That's the aspect we desperately need to fix.

To come back to the proposed matchmaking mechanics using WP/s, I think it's a very good step in the right direction
My only worry have already been voiced by others in this thread, which is that this system might give a bias to certain roles, such as the Logi.

Since we ARE mercenaries, I wouldn't mind having ISK as a factor in matchmaking. The ability to go ISK positive is a powerful force in players minds, and if one can introduce a factor based on ISK destroyed vs ISK lost would help I think.

As hinted before, I suspect the loopy matchmaking is due to the fact that most players seems to reside within the Mu 22,5 - 27,5, which is not a wide enough spread to reflect player skill (Disclamer: statement made without any knowledge how big pool of players CCP Rattati have used for his statistics). My point being; It might be dangerous to try and correlate any new mechanic to this value, as we know it does not work very good to begin with.

I would be interested to see how the distribution (of WP/s) would look (recalculated based on the lifetime battles of all players in the statistics, if such data is available)
If players are more distributed along the curve, I say we are on the right track.

Your other point, the distribution around 25, is just the fact that relatively new players outnumber the old players, that's just how the online business is, we have a very long tail, just like EVE, but only a small part of all the new blood retains for years.

Could we see a distribution of Mu in the playerbase with all players under some lifetime WP amount removed? This would allow us to see how well Mu is distributed when you exclude that large pool of newer players that are skewing the curve?

To come back to the proposed matchmaking mechanics using WP/s, I think it's a very good step in the right direction
My only worry have already been voiced by others in this thread, which is that this system might give a bias to certain roles, such as the Logi.

Since we ARE mercenaries, I wouldn't mind having ISK as a factor in matchmaking. The ability to go ISK positive is a powerful force in players minds, and if one can introduce a factor based on ISK destroyed vs ISK lost would help I think.

As hinted before, I suspect the loopy matchmaking is due to the fact that most players seems to reside within the Mu 22,5 - 27,5, which is not a wide enough spread to reflect player skill (Disclamer: statement made without any knowledge how big pool of players CCP Rattati have used for his statistics). My point being; It might be dangerous to try and correlate any new mechanic to this value, as we know it does not work very good to begin with.

I would be interested to see how the distribution (of WP/s) would look (recalculated based on the lifetime battles of all players in the statistics, if such data is available)
If players are more distributed along the curve, I say we are on the right track.

Hey players,

this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such.

To recap some of the things I have shared in the past.

We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex)

NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss

So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up.

Sorry, but you are assuming that because matchmaking is not effective currently, then Mu must be inherently wrong. The data says otherwise, KDR and WP ratios verify that Mu correlates with skill, regardless of the matchmaker.

Sorry, but you are assuming that because matchmaking is not effective currently, then Mu must be inherently wrong. The data says otherwise, KDR and WP ratios verify that Mu correlates with skill, regardless of the matchmaker.

Your other point, the distribution around 25, is just the fact that relatively new players outnumber the old players, that's just how the online business is, we have a very long tail, just like EVE, but only a small part of all the new blood retains for years.

The problem with your current Mu calculation is that you are using Win/Loss (a TEAM metric) to calculate an INDIVIDUAL player's Mu. Players have NO ability to control who is on their team (other than the 6 in their squad, and even those aren't the same all the time) and this affects their Win/Loss ratio which in turn affects their Mu.

A better way to calculate Mu would be to use WP/Death (Individual Statistic) in place of Win/Loss (Team statistic). This would more accurately indicate a player's INDIVIDUAL effectiveness without being skewed by a TEAM based metric

Could you not pick a more complicated way for matchmaking?

Thats so long winded and terrible

1st of all you have to match squads with squads so it isnt 2 squads vs academy solo noobs

Really if you want stop proto stomping and level the playing field then you have to match make by gear, its the only way

Basic vs basic etc and have lobbies that limit by gear, even if its 2squads vs solo randoms the gear is similar so its more down to skill and aim

FW/PC would be free for all gear and maybe squads might be more inclined to play those modes since proto vs proto might be empty most of the time because they cannot stomp of milita gear noobs

Problem is vehicles tho by gear since you refuse to give us adv/proto hulls and balance AV with each tier

So, as a player with 40+ Million SP, over two years of experience, and runs only Standard gear every match without exception, I should be paired against new players who also only run standard gear (Because that's all they have) and then never get paired against other experienced players who typically run higher level gear? That's what would happen if matchmaking was built around gear alone.

It would be like living in the academy, kicking the teeth in of players who don't even know how to play yet. No thanks, that's boring as hell.

Well, if Rattati introduce WP/s (which is a individual parameter) to complement or even replace Mu, this would solve that issue, right?

But you also have lobbies for adv/proto or you could go to FW/PC and also it would be squads vs squads so it would be better than what it currently would be

Also academy would be extended by a large amount of WP like 100k or more but dust is easy to learn anyways

But you also have lobbies for adv/proto or you could go to FW/PC and also it would be squads vs squads so it would be better than what it currently would be

Also academy would be extended by a large amount of WP like 100k or more but dust is easy to learn anyways

Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill.

Well for one FW matchmaking can't simply be ignored. We also see massive problems in that game mode, so it can't just be a 'free for all' like it currently is. So then I have to go to PC to have a challenging fight? Well then I have to use Proto because everyone else does, and that's just something I dont like doing as a player. So what are my options? Play standard like I enjoy doing but get stuck against noobies in pubs and FW? Or go full proto like I don't like doing, to get a decent fight? You're just pidgeonholing people because you want an overy simplistic approach that only takes gear into account, when many very good players don't even rely on Proto gear to succeed.

All I want is to be able to use the gear I normally do, load up a pub match, and fight against people who win and succeed about as much as I do. I don't care if they're using proto, I don't care if they're using militia. All I want is to fight against people who are roughly of the same skill level that I am. You're simply NOT going to get that with a matchmaking system built around gear alone.

So you want to put players with 99k WPs in the same match as players launching DUST for the first time, still trying to figure out which buttons do what? No, the best solution is to have a short academy like we have, and then add a second-tier academy as an optional game mode (the only one checked by default). This would cap out at some SP threshold (like 5 mill SP). It would allow new players to play enough unmolested by protostompers to build up a decently competitive ADV fit with good core skills, as well as generating enough data to build a reasonably accurate Mu score. It also gives them the freedom to try a variety of more competitive game modes if they're looking for a challenge. Once they graduate, the matchmaker will be able to better place them on more balanced teams, and they'll have the skills (and possibly social connections at this point) to have a lot more fun.

MU score is broken as ****

You stomp or get stomped there is no middle ground, squads dont even fight each other they end up on the same side the vast majority of the time

No you go to PC/FW if you generally gonna use proto and PC is a challenging fight generally but if matchmaking put squads against each other then there is a challenging fight in basic gear instead of idiots vs 2 squads in full proto

Same skill level? rarely happens you either get crushed or do the crushing there is no middle ground

Ok so say I DONT want use proto, and use Standard as I always do. In a Gear-Based system, I would consistently get stuck up against new players. Why should I be forced to use higher gear to fight veteran opponents?

Lol and the reason you get stomps is because more often than not you get one side made of players who win often fighting a side that wins less often. WIth the system that Rattati is proposing, the current Proto stompers would get paired against teams that win frequently.

Did you actually read the thread? Squads would be put on opposite teams now.

Would you always be against new players?

If noobs stay in academy longer it means most likely you will fight players that actually know how to play because dust isnt hard

Not all players who use Standard gear are new, but all new players use standard gear.

It's not just about learning the game, its your plan sticking me in matches where every new player will be, without exception. Yes there may be a few vets sprinkled in there, but the majority WILL be new players. "Dust isn't that hard to learn" you're right, but what about SP advantage? How long would you suggest a player stay in the academy before they're ready for the real world?

Let me ask you this, what does a gear-based matchmaking system offer over a win-loss based system? What advantages does it have that the Win-based system does not?

What stops a veteran from using standard gear knowing it will likely pit him against newer players with less SP in order to use his SP advantage to stomp?

What stops a veteran from using proto gear knowing it will pit him against newer players with less SP in order to use his SP and proto advantage to stomp?