From the air: There is no escape from swarms.

If you are a suck pilot.

Lvl 5 Minmando, 2 complex DMG mods, Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher (prof 3 or 4)

I generally find that most sensible pilots have got the **** out of dodge before i can get the 3rd volley off... and outside of militia DS most ADS I see can tank 3 volleys easily.

ADS can still hit that afterburner, increase altitude and outrun swarms.

Reserved.

The only issue with swarms now is the damage profile of swarms. The minus 15-20% damage to shields means that vs gunnlogi and pythons ads damage is far too minimal, proficiency is worthless and the ads or hav has plenty of time to escape. I bet that for every 10 armour tanking vehicle I only take 1 gunnlogi and never a python (min com 5, 2 complex damage mods, prof 4 swarms, rapid reload 4 using wiyrkomis) perhaps alter damage profile to neutral and change proficiency to a simple flat out damage increase or perhaps +15m to lock range

Reserved.

reserved.

reserved

table for 2. 6:30 PM please, that should get us enough time to change after work.

If you are a suck pilot.

Lvl 5 Minmando, 2 complex DMG mods, Wiyrkomi Swarm Launcher (prof 3 or 4)

I generally find that most sensible pilots have got the **** out of dodge before i can get the 3rd volley off... and outside of militia DS most ADS I see can tank 3 volleys easily.

ADS can still hit that afterburner, increase altitude and outrun swarms.

reserved

awaiting some sort of fancy comment

You're doing it wrong then.

Now personally I have become accustom to the new order of things, but still, the role is very unrewarding in terms of WP and for the love of god we NEED TO FIX GOD DAMN DROPSHIP COLLISION.
Because the damage output of ADS`s has been nerfed so much, almost nobody fights in the skies anymore, if they see a shield ADS and they are in armour, they ram you every time.

Its a gaping hole in gameplay that needs to be fixed. It should tell you everything you need to know about Air VS Air.

Please , don't give these scrubs any more ammo then they need , there crying about a weapon that has a less then 200 m range and a 2 to 3 second lock on time ... that's more then enough time to escape and they have the most maneuverability of all vehicles with the best escape as well .

If they sit around long enough to get swarmed then they deserve all that they get .

These were the same ones who talked crap about HAV users , until they were hit themselves and now it's " Oh , woe is me " .

They would fly around instablapping anything and anyone in their path .

I bet the next time anything that comes up about vehicles , they will watch what they say because it effects them as well , not just tankers or LAV drivers .

I told them , anything that they do to tankers will have an effect on them as well but they didn't listen and look at them now .

These are some of the main people who talked crap about tankers and now they see what they didn't at the time .

Instead of talking crap , come with solutions that will help and not handicap the role or else , you might be next .

Your not just pilots , your vehicle users .

So you can Jihad jeep but not be a Kamikaze pilot ?

I'm not knocking you CB but it's a viable tactic , just like jihad jeeps are .

What is with double standards in this community ???

Again , not a knock against you CB because your not the only one who feels the way that you do but you had the courage to say what you said and I can do nothing but applaud you for that .

It's a viable tactic though .

Edit : If CCP does " fix " collision damage , then they need to get rid of the jihad jeeps as well , its only right .

More double standards and bias .

Ground vehicles have it so much more harder then any airship .

Nevermind, wrong post

Mr. Bolt? A table has just opened up, for you and Mr. Shinobi.

Haha. I was waiting for the comment, the table is for the other gentleman

Give the guy a break though, Attim is usually a voice of reason on the forums. I might not always agree with him but I respect his position as he has done more than most in this game.

[i will probably retire from the posting

I cant remember that I have ever been brought down by a swarm launcher after the lock on was cut down to almost melee range despite the fact that I get hit by them quite often

and I am a casual player at heart.

what does it tell us about the OP

Calm down, calm down. i dont know about crying but i do know you're getting awfully worked up over your scrub crutch. Swarms are not the godsend savior of infantry dude. I want all infantry with light weapons to be able to properly damage a dropship, so they won't go instapopping anyone without AV. I want swarm turn radius nerfed and Damage buffed so that the autolocks are not a garunteed hit, and the ones you do land will really, really hurt a dropship.

Here's a tip before you get all accusatory: got to dustsearch.com. You type my name in the search engine and you can see every post i have ever made. Find it where i was talking crap about tanks. I'll admit, yes i was against redline tanks that can shoot from one redline into the opposite one, that broke the game for all vehicles, dropships AND tanks who left the redline.

thats why i'm not saying you are ''the same people as' blah blah', partly because i don't know you, mostly because i try not to claim what i can't back up.

Kind of a non-issue really, because Caldari Shields have a resist to only one kind of AV the swarm launcher, shield hardners add 60% resist on top of that, and hield HP is always lower than armor HP. Shields are much more vulnerable to plasma cannons and forge guns.

Quick question... Every time you guys 'do the maths' do you include the weak points? Because sometimes I notice a severe difference in damage from these things and I'm guessing it's because the balance is based on shooting the front end not the back half.

Maybe we should remove the weak points and see how that changes things, although that would suck for us forgers, so if there's a way to just stop the swarms dealing that extra damage (if you can't miss what's the problem with the damage only ever hitting it's intended amount?)

Finaly i got with to see hotfix delta and the swarm interaction with dropships. I have minmatar commando level 3 and cbr7s.Pulled out several dropships, flying the incubus and a Grimms.

From the ground: Every single dropship i came across i shot down without exception. ADS, Standard it diddn't matter. I only needed 3 shots to kill an ADS and the normal ships were too slow to escape a 4th volley. I usually fire straight up once, then directly at the target, the missles still travel at right angles. I did lose a suit or two to other infantry, but it wasnt important or out of proportion to pulling out a regular infatnry suit. It wasnt costing me much and i was earning more than enough WP per suit, so no issue there.

From the air: There is no escape from swarms. Getting kills is still viable, as long as you focus on fighting undefended infantry with missiles. 1 swarmer and you are going to be toast. I didn't lose a single ship to forge guns but every ship i used went down to proto swarms. Exactly as i predicted , my ADV incubus simply cannot tank 3 proto swarm missiles, whereas i had a slim chance at getting out of dodge pre delta, now its zero. I was flying in a dominatioin attacking uplinks on the high ledge on fracture road. Its more than 90m up, not hovering, and cerrtainly 90m+ from any other elevated position, surley if i afterburn away towards the redline no problem, like Ratatti said . Imagine my surprise (or lack there of seeing as i had been swarming earlier) when i explode above the CRU closest to our MCC.

Balanced? far from it.

For swarms, as long as there is time to get a lock every single misile will connect. There is no counter measureI'm starting to think they did get an inadverdent range buff, but i'll have to test that out.

Frankly its rock paper scissors, which is not fair to anyone. Infantry can still be beat up by missile turets, swarms then kill dropship ad naueseam, swarmers die dropships come out again maybe blah blah blah. Dropships are (barely) more spammable than before. Air to Air is dead. Air vs forge is still exciting, Air vs swarms = I win button for swarms.

I would just tone down swarms a bit, really nerf thier turn speed, and buff thier damage so pilots can dodge them well enough, and let light weapons damage the ADS. Small arms are dangerous to every aircraft why not here. You fly into a crowd of troops they can at least shoot back hard enough to drive you off without hqving to die first to swtich onto AV. Swarm suits will be more specialist and obviously more dangerous. Hard to hit the ships but what hits you do land will do tremendous damage. Swwamers get a accuracy bonus skill so that swarms turn better and better and are more likley to land a hit.

TL;DR Doesn't matter because the swam vs ADs discussion is closed down permenantly. thats why its here in General discussions rather than feedback. Right now with as i have anecdotally seen with my anecdotal eyes swarm balance right now is an anecdotal joke.

Lets forget about "balance" for a minute. For those that know me, I am as hard core of a Caldari loyalist as there can be. I only skill up Caldari tech and only use Caldari tech (except for flux grenades). I have every Caldari suit, weapon, and vehicle at proto (except for Cal heavy and forge, which are at adv), and I HATE the mechanics of the swarm launcher. It is a weapon that aims for you and requires no skill other than situational awareness.

Something needs to be done but I'm not sure what yet. However, I do like the idea of swarm with faster speed, more damage, bigger clip/ammo, increased range and lockon time, but a greatly increased turn radius. And when I say bigger turn radius, I mean big enough to where we swarmers would have to lead a moving target and us pilots could have a chance to dodge shots if we see them coming.

Thoughts?

I find swarms fine from a Pilot and AV point of view.

That's cool if you do.

From my pilot's seat and my AV's point of view i don't.

Its a shocker to some, i know, but pilots are allowed to disagree. Doesn't make using swarms any less of a joke.

The reason I find it fine is that im actually worried about fighting a swarmer. Before id kill them with little trouble, but now I actually have to think about what im doing, like how to escape if I miss a shot, potential escape routes, and the likelihood of them coming back to the same spot with more AV'ers. I like that. Makes killing them as satisfying as it is with a Forger.

When im AV'ing, ive noticed the only ADS pilots ive killed are the bad ones. The ones who underestimate the threat of swarms, especially. I also find it hilarious how many pilots fly into a group of swarmers still expecting it to be a good idea. I did that just after Delta and dropped like a stone. So I adjusted my technique, and ive been fine ever since. Only ADS I lose regularly now are in PC. Or if im playing drunk.

Only adjustment id like to be seen made to the swarms is for you to actually track the moving vehicle. Though not necessary, would remove the no skill argument.

reserved

Oh man I understand you totally. However when a jihad jeep rams a tank, the idea is that both parties die in the ensuing explosion right?

When an Armour kamikaze DS hits a shield DS, ONLY the shield dropship dies and that is wrong. If someone wants to kamikaze me, at the very least they should also die!

Even so, the risk vs reward is certainly off balance. A 300k+ dropship vs a 40k ish kamikaze?

Also I have to say I disagree with your analysis. An aware tanker can easily take out a jihad jeeper. You have rough terrain that slows the LAV down, you can swing the turret around on the tank and blow up that pesky jeeper.

In an ADS spotting a kamikaze rammer is hard enough, dodging it is difficult indeed however taking it out is a different beast all together.

I have played many roles n this game, I do not wish to remove kamikaze nor jihad jeeps. I just think there needs to be balance. The tank has balance because you can spot and kill the jihad jeeper. The ADS is at pains to even find the encroaching kamikaze pilot and certainly will have a tough time trying to kill said kamikaze pilot.

"Fit an active scanner" I hear you say, lets be honest that is a no go for a Python pilot. We cannot afford to lose any of our precious shield slots. We cant even fit all proto mods as it is!

So yea TLDR - Balance with ALL roles, that includes both sides of the kamikaze maniacs and the pilots and tankers. However as it stands the Python ADS has a distinct and tangible disadvantage right now.

I like you because you are one who is a real Caldari , I see that you are one of the full racial types and that's appreciated .

Also people keep mentioning only bad pilots going down, what makes a bad swarmer do they aim it at infantry?

Same as a bad anything, they are ineffective. Some people would like to boil "skill" and "good" down to the ability to aim well. I find that positioning, tactics, timing, awareness and related skills to be much more important and an indicator of overall skill. I forge pretty well but swarms take just as much skill to use effectively and allow for a more versatile pkaystyle.

So a bad swarmer is a dead swarmer (due to infantry) and I shouldn't break out the ADS when my team is losing as there will be no one to kill the av?