Quick question... Every time you guys 'do the maths' do you include the weak points? Because sometimes I notice a severe difference in damage from these things and I'm guessing it's because the balance is based on shooting the front end not the back half.

Maybe we should remove the weak points and see how that changes things, although that would suck for us forgers, so if there's a way to just stop the swarms dealing that extra damage (if you can't miss what's the problem with the damage only ever hitting it's intended amount?)

Finaly i got with to see hotfix delta and the swarm interaction with dropships. I have minmatar commando level 3 and cbr7s.Pulled out several dropships, flying the incubus and a Grimms.

From the ground: Every single dropship i came across i shot down without exception. ADS, Standard it diddn't matter. I only needed 3 shots to kill an ADS and the normal ships were too slow to escape a 4th volley. I usually fire straight up once, then directly at the target, the missles still travel at right angles. I did lose a suit or two to other infantry, but it wasnt important or out of proportion to pulling out a regular infatnry suit. It wasnt costing me much and i was earning more than enough WP per suit, so no issue there.

From the air: There is no escape from swarms. Getting kills is still viable, as long as you focus on fighting undefended infantry with missiles. 1 swarmer and you are going to be toast. I didn't lose a single ship to forge guns but every ship i used went down to proto swarms. Exactly as i predicted , my ADV incubus simply cannot tank 3 proto swarm missiles, whereas i had a slim chance at getting out of dodge pre delta, now its zero. I was flying in a dominatioin attacking uplinks on the high ledge on fracture road. Its more than 90m up, not hovering, and cerrtainly 90m+ from any other elevated position, surley if i afterburn away towards the redline no problem, like Ratatti said . Imagine my surprise (or lack there of seeing as i had been swarming earlier) when i explode above the CRU closest to our MCC.

Balanced? far from it.

For swarms, as long as there is time to get a lock every single misile will connect. There is no counter measureI'm starting to think they did get an inadverdent range buff, but i'll have to test that out.

Frankly its rock paper scissors, which is not fair to anyone. Infantry can still be beat up by missile turets, swarms then kill dropship ad naueseam, swarmers die dropships come out again maybe blah blah blah. Dropships are (barely) more spammable than before. Air to Air is dead. Air vs forge is still exciting, Air vs swarms = I win button for swarms.

I would just tone down swarms a bit, really nerf thier turn speed, and buff thier damage so pilots can dodge them well enough, and let light weapons damage the ADS. Small arms are dangerous to every aircraft why not here. You fly into a crowd of troops they can at least shoot back hard enough to drive you off without hqving to die first to swtich onto AV. Swarm suits will be more specialist and obviously more dangerous. Hard to hit the ships but what hits you do land will do tremendous damage. Swwamers get a accuracy bonus skill so that swarms turn better and better and are more likley to land a hit.

TL;DR Doesn't matter because the swam vs ADs discussion is closed down permenantly. thats why its here in General discussions rather than feedback. Right now with as i have anecdotally seen with my anecdotal eyes swarm balance right now is an anecdotal joke.

Lets forget about "balance" for a minute. For those that know me, I am as hard core of a Caldari loyalist as there can be. I only skill up Caldari tech and only use Caldari tech (except for flux grenades). I have every Caldari suit, weapon, and vehicle at proto (except for Cal heavy and forge, which are at adv), and I HATE the mechanics of the swarm launcher. It is a weapon that aims for you and requires no skill other than situational awareness.

Something needs to be done but I'm not sure what yet. However, I do like the idea of swarm with faster speed, more damage, bigger clip/ammo, increased range and lockon time, but a greatly increased turn radius. And when I say bigger turn radius, I mean big enough to where we swarmers would have to lead a moving target and us pilots could have a chance to dodge shots if we see them coming.

Thoughts?

I find swarms fine from a Pilot and AV point of view.

That's cool if you do.

From my pilot's seat and my AV's point of view i don't.

Its a shocker to some, i know, but pilots are allowed to disagree. Doesn't make using swarms any less of a joke.

The reason I find it fine is that im actually worried about fighting a swarmer. Before id kill them with little trouble, but now I actually have to think about what im doing, like how to escape if I miss a shot, potential escape routes, and the likelihood of them coming back to the same spot with more AV'ers. I like that. Makes killing them as satisfying as it is with a Forger.

When im AV'ing, ive noticed the only ADS pilots ive killed are the bad ones. The ones who underestimate the threat of swarms, especially. I also find it hilarious how many pilots fly into a group of swarmers still expecting it to be a good idea. I did that just after Delta and dropped like a stone. So I adjusted my technique, and ive been fine ever since. Only ADS I lose regularly now are in PC. Or if im playing drunk.

Only adjustment id like to be seen made to the swarms is for you to actually track the moving vehicle. Though not necessary, would remove the no skill argument.

reserved

Oh man I understand you totally. However when a jihad jeep rams a tank, the idea is that both parties die in the ensuing explosion right?

When an Armour kamikaze DS hits a shield DS, ONLY the shield dropship dies and that is wrong. If someone wants to kamikaze me, at the very least they should also die!

Even so, the risk vs reward is certainly off balance. A 300k+ dropship vs a 40k ish kamikaze?

Also I have to say I disagree with your analysis. An aware tanker can easily take out a jihad jeeper. You have rough terrain that slows the LAV down, you can swing the turret around on the tank and blow up that pesky jeeper.

In an ADS spotting a kamikaze rammer is hard enough, dodging it is difficult indeed however taking it out is a different beast all together.

I have played many roles n this game, I do not wish to remove kamikaze nor jihad jeeps. I just think there needs to be balance. The tank has balance because you can spot and kill the jihad jeeper. The ADS is at pains to even find the encroaching kamikaze pilot and certainly will have a tough time trying to kill said kamikaze pilot.

"Fit an active scanner" I hear you say, lets be honest that is a no go for a Python pilot. We cannot afford to lose any of our precious shield slots. We cant even fit all proto mods as it is!

So yea TLDR - Balance with ALL roles, that includes both sides of the kamikaze maniacs and the pilots and tankers. However as it stands the Python ADS has a distinct and tangible disadvantage right now.

I like you because you are one who is a real Caldari , I see that you are one of the full racial types and that's appreciated .

Also people keep mentioning only bad pilots going down, what makes a bad swarmer do they aim it at infantry?

Same as a bad anything, they are ineffective. Some people would like to boil "skill" and "good" down to the ability to aim well. I find that positioning, tactics, timing, awareness and related skills to be much more important and an indicator of overall skill. I forge pretty well but swarms take just as much skill to use effectively and allow for a more versatile pkaystyle.

So a bad swarmer is a dead swarmer (due to infantry) and I shouldn't break out the ADS when my team is losing as there will be no one to kill the av?