DUST Search - [Feedback] Bolt Pistol

CCP Rattati wrote:

Mobius Kaethis wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

I would like to show a comparison between my old sidearm, STD Breach Scrambler Pistol, and my new side arm STD Bolt Pistol. In both cases I chose the weapon for PG fitting reasons with high alpha headshot damage.

Alpha-Damage Headshot Analysis:

charlie STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL
DMG: 128
HEADSHOT : 375%
TOTAL: 480

delta STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL
DMG: 145
HEADSHOT: 375%
TOTAL: 543.75

delta STD BOLT PISTOL
DMG: 229
HEADSHOT: 250%
TOTAL: 572.5

Thank you for taking the time to put together the numbers on this as it clearly highlights my issue with the weapon. It has more range than the scrambler pistol and higher damage potential. This is an issue. Normally I would make the argument that DPS is king but in this case, where the alpha damage numbers are so large that surviving even a few shots is an issue, I think we need to think about alpha potential vs range in addition to DPS vs range.

The bolt pistol, with its long range should have lower damage potential than an equivalent shorter range weapon. The breach scrambler pistol is a good comparison here since it is both shorter range and of the same variant (breach) as the bolt pistol. A 10% damage reduction would keep the weapon extremely useful but make it far more balanced.

It still has lower dps and hard to apply damage due to charge up, plus very small clip.

We are keeping tabs on it for a tweak though.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1847	Posted - 2014.09.25 15:28:00 - [1] - Quote I hate to say this since I spent so much time advocating for the pistol changes but the Bolt Pistol needs to be tuned down a bit. It has by far the longest range of the pistols and has such massive alpha damage that it is a bit unbalanced. Sure you have to aim, but 250+ damage per shot before the headshot modifier means I kill starter fits and most scouts in 2 shots. That is really far too powerful. A damage reduction of 10% would be a nice start then incremental changes to tweak its damage output as needed to make it reasonable. Now with more evil.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3145	Posted - 2014.09.25 15:49:00 - [2] - Quote Scouts should die fast when you shoot them. Being fast and undetectable means that there should be no sympathy for bitching when you pop them with a sidearm. Its nice there is a way to execute the bastards now. Militia fits die if you fart too hard nearby, and more the point, most players abandon them at the earliest opportunity if they are smart.
Vitharr Foebane Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 1929	Posted - 2014.09.25 16:09:00 - [3] - Quote It is a skill weapon and deserves its buff Amarr: Assault V, Scout V, Sentinel V, Commando V, Logistics IV I place my faith in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
BL4CKST4R La Muerte Eterna Dark Taboo 3120	Posted - 2014.09.25 16:14:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Scouts should die fast when you shoot them. Being fast and undetectable means that there should be no sympathy for bitching when you pop them with a sidearm. Its nice there is a way to execute the bastards now. Militia fits die if you fart too hard nearby, and more the point, most players abandon them at the earliest opportunity if they are smart. Two shot a shotgun scout with a flaylock. It's like saying fck you with fireworks. supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3149	Posted - 2014.09.25 16:21:00 - [5] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Two shot a shotgun scout with a flaylock. It's like saying fck you with fireworks. I cannot like this statement enough. Scouts should be fragile and die when they get caught. Let the hurting start. Commissar Breakin commands executions of scouts.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1847	Posted - 2014.09.25 16:43:00 - [6] - Quote I agree that it takes some skill to use but it is still a bit too powerful. All that range and that much alpha? It just needs its damage dialed back a bit to prevent it from becoming a flavour of the month. I'm not advocating a nerf but a tweak. Now with more evil.
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 683	Posted - 2014.09.25 17:43:00 - [7] - Quote I have Bolt Pistol to prof 3 now and I think it is a great and quite balanced pistol, except for one thing though: the headshot bonus. Too many times when I'm hipfiring and missing 3 shots I still win the fight because of one lucky headshot. I think that multiplier has to get reduced again, maybe even to what it was before the buff. You have to post numbers and math to be taken seriously. // @JebusMcKing
xAckie Ghost. Mob 453	Posted - 2014.09.25 18:07:00 - [8] - Quote Jebus McKing wrote: I have Bolt Pistol to prof 3 now and I think it is a great and quite balanced pistol, except for one thing though: the headshot bonus. Too many times when I'm hipfiring and missing 3 shots I still win the fight because of one lucky headshot. I think that multiplier has to get reduced again, maybe even to what it was before the buff. yeah, i think this is the key thing.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2014.09.25 19:08:00 - [9] - Quote I would like to show a comparison between my old sidearm, STD Breach Scrambler Pistol, and my new side arm STD Bolt Pistol. In both cases I chose the weapon for PG fitting reasons with high alpha headshot damage. Alpha-Damage Headshot Analysis: charlie STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 128 HEADSHOT : 375% TOTAL: 480 delta STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 145 HEADSHOT: 375% TOTAL: 543.75 delta STD BOLT PISTOL DMG: 229 HEADSHOT: 250% TOTAL: 572.5 With this I am pretty happy migrating to the bolt pistol from the scrambler, in delta, as a backup weapon. However.. it's really a pain to use, compared to the scrambler. The charge up before the first shot especially makes it tough on me, others might argue the limited clip size is an issue. The range is nothing to laugh at, either. Take what you will from the data, and whether it is really OP or just fine.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1850	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:02:00 - [10] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I would like to show a comparison between my old sidearm, STD Breach Scrambler Pistol, and my new side arm STD Bolt Pistol. In both cases I chose the weapon for PG fitting reasons with high alpha headshot damage. Alpha-Damage Headshot Analysis: charlie STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 128 HEADSHOT : 375% TOTAL: 480 delta STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 145 HEADSHOT: 375% TOTAL: 543.75 delta STD BOLT PISTOL DMG: 229 HEADSHOT: 250% TOTAL: 572.5 Thank you for taking the time to put together the numbers on this as it clearly highlights my issue with the weapon. It has more range than the scrambler pistol and higher damage potential. This is an issue. Normally I would make the argument that DPS is king but in this case, where the alpha damage numbers are so large that surviving even a few shots is an issue, I think we need to think about alpha potential vs range in addition to DPS vs range. The bolt pistol, with its long range should have lower damage potential than an equivalent shorter range weapon. The breach scrambler pistol is a good comparison here since it is both shorter range and of the same variant (breach) as the bolt pistol. A 10% damage reduction would keep the weapon extremely useful but make it far more balanced. Now with more evil.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8024	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:14:00 - [11] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I would like to show a comparison between my old sidearm, STD Breach Scrambler Pistol, and my new side arm STD Bolt Pistol. In both cases I chose the weapon for PG fitting reasons with high alpha headshot damage. Alpha-Damage Headshot Analysis: charlie STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 128 HEADSHOT : 375% TOTAL: 480 delta STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 145 HEADSHOT: 375% TOTAL: 543.75 delta STD BOLT PISTOL DMG: 229 HEADSHOT: 250% TOTAL: 572.5 Thank you for taking the time to put together the numbers on this as it clearly highlights my issue with the weapon. It has more range than the scrambler pistol and higher damage potential. This is an issue. Normally I would make the argument that DPS is king but in this case, where the alpha damage numbers are so large that surviving even a few shots is an issue, I think we need to think about alpha potential vs range in addition to DPS vs range. The bolt pistol, with its long range should have lower damage potential than an equivalent shorter range weapon. The breach scrambler pistol is a good comparison here since it is both shorter range and of the same variant (breach) as the bolt pistol. A 10% damage reduction would keep the weapon extremely useful but make it far more balanced. It still has lower dps and hard to apply damage due to charge up, plus very small clip. We are keeping tabs on it for a tweak though. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1851	Posted - 2014.09.26 04:19:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: It still has lower dps and hard to apply damage due to charge up, plus very small clip. We are keeping tabs on it for a tweak though. Thank you for saying you are doing so. I am, of course, aware that its DPS is lower but I really feel like you guys are undervaluing range when making range vs damage comparisons. At any rate, I have great faith in your ability to analyze the data we provide you through playing and will gladly step back from this for a while to see how everything pans out. Once again thank you Rattati and all the other Devs who's tags we will never see on the forums. Now with more evil.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 351	Posted - 2014.09.26 06:14:00 - [13] - Quote Im still not a fan of that thing. Hit detection seems to be moody at best. Either you hit or you dont though i aim down the sights and got the enemy centered. The charge up between each shot is not helpfull either. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 557	Posted - 2014.09.26 06:38:00 - [14] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: I agree that it takes some skill to use but it is still a bit too powerful. All that range and that much alpha? It just needs its damage dialed back a bit to prevent it from becoming a flavour of the month. I'm not advocating a nerf but a tweak. do you think sniper rifles have too much range and too much alpha?
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 262	Posted - 2014.09.26 06:47:00 - [15] - Quote Bolt Pistol....more like BULL**** Pistol. I think the damage is way to high. Got hit by 3 shots of those at close range by some proto stomper....I had no chance and i was stacking ehp modules to decent levels too. Maybe he had DMG mods or something...way to harsh. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 557	Posted - 2014.09.26 06:56:00 - [16] - Quote Chief-Shotty wrote: Bolt Pistol....more like BULL**** Pistol. I think the damage is way to high. Got hit by 3 shots of those at close range by some proto stomper....I had no chance and i was stacking ehp modules to decent levels too. Maybe he had DMG mods or something...way to harsh. what were you wearing?
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 9552	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:00:00 - [17] - Quote In my case, it didn't matter if the Bolt Pistol was firing spit balls. I still die in my 197 EHP scout suit. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8027	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:11:00 - [18] - Quote Reducing ROF a little is the option we prefer - it is overperforming, the data is clear "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7638	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:13:00 - [19] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: It still has lower dps and hard to apply damage due to charge up, plus very small clip. We are keeping tabs on it for a tweak though. Thank you for saying you are doing so. I am, of course, aware that its DPS is lower but I really feel like you guys are undervaluing range when making range vs damage comparisons. At any rate, I have great faith in your ability to analyze the data we provide you through playing and will gladly step back from this for a while to see how everything pans out. Once again thank you Rattati and all the other Devs who's tags we will never see on the forums. CCP has always had the difficulty of balancing Range vs. Damage. Easiest way to think about it is not just range Vs. Damage but Ease of Damage Application vs. Damage. Sure the Ion Pistol does more DPS than it Bolt but it's range is small and is confined there. Compare this to the Scrambler that has barely less DPS with more range, better bonus to headshots, higher alpha and generally just better damage applications....especially easier. Now, I'm not saying this to talk about nerfing or buffing the Bolt Pistol. Your comment just got me in one of my annoyed moods about CCP's difficult comprehension of Range vs Damage. Carry on Clone. P.S. Just saw Rattati's post above mine. Apparently it was overpower-performing and he knows what he's doing. A breath a fresh air! Something's wrong when you regret Things that haven't happened yet
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:22:00 - [20] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: do you think sniper rifles have too much range and too much alpha? You clearly haven't read one of my posts in a sniping thread before but let me sum up my opinion for you. Sniper rifles are broken because of thier ability to get a reward (kills) with too little risk (thanks to their range). This breaks the risk reward relationship that is the halmark of this game and what makes it fun for all players. So, basically, yes. I do think that for their range sniper rifles have too long of range. DeathwindRising wrote: my issue with it is that its become my main weapon and my rail rifle has become my sidearm/finisher. anything outside bolt pistol range gets the RR treatment. i dont want to see the bolt pistol nerfed No one wants to see it nerfed. That is silly. We do want all the weapons to be balanced though. Also remember this part of the forum is supposed to be larger than any individual player's likes and dislikes. It really is about us trying to suggest things that will improve the game for the entire community. Now with more evil.

CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1528	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:26:00 - [21] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I would like to show a comparison between my old sidearm, STD Breach Scrambler Pistol, and my new side arm STD Bolt Pistol. In both cases I chose the weapon for PG fitting reasons with high alpha headshot damage. Alpha-Damage Headshot Analysis: charlie STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 128 HEADSHOT : 375% TOTAL: 480 delta STD BREACH SCRAMBLER PISTOL DMG: 145 HEADSHOT: 375% TOTAL: 543.75 delta STD BOLT PISTOL DMG: 229 HEADSHOT: 250% TOTAL: 572.5 Thank you for taking the time to put together the numbers on this as it clearly highlights my issue with the weapon. It has more range than the scrambler pistol and higher damage potential. This is an issue. Normally I would make the argument that DPS is king but in this case, where the alpha damage numbers are so large that surviving even a few shots is an issue, I think we need to think about alpha potential vs range in addition to DPS vs range. The bolt pistol, with its long range should have lower damage potential than an equivalent shorter range weapon. The breach scrambler pistol is a good comparison here since it is both shorter range and of the same variant (breach) as the bolt pistol. A 10% damage reduction would keep the weapon extremely useful but make it far more balanced. It still has lower dps and hard to apply damage due to charge up, plus very small clip. We are keeping tabs on it for a tweak though. the bolt pistol is fine and balanced right now its not even really a good sidearm to switch to in a gun fight. its very easy to kill players who are not that good and difficult to kill skilled players so it seems balanced. KEQ diplomat/ intel /GC officer
CamClarke 0uter.Heaven 135	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:31:00 - [22] - Quote It's probably overperforming due to the same reason shotguns are overperforming. Alpha wins every time if you're accurate, and especially if the enemy is unaware of you.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:36:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Reducing ROF a little is the option we prefer - it is overperforming, the data is clear Excellent. This is a great solution. Now with more evil.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 3185	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:39:00 - [24] - Quote CamClarke wrote: It's probably overperforming due to the same reason shotguns are overperforming. Alpha wins every time if you're accurate, and especially if the enemy is unaware of you. Alpha from surprise is not a bad thing per se. Alpha being completely undetectable is bad though. Honestly the scanning system is more at fault for that.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 07:55:00 - [25] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CamClarke wrote: It's probably overperforming due to the same reason shotguns are overperforming. Alpha wins every time if you're accurate, and especially if the enemy is unaware of you. Alpha from surprise is not a bad thing per se. Alpha being completely undetectable is bad though. Honestly the scanning system is more at fault for that. So true. I intend to start a fix ewar thread very soon once I've flushed my ideas. Now with more evil.
Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 686	Posted - 2014.09.26 08:16:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Reducing ROF a little is the option we prefer - it is overperforming, the data is clear Reducing ROF by how much? Honestly, I think I'd prefer a slight damage reduction because a ROF nerf will make the BoP even harder to handle and it already is kinda tricky to use. Maybe reduce damage and increase clipsize by one, wouldn't that be a kind of ROF nerf? What about a headshot bonus reduction instead? You have to post numbers and math to be taken seriously. // @JebusMcKing
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS VP Gaming Alliance 557	Posted - 2014.09.26 08:19:00 - [27] - Quote Mobius Kaethis wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: do you think sniper rifles have too much range and too much alpha? You clearly haven't read one of my posts in a sniping thread before but let me sum up my opinion for you. Sniper rifles are broken because of thier ability to get a reward (kills) with too little risk (thanks to their range). This breaks the risk reward relationship that is the halmark of this game and what makes it fun for all players. So, basically, yes. I do think that for their range sniper rifles have too long of range. then i dont understand the role of sniper rifles. if a sniper rifle doesnt have great range range then it isnt a sniper rifle. if you cant kill with a sniper rifle at range, then what do you think sniper rifles should be for in your opinion? a sniper has historically been effective by its ability to demoralize the enemy. IMO a sniper causes fear. i dont not fear snipers in dust 514. so the role of a sniper is broken.
CamClarke 0uter.Heaven 136	Posted - 2014.09.26 08:28:00 - [28] - Quote Agreed, Mobius, eWar is probably the biggest thing that is making certain weapons and suits overperform. A fair number of my solo Bolt Pistol kills since Delta dropped (as in not softening them with a Shotgun first, no nearby teammates firing on them) have been sneak attacks, and most of the rest from people backing out of Shotgun range. For the record, most of this was on a 1 Dampener, 1 Precision Amarr Scout ak.0 (don't judge, if you can't beat em join em).
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 08:32:00 - [29] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Mobius Kaethis wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: do you think sniper rifles have too much range and too much alpha? You clearly haven't read one of my posts in a sniping thread before but let me sum up my opinion for you. Sniper rifles are broken because of thier ability to get a reward (kills) with too little risk (thanks to their range). This breaks the risk reward relationship that is the halmark of this game and what makes it fun for all players. So, basically, yes. I do think that for their damage sniper rifles have too long of range. then i dont understand the role of sniper rifles. if a sniper rifle doesnt have great range range then it isnt a sniper rifle. if you cant kill with a sniper rifle at range, then what do you think sniper rifles should be for in your opinion? a sniper has historically been effective by its ability to demoralize the enemy. IMO a sniper causes fear. i dont not fear snipers in dust 514. so the role of a sniper is broken. No one fears them. That is a problem for sure. But we can't kill them either. Also a problem. The real issue here is that most snipers choose to snipe from the redline, where they are extremely challenging (and sometimes impossible) to kill. Their range needs to drop, to get them out of the redline and they need to be able to kill (the current stats for damage are actually quite nice as far as that is concerned). Drop the range down to the point where they can't cover a letter from the redline and then balance damage from there. As far the sniper rifles in this game having any resemblance to real sniper rifles I think you need to just throw that idea out the window for the following reasons: 1) The maps are not large enough to accommodate for realistic sniper weapons. 2) The way the physics engine handles sniper rilfes does not allow for travel time, bullet drop, or windage removing any challenge from sniping. 3) Having a redline and realistic sniper rifles would make the weapon have zero risk (which should never even be an option) and removing the redline would just lead to dominant teams camping enemy MCC and ground spawns (which used to happen all the time). 4) Games are supposed to be fun for everyone and, lets face it, real weapons including sniper rilfes, are not created around the idea of an enemy having an enjoyable, fun, and fair combat experience. Multiplayer games on the other hand, need to include all these elements to make people want to play them. Now with more evil.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1855	Posted - 2014.09.26 08:36:00 - [30] - Quote CamClarke wrote: Agreed, Mobius, eWar is probably the biggest thing that is making certain weapons and suits overperform. A fair number of my solo Bolt Pistol kills since Delta dropped (as in not softening them with a Shotgun first, no nearby teammates firing on them) have been sneak attacks, and most of the rest from people backing out of Shotgun range. For the record, most of this was on a 1 Dampener, 1 Precision Amarr Scout ak.0 (don't judge, if you can't beat em join em). I eagerly await your input once I post my ewar balance thread. Now with more evil.



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