Take your current trees.

And turn them into the certificate system; lace with prizes for completing certification levels and make it more of the default view.

Then arrange an eve/dust 514 tree in viewing mode that is not only arranged but is the real nuts and bolts behind the certificate tree for those who know better and are used to the idea of mixing and matching.

There; Preserve one work, keep systems familiar and help new players out without alienating the old players too much.

Prizes should include vanity to show off you're certified, free untradable samples of gear you just leveled up or just qualified for and maybe medals or something.

Where is the skill tree outline he has laid down.

While I am wholly against BPO dropsuits I am certainly hoping to provide some adequate feed back on the issue.

Personally I feel his simplified Skill tree is disastrous, if anything the skill tree needs to be more indepth and more integral to our characters development in all things, much akin to EVE's skill trees.

In all honesty a super character under CCP Z's proposal vs anything eve like are identical even the time to destination will be identical. Just CCP Z's route has roadsigns and roads built but leaves players to pick the destinations. Where as the eve system is a barren desert with no distinguishable landmarks to the untrained eye and many new players dehydrate before the find thier first watering hole.

You can have a exceptionally deep game with very simple concepts though. In all honesty a super character under CCP Z's proposal vs anything eve like are identical even the time to destination will be identical. Just CCP Z's route has roadsigns and roads built but leaves players to pick the destinations. Where as the eve system is a barren desert with no distinguishable landmarks to the untrained eye and many new players dehydrate before the find thier first watering hole.

I don't think this even the problem with Z's idea.

Let's start by looking at the positives of Z's orginal idea.

1. Choosing your faction after choosing your frame variation.
To me personally this is the system's biggest positive. If we are going to give players such a wide of choice of roles weapons, modules and equipment to play with, it makes a lot of sense to let players acclimatise to the frames limitations, pros, cons a d unique points before the limitations and unique points of the factions get involved.

You can make a much more informed choice going from CONCORD/non-descript Assault Frame to Factional Assault Frame, then jumping straight in at the Factional Level. It also makes sense lore wise because there are going to operational similarities that would allow an Assault Frame user to adjust to a new faction suit then say someone who operates a sentinel suit.

2. Adding an extra level of depth AFTER Factional Frames
I don't need to go into this too much, but it's perfect. It makes your players feel like they are really something.

3. Replacing 5lvl nodes with 1lvl nodes where applicable.
Once again this is a fantastic idea, not every node needs to be 5lvls, do I really need to train 5 different levels to use 1 suit? With the introduction of tiercide, there simply no need.

4. Structured progression

The idea of having a skill tree that makes it easier to choose and specialise into a role, should be a no brainer. How Z is achieving it, however, is not the best.

It's important we don't overlook these points when asking Z to reconsider his current design.

I don't think this even the problem with Z's idea.

Let's start by looking at the positives of Z's orginal idea.

1. Choosing your faction after choosing your frame variation.
To me personally this is the system's biggest positive. If we are going to give players such a wide of choice of roles weapons, modules and equipment to play with, it makes a lot of sense to let players acclimatise to the frames limitations, pros, cons a d unique points before the limitations and unique points of the factions get involved.

You can make a much more informed choice going from CONCORD/non-descript Assault Frame to Factional Assault Frame, then jumping straight in at the Factional Level. It also makes sense lore wise because there are going to operational similarities that would allow an Assault Frame user to adjust to a new faction suit then say someone who operates a sentinel suit.

2. Adding an extra level of depth AFTER Factional Frames
I don't need to go into this too much, but it's perfect. It makes your players feel like they are really something.

3. Replacing 5lvl nodes with 1lvl nodes where applicable.
Once again this is a fantastic idea, not every node needs to be 5lvls, do I really need to train 5 different levels to use 1 suit? With the introduction of tiercide, there simply no need.

4. Structured progression

The idea of having a skill tree that makes it easier to choose and specialise into a role, should be a no brainer. How Z is achieving it, however, is not the best.

It's important we don't overlook these points when asking Z to reconsider his current design.

Speaking of CCP Z, do you know when we might hear from him again? I'm sure he is busy, but I would love to see the latest progression of the skill tree

Still could we provide a link in the OP for information on his proposed skill system, I currently don't know where to look for it.

So what you're saying is, the same FF vid that we've dissected to the nth degree in the progression sticky.

Like I said though I had context behind it and only one or two more screens viewed to me. Information you guys got is the same one I got behind closed doors.

I will not divulge CCP Z's first plan though; that would do more harm than good.

https://twitter.com/ccp_z/status/479953748681162752

He's also hoping to post a pic of the new Market Screen soon if you follow the twitter convo.

Point 3 is variable number of nodes only as necessary. Some may have 2 some may have 1 some may have 5 still

Like I said though I had context behind it and only one or two more screens viewed to me. Information you guys got is the same one I got behind closed doors.

I will not divulge CCP Z's first plan though; that would do more harm than good.

He is not going to listen IWS. Hubris is bliss at CCPs offices.

WoW influences are more important than the core values of New Eden.

Kthxbai.

Hi; let me tell you by how wrong you are.

The idea he presents to you all is version 2.0, which if the CPM didn't so tear apart the first idea would have likely never existed.

Go back into your corner.

I'll jump in the middle of this. I think spectral's point is that what we're seeing is V2. IF the original plan was as bad as you suggest, then V1 was even more removed from the core principles of New Eden. While it is reassuring that the concept has evolved, the question still must be asked: what understanding is there of New Eden for progression to have started where it did, to end up here where it is only after CPM intervention? I think it's a reasonable assumption then to relate it to WoW, in that WoW has been commercially successful. Assuming that a fundamental understanding of what New Eden is was not the bar to which these conceptual decisions were measured, then it was not the heart of New Eden, but rather the commercial potential of simplifying things that was the deciding factor. While it may not be exactly Warcraft, from the perspective way down here it looks to be more Warcraft than not. For sure not New Eden.

With all that said, hell, wtf do we down here know? We're still looking for more of a road map or what the concept it/was/will be just to try to offer conversation on the topic. I thought that was the point of the sticky up top, that at the moment is just collecting dust---no pun intended.

Again, not trying to rustle feathers. Just hopefully clarifying. I could be wrong there too, so eh. lol. =\

All the best,

- me.

Well the thing is CCP Z is new to new eden overall so its taking time to coach him up and get him up to speed on the entire how the universe works. CCP Z is also one of those formerly black box devs to its been a careful dance on trying to get him out to the public or talking with the cpm and trying to make it a positive experience instead of something he rather run away from. So getting to talk to him directly has been becomming difficult because of not only this but the simple fact he is freakishly busy trying to get one of the major features needed for the project completed.

CCP Z does have principles and goals; to which I will say are needed; to make the game a bit more accessible to outsiders of new eden and a bit more approachable for the 15 minutes of glory Dust 514 normally engages in moment to moment (where as eve its 99% boredom and 1% sheer absolute terror)

Its the method you, me and we as a community are having problems with.and by that I know he is willing and able to change things around to keep on track to what is needed. If we, as a community, can get CCP Ratatti to open up more it would be great step forward but I did not appreciate some of the folks setting that back with their emotions out of check.

If you folks are reducing EVE to the battle parts, then we-¦re gonna have a bad time.

I LOVE the adrenaline of fighting, but i respect that the ship, modules, rigs and ammo that i use were mined, manufactured and sold by someone(s).

EVE is not 99% boredom to those people, they enjoy the game in a whole different way, a way that COULD be implemented on Legion and bring a public that like games such as Civilization / Masters of Orion / Starcraft / X-Com (the old one) and they would have a TON of fun while the game progresses, all at the same time that people are shooting each other on the face (hopefully, with balanced equip/stats learned from Dust).

Again i have no beef with the person behind CCP Z, but the development ideas showed so far are terrifying in the sense that:

- It doesn-¦t respect internal consistency of the New Eden franchise. If you-¦re new to a different culture, learn it and make some translations before trying to impose your own language.

- His "reluctancy" to talk to people who can provide good feedback (If CPM can-¦t talk to him properly, imagine a the proper forum feedback among a horde of trolls) may indicate a "Solitary Magic Solution" that we know is not very effective these days, or worst, a "Fack it, i-¦m doing my way cause i have a blank check"

- If version 2.0 is a fs far from new eden reality as it appears to be, i don-¦t even want to know what 1.0 was. My inner thinking still goes to "Need For Speed World" (that i played for a few months to be fair)

I know he has his job and have no obligation to talk or give any sort of satisfaction to players, but having "hurt feelings i-¦ll hide in my shell" is not productive, simple as that. Want to have an honest discussion of general ideas on a public space, or want to make videos showing his views and later analyzing feedback on comments? GREAT!

But if you can-¦t take the heat, either HTFU (Turn captions On) or stop teasing us into thinking we can contribute with things and do your own stuff, present the finished product to the public, and don-¦t complain when reviews come up.

Even with all the things that were said, i still don-¦t know the "Idea" of the game.

From what i got so far, we-¦ll have a resource collection game with player conflict mediated by some sort of trade betwwen players, similar to DayZ, The Forest, Silkroad and competition modes where people shoot each other in the face in "arena" like places.

There are games that do these things already, where is the "uniqueness" of Legion? By that i don-¦t mean doing something that has never been tried before, but simply arranging things in a way that make THIS game something to be played instead of THAT game.

Pointing that doing stuff without communicating with others properly (by that i mean CPM) is a bad bad bad sign, is not an emotional rant.

Well the thing is CCP Z is new to new eden overall so its taking time to coach him up and get him up to speed on the entire how the universe works. CCP Z is also one of those formerly black box devs to its been a careful dance on trying to get him out to the public or talking with the cpm and trying to make it a positive experience instead of something he rather run away from. So getting to talk to him directly has been becomming difficult because of not only this but the simple fact he is freakishly busy trying to get one of the major features needed for the project completed.

CCP Z does have principles and goals; to which I will say are needed; to make the game a bit more accessible to outsiders of new eden and a bit more approachable for the 15 minutes of glory Dust 514 normally engages in moment to moment (where as eve its 99% boredom and 1% sheer absolute terror)

Its the method you, me and we as a community are having problems with.and by that I know he is willing and able to change things around to keep on track to what is needed. If we, as a community, can get CCP Ratatti to open up more it would be great step forward but I did not appreciate some of the folks setting that back with their emotions out of check.

I still like to see what his progress is so far on the proposed skill progression system he came up with and if any changes have been made since he first brought it up.

I just like to reiterate what the vocal players have previously stated to CCP Z. We don't want to be forced into training up certain suits we don't like just to access a weapon for a suit we do like. If the progression has changed in any way that gets away from that system, then I will be a happy clam. If not, bummer. But either way, we all like to know. Showing the ENTIRE skill progression system will go a long way in clearing up any confusion.

At the same time I have to recognize that he is a busy man. If he has more important things to deal with in order to get Legion up and running, then that's ok. I just hope he remembers to come back to us before Legion is greenlit.

Right; Market is a Legion launch feature; progression can get nuked, we did it in dust 514 so its entirely feasible to do it again. Market on the other hand cannot really be done in such manner.

For the feedback that is why I suggested the certificate tree instead. This way new players can stick to the tree and unlock the things along a career path laced with rewards and achievements/medals learning how races tick how things work together and inadvertently learn about the skill tree to one day they can skip the cert tree and train straight from the skill tree instead once they don't need the game to hold their hands anymore.

Now this conversation can break down into smaller pieces if needed.

Item progression focusing on how the players get from one item to the next

and certificate/skill tree arrangement.

Lets be honest IWS I was going down the CCP set certificates paths until a more veteran player suggested I scrap all that they told me to think I thought I knew.......

Veteran Players are not New Players. They don't suffer from hopelessness of being absolutely confused by a game that has proven to be a bigger enemy than the actual enemies.

This is true. But even veteran players had to start somewhere. We were completely confused over 2 years ago when we started in closed beta. But the system was different back then and things evolved over time as we adapted to those changes.

New players on the other hand don't have the luxury of such experience. They don't understand how everything got to where it is and why this or that is happening. This is what NPE is for and the certificate system (or ISIS as an alternative) is an important first step in helping those New Players to at least survive the first week of gameplay while they learn to get a handle of things. Some players can catch on without any help but not all players are like that. Some players just need a sign to point them in the general direction to get started and the rest they can handle by themselves.

Off topic (sort of): I got a clearance rack copy of Crysis 3 over at Kmart last weekend. Started up the campaign and first option up was to go through the training simulator or not. I did as it's been a while since I played Crysis. Yeah, I'm lagging behind the world. Whatever.

I learned how to:
- Walk from point A to B
- Crouch
- Jump
- Power Jump
- Power Jump + Grapple Climb
- Run
- Power Slide
- Toggle Armor
- Toggle Stealth Mode
- Stealth Attack
- Aim and Fire
- ADS and Fire
- Manually switch from single-fire to automatic
- Manually access in-game sub-screen to apply silencer
- Toggle Primary/Secondary Weapon
- Reload
- Throw Grenade (with targeting trajectory!)
- Notified that grenades cook for 4 seconds before I killed myself
- Restock Ammo from Supply Crates
- Toggle Visor
- Access Visor Hack
- Toggle Nano-Vision (infrared style)

...all within a very minimally staged walking path that only appeared upon completion of the requested task at hand. Oh, and there was this sexy AURA type voice coaching me along to boot. At the end of the less than 10-minute run-through, I was able to play a very generic stage with a few walls to climb, a single turret to either hack or destroy, and about 5 reds to kill one way or another. Oh. I could see my feet too ;)

Then I started the game proper.

That's neither here nor there. Maybe. or... hm...

- me.

Reducing Dust to the skill tree part will also going to have a bad time as well. The whole 99% boredom comment is a common saying by those in the military to which Eve follows down to a very hard line directly. It is a concept you already understand though so no need to further beat on it. You fully understand that the 99% boredom is in preparation for that 1% sheer absolute terrifying moment.
As for the Skill Tree.

-Your first point lacks examples please iterate MUCH deeper than this.

-More like he's scared in a corner. It didn't help people threw rotten tomatoes at him on the first day. Not everyone is a Ratti being awesome on day one of doing the whole communication loop.

-Version 2.0 believe it or not is still more closely aligned with new eden than most people dare imagined. Case in point there is still nothing stopping an idiot making a shield tanked amarrian heavy using anti infantry caldari weaponry and scout modules against matari vehicles.

-It is also the community's responsibility to mature and respectful to the developers; I poured through some of the feedback and most of the crap I read was not feed back; most of it was attacks against the developer himself and not even constructively going against the idea either.

As for the salvage game mode CCP Wolfman is looking for feedback specifically on how that will play out, CCP Z is not responsible for game modes; nor is this economic model to launch with is his idea in entirety as well. Right now the reason why CCP Z is likely not talking anything about progression is that it is a system that can get trashed easily over and over again. The system he is currently working on is something that needs its backbone done first, secondary market. You have to remember CCP Z's primary task is the economy. Progression is a deep part of it, as a player grows so does their taste in products.

Also if you want to avoid emotional ranting avoid thinking works and emotional envokers. The whole HTFU thing was oxymoronic enough.

-Your first point lacks examples please iterate MUCH deeper than this.

This is true. But even veteran players had to start somewhere. We were completely confused over 2 years ago when we started in closed beta. But the system was different back then and things evolved over time as we adapted to those changes.

New players on the other hand don't have the luxury of such experience. They don't understand how everything got to where it is and why this or that is happening. This is what NPE is for and the certificate system (or ISIS as an alternative) is an important first step in helping those New Players to at least survive the first week of gameplay while they learn to get a handle of things. Some players can catch on without any help but not all players are like that. Some players just need a sign to point them in the general direction to get started and the rest they can handle by themselves.

This is something that I can relate to so I'll take shot at it.

"BPO" suits. Through my time in EVE and interacting with its itemization, I've come to understand my character - the "I" - as something that is fundamentally distinct from whatever items "I" happen to use when interacting with this universe. The "I" is a combination of my ingame persona/behavior and my choices regarding his skills that define what he can and can't do or use.

Any frame, vehicle or ship is just another piece of gear that "I" may or may not use at any given time. It is merely a result of my characters immediate decisions and in no way constitutes a permanent or temporary representation of my character, the "I". It's just a thing, a tool. Not just from the point of me, the player interacting with the game, but also for my character interacting with the universe inside of the game.

What I know about CCP Zs system so far seems to dilute this distinction to attract players that are used to having characters that are primarily described by the sum of their class and their gear. To those players, while not necessarily permanent, their characters' gear is just as, if not more important a representation of their ingame character than anything else. WIthin such a system "I" am no longer Malkai Inos, a merc that specializes in logistics and usually uses a Cal logi suit to support the team but also has a cheap Assault fit. Within such a system "I" am a Logi, named Malkai Inos and if I, as a player, switch to an assault suit then "I" suddenly become an Assault named Malkai Inos.

I can totally understand why CCP Z thinks this model will attract more players that are unfamiliar with New Eden and allow them to easier identify with who they represent ingame, their "I". And he is probably right if this is his target audience.

But to me. It greatly compromises my ingame identity by reducing my character to a class; that is defined by a suit; that is defined by a value in the skill tree. My character is no longer a distinct entity but a role.

And lastly: I'm constantly asking myself: Who pays for and builds this complex high tech exoskeleton just to hand to me so I can be a logi? Why is everything on my suit forever gone once I die but the contraption holding all these items is permanent and inexhaustible?

That was way longer than I expected so here comes the rest as condensed as possible:


Soft-locking progression: Basically your OP. I agree that new players need more guidance in the skilltree and like the certificate idea. But every bought skill should be a choice, rather than a designation. The final decision must be with the user and he must not be impeded by making certain decisions harder to make just because they don't fit in with some pre-defined "role"


Respecs: As explained in the suit part above my skill set up is is one of the two core foundations of who my character is. The ability to change my skills after the fact is equal to changing my in-game "I" on a whim. Only a persistent tree enables a persistent identity of a character as I see it.

A progression system that that is designed with a re-specialisation feature in mind is thus incompatible with New Eden especially when compared to the EVE tree which, while punishing if used without required knowledge or guidance, is a paramount example of a persistent skill tree that remains fair.
I can elaborate on further reasons on why a persistent progression is needed in New Eden which include balance, economy and overall gemplay if asked, but i'll restrain myself to the "consistent with New Eden" part.

That's it for now.

This is an AWESOME NPE.

Theory, practice, rewards, and social bonding.

That's some old ****, and I still love it. Was talking to IWS while he was making it, and I realized that I made a although unpolished version, basically the same thing (he got the Vince thing from me :D). That is a Good ******* tutorial, and IWS did a good job making it,

I loved the drawings!
Was this meant for Dust ? WHYYYYYY didn-¦t they implement it?