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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4262	Posted - 2014.08.19 16:01:00 - [31] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: You lost a grand total of 72 damage at the proto level. Cry me a river. While I disagree with the OP, I have to point out that swarms were nerfed over and over again. Swarms could also kill anything in a single magazine with no proficiency. They were insanely op. The Nerf they got in 1.7 was justified. What was not justified was the vehicle buff that came with it. They overdid it. It now takes an entire clip of max proficiency proto swarms to kill an unmodified LAV. Further, if the target is moving (most do) you have be within Fine Rifle range to have any chance of landing those 3 volleys. H0riz0n Unlimit wrote: But no one talks about how OP they are, they can follow you everywhere escaping buildings The dumbest of pilots can outsmart the swarms' tracking system. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3862	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:09:00 - [32] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 1 is what i see very often, 3 is right and frankly doesnt take much these days to make it next to useless or kill it since it cant defend itself anymore 5 equip a sidearm and you can fire off a 3 rounds in 4seconds and to a tank you wont outrun any swarms only ADS has a chance Getting off 3 volleys isn't the problem. The problem is how close we have to get to deliver 3 volleys. Where there's a vehicle there are also infantry. Always. A swarmer near infantry has extremely low odds of survival. Our reward? We might clear the airspace or scare away a tank for a few seconds; we might earn +75WP. More often then not, we will die. High Risk. Low Reward. Let's contrast the above with an HAV or ADS, which can literally sit in or over an enemy position and farm until someone respawns with AV. When hit, the HAV or ADS might leave; if it chooses to do so, it is fully repaired within seconds. High Reward. Low Risk. You cannot argue that Risk and Reward are balanced in either of the above scenarios. I dont see swarms getting close, they generally wait on top of something or next to a depot ADS is an apple, HAV is an orange So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit?
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 7315	Posted - 2014.08.19 17:30:00 - [33] - Quote I'm going to agree with Taka on this one. In this thread I'm basically seeing that people want to use a Swarm Launcher as a Low Risk High reward weapon. Fact is, that's not good for balance. Swarms are good to keep LAVs away, they are good at keeping Dropships away and they are good at being annoying to HAVs. You don't see Plasma Cannon guys going around crying that they can't lock onto vehicles and not have to worry about aiming when it comes to vehicles. You've got a 200 meter lock range, 400 effective range. Maybe they should come out with different Missiles types to help ease this situation. High Speed Missile Swarms: Longer Range, More Effective Range, Low Guidance, High Speed, Lower Damage. Direct Penetration type Missiles: Same ranges as now, high guidance, low speed, same damage. Idk, something like that. Really I just wanted to say that a low skill, low risk weapon should never weild high gains, ever. And no, switching to a supply depot when you see a vehicle then firing when the gun says it's ok is not skill Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4272	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:38:00 - [34] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: I'm going to agree with Taka on this one. In this thread I'm basically seeing that people want to use a Swarm Launcher as a Low Risk High reward weapon. Fact is, that's not good for balance. Swarms are good to keep LAVs away, they are good at keeping Dropships away and they are good at being annoying to HAVs. You don't see Plasma Cannon guys going around crying that they can't lock onto vehicles and not have to worry about aiming when it comes to vehicles. You've got a 200 meter lock range, 400 effective range. Maybe they should come out with different Missiles types to help ease this situation. High Speed Missile Swarms: Longer Range, More Effective Range, Low Guidance, High Speed, Lower Damage. Direct Penetration type Missiles: Same ranges as now, high guidance, low speed, same damage. Idk, something like that. Really I just wanted to say that a low skill, low risk weapon should never weild high gains, ever. And no, switching to a supply depot when you see a vehicle then firing when the gun says it's ok is not skill You're way off. If Swarms were Low Risk / High Reward they would be imbalanced. No one wants that. No one has asked for that. Swarms are currently extremely High Risk / Low Reward. This is also imbalanced. High Risk / Low Reward isn't OK. There is a problem here that needs to be fixed. I don't claim to have the only solution, but increasing Swarm Range would help. Doing nothing certainly doesn't help, nor do unattainable suggestions. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4272	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:44:00 - [35] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit? Don't put words my mouth. My goal is to see Risk and Reward brought into balance. What is your goal? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 3866	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:46:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit? Don't put words my mouth. My goal is to see Risk and Reward brought into balance. What is your goal? LOL. We all know tankahiro's goal. It's called Uprising 1.7. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
emtbraincase Savage Bullet 199	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:55:00 - [37] - Quote solve everyone's problems and just increase the speed the missiles travel (hell even make it a proficiency slot or something). Either way, the faster they get there, the less risk of failed shot, while increasing the chance of hitting the target. Doesn't do any more damage than before, So the ADS isn't in more danger initially, but when they get locked, they have to consider leaving then instead of waiting for that second volley. Now please explain to why this doesn'/won't work. EDIT: speed would be faster than an ADS pilot at top speed with an Afterburner. So you can't keep playing Elevator anymore.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4273	Posted - 2014.08.19 18:59:00 - [38] - Quote emtbraincase wrote: solve everyone's problems and just increase the speed the missiles travel (hell even make it a proficiency slot or something). Either way, the faster they get there, the less risk of failed shot, while increasing the chance of hitting the target. Doesn't do any more damage than before, So the ADS isn't in more danger initially, but when they get locked, they have to consider leaving then instead of waiting for that second volley. Now please explain to why this doesn'/won't work. EDIT: speed would be faster than an ADS pilot at top speed with an Afterburner. So you can't keep playing Elevator anymore. Would help. Would not be OP. In favor of Faster Swarm Projectiles. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 719	Posted - 2014.08.19 19:16:00 - [39] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: HAV / ADS - High Reward / Low Risk Schwarms - Low Reward / High Risk How to Fix HAV / ADS - Nerf recovery, such that when repelled they remain repelled for longer than a few seconds. Schwarms - Buff range, such that the simple act of repelling might not doom the operator. Simply untrue. ADS: a single loss = ISK negative for 1-2 battles. That alone is high risk, and with the many different ways that you can go down in flames ADS is most definitely not low risk. High reward, yeah because you can utterly dominate if the enemy team fails to provide resistance. This is pretty much a cases of one side not looking at it from the other's viewpoint. I do run Swarms (CBR7) and I don't kill many ADSs, but I do get a ton of WP from forcing them to back off. Alt of Halla Murr.
Atiim Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 11520	Posted - 2014.08.19 20:02:00 - [40] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: And no, switching to a supply depot when you see a vehicle then firing when the gun says it's ok is not skill It's a good thing it isn't skillfull, because that's not how you use a Swarm Launcher. Well, unless you: Are fighting an Abandoned LAV. Are fighting an HAV Pilot who's AFK. Have no intentions of actually destroying or threatening something. Wish to be killed on the spot by any competent Infantry unit with a Fine Rifle Wish to be killed on the spot by any competent Infantry unit with Nova Knives or a Shotgun I wonder if those who say that SLs require no skill have actually used them, and against more than a Blueberry Tanker... DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3876	Posted - 2014.08.19 20:11:00 - [41] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit? Don't put words my mouth. My goal is to see Risk and Reward brought into balance. What is your goal? LOL. We all know tankahiro's goal. It's called Uprising 1.7. While it was nice when we got some revenge for the 6+months of OP AV while infantry said 'its fine gg' it didnt last long enough, still owed about 3 months Simple what i want 1. Racial parity 2. Adv/proto hulls 3. Bring back the variety of mods/turrets and hulls we had 4. Skills with passive bonuses and more of them
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4285	Posted - 2014.08.19 20:34:00 - [42] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: HAV / ADS - High Reward / Low Risk Schwarms - Low Reward / High Risk How to Fix HAV / ADS - Nerf recovery, such that when repelled they remain repelled for longer than a few seconds. Schwarms - Buff range, such that the simple act of repelling might not doom the operator. Simply untrue. ADS: a single loss = ISK negative for 1-2 battles. That alone is high risk, and with the many different ways that you can go down in flames ADS is most definitely not low risk. High reward, yeah because you can utterly dominate if the enemy team fails to provide resistance. This is pretty much a cases of one side not looking at it from the other's viewpoint. I do run Swarms (CBR7) and I don't kill many ADSs, but I do get a ton of WP from forcing them to back off. 1. Farm 2. Get Hit 3. Fly Away Please, help me think of roles with less risk exposure than this. So far I've come up with: * MCC AFK * Redline Sentinel w/Thales Are there many others? If not, then the ADS is by definition Lower Risk than other roles. An item's price does not justify its imbalance. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Roger Cordill The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 416	Posted - 2014.08.19 21:10:00 - [43] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit? Don't put words my mouth. My goal is to see Risk and Reward brought into balance. What is your goal? LOL. We all know tankahiro's goal. It's called Uprising 1.7. While it was nice when we got some revenge for the 6+months of OP AV while infantry said 'its fine gg' it didnt last long enough, still owed about 3 months Simple what i want 1. Racial parity 2. Adv/proto hulls 3. Bring back the variety of mods/turrets and hulls we had 4. Skills with passive bonuses and more of them Why would you want to tier things and make things even worse? Tiercide bitches!!!!!!
Matticus Monk OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2430	Posted - 2014.08.19 21:15:00 - [44] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: While it was nice when we got some revenge for the 6+months of OP AV while infantry said 'its fine gg' it didnt last long enough, still owed about 3 months No one owes you anything scrub. Double posting like a Kaiser. Embracing the death, at Llast.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 3127	Posted - 2014.08.19 21:18:00 - [45] - Quote Matticus Monk wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: While it was nice when we got some revenge for the 6+months of OP AV while infantry said 'its fine gg' it didnt last long enough, still owed about 3 months No one owes you anything. That's the good ol' entitlement for you. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 477	Posted - 2014.08.19 22:56:00 - [46] - Quote Speed of the missiles definitely need an increase so that Python doesn't out race them by simply circle strafing . Seriously guy didn't even bother to straighten up and burn off . Just made this long circle sideways around the base with his nose pointed towards the ground and they bloody still couldn't keep up with him !!! No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1052	Posted - 2014.08.20 01:48:00 - [47] - Quote Swarms are fine for me right now, damage wise. I agree they FEEL less powerful now. My suggestion is to leave them alone for now but keep an eye on if a change in speed or turning radius is in order. Because, that's why.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3876	Posted - 2014.08.20 10:23:00 - [48] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you want swarms to be low risk high reward? do you want vehicles to stop moving when you hit? Don't put words my mouth. My goal is to see Risk and Reward brought into balance. What is your goal? LOL. We all know tankahiro's goal. It's called Uprising 1.7. While it was nice when we got some revenge for the 6+months of OP AV while infantry said 'its fine gg' it didnt last long enough, still owed about 3 months Simple what i want 1. Racial parity 2. Adv/proto hulls 3. Bring back the variety of mods/turrets and hulls we had 4. Skills with passive bonuses and more of them Why would you want to tier things and make things even worse? Tiercide bitches!!!!!! Says tiercide while infantry has proto suits and we have basic hulls
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 679	Posted - 2014.08.20 14:02:00 - [49] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: You lost a grand total of 72 damage at the proto level. Cry me a river. to a weapon that even at proto level with prof lv5 and damage mods struggles to take down an LAV. imagine the forum posts if for say a HMG couldn't kill a scout? be a completely different story Rolling with the punches
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4307	Posted - 2014.08.20 16:46:00 - [50] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Says tiercide while infantry has proto suits and we have basic hulls It is not appropriate to compare units which are vulnerable to everything to units which is vulnerable to very few things. Even with today's two-vehicle quota and improved installations, ADS+ADS or ADS+HAV or HAV+HAV more often than not result in entirely lopsided Ambush matches. How much more imbalanced would these matches be with prototype vehicles? How would you account / adjust for creating new imbalance? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 3884	Posted - 2014.08.20 17:39:00 - [51] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Says tiercide while infantry has proto suits and we have basic hulls It is not appropriate to compare infantry (which can be killed by anything) to vehicles (which can be killed by very few things). Even with today's two-vehicle quota and improved installations, ADS+ADS or ADS+HAV or HAV+HAV more often than not result in entirely lopsided Ambush stompathons. How much more imbalanced would these matches be if prototype vehicles were introduced? Assuming better hulls were introduced, how would you account/adjust for worsening balance in an already imbalanced setting? But it is You have a basic suit but can upgrade, vehicle pilots cannot so we are stuck with what we have which now has less slots,mods,turrets,skills,hulls but thats fair infantry say Thats BS and if proto AV was leveled to be against fully proto vehicles then it balances itself out
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4316	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:22:00 - [52] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Says tiercide while infantry has proto suits and we have basic hulls It is not appropriate to compare infantry (which can be killed by anything) to vehicles (which can be killed by very few things). Even with today's two-vehicle quota and improved installations, ADS+ADS or ADS+HAV or HAV+HAV more often than not result in entirely lopsided Ambush stompathons. How much more imbalanced would these matches be if prototype vehicles were introduced? Assuming better hulls were introduced, how would you account/adjust for worsening balance in an already imbalanced setting? But it is You have a basic suit but can upgrade, vehicle pilots cannot so we are stuck with what we have which now has less slots,mods,turrets,skills,hulls but thats fair infantry say Thats BS and if proto AV was leveled to be against fully proto vehicles then it balances itself out What's BS is your willingness to break the game to get what you want. If we throw balance out the window, there won't be a game left for Pilots stomp. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 68	Posted - 2014.08.20 19:46:00 - [53] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Says tiercide while infantry has proto suits and we have basic hulls It is not appropriate to compare infantry (which can be killed by anything) to vehicles (which can be killed by very few things). Even with today's two-vehicle quota and improved installations, ADS+ADS or ADS+HAV or HAV+HAV more often than not result in entirely lopsided Ambush stompathons. How much more imbalanced would these matches be if prototype vehicles were introduced? Assuming better hulls were introduced, how would you account/adjust for worsening balance in an already imbalanced setting? But it is You have a basic suit but can upgrade, vehicle pilots cannot so we are stuck with what we have which now has less slots,mods,turrets,skills,hulls but thats fair infantry say Thats BS and if proto AV was leveled to be against fully proto vehicles then it balances itself out What's BS here is your unmitigated willingness to break the game to get what you want. If we throw balance out the window, there won't be a game left for Pilots to ROFL stomp. I think you might have missed what he's suggesting. Not buffs for vehicles, but rather newer vehicles on the DUST progression scale to more easily balance things. It would result in the "PRO" HAVs being at about the same level as the current Standard HAVs are (or slightly better, but most importantly having a wider array of options) and then balancing the lower tier ones to where it takes the same amount of time and effort to destroy them with anti-vehicle equipment of their same tier (for instance a Standard swarm launcher should be just as effective against a standard hull as a prototype launcher would be against a prototype hull.) Now personally I'm fine with the current vehicle prpgression (of militia, tech 1 and tech 2) provides they add the rest of the tech 2 vehicles back in (of course they need changed from the state they where in when they where removed) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 128	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:02:00 - [54] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Only proto got nerfed last I checked, but it also got more ammo? And the std and advance straight up got buffed, to make them viable, hence the nerf at pro. I don't see how you can turn all that into a nerf of the entire weapon class. I am Proto and it's lost it's umph...so more kick. But I got an extra slot for an 4 complex mods but still miss the feeling of power behind it. Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 128	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:04:00 - [55] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: You lost a grand total of 72 damage at the proto level. Cry me a river. It's not the 72 hp.....it's all about the experience of shooting it. It's lost that lovin feelin Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 68	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:06:00 - [56] - Quote Her Nibs wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: You lost a grand total of 72 damage at the proto level. Cry me a river. It's not the 72 hp.....it's all about the experience of shooting it. It's lost that lovin feelin My swarm minmando buddy feels the same way...but hey, the missile swarm seems to track targets better, and looses fewer missiles to the ground Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 128	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:08:00 - [57] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: Her Nibs wrote: I feel like I am a noob with my very first swarms, That's how you're supposed to feel with such an easymode weapon... Working as intended. Obviously Derp you have never used a swarm.....estimated release time after lock on, angleing the launcher to go over hills, and around corners. For me it's all about the hunt for moving red objects and the feeling when you release. My swarms are badass but they have taken away the feeling of power behind the release Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 129	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:10:00 - [58] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Derpty Derp wrote: Her Nibs wrote: I feel like I am a noob with my very first swarms, That's how you're supposed to feel with such an easymode weapon... Working as intended. Nothing easy about not dying while trying to catch a target traveling at many times your top speed. Nothing easy about getting three volleys onto a target before it zips off well out-of-range. Nothing easy about syncing strikes with allied AV (absolutely required if intent is to destroy). Nothing easy about staying alive before, during and after firing swarms. Easymode Weaponry, you say? * Farm Infantry * Take Damage * Hit Afterburners ^ Please explain. How is this difficult? What Nibs is saying is that Swarms now "feel weak" (i.e. perception / sight / sound) when a volley is released; the fact that Swarms are in fact weak doesn't help the new feel. THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING TL;DR -- Swarms are bad. Now Swarms feel bad. - Proficiency 5 Swarms Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 129	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:12:00 - [59] - Quote lee corwood wrote: Proficiency 2. Commando. 2 Damage Mods. Killed 3 vehicles just yesterday. Assisted many others forging. Not disappointed. Fail to see the issue. SWARMS - GOOD FEELING BEHIND SWARMS - BAD Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.
Her Nibs New Age Empire. General Tso's Alliance 129	Posted - 2014.08.20 20:13:00 - [60] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Cody Sietz wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: You lost a grand total of 72 damage at the proto level. Cry me a river. While I disagree with the OP, I have to point out that swarms were nerfed over and over again. Swarms could also kill anything in a single magazine with no proficiency. They were insanely op. The Nerf they got in 1.7 was justified. What was not justified was the vehicle buff that came with it. U R NOT LISTENING....... my swarms are terrific except for the lack of feeling when released Shoot me or run me over, it becomes personnal.



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