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Blueprint For Murder
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156
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Posted - 2014.10.22 16:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
When ever I bring this up It just gets instantly buried and with so many scout threads already I wanted to fit in.
I understand the tryhards need to be op to get kills, but what I don't understand is why the classic scouts don't speak up about the scouts ability without cloak or with side arms only I mean I can't be the only one that thinks this is just as viable and would not require any change to the cloak. Issues of assault cloak would be taken away without reducing our CQC killing power, and with the cloak we can just avoid long range combat (unless using bolt or mag sec).
This change would effect so many aspects of the game positively:
Commandos and assaults become more viable
The SG gains a role that isn't a cheap trick holding doorways and with commando assaulting.
Scanners become more viable because lone scouts will be less likely to massacre a team
The cloak would remain flowing, but be balanced because of the dps/range/clip deficiencies of side arms
I play a no cloak side arm only scout so the upcoming changes don't effect me because I nerfed myself lol. When I have used cloak the sneakier nature of it is pretty fun and it flows really well once you have an adv or higher cloak even when using sidearms only. I would hate to see that play style ruined it is kind of like the story of Judgment of Solomon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_az3eNb0fI The tryhards vs the real scouts.
Please stay on topic I don't care about your ideas I have read them in the other 12 recent threads about scouts not that your ideas are not valid, but because I just don't think this gets any real consideration because the tryhards are quick to bury or derail any attempt to have a real discussion about side arms only scouts.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
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Blueprint For Murder
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157
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Posted - 2014.10.22 17:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
There are no other changes proposed in this thread other than the side arms only please stay on topic. Thank you for the link atiim as you guys can see it is very easy to be side tracked.
As for sniping it would be a bummer to lose some sp, but a low db can be obtained by any assault and most heavy suits. You could always play a lil scout 8D
RayRay James wrote:Limiting Scouts to sidearm only defeats the purpose of fit anything to anything that CCP loves so much
I don't have a problem with scouts fitting anything, just like I don't have a problem with heavies using RR and sniper. If someone chooses to make that their playstyle, who are you to say their wrong.
Hell, I someone could figure out a way to carry a forge on a scout, I'd be damn impressed. If they could kill with it without being knocked on their A$$, I'd applaud them.
I am against limiting any fits based on suit.
The scouts have a monopoly on the cloak I am pretty sure that makes this argument invalid despite a dev bringing it up.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
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Blueprint For Murder
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158
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Posted - 2014.10.22 18:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only. Shotguns are right now a scout thing because people don't play commandos because scouts are so op its a vicious cycle lol.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
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Blueprint For Murder
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159
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Posted - 2014.10.22 21:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote: When the Scout class is working as intended, then Rifles are not a good choice.- The delay between decloaking and firing which is being introduced in 1.9 is one step toward having Scouts work as intended.
Right, rifles won't be as good of a choice because the cloak delay will turn cheap one shot kills from exploitation of broken mechanics into the primary play style because it reduces the viability of others.
Fox Gaden wrote:- Armour Plate stacking should be addressed. I favour increasing movement penalties so that a Scout with the HP of an Assault, moves like an Assault. (This would apply to Plate, not Reactive Plate or Ferrosteel.)
No other issues will need to be addressed if there offence is balanced.
Fox Gaden wrote: I donGÇÖt see any reason why we would want to prevent Scouts from using Sniper Rifles, Mass Drivers, and Plasma Cannons. Preventing Scouts from using Shotguns is just stupid.
SR and AV are a small loss that promotes versatility increasing the games health.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
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Blueprint For Murder
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160
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Posted - 2014.10.22 23:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
With exception of maybe the sniper would you agree those are meant to be assault roles? Draconian - relating to, or characteristic of Draco or the severe code of laws held to have been framed by him. I don't understand how balancing an obviously over powered class is severe lol.
The other changes you brought up are balancing around around the assault role. Attempting to balance the game around a scout assault role instead of taking it away is what has caused the current issues and is going to create more; it is eliminating the assault and commando classes because as you stated "the light weapon is really what makes the suit worthwhile" over assault and commando suits.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Im a wizard
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Blueprint For Murder
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160
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Posted - 2014.10.23 09:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Stay on topic please the only proposed change is making scouts side arm only.
Then what is a scout's job? Stand there ewar at things? yes, and as ivy says "The main thing I wonder about is why people think the scout cannot be an infiltrator unit. Someone meant to flank and take out high value targets." this is a scout and in no way requires light weapons to achieve. What you an many other are playing is a gamebreaking assault class which CCP is trying to balance around instead of removing because of bad input from players along with a little partisanship on part of the devs do to I assume personal investment into this gamebreaking archetype.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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165
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Posted - 2014.10.24 02:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:There are many issues effecting Scouts right now which are causing them to be more powerful than they should be. Their ability to use Rifles is not one of them.
Scout - to observe in order to obtain information or evaluate, to explore in order to obtain information, or to find by making a search.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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166
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Posted - 2014.10.24 08:21:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think a scout with a light arm slot is op because the cloak gives a .22 sec or more bonus to offence do to uncloak delay which is the reason for the .33 second delay proposed. I would rather see this .22 seconds embraced with sidearms use than the cloak broken addressing the cloak delay will not fix the issue it will make it worse the delay removal planned makes every weapon less viable than the shotgun.
With the inferiority range/clip/damage of side arms balancing the class even if you brick a scout it will still be balanced because of the increased kill time and strife is no longer an issue because side arms max range is that of a AR and again time to kill is increased.
The "Fundamental Problem" is that there isn't one the class was Fundamentally balanced the issues were injected by the cloak increasing the assault ability of a scout do to the invisibility and uncloak delay in combination with the scouts ewar.
John it seems to get plenty of conversation here you should have read some of it lol.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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166
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Posted - 2014.10.24 13:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mahal Daj wrote:What if we make the cloak a light weapon module?
That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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170
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Posted - 2014.10.24 17:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Raptor Princess wrote:Blueprint For Murder wrote:Mahal Daj wrote:What if we make the cloak a light weapon module? That is some great out of the box thinking, but since sidearms require 2 to use in most cases lets alter it a bit. Lets say that the side arm only change only effects the scout suit it self leaving the light suit as is. This would remove any complaints about Anti vehicle, Sniper Rifle, and Assault loss. All of the benefits brought up earlier in the conversation would still take effect with the added benefit of giving a higher value to light suits. Why should snipers be penalised because some scouts are tanking and the cloak is OP? It would not remove the complaints, as many players will lose out on their style of play. Snipers need to be closer than ever to the killzone, they need stealthy suits to help them avoid being spotted. Making the cloak a sidearm module would work though - you could then use sidearms or light weapons on a scout suit and continue to use the cloak.
Try to stay on topic guys.
Snipers would not be penalized light suits have the same db and require 2 dampeners to be unscanable making the 15% from the suits worthless as all other scanners are beaten with one dampener.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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172
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Posted - 2014.10.24 23:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Raptor Princess wrote:Blueprint For Murder wrote:Try to stay on topic guys.
Snipers would not be penalized light suits have the same db and require 2 dampeners to be unscanable making the 15% from the suits worthless as all other scanners are beaten with one dampener.
Continued(calculations): You would be able to be passive scanned by proto amarr with 2 amps at 2 dampners if you found this to be a problem a better alternative would an assault with 3 damps gaining higher potential with more slots, armor, and a valuable suit bonus. The point that you're proposing that snipers can no longer use the best suit for the weapon is on topic. Light suits also have lower PG and CPU than Scout. So snipers might not be able to fit everything they could on a Scout suit. And Gallente scouts have the reduction to scan profile which would be lost, along with scan radius bonus.
The changes I have proposed would promote assault roles being played in an assault/commando suit including sniper. Thank you for the correction I did not notice the CPU/PG difference on light/scout and this would make for a harder fit, but you would be able.
As a side note it is easily debatable if a scout is the best suit for sniping along with the value of dedicated snipers on the field, but that is another debate. As for the light and side arm cloak this would negate any positive changes to the class.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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172
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Posted - 2014.10.24 23:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote: Cloaks are intended for sneaking past people to get behind them. The Cloak was never intended to cover your opener.
Getting your first Bolt Pistol shot or lining up your SMG while cloaked is just as OP as using a Cloak with a Rifle.
The only Scouts I see using Rifles are the ones stacking Armor Plates.
I agree 100% Fox with what cloaks are for, but they will not be used that way with a .33 sec delay or at all with more. So it is between a rock and a hard place we sit.
In the case of the bolt pistol and the breach scrp these could be devastating, but are being nerfed. The time to kill of these weapons should still be more than a shotgun since they both have pretty long delays even now. I think people would take assault over scout class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. My goal/our goal isn't to make it so scouts can't kill just that they do it at a lesser capacity than assaults and commandos without tactical advantage.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.10.26 00:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Try to stay on topic guys the only proposed change is Side Arm Only scout suits.
As brought up earlier basic suits can be used removing most complaints about losing sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits.
I have requested a video from a fellow forum user to show the viability of a side arm only scout(current patch) and with any luck the request will be filled I will post it when if able.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.10.26 08:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
What would you be forced to do?...(thumbless man?) and it does mean everyone can maybe not in the same capacity without practice, but it is a video game...
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.10.26 17:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Come on guys I know it is a long thread, but posting with out reading it serves no purpose to the discussion.
As brought up earlier basic suits can be used for sniper/anti-vehicle/assault fits in a low profile high speed suit. While light suits have less cpu/pg they are able to be fit most likely at a smaller capacity than assault/commando suits. I think people then would take assault suit over playing the scout as a assault class because of not only the TTK but range and clip size as stated earlier the class would require more clever choices instead of running up and shotgunning someone. If you think scout = frontal assault you're wrong period.
OUR GOAL ISN'T TO MAKE SCOUTS UNABLE TO KILL, BUT THAT THEY DO IT AT A LESSER CAPACITY THAN ASSAULTS/COMMANDOS WITHOUT TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.
Something that the proposed cloak change will not achieve and hinder all but shotgun users. Nerfing side arms out of the the mix arguably the only play style that could use the advantage because of its TTK/range/clip deficiencies.
and plz stay on topic the only proposed change is sidearms only scout.
The miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 02:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
The guys I asked to make a side arm only video is busy with 1.9 stuff so if anyone could make one to show how effective it is that would be appreciated. I would do it myself if I had the utility.
If you want to balance scouts you have to reduce there Time To Kill so scouts can not drop someone before they can react. Increasing the time before the engagement is worthless what must be increased is the time between the first shot and death of target... impossible in a shared weapon pool(assault, commandos, and logi) including the sg and plc this is why side arms is the only way to balance them.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 04:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I use ion pistol/nova knives with out a cloak on a mk scout there is a huge recovery difference between it and the shotgun while I can ohk if I miss someone which is easy on a moving target I have very little chance to recover where as the shot gun is effective at range. NK also have a charge up time and are seldom used for frontal assault. I still need to read the rest of the comment and will reply back along with adressing the other comments
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 05:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Nova knives also have a charge up time and are not often used in frontal assault so there is much more give and take compared with the shotgun. This change would also address strife scouts in the same fix without limiting the modules they can use as it would only effect range and effective dmg so they could keep the play styles, but in a balanced state.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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221
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Posted - 2014.11.08 05:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
You said you would have posted a video so I can assume you are a scout as well right? If so you and I both know ewar isn't the problem with scouts no matter the changes players are not going to see me coming and we will most likely get the jump on them it is what are class is. right? I am not saying ewar doesn't need fixed, but without parity we will always be hard to detect the ewar is not a problem with our class it is our class.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 07:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
There is very very little difference between replacing the light weapon slot with a side arm and forcing scouts to fit certain modules because of over the top penalties. Especially when sidearms would make such a small difference to the scout class. As far as scouts tanking we both know our hp doesn't matter we don't get shot if we are sneaky although it is nice to have a little padding. Even with speed tanked sg scouts and shield tanked strife scouts the hp is pretty minor. Shield tanks strife scouts rely on ttk/regain not hp and speed tankers rely on ttk/speed. With all of your experience I would assume you already knew this so get real bro.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 15:35:00 -
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You seem a little upset. I do not hate sg scouts I think it is just unbalanced along with everyone else, and stooping so low as to propose a effective change... god forbid. I mean the dev are even talking about creating the mod/class penalty system which will way more restrictive then sidearms if it can even be made effective; in our discussion he have addressed all posted issues and they all come back to ttk which mod/penalty will not effect... just to balance scouts lol. They can keep balancing around scouts but it is a waste of our time as customers because we could have a better game now, and a huge waste of CCPs money. I did enjoy our discussion thank you for your time m8 you have a good day as well.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 17:06:00 -
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Dezka you should read the thread bro it is pretty good and do try to stay on topic I am sure what you have posted will get the discussion it deserves in the thread you created for it.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.08 23:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
There is a specific reason for replacing the light weapon slot with a side arm slot if you read the thread it will be clear. Each and every complaint has been acknowledged and addressed if you find something we have missed please add it and I will do my best to address it also.
The masses will reject any theory, however reasonable it may be, if it lays a restriction upon the appetite. - Ellen G. White
I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses. - Johannes Kepler
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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Blueprint For Murder
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Posted - 2014.11.10 13:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
I want to start with keep in mind the changes they have made and the changes they plan to make e.g. breaking the cloak in order to nerf shotgun scouts which in turn made it primarily used by alpha weapon users(Bargain with the devil).
I am not saying there is no loss but these play styles will remain intact only within balanced parameter in both the scout and light suits. For alpha damage you have nova knifes and bolt pistol for strife you have bolt pistol, SMG, and mag sec for snipers, AV, plasma, rifles, and even shotgunners you have light suits since they would remain the same. As for the "#1 option dealing with varied infantry frames" you will not be able to be a strong frontal assault unit in a scout suit, but we don't need to be because we at least for now we have great ewar along with a ton of other advantages.
The most important thing about this is then the devs could balance the class to fit our/their needs without a large effect on other classes.
Check out the film Flame and Citron it is amazing! Wizard Talk
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