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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4471	Posted - 2014.10.05 19:23:00 - [1] - Quote Has anyone done any quantitative testing on the Bolt Pistol? I canGÇÖt get the results on paper that I am getting with it in the field. On Paper: 229 damage + 15% (two damage mods) = 263,35 Two shots = 526.7 In the field: I have been consistently 2 shotting medium frame suits from full health(5 or 6 in 2 matches), and I one-shotted a Sniper on a water tower. (The Sniper was Gallente, but I am not sure if it was a Scout or a Medium frame. I assume I got a head shot, but I donGÇÖt remember the sound effect.) Most of the medium frame suits I 2 shotted where Amarr or Gallente. Generally the first shot takes out around 80% of the shields and the next shot kills them (of course that varies with suit). It GÇ£feelsGÇ¥ like the Bolt Pistol is getting +30% against armor. That of course is completely subjective, as I donGÇÖt know how my opponents were fit, but I would normally expect a medium frame to have over 600 HP and on paper two shots from a bolt pistol should only do 526.7 HP damage. (In my paper calcualtions I am assuming that the -10/+10 damage profile roughly cancels itself out.) The point of this thread is that I would like someone to do some quantitative testing to see exactly how much damage the Bolt Pistol is doing against Shields and Armor to determine if they match to what it should be doing. If it is not working as intended, then trying to balance it without spotting the bug could completely mess it up. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Crimson ShieId Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 1011	Posted - 2014.10.05 20:49:00 - [2] - Quote Don't forget that the headshot multiplier is 225% Nova Knives are best sidearm.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4472	Posted - 2014.10.05 21:48:00 - [3] - Quote Yes, but I am fairly sure that most of these 2 shot kills are body shots. Anyway, it needs to be tested against a known fit that is standing still so it can be certain whether you are getting head or body shots. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3111	Posted - 2014.10.05 21:55:00 - [4] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Yes, but I am fairly sure that most of these 2 shot kills are body shots. Anyway, it needs to be tested against a known fit that is standing still so it can be certain whether you are getting head or body shots. I'd love to see more testing done on this. One thing that jumps out at me right away is that you are treading the 10/10 profile as evening out but your observations are about armor heavy suits where it is unlikely that the raw HP numbers are equal and thus very likely that the actual damage applied does not counterbalance. Regardless I totally agree this sidearm needs looked into and I shall be keeping an eye out. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Jebus McKing lol Proto 742	Posted - 2014.10.05 22:20:00 - [5] - Quote The damage of the Bolt Pistol is enough to 2-shot any starter fit and almost all militia medium or badly fitted standard suits and unfortunately nowadays 50% of each team seem to consist of players running those kind of suits. Also the basic medium suits did not get the same treatment as the assault suits so their tanking abilities are rather limited. Maybe that is why you think it does more damage than the stats say it should. The sad truth is most medium suits you come across don't even have 600hp. Not Haerr's alt. // Closed beta vet. // @JebusMcKing
Dingleburt Bangledack 269	Posted - 2014.10.06 00:34:00 - [6] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Yes, but I am fairly sure that most of these 2 shot kills are body shots. Anyway, it needs to be tested against a known fit that is standing still so it can be certain whether you are getting head or body shots. Hell, even that may not help. I can't even remember the number of times I got a headshot kill with my BP by shooting someone in the foot. Not to mention all the kills while aiming 10 feet to the right of my target... Something's definitely strange about the Bolt Pistol.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1881	Posted - 2014.10.06 01:22:00 - [7] - Quote Of all the weapons I use (mainly caldari ones) I feel like the bolt pistol has a higher than usual amount of aim assist. Perhaps that's what makes it so popular. Its not necessarily the damage, but the ease with which that damage is applied. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Justin Tymes Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 761	Posted - 2014.10.06 03:15:00 - [8] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: The damage of the Bolt Pistol is enough to 2-shot any starter fit and almost all militia medium or badly fitted standard suits and unfortunately nowadays 50% of each team seem to consist of players running those kind of suits. Also the basic medium suits did not get the same treatment as the assault suits so their tanking abilities are rather limited. Maybe that is why you think it does more damage than the stats say it should. The sad truth is most medium suits you come across don't even have 600hp. A Logi has to sacrifice bulk vs effectiveness on the battlefield. Blame CCP and not the player.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8463	Posted - 2014.10.06 04:42:00 - [9] - Quote I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

LOOKMOM NOHANDS Warpoint Sharx 1	Posted - 2014.10.06 05:12:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. Fortunately it seems to be many peoples weapon of choice to attempt to name so there will be lots of data for your guys.

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17130	Posted - 2014.10.06 05:48:00 - [11] - Quote I had once made the mistake of the 10/10 balancing out eventually but I have found out the hard way; it remotely does not as most suits do not have equal amounts of shields and armor. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Assault Rifles =// Unlocked
Jonny D Buelle Mors Effera 371	Posted - 2014.10.06 06:03:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. My nerf senses are tingling... Drink until you can't drink no more. Then grab another bottle and drink some more! - Demetrious 'Jonny' Buelle.
LOOKMOM NOHANDS Warpoint Sharx 1	Posted - 2014.10.06 06:38:00 - [13] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. My nerf senses are tingling... Unfortunately it will be safe for a while thanks to the event.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 564	Posted - 2014.10.06 07:43:00 - [14] - Quote hey ill be honest... NOBODY said the BP needed a buff. everyone thought it was fine the way it was. the only thing anybody said was when CCP Rattati balanced the sidearms based on DPS and range, he didn't include the charge up time before each shot. 10 mins after we told him, we suddenly had the current BP and no one thought it was warranted. so.. do i like the BP? yes lmao was it's buff deserved? no. it was fine the way it was. the headshot damage bonus wouldve been a nice enough of a added buff but 250 damage per shot makes the BP a better sniper rifle than anything else out there
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3118	Posted - 2014.10.06 08:52:00 - [15] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, CCP Rattati, best Rattati See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Echo 1991 WarRavens Capital Punishment. 469	Posted - 2014.10.06 09:09:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. you dont need to study it, it does too much damage and everyone knows it. You shouldn't be able to 3 shot almost any suit with a sidearm from 60 meters away.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3118	Posted - 2014.10.06 09:47:00 - [17] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. you dont need to study it, it does too much damage and everyone knows it. You shouldn't be able to 3 shot almost any suit with a sidearm from 60 meters away. Damage is more than just a raw number there are many factors that play into the final damage which is applied. Further that applied damage number, even with all factors included, does not account for possible bugs or other aspects which could be improperly inflating performance. Knowing a thing is performing behind its intended level is one thing, knowing why and thus how to effectively remedy that, is quite another. Hence why it will be studied closely in the coming days. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3412	Posted - 2014.10.06 09:50:00 - [18] - Quote Given that a pistol that does 225 hp damage raw shouldn't be able to 4-shot a 1400 HP sentinel via bodyshot I would bank on an unexpected interaction or bug. Or people might be doing what I do and damage mod stacking on a calmando.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3412	Posted - 2014.10.06 10:07:00 - [19] - Quote Who wants to shoot me with a bolt pistol in five hours so we can record the resulting damage? I will volunteer both a commando set and a sentinel set and see how much actual is being applied. I can do this at about 8 AM pacific time.
2k2y Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2014.10.06 10:09:00 - [20] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, CCP Rattati, best Rattati True.

shaman oga S.W.A.G. of J.E.B.U.S. 2910	Posted - 2014.10.06 10:46:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Given that a pistol that does 225 hp damage raw shouldn't be able to 4-shot a 1400 HP sentinel via bodyshot I would bank on an unexpected interaction or bug. Or people might be doing what I do and damage mod stacking on a calmando. With a proto bolt pistol and 3 sidearm damage mod, i do 341.51 damage, 1366.02 per clip. (i've not calculated resistance or bonus on shield armor) PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communists who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items" LOCK REGIONS
Haerr Clone Manque 1566	Posted - 2014.10.06 11:00:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I was playing a lot yesterday, and yes, the BP kills quite quickly, and at all ranges. We will study it closely in the coming days. I much prefer the SMG over the BP since I find it really difficult to get hits in with the BP... Question: Can you see a difference in the BP performance data between controller users and mouse users? Not Jebus's alt. // Now residing in Ana. // ... I think I might be one of Appia's alts ...
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4476	Posted - 2014.10.06 11:45:00 - [23] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I had once made the mistake of the 10/10 balancing out eventually but I have found out the hard way; it remotely does not as most suits do not have equal amounts of shields and armor. Yes, but with the -10/+10 split, if the suit is 40% Shield/60% armor, that is still only +2% damage overall. If the damage profile was -20/+20 then it would be a bit more noticeable. When the fit is unknown 2% damage falls into the margin of error in the calculation. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3413	Posted - 2014.10.06 12:00:00 - [24] - Quote You aren't accounting for proficiency which puts another multiplier on the preferred tank breaching attribute gaden. The proficiency skill brings that up over 2% difference. Also it gets wonky with sentinels. Damage by RAW Without proficiency does 108% damage to caldari shields, for interest, not 120%. So there's a few altering factors here.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4476	Posted - 2014.10.06 12:04:00 - [25] - Quote Further field testing: -It took two shots to break through the shields on a Sentinel. (This seems to match the paper calculations.) -One shotted a Gallente Scout (Shoulder hit, not a head shot.) -Research facility Domination match. Mass Drivers above the objective vs Bolt pistols below. Bolt pistols won. It still GÇ£feelsGÇ¥ like it is doing more damage to armor than it should. (Although I was wrong about the HMG back in the day, so I could be wrong about this too.) I would not rule out the theory about stronger aim assist. But this has not been my impression so far. I will watch for it. The Bolt Pistol seems to hit like the Burst HMG, except with rifle range. If you correlate a round from the Bolt Pistol with a Burst from the Burst HMG, the HMG can lay down one more Burst of continuous fire than the Bolt Pistol, but the Bolt Pistol reloads very fast while the Burst HMG has either a 5 second overheat or 6 to 8 second reload (or both) before getting back in the fight. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4476	Posted - 2014.10.06 12:14:00 - [26] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Who wants to shoot me with a bolt pistol in five hours so we can record the resulting damage? I will volunteer both a commando set and a sentinel set and see how much actual is being applied. I can do this at about 8 AM pacific time. I am 4 hours ahead of you, so I donGÇÖt think I will be able to help. I am looking forward to seeing your results. I would say to use a brick tanked Sentinel for testing armor. Hold a flux grenade to strip shields and then start test. For shields just get the largest shield fit you have access to. I am thinking you may find it is working as intended against Shields, but is applying more damage than appropriate against armor. (Only a theory until you test it though. ) Get your assistant to use a suit with no Sidearm Damage mods, and a character with no Bolt Pistol proficiency if possible. It will make it easier to calculate the expected results. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4476	Posted - 2014.10.06 12:23:00 - [27] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You aren't accounting for proficiency which puts another multiplier on the preferred tank breaching attribute gaden. The proficiency skill brings that up over 2% difference. Also it gets wonky with sentinels. Damage by RAW Without proficiency does 108% damage to caldari shields, for interest, not 120%. So there's a few altering factors here. I only have 1 level in Bolt Pistol Operation. I have no Proficiency. I only leveled it to 1 to get that extra round in the clip because I am a terrible shot with high Alpha weapons. (I had to use a mouse with the Sniper Rifle.) I only tried the bolt pistol to get a feel for it since so many people were claiming it was OP. I was expected that the Bolt Pistol would suck for me compared to the Magsec, but with the Bolt Pistol, when I do hit them they die. I even find myself using the Bolt Pistol in CQC on my SMG/Bolt Pistol fit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3413	Posted - 2014.10.06 13:43:00 - [28] - Quote Also part of the OP bitching is the assumption of accuracy. I find it much harder to successfully land bolt shots than with any weapon other than the flaylock. Yes it hits like a truck, no you aren't likely to hit moving targets in a firefight enough to kill them in one clip running the militia or standard. Most of my bolt kills are people who stand still for whatever reason. Shooting on the fly has an insanely hard failure rate. I wouldn't be surprised to find most of the "overperforming" is against stationary targets, especially using alts of friends to headshot to get better data results. Also I'm fairly certain there is a certain amount of manipulation of the data on the part of players who don't like things to make a weapon artificially overperform. We have a small enough player base that a few playing the numbers can artificially screw some (not all) of the data points.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 4476	Posted - 2014.10.06 14:24:00 - [29] - Quote While I have noticed that around half of my deaths in the last weak were to Bolt Pistols, I did not consider that to be proof that it was OP. It could have just been that a lot of people were using it. Between the rumors of it being OP, and the sidearm event, it was not unexpected that it would be widely used. I made this thread after trying the Bolt Pistol myself because the results I got when using it were far better than expected. The Bolt Pistol seems balanced on paper, so the first thing we need to verify is whether its performance in the field matches the stats we have on paper. Only after we have that sorted can we properly discuss whether it is balanced properly. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3415	Posted - 2014.10.06 14:32:00 - [30] - Quote Yep. And if you are on in 40 minutes I'll let you shoot me in the face. And we can test it.



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