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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5483
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Posted - 2014.08.20 03:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey players,
this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such.
To recap some of the things I have shared in the past.
We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex)
NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss
So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up.
This is a modified version of elo ranking, used in many competitive sports such as chess, major league team sports and esports. Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill.
The underlying problem is that after one match, everyone is very close to 25, and 2 battles, even 10 battles in, only the very best (and worst) have begun to be different from the pack.
That's why it's imperative to find a proxy for Mu for the first battles, which is what comes next in our findings.
Now to the data. I have been working with a big sample of player data, testing multiple theories, some from the forums (WP/Death), the ever classic K/D of course and a time based WP/second and the results are very promising.
DATA
By creating buckets of Mu, I can calculate the three ratios of the players within each those Mu buckets and create a correlation table against Mu. That Correlation is then shown graphically on the top Chart.
Seeing that two of them are obviously logarithmic in nature, I normalize with the log function and get the bottom chart, Normalized Correlation.
Calculating and also just analyzing the graphs, we find that the correlation between WP/s and Mu is a towering 99%, and a bit lower for the other two, but still statistically very relevant. It basically means that all of them could be used in place of Mu in the beginning while Mu converges, and even in place of Mu overall.
Now, our next step is to implement a better use of this data. One simple way would be to say, instead of exiting the Academy at an earned WP basis, it's not until you actually reach a minimum threshold of WP/s. It is also imperative to utilize this information more during the teambuilding part of the matchmaker. In any sport, if the two best players are on the opposite side, everyone, even the bad players, can have fun and be inspired by the good players. If both of them are on the same side, nobody has fun.
I hope you enjoyed this little insight piece
P.S. Those with eagle eyes will notice a weird anomaly in the two lowest Mu brackets for the both WP/Death and K/D ratios, but not for WP/s. My theory, is, and not based on prejudice at all, is redline snipers. My reasoning is that they are able to avoid death rather easily, they will be able to pick off stragglers and low hitpoint suits on a regular basis but sadly, have little to no relevance to the battle result, as they do not hack nor defend objectives effectively. Why their WP/s does not show that, I theorize, is because they spend quite some time getting to a mountain top, and or with a dropship to a tower, and if they die, they are forced to do so again. Feel free to burn me at the stake, and/or voice your alternative theories.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Meee One
Hello Kitty Logistics
1000
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Posted - 2014.08.20 03:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hey players, this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such. To recap some of the things I have shared in the past. We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex) NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up. This is a modified version of elo ranking, used in many competitive sports such as chess, major league team sports and esports. Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill. The underlying problem is that after one match, everyone is very close to 25, and 2 battles, even 10 battles in, only the very best (and worst) have begun to be different from the pack. That's why it's imperative to find a proxy for Mu for the first battles, which is what comes next in our findings. Now to the data. I have been working with a big sample of player data, testing multiple theories, some from the forums (WP/Death), the ever classic K/D of course and a time based WP/second and the results are very promising. DATABy creating buckets of Mu, I can calculate the three ratios of the players within each those Mu buckets and create a correlation table against Mu. That Correlation is then shown graphically on the top Chart. Seeing that two of them are obviously logarithmic in nature, I normalize with the log function and get the bottom chart, Normalized Correlation. Calculating and also just analyzing the graphs, we find that the correlation between WP/s and Mu is a towering 99%, and a bit lower for the other two, but still statistically very relevant. It basically means that all of them could be used in place of Mu in the beginning while Mu converges, and even in place of Mu overall. Now, our next step is to implement a better use of this data. One simple way would be to say, instead of exiting the Academy at an earned WP basis, it's not until you actually reach a minimum threshold of WP/s. It is also imperative to utilize this information more during the teambuilding part of the matchmaker. In any sport, if the two best players are on the opposite side, everyone, even the bad players, can have fun and be inspired by the good players. If both of them are on the same side, nobody has fun. I hope you enjoyed this little insight piece P.S. Those with eagle eyes will notice a weird anomaly in the two lowest Mu brackets for the both WP/Death and K/D ratios, but not for WP/s. My theory, is, and not based on prejudice at all, is redline snipers. My reasoning is that they are able to avoid death rather easily, they will be able to pick off stragglers and low hitpoint suits on a regular basis but sadly, have little to no relevance to the battle result, as they do not hack nor defend objectives effectively. Why their WP/s does not show that, I theorize, is because they spend quite some time getting to a mountain top, and or with a dropship to a tower, and if they die, they are forced to do so again. Feel free to burn me at the stake, and/or voice your alternative theories. Lol,you said Mu.
But seriously wouldn't WP/D end up putting support logis vsing other support logis?
Until there are more ways to earn WP,that would be a bad method to use.
Was banned for fighting for logistics survival on 7/25/2014 02:11. Logistics will never be respected.
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Vell0cet
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
2166
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Posted - 2014.08.20 03:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which side? I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no?
Best PvE idea ever!
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5484
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Posted - 2014.08.20 03:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no?
That's the aspect we desperately need to fix.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Vell0cet
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
2166
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Posted - 2014.08.20 03:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no? That's the aspect we desperately need to fix. One approach to consider is using social networking algorithms. Are these players frequently squadding together? If so, then they're likely going to be well-coordinated, that should give them a higher weight for deciding teams, as opposed to people who randomly found each other using the squad finder. They would have a much lower frequency of squadding together in their histories, and will likely be less effective as a unit with a correspondingly lower weight for deciding team balance.
Edit: Also, at the end-of-match screen are players significantly above or below the median WP score for the match (say by a factor greater than 3)? In these cases it might make sense to make a larger adjustment to their Mu scores.
Best PvE idea ever!
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iliel
0uter.Heaven
121
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Hey players, this is more of a chat and sharing session than anything else, so please treat it as such. To recap some of the things I have shared in the past. We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex) NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up. This is a modified version of elo ranking, used in many competitive sports such as chess, major league team sports and esports. Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill. The underlying problem is that after one match, everyone is very close to 25, and 2 battles, even 10 battles in, only the very best (and worst) have begun to be different from the pack. That's why it's imperative to find a proxy for Mu for the first battles, which is what comes next in our findings. Now to the data. I have been working with a big sample of player data, testing multiple theories, some from the forums (WP/Death), the ever classic K/D of course and a time based WP/second and the results are very promising. DATABy creating buckets of Mu, I can calculate the three ratios of the players within each those Mu buckets and create a correlation table against Mu. That Correlation is then shown graphically on the top Chart. Seeing that two of them are obviously logarithmic in nature, I normalize with the log function and get the bottom chart, Normalized Correlation. Calculating and also just analyzing the graphs, we find that the correlation between WP/s and Mu is a towering 99%, and a bit lower for the other two, but still statistically very relevant. It basically means that all of them could be used in place of Mu in the beginning while Mu converges, and even in place of Mu overall. Now, our next step is to implement a better use of this data. One simple way would be to say, instead of exiting the Academy at an earned WP basis, it's not until you actually reach a minimum threshold of WP/s. It is also imperative to utilize this information more during the teambuilding part of the matchmaker. In any sport, if the two best players are on the opposite side, everyone, even the bad players, can have fun and be inspired by the good players. If both of them are on the same side, nobody has fun. I hope you enjoyed this little insight piece P.S. Those with eagle eyes will notice a weird anomaly in the two lowest Mu brackets for the both WP/Death and K/D ratios, but not for WP/s. My theory, is, and not based on prejudice at all, is redline snipers. My reasoning is that they are able to avoid death rather easily, they will be able to pick off stragglers and low hitpoint suits on a regular basis but sadly, have little to no relevance to the battle result, as they do not hack nor defend objectives effectively. Why their WP/s does not show that, I theorize, is because they spend quite some time getting to a mountain top, and or with a dropship to a tower, and if they die, they are forced to do so again. Feel free to burn me at the stake, and/or voice your alternative theories.
This all looks great. I don't see why you can't just add the Mu score system into the current mechanics with a (let us call it) Charlie(2) hotfix this coming week so that it can at least begin collecting data. I suspect that, after having the algorithm, you just need to add several 'if-then' statements to scotty. (I'm looking forward to getting caught in infinite loops during matchmaking; it will be refreshing )
Also, just a question: you can actually track each of our WP/s historically since our character was born? |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1002
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Even a squad of six randoms will consistently beat six unsquadded randoms.
I strongly believe that squad members should get additional mu, that grows more as the squad size grows (i.e. more than linearly)
Dust/Eve transfers
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5488
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:Even a squad of six randoms will consistently beat six unsquadded randoms.
I strongly believe that squad members should get additional mu, that grows more as the squad size grows (i.e. more than linearly)
The algorithm we are testing is
====
All squads and solo players are transformed into units
Each unit in the 32 man pool is designated with a rank, I am proposing sum of WP/s to be absolutely sure that the biggest squads with the best players are 100% not on the same side.
Top rank unit gets placed randomly on Team A or B. Team A in this case.
Units are then placed on Team B until sum of Team B exceeds sum of Team A.
Now, Units are added to Team A and switched, and so forth until all units are assigned.
We may have to increase the pool to 32+ to accommodate differing sizes of squads so we have "filler" solo players to create the 16 v 16 team. Those unfortunate enough to not get added to a team would be pushed back into the queue for the next matchmaking attempt.
====
This algorithm should always get the two best units on either team. It will also always pitch the second best unit and the third best unit against the top unit. If a solo players rank actually exceeds a squads rank, he will be placed above that squad (up to the extent that the top rank is around a 100, which equates to a squad of 6 players with a rank of 14). If top ranked players try to game the system and not join as a squad, they will still end up on opposing teams.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cruor Abominare
Horizons' Edge Proficiency V.
134
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
I certainly don't have the data available to myself that you guys do, but I think you'll generally find that people who squad do it consistently. So I don't see any need to adjust their mu over them squading, its simply a way for them to climb up to a more appropriate rank that refelects their ability in battle which they're generally doing in a group anyways.
Even if they change habits and stop squadding their mu would eventually drop to compensate for it. Your match making goal just needs to try to keep the overall mu's close together and I think we as players can tolerate any deviation if the result actually improves the lopsidedness of the game right now.
Honestly I'd suggest staring at the sc2 method of "elo" determining. Academy battles simply just try to assign a starting elo group to put them in, then by following what happens in the games afterwards tries to correct any deviation. The highest tiers of course are locked out of you from getting in just your first testing battles but if your system works even if the player is getting stomped just out of acadmey because assigned a false score the system should start dropping them down and fixing the problem.
So lets say academy is 10 battles or whatever, you assign a mu score based on how they did with the other guys smurfing or actually starting the game. Their mu score tosses them into a midrange mu score but the next ten battles outsideof that you notice an appreciable difference like their core stats halving or the their kdr going from 2 to .01, then you know to look into readjusting their mu score.
So basically so have a system that assigns them an estimated mu just to get them in the general population but checks back at say every 10 or 15 games (or whatever your deviation points are) and reassigns them again if their true mu is too far away from their estimated mu. Eventually on the long run your estimate and true mu should coincide if you've picked functioning systems to base your mu off of.
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iliel
0uter.Heaven
121
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Posted - 2014.08.20 04:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no? That's the aspect we desperately need to fix. One approach to consider is using social networking algorithms. Are these players frequently squadding together? If so, then they're likely going to be well-coordinated, that should give them a higher weight for deciding teams, as opposed to people who randomly found each other using the squad finder. They would have a much lower frequency of squadding together in their histories, and will likely be less effective as a unit with a correspondingly lower weight for deciding team balance. Edit: Also, at the end-of-match screen are players significantly above or below the median WP score for the match (say by a factor greater than 3)? In these cases it might make sense to make a larger adjustment to their Mu scores.
I disagree with your first point and probably think the second point be bracketed for the moment.
First, I think many players who squad together will have inflated Mu scores. It is much more difficult to run solo. If one or two players squad constantly with two other players who are much better than them, then the prior will appear to be better than they are. I, for one, used to squad with people who had much more SP than I did (still do, in fact) yet was able to use them to score much more warpoints than I would have if I were alone. Would have been a rude awakening when I squadded alone after that. I think such experiences are essential to FPSes.
Second, I think that we should implement a ranking algorithm before adding certain provisions to it (such as, a certain player's score in relation to those of other players in a given match implies that this player ought to receive x-times Mu points for it). To me, adding a ranking algorithm at all to Dust will better the experience of the game so much that whether it is rudimentary or not means less than whether it is introduced ASAP. |
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castba
Merc-0107
579
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no? That's the aspect we desperately need to fix. Give us back the 1 min in Warbarge to make squads. If there are still solo players with 10 seconds left, create and/fill squads randomly. This would ensure there are always 3 squads per side (although it doesn't mean they will work together) and may even lead to developing "friendships", thus aiding player retention, yes? |
Vell0cet
Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire
2167
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
iliel wrote:Vell0cet wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no? That's the aspect we desperately need to fix. One approach to consider is using social networking algorithms. Are these players frequently squadding together? If so, then they're likely going to be well-coordinated, that should give them a higher weight for deciding teams, as opposed to people who randomly found each other using the squad finder. They would have a much lower frequency of squadding together in their histories, and will likely be less effective as a unit with a correspondingly lower weight for deciding team balance. Edit: Also, at the end-of-match screen are players significantly above or below the median WP score for the match (say by a factor greater than 3)? In these cases it might make sense to make a larger adjustment to their Mu scores. I disagree with your first point and probably think the second point be bracketed for the moment. First, I think many players who squad together will have inflated Mu scores. It is much more difficult to run solo. If one or two players squad constantly with two other players who are much better than them, then the prior will appear to be better than they are. I, for one, used to squad with people who had much more SP than I did (still do, in fact) yet was able to use them to score much more warpoints than I would have if I were alone. Would have been a rude awakening when I squadded alone after that. I think such experiences are essential to FPSes. Second, I think that we should implement a ranking algorithm before adding certain provisions to it (such as, a certain player's score in relation to those of other players in a given match implies that this player ought to receive x-times Mu points for it). To me, adding a ranking algorithm at all to Dust will better the experience of the game so much that whether it is rudimentary or not means less than whether it is introduced ASAP. Just to formalize what I was spitballing earlier. HereGÇÖs one algorithm for approaching this problem:
Use a second variable (IGÇÖm calling it lambda for no particular reason)
1. All unsquaded players their lambda = their mu 2. For Squaded players:
squad_size_modifier = 1 + (player_count_in_squad * 0.05) squad_cohesion_modifier = 1 + (historical_cohesion_of_squad * 2) squad lambda = sum( mu_of_players_in_squad ) * squad_size_modifier * squad_cohesion_modifier
[The historical_cohesion_of_squad would be a value between 0.0 (all squad members have never played together before) and 1.0 (squad members very regularly play in the same squad with each other)]
3. The distribution of players would proceed as CCP Rattati described with the squad lambdas being placed first followed by the rest of the players with squads. All of the modifiers could be tweaked of course, this was just a rough sketch to illustrate how this could be done.
What I'm describing doesn't actually affect player's Mu score, it's a secondary stat used for balancing who is on what team. I might have a mediocre MU score, but I'm significantly more dangerous to the opposing team if I'm squadded up, especially if I'm squadded up with people I regularly play with. This will help get more balanced fights.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Apothecary Za'ki
Biomass Positive
573
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
i highly doubt this "new" approch will work for matchmakeing..
i have stated several times in several threads the only way to get balance is to.. 1. create an average WP over time leaderboard system. 2. take the player average WP data 3. match players with similar WP averages with others of similar averages. 3.1 players in squads will be matched by "Squad Median" but not including empty slots in the squad, so if there is 4/6 in squad 1 it will only take the median of the 4/4 excluding the remander 2 which would mathmatically be a 0 each(unless populated by members) 4. if all turns out well.. newberrys should be matched more against newberrys while vets/pros/squads should be pit against more vets/pros/squads
[[LogiBro in Training]]
Level 1 Forum Pariah
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5494
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:iliel wrote:Vell0cet wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is awesome. Thanks for sharing this!
How is each team made up? In other words, say you have 32 players with similar Mu scores, how does it determine which 16 players are on which sides. I always scratch my head when Scotty puts 2 full squads of talented players against 16 randoms. Surely it would make for a better match if those squads were on opposite teams, no? That's the aspect we desperately need to fix. One approach to consider is using social networking algorithms. Are these players frequently squadding together? If so, then they're likely going to be well-coordinated, that should give them a higher weight for deciding teams, as opposed to people who randomly found each other using the squad finder. They would have a much lower frequency of squadding together in their histories, and will likely be less effective as a unit with a correspondingly lower weight for deciding team balance. Edit: Also, at the end-of-match screen are players significantly above or below the median WP score for the match (say by a factor greater than 3)? In these cases it might make sense to make a larger adjustment to their Mu scores. I disagree with your first point and probably think the second point be bracketed for the moment. First, I think many players who squad together will have inflated Mu scores. It is much more difficult to run solo. If one or two players squad constantly with two other players who are much better than them, then the prior will appear to be better than they are. I, for one, used to squad with people who had much more SP than I did (still do, in fact) yet was able to use them to score much more warpoints than I would have if I were alone. Would have been a rude awakening when I squadded alone after that. I think such experiences are essential to FPSes. Second, I think that we should implement a ranking algorithm before adding certain provisions to it (such as, a certain player's score in relation to those of other players in a given match implies that this player ought to receive x-times Mu points for it). To me, adding a ranking algorithm at all to Dust will better the experience of the game so much that whether it is rudimentary or not means less than whether it is introduced ASAP. Just to formalize what I was spitballing earlier. HereGÇÖs one algorithm for approaching this problem: Use a second variable (IGÇÖm calling it lambda for no particular reason) 1. All unsquaded players their lambda = their mu 2. For Squaded players: squad_size_modifier = 1 + (player_count_in_squad * 0.05) squad_cohesion_modifier = 1 + (historical_cohesion_of_squad * 2) squad lambda = sum( mu_of_players_in_squad ) * squad_size_modifier * squad_cohesion_modifier [The historical_cohesion_of_squad would be a value between 0.0 (all squad members have never played together before) and 1.0 (squad members very regularly play in the same squad with each other)] 3. The distribution of players would proceed as CCP Rattati described with the squad lambdas being placed first followed by the rest of the players without squads. All of the modifiers could be tweaked of course, this was just a rough sketch to illustrate how this could be done. What I'm describing doesn't actually affect player's Mu score, it's a secondary stat used for balancing who is on what team. I might have a mediocre Mu score, but I'm significantly more dangerous to the opposing team if I'm squadded up, especially if I'm squadded up with people I regularly play with. This will help get more balanced fights. Edit: So just to clarify: The 32 players are chosen by their Mu scores. the 16 v. 16 would be organized by lambda scores.
This is basically the method we are proposing, you are adding a squad bonus modifying parameter which could be useful to tweak the system, and we already have a design for that (I just didn't mention it).
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5494
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:i highly doubt this "new" approch will work for matchmakeing.. i have stated several times in several threads the only way to get balance is to.. 1. create an average WP over time leaderboard system. 2. take the player average WP data 3. match players with similar WP averages with others of similar averages. 3.1 players in squads will be matched by "Squad Median" but not including empty slots in the squad, so if there is 4/6 in squad 1 it will only take the median of the 4/4 excluding the remander 2 which would mathmatically be a 0 each(unless populated by members) 4. if all turns out well.. newberrys should be matched more against newberrys while vets/pros/squads should be pit against more vets/pros/squads
While it is very similar to what I laid out, I don't see how this is an improvement to the proposal.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Hubert De LaBatte
Prima Gallicus
27
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
The idea is very good. But I play since 3 hours and my squad (3 prima gallicus) are continuely coming into started battles and always with all red and no shield.
Every time I say "challenge guys, we return the game!", but the time we are deploying, armor is half of the max. we fight, we take objectives but it seems that all our blues are searching flowers all around the map and we are always the 3 same in the battlefront.
So it's clear, the problem is a lot of new players and they are 13 in our team. They don't know the game and what to do on the map.
So firstly, push the academy at 20 000 wp. They will have time to learn and the old players will go with new players with a few experience. Not guys who try to find the fire button on the controller.
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5494
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Hubert De LaBatte wrote:The idea is very good. But I play since 3 hours and my squad (3 prima gallicus) are continuely coming into started battles and always with all red and no shield.
Every time I say "challenge guys, we return the game!", but the time we are deploying, armor is half of the max. we fight, we take objectives but it seems that all our blues are searching flowers all around the map and we are always the 3 same in the battlefront.
So it's clear, the problem is a lot of new players and they are 13 in our team. They don't know the game and what to do on the map.
So firstly, push the academy at 20 000 wp. They will have time to learn and the old players will go with new players with a few experience. Not guys who try to find the fire button on the controller.
We will be looking at academy graduation as a part of this, and another problem you mention, i.e. joining "lost" battles is another identified issue we are actively trying to fix.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1002
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote: This is basically the method we are proposing, you are adding a squad bonus modifying parameter which could be useful to tweak the system, and we already have a design for that (I just didn't mention it).
Squad size multiplier does make a difference. I know I perform consistently better in a squad of 6 than in a squad of 2. While long-term, squadding up will increase someone's average WP/minute total, from a match-by-match point of view, the matchmaker needs to detect the difference between three squads of 2 average players, and one squad of 6 average players; all in all, the larger squad will punch above their weight, not least because of scared passive scan and orbital strikes.
Dust/Eve transfers
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5494
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: This is basically the method we are proposing, you are adding a squad bonus modifying parameter which could be useful to tweak the system, and we already have a design for that (I just didn't mention it).
Squad size multiplier does make a difference. I know I perform consistently better in a squad of 6 than in a squad of 2. While long-term, squadding up will increase someone's average WP/minute total, from a match-by-match point of view, the matchmaker needs to detect the difference between three squads of 2 average players, and one squad of 6 average players; all in all, the larger squad will punch above their weight, not least because they'll be able to drop orbital strikes first.
Using sum instead of median makes sure that squad size is taken into account.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Anarchide
Greedy Bastards
2486
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
So, the Mu is the "Meta" level of a player?
Dust Loyalist
Greedy Bastards
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3152
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have mad respect for Rattati bringing one of the most critical issues in the game design into the public eye. It's like Christmas. Only in August. And I have to work today.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1002
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote: Using sum instead of median makes sure that squad size is taken into account.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there's a bunch of players joining a battle, wouldn't it end up like so?
Step one: rank all the units
1: squad of six @ 25, so rank 150 2. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 3. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 4. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 5. solo player, rank 24 6. solo player, rank 24 7-32. solo players, rank 20
If I understand correctly, the final teams would be:
Team A: squad[6] solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster
Team B: squad[2] squad[2] squad[2] solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster
What I suggest is that the squad of 6 is functionally more lethal than the three squads of 2, even if they contain equal-level players.
So if there were a bonus given to squads (let's say modified fibonacci: +1, +2, +3, +5, +8 pts) then the matchmaking would instead end up with the teams:
Team A: squad[6] 150pts + 8pt squad modifier solo 20 filling the roster
Team B: squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier solo 24 solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster
Dust/Eve transfers
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Anarchide
Greedy Bastards
2486
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Posted - 2014.08.20 05:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Players' Meta level should take into account:
Win/Loss Ratio
Kill/Death Ratio
War Points/second
Levels of Skills Learned
Gear owned/used
Dust Loyalist
Greedy Bastards
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
5498
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
SponkSponkSponk wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: Using sum instead of median makes sure that squad size is taken into account.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there's a bunch of players joining a battle, wouldn't it end up like so? Step one: rank all the units 1: squad of six @ 25, so rank 150 2. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 3. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 4. squad of two @ 25, so rank 50 5. solo player, rank 24 6. solo player, rank 24 7-32. solo players, rank 20 If I understand correctly, the final teams would be: Team A: squad[6] solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster Team B: squad[2] squad[2] squad[2] solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster What I suggest is that the squad of 6 is functionally more lethal than the three squads of 2, even if they contain equal-level players. So if there were a bonus given to squads (let's say modified fibonacci: +1, +2, +3, +5, +8 pts) then the matchmaking would instead end up with the teams: Team A: squad[6] 150pts + 8pt squad modifier solo 20 filling the roster Team B: squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier squad[2] 50pts + 1pt squad modifier solo 24 solo 24 solo 20 filling the roster
Yep, this is a case where a squad modifier (that we already have in designs) can make a difference. Even if the unmodified approach guarantees that the sum total difference between the two teams would only be 4/350, so still very efficient.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Soraya Xel
Abandoned Privilege Top Men.
3153
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anarchide, I don't think gear should actually be involved in matchmaking at all. If everyone in the match is using proto, then it might as well be that nobody is. I don't think that's the point. The point needs to be getting matchmaking to a point where someone running proto costs them more than it benefits them, because their opponents can counter them well in skill level.
CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
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Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
310
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
I'm a statistical cow, mu mu
All this matchmaking talk goes over my head, but I'm glad it's being addressed.
++++++++++++
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire
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Regis Blackbird
DUST University Ivy League
375
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote: We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex)
NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss
So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up.
This is a modified version of elo ranking, used in many competitive sports such as chess, major league team sports and esports. Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill.
The underlying problem is that after one match, everyone is very close to 25, and 2 battles, even 10 battles in, only the very best (and worst) have begun to be different from the pack.
That's why it's imperative to find a proxy for Mu for the first battles, which is what comes next in our findings.
It unclear to me if the Mu score (current and future implementation) is calculated over the lifetime of the character or per play session? Perhaps you can clarify?
I.e Will I start with Mu of 25 every time I log-in to Dust (before my first battle of the day?) |
Cass Caul
785
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Posted - 2014.08.20 06:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:CCP Rattati wrote: We actively calculate each players rank based on the result of every match, and we lovingly call that rank "Mu". Before the first battle, the player is given a rank of 25. That rank is updated after the battle, based on the weighted average of the persons duration in the battle and whether he won or lost. Simplified (the calculation is considerably more complex)
NewMu=OldMu+"Player seconds in Battle/Battle Duration" * Win/Loss
So if you lose, your Mu goes down, and if you win, your Mu goes up.
This is a modified version of elo ranking, used in many competitive sports such as chess, major league team sports and esports. Eventually your Mu will converge and stabilize around your "true skill", which is where you will win and lose equally against either players with the same Mu. However, since this is a team game, convergence will happen slower and you may find that even having the best game of your life, will not influence the match enough to secure a win. I will, however, demonstrate that it works very well to predict player skill.
The underlying problem is that after one match, everyone is very close to 25, and 2 battles, even 10 battles in, only the very best (and worst) have begun to be different from the pack.
That's why it's imperative to find a proxy for Mu for the first battles, which is what comes next in our findings.
It unclear to me if the Mu score (current and future implementation) is calculated over the lifetime of the character or per play session? Perhaps you can clarify? I.e Will I start with Mu of 25 every time I log-in to Dust (before my first battle of the day?)
Very interested in this one. As some that's specialized in Scouts since closed beta, I've seen each and every update (be it patch or hotfix) significantly affect the Role's performance. As someone that's had Proficiency V in Sniper Rifles since February '13 I've only seen decline in performance from patch to patch and hotfix to hotfix.
[redacted tangential story] IMO Each major Update (patch or hotfix) should reset the value because the nature of the battle fields change so much. Resetting at any earlier point looks like it would take too long to make a difference.
I blame her for nova knife kills on tanks
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SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion Final Resolution.
1006
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote: Very interested in this one. As some that's specialized in Scouts since closed beta, I've seen each and every update (be it patch or hotfix) significantly affect the Role's performance. As someone that's had Proficiency V in Sniper Rifles since February '13 I've only seen decline in performance from patch to patch and hotfix to hotfix.
I think a rolling window and decay function for rating would solve this issue:
1. If you don't play for a while, your rating will decay down to a low-but-not-zero level. This means that if you go away for 6 months, you won't come back and immediately get face punched while your skills are rusty. 2. Your rating only counts the most recent 6 months of battles, so 2-year-old players will change rating just as quickly as 6-month old characters if something radically changes.
Dust/Eve transfers
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
514
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Posted - 2014.08.20 07:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:SponkSponkSponk wrote:Even a squad of six randoms will consistently beat six unsquadded randoms.
I strongly believe that squad members should get additional mu, that grows more as the squad size grows (i.e. more than linearly) The algorithm we are testing is ==== All squads and solo players are transformed into units Each unit in the 32 man pool is designated with a rank, I am proposing sum of WP/s to be absolutely sure that the biggest squads with the best players are 100% not on the same side. Top rank unit gets placed randomly on Team A or B. Team A in this case. Units are then placed on Team B until sum of Team B exceeds sum of Team A. Now, Units are added to Team A and switched, and so forth until all units are assigned. We may have to increase the pool to 32+ to accommodate differing sizes of squads so we have "filler" solo players to create the 16 v 16 team. Those unfortunate enough to not get added to a team would be pushed back into the queue for the next matchmaking attempt. ==== This algorithm should always get the two best units on either team. It will also always pitch the second best unit and the third best unit against the top unit. If a solo players rank actually exceeds a squads rank, he will be placed above that squad (up to the extent that the top rank is around a 100, which equates to a squad of 6 players with a rank of 14). If top ranked players try to game the system and not join as a squad, they will still end up on opposing teams.
What happens when one units value is so high that it cannot be exceeded by the remaining units? Is it one unit vs all others?
Is it possible for a unit to be unable to be placed into a match because the unit somehow keeps ending up last in line or always at the bottom of the pool? If units are selected randomly, isn't that a possibility? |
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