'Pilot' suit Sidearms completely change your playstyle and work best in close quarters, Sidearm scouts are good But way too much limitation on what you can do, where you can go and who you can engage... It is a choice that should be kept as it is... a choice.. not a requirement for Scouts - Rifles - #1 option dealing with varied infantry frames - Mass Driver - The cruelest Scouts are the ones hunting their own kind - Shotgun - BLAP !!! if you are taking a light frame to a heavy fight you'll want one - Snipers - not good HP wise, but ideal for 'stealth' and picking up targets - Plasma/Swarms - HAV/ADS wreck scouts... So Scouts adapt to AV situations I run dedicated Knife scouts, usually a Rifle or a Plasma Cannon though in CQ fights SMG or Flaylock and Knives can be very effective and enjoyable fits to run... but where as the 5 options above vary what you can do a sidearm scout is limited to - CQC Flank/Gank (the Shotgun role with less alpha DMG) - Camping.... sitting in one area, watching tacnet.. picking mercs off... I enjoy your posts, but I think as a Sidearm Scout you are ignoring other playstyles.. with the EWAR nerf (cloak = no passives) Scouts are in a better place... The only thing lacking balance is EWAR modules, and bonuses, leaving the Gal/Cal at an advantage

Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 240	Posted - 2014.11.10 13:29:00 - [121] - Quote I want to start with keep in mind the changes they have made and the changes they plan to make e.g. breaking the cloak in order to nerf shotgun scouts which in turn made it primarily used by alpha weapon users(Bargain with the devil). I am not saying there is no loss but these play styles will remain intact only within balanced parameter in both the scout and light suits. For alpha damage you have nova knifes and bolt pistol for strife you have bolt pistol, SMG, and mag sec for snipers, AV, plasma, rifles, and even shotgunners you have light suits since they would remain the same. As for the "#1 option dealing with varied infantry frames" you will not be able to be a strong frontal assault unit in a scout suit, but we don't need to be because we at least for now we have great ewar along with a ton of other advantages. The most important thing about this is then the devs could balance the class to fit our/their needs without a large effect on other classes. Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk


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