DUST Search - Sticky:[Feedback] Player rank and stats

SHANN da MAN wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Hey players,

this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such.

To recap some of the things I have shared in the past.

We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex)

NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss

So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up.

Pirate

CCP Rattati wrote:

Sorry, but you are assuming that because matchmaking is not effective currently, then Mu must be inherently wrong. The data says otherwise, KDR and WP ratios verify that Mu correlates with skill, regardless of the matchmaker.

The problem with your current Mu calculation is that you are using Win/Loss (a TEAM metric) to calculate an INDIVIDUAL player's Mu. Players have NO ability to control who is on their team (other than the 6 in their squad, and even those aren't the same all the time) which can be populated by AFK'ers, or Griefers, or redliners, or Team Killers [in FW & PC], (etc.) and this affects their Win/Loss ratio which in turn affects their Mu.

A better way to calculate Mu would be to use WP/Death [or WP/Sec, to keep the resulting calculated number smaller] (Individual Statistic) in place of Win/Loss (Team statistic). This would more accurately indicate a player's INDIVIDUAL effectiveness without being skewed by a TEAM based metric

"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 23 post(s)
Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2176	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:00:00 - [91] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Gear based, everyone on same level, SP has a say but skill is needed more, cant break out the proto suit if a noob wipes the floor with you The entire point of having different tiers of gear is to give you an edge. It's risk vs. reward: pay exponentially more ISK for a linear increase in power. In gear-based matches, there's no reason to risk PRO gear. Most would just run STD and make a nice profit stomping low SP players. Ideally, if Mu-based matchmaking is putting you in a pool of 32 players of similar ability to you, then you can use more expensive gear when it really matters (e.g. a close match or to get revenge on the dude who keeps spawn-camping, etc.). If you constantly run blinged-out fits, your Mu will probably rise and you'll be facing much harder opponents. Your gear won't carry you very far and you'll start to loose a lot of ISK. Best PvE idea ever!
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3885	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:27:00 - [92] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: What stops a veteran from using standard gear knowing it will likely pit him against newer players with less SP in order to use his SP advantage to stomp? What stops a veteran from using proto gear knowing it will pit him against newer players with less SP in order to use his SP and proto advantage to stomp? A system which pairs him against players who dont lose very often. Well it aint this system thats for sure
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 16208	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:37:00 - [93] - Quote So my question is what could be factored in to prevent really high scoring players from lowering their Mu without isk loss? (Afking as a squad in an MCC to help their team lose for 0 warppoints?) Player behavior in past games have actually shown this to be a serious issue even in games with massive player pools (halo 2 had such rank system) While I don't mind good players mixing it with the bad players and good players getting stomped to lower their ranks I do mind if they are doing it at no cost or activities that rob others of game content. CPM 0 Secretary, CPM 1 Elect Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Advanced Minmatar Logistics =// Unlocked
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2930	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:39:00 - [94] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Well it aint this system thats for sure This system ranks everyone based largely off of their Win/Loss ratio and modifies the rank for each win and loss. The game then attempts to pair people with similar ranks against each other, effectively mean that those with a high W/L ratio fight people with a similar W/L ratio. It's like an ongoing tournament, where winning moves you up a bracket to fight others who have won a lot of battles, and losing drops you down a bracket to fight others who have lost. The more you win, the harder the opponents you face, and the harder it is to maintain that W/L ratio. Whereas as you lose, you fight easier and easier teams, making it easier to increase your W/L ratio.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3885	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:45:00 - [95] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Well it aint this system thats for sure This system ranks everyone based largely off of their Win/Loss ratio and modifies the rank for each win and loss. The game then attempts to pair people with similar ranks against each other, effectively mean that those with a high W/L ratio fight people with a similar W/L ratio. It's like an ongoing tournament, where winning moves you up a bracket to fight others who have won a lot of battles, and losing drops you down a bracket to fight others who have lost. The more you win, the harder the opponents you face, and the harder it is to maintain that W/L ratio. Whereas as you lose, you fight easier and easier teams, making it easier to increase your W/L ratio. Its not working
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2930	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:46:00 - [96] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So my question is what could be factored in to prevent really high scoring players from lowering their Mu without isk loss? (Afking as a squad in an MCC to help their team lose for 0 warppoints?) Player behavior in past games have actually shown this to be a serious issue even in games with massive player pools (halo 2 had such rank system) While I don't mind good players mixing it with the bad players and good players getting stomped to lower their ranks I do mind if they are doing it at no cost or activities that rob others of game content. Overall the conditions for ISK gain need to be moved away from simply existing in a battle, and more towards performing acts to help the team. Hacking, killing, repping, ect. should add to your ISK counter, and it should have very little to do with how much time spent in battle or any sort of flat rate. I also think the AFK timer needs to be more than just "As long as you're moving around, you're good." It needs better detection in terms of what constitutes as "in the battle" so that players intentionally not doing anything simply get booted. It's a real shame we never got a vote to kick option, that's how we dealt with AFKers in MAG.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2930	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:46:00 - [97] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Well it aint this system thats for sure This system ranks everyone based largely off of their Win/Loss ratio and modifies the rank for each win and loss. The game then attempts to pair people with similar ranks against each other, effectively mean that those with a high W/L ratio fight people with a similar W/L ratio. It's like an ongoing tournament, where winning moves you up a bracket to fight others who have won a lot of battles, and losing drops you down a bracket to fight others who have lost. The more you win, the harder the opponents you face, and the harder it is to maintain that W/L ratio. Whereas as you lose, you fight easier and easier teams, making it easier to increase your W/L ratio. Its not working Durrr I'm talking about the improvements that have been proposed.
Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2177	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:04:00 - [98] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So my question is what could be factored in to prevent really high scoring players from lowering their Mu without isk loss? (Afking as a squad in an MCC to help their team lose for 0 warppoints?) Player behavior in past games have actually shown this to be a serious issue even in games with massive player pools (halo 2 had such rank system) While I don't mind good players mixing it with the bad players and good players getting stomped to lower their ranks I do mind if they are doing it at no cost or activities that rob others of game content. This is an excellent question. One way to approach this is to use WPs/death (excluding suicide and teamkills). If you're AFKing to lower your Mu, you won't be dying. Players could still "game" the matchmaker by running into enemy fire in free suits, but then they're at least giving other players the satisfaction of easy kills, and destroying their own stats. I think it's a tough sell too: "Anyone want to squad up and try to get killed by the enemy over and over? Anyone? Anyone at all?" Best PvE idea ever!
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 1597	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:44:00 - [99] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So my question is what could be factored in to prevent really high scoring players from lowering their Mu without isk loss? (Afking as a squad in an MCC to help their team lose for 0 warppoints?) Player behavior in past games have actually shown this to be a serious issue even in games with massive player pools (halo 2 had such rank system) While I don't mind good players mixing it with the bad players and good players getting stomped to lower their ranks I do mind if they are doing it at no cost or activities that rob others of game content. You are probably best off combining a bunch of different stats to help account for this. Perhaps have a similar argument that accounts for both WP/s along with WP/d and either averages them or take the higher of the two. Which would likely still give you a pretty high correlation. Losing a match could also "cost" you fewer points. You could add logic as well to "negate" multiple 0 WP battle loses and victories. Including better AFK removal tools is a better solution though. My only issue would be it might segregate the player base via role. I know its pretty easy to rack up points in an HAV or logi but a dropship pilot or heavy that doesn't do as much "WP" earning activities will be left behind. My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1205	Posted - 2014.08.20 21:16:00 - [100] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Well it aint this system thats for sure This system ranks everyone based largely off of their Win/Loss ratio and modifies the rank for each win and loss. The game then attempts to pair people with similar ranks against each other, effectively mean that those with a high W/L ratio fight people with a similar W/L ratio. It's like an ongoing tournament, where winning moves you up a bracket to fight others who have won a lot of battles, and losing drops you down a bracket to fight others who have lost. The more you win, the harder the opponents you face, and the harder it is to maintain that W/L ratio. Whereas as you lose, you fight easier and easier teams, making it easier to increase your W/L ratio. Its not working Durrr I'm talking about the improvements that have been proposed. Pokey, he's an idiot who who is scared of math he doesn't understand, do not engage. This thread just has post after post of him making declarations that prove he has no idea what's going on and hasn't actually read what Rattati has said. We'll bang, OK?

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2262	Posted - 2014.08.20 21:42:00 - [101] - Quote I'm just looking forward to seeing what comes of this. Even if it was the only thing that made it into Delta, non-suckass matchmaking would make Delta a goddamn masterpiece.
Hakyou Brutor Pure Evil. 1091	Posted - 2014.08.20 22:40:00 - [102] - Quote I mean... you're a little late... but whatever. If CCP would have hired you from day one this game would have been much more successful. (yes, I realize Rattati is not the only one working on the hotfixes, but... even with less staff they have achieved more balancing than the full team achieved in almost 2 years... jus sayin)
iliel 0uter.Heaven 122	Posted - 2014.08.20 22:41:00 - [103] - Quote Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5555	Posted - 2014.08.20 23:42:00 - [104] - Quote SHANN da MAN wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hey players, this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such. To recap some of the things I have shared in the past. We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex) NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up. CCP Rattati wrote: Sorry, but you are assuming that because matchmaking is not effective currently, then Mu must be inherently wrong. The data says otherwise, KDR and WP ratios verify that Mu correlates with skill, regardless of the matchmaker. The problem with your current Mu calculation is that you are using Win/Loss (a TEAM metric) to calculate an INDIVIDUAL player's Mu. Players have NO ability to control who is on their team (other than the 6 in their squad, and even those aren't the same all the time) which can be populated by AFK'ers, or Griefers, or redliners, or Team Killers [in FW & PC], (etc.) and this affects their Win/Loss ratio which in turn affects their Mu. A better way to calculate Mu would be to use WP/Death [or WP/Sec, to keep the resulting calculated number smaller] (Individual Statistic) in place of Win/Loss (Team statistic). This would more accurately indicate a player's INDIVIDUAL effectiveness without being skewed by a TEAM based metric The data and analysis says that's not the case "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 3142	Posted - 2014.08.20 23:48:00 - [105] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: I mean... you're a little late... but whatever. If CCP would have hired you from day one this game would have been much more successful. (yes, I realize Rattati is not the only one working on the hotfixes, but... even with less staff they have achieved more balancing than the full team achieved in almost 2 years... jus sayin) Funfact: He's been with CCP since at least 1.4. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5555	Posted - 2014.08.20 23:48:00 - [106] - Quote iliel wrote: Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match. Well if their Mu goes down by doing that, then they will get easier opponents next time, which is probably what that person wants. I would just want to implement a punishment for AFKing and leaving battle, like moba games. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5555	Posted - 2014.08.20 23:49:00 - [107] - Quote Spademan wrote: Hakyou Brutor wrote: I mean... you're a little late... but whatever. If CCP would have hired you from day one this game would have been much more successful. (yes, I realize Rattati is not the only one working on the hotfixes, but... even with less staff they have achieved more balancing than the full team achieved in almost 2 years... jus sayin) Funfact: He's been with CCP since at least 1.4. With CCP since 2007, playing Dust since the beginning of time, working directly on Dust for 3 months. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2179	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:35:00 - [108] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: iliel wrote: Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match. Well if their Mu goes down by doing that, then they will get easier opponents next time, which is probably what that person wants. I would just want to implement a punishment for AFKing and leaving battle, like moba games. This begs the question, if WPs/death (excluding teamkills and suicide) is as good a metric for calculating Mu, but is much more difficult to manipulate than win/loss via sabotaging matches, why not use that stat? Best PvE idea ever!

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5562	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:38:00 - [109] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: iliel wrote: Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match. Well if their Mu goes down by doing that, then they will get easier opponents next time, which is probably what that person wants. I would just want to implement a punishment for AFKing and leaving battle, like moba games. This begs the question, if WPs/death (excluding teamkills and suicide) is as good a metric for calculating Mu, but is much more difficult to manipulate than win/loss via sabotaging matches, why not use that stat? This isn't really something that worries me right now, ie players gaming the matchmaking system. Any system can be gamed, the WP/s can easily be gamed by simply not doing anything for a few matches. But people who do that, will never ever play by any rules and game anything, so we just have to live with that (and them). "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2179	Posted - 2014.08.21 00:54:00 - [110] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Vell0cet wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: iliel wrote: Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match. Well if their Mu goes down by doing that, then they will get easier opponents next time, which is probably what that person wants. I would just want to implement a punishment for AFKing and leaving battle, like moba games. This begs the question, if WPs/death (excluding teamkills and suicide) is as good a metric for calculating Mu, but is much more difficult to manipulate than win/loss via sabotaging matches, why not use that stat? This isn't really something that worries me right now, ie players gaming the matchmaking system. Any system can be gamed, the WP/s can easily be gamed by simply not doing anything for a few matches. But people who do that, will never ever play by any rules and game anything, so we just have to live with that (and them). I agree there will always be players trying to game the system. It just seems like all things being equal, you go with the approach that would have the smallest negative impact on the other players. WPs/Death (excluding teamkills and suicide) would be a difficult stat to game (you'd have to repeatedly run into enemy fire). Players deliberately trying to sabotage the match would really ruin everyone else's experience. I could picture players intentionally placing uplinks in terrible locations (like parking a HAV ontop of it), or right in front of the enemy's position in the open so it's easy for them to spawn kill your teammates. How about calling in tons of LAVs so you can't counter enemy tanks with your own because of vehicle cap? using a dropship to crush teammates, or putting a CRU on your dropship, filling it up and then suiciding deep in the enemy redline, etc. It seems all of that BS could be completely bipassed by using WPs/Death (excluding suicide and teamkills). Perhaps there are technical reasons why this isn't practical? Best PvE idea ever!

iliel 0uter.Heaven 122	Posted - 2014.08.21 01:24:00 - [111] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: iliel wrote: Just thought of a question (not sure if it's been answered): what are you going to do about stat padders - - that is, players who join current battles and quit if the opposing team is stacked? I'm hoping people's Mu will decrease automatically when they leave a match. Well if their Mu goes down by doing that, then they will get easier opponents next time, which is probably what that person wants. I would just want to implement a punishment for AFKing and leaving battle, like moba games. You're right . Because if stat padders are penalized then their rank will drop. Therefore, they will be matched with easier opponents Therefore, they will be able to stat pad that much more easily. Moreover, the system takes care of AFKers because such players' WP/s ratio will be low.
Garth Mandra The Southern Legion Final Resolution. 412	Posted - 2014.08.21 02:06:00 - [112] - Quote One way to help discourage gaming and stat padding would be to just not make the stats visible. Just keep them hidden.
Vance Alken Commando Perkone Caldari State 167	Posted - 2014.08.21 03:02:00 - [113] - Quote Garth Mandra wrote: One way to help discourage gaming and stat padding would be to just not make the stats visible. Just keep them hidden. Yeah it'd certainly stop most people from attempting to stat pad, though anyone super dedicated to doing so would be able to find this thread :/
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition Negative-Feedback 3215	Posted - 2014.08.21 03:31:00 - [114] - Quote Might sound silly but I think I agree... WP/Death seems like it would make for a more universal metric of skill than WP/s. Simply ebcause each class generates WP in such drastically different ways. However, WP/Death... something that was discuss fairly in depth back when I was in Subdreddit (ages and ages ago...) it almost always correlated with the more skilled players. We also noticed that WP/D seemed generally irrespective of gear. Skilled players who ran STD gear would still end up around where I was running in a mix of proto and advanced. I know your data is saying that the 99% correlation on WP/s is generally better than the 92% but man... just thinking about it for a second as a player WP/D just seems fundamentally better than WP/s. I also wonder how afk farming affects the WP/s metric in addition to the redline sniping theory you also postulate. Back in the day, during really busy periods of school.. I would happily afk farm entire weeks of SP bonus. Seriously, i'm talking about straight afk farming through 2-3 weeks at a time during midterms and research updates. It is not an insignificant amount of my in-game time that is dedicated purely to afk farming. Its reflected in my W/L ratio and most definitely in my WP/s. My WP/D however, along with my K/D we're never impacted by this. Something to consider... I think what you're doing here Rattati is absolutely fantastic, my only feedback would be to take a good hard look at WP/s vs. WP/D. B C R U are letters, not words - Wierd Al Yankovich

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 5567	Posted - 2014.08.21 04:09:00 - [115] - Quote I agree with you guys that WP/D is a much better concept for a player to maximize. I think that WP/D is what should be shown to the players in the EOM screen, and since it is so highly correlated, we can use WP/s, Mu or WP/D behind the scenes, the data tells us they are more or less shades of gray of the same thing. Thanks for the feedback, and ISKdestroyed/ISKlost is something I need to calculate as well, it's not as accessible but I should be able to dig it up and correlate with these. It's just the problem that that is such a slayer concept, and completely negates hacki scouts, and reppy logis, and so forth. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Vell0cet Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 2181	Posted - 2014.08.21 04:57:00 - [116] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks for the feedback, and ISKdestroyed/ISKlost is something I need to calculate as well, it's not as accessible but I should be able to dig it up and correlate with these. It's just the problem that that is such a slayer concept, and completely negates hacki scouts, and reppy logis, and so forth. One way to offset this drawback on logis is to include the value of kills when they get a guardian bonus. Logis and hacki scouts already suffer from K/D, and at least ISK efficiency disincentivises stomping. As you know, in EVE, when someone brings out a blinged out fit, it's like having a giant bullseye painted on your ship, and everyone wants to gang up on you to pad their efficiency stats. The same kinds of social pressure would work in DUST: "He's wearing PRO! lets get him!" I also think this would be a useful metric for balancing vehicle prices. Are they exceptionally ISK-efficient? Exceptionally ISK-inefficient? It would help inform the conversation at the very least. Best PvE idea ever!
RedPencil Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 65	Posted - 2014.08.21 08:22:00 - [117] - Quote To fix matching, you also need to trow " ping, lag, and internet latency " in your formula. match lager to play together. Lager cost more problem. Beware paper cut M[;..;]M
H0riz0n Unlimit Inner.Hell 153	Posted - 2014.08.21 10:24:00 - [118] - Quote The fact is that till japanese are against me i will never have a good match, we can have the same wp/s but i will move at 1 frame for minute. It s ok you try to resolve some problems but i still prefer a matchmaking based on connection and ping Tanker since I was born -- Want back my blaster -- Madrugar 1125/6753 -- Reduce weakspot dimension
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1215	Posted - 2014.08.21 11:22:00 - [119] - Quote H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: The fact is that till japanese are against me i will never have a good match, we can have the same wp/s but i will move at 1 frame for minute. It s ok you try to resolve some problems but i still prefer a matchmaking based on connection and ping lol, you're just a walking stereotype ain't ya? Especially with that sig. We'll bang, OK?
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 1578	Posted - 2014.08.21 11:42:00 - [120] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I agree with you guys that WP/D is a much better concept for a player to maximize. I think that WP/D is what should be shown to the players in the EOM screen, and since it is so highly correlated, we can use WP/s, Mu or WP/D behind the scenes, the data tells us they are more or less shades of gray of the same thing. Thanks for the feedback, and ISKdestroyed/ISKlost is something I need to calculate as well, it's not as accessible but I should be able to dig it up and correlate with these. It's just the problem that that is such a slayer concept, and completely negates hacki scouts, and reppy logis, and so forth. It does negate the hacking scouts and logi's but ISK efficiency is a metric I've been wanting since day one of playing Dust and the maths is so simple (although pulling the data might not be) that its annoyed me to be honest that we've not had it. 1.2M ISK destroyed minus 3.4M ISK spent equals -2.2M ISK, divide that by the ISK spend equals -0.647 and then times by 100 giving you an ISK efficiency of -64.7%. In other words, as a mercenary, you're not a profitable one. 3.4M destroyed against 1.2M spent however gives you a 183.3% ISK efficiency. To take into account the 'zero' cost in ISK at least of BPO's, you just give them the ISK value of the equivalent module. An AUR and LP efficiency leader-board could be interesting too. CPM 1 member CEO of DUST University Vist dustcpm.com



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