Take your current trees.

And turn them into the certificate system; lace with prizes for completing certification levels and make it more of the default view.

Then arrange an eve/dust 514 tree in viewing mode that is not only arranged but is the real nuts and bolts behind the certificate tree for those who know better and are used to the idea of mixing and matching.

There; Preserve one work, keep systems familiar and help new players out without alienating the old players too much.

Prizes should include vanity to show off you're certified, free untradable samples of gear you just leveled up or just qualified for and maybe medals or something.

Where is the skill tree outline he has laid down.

While I am wholly against BPO dropsuits I am certainly hoping to provide some adequate feed back on the issue.

Personally I feel his simplified Skill tree is disastrous, if anything the skill tree needs to be more indepth and more integral to our characters development in all things, much akin to EVE's skill trees.

In all honesty a super character under CCP Z's proposal vs anything eve like are identical even the time to destination will be identical. Just CCP Z's route has roadsigns and roads built but leaves players to pick the destinations. Where as the eve system is a barren desert with no distinguishable landmarks to the untrained eye and many new players dehydrate before the find thier first watering hole.

You can have a exceptionally deep game with very simple concepts though. In all honesty a super character under CCP Z's proposal vs anything eve like are identical even the time to destination will be identical. Just CCP Z's route has roadsigns and roads built but leaves players to pick the destinations. Where as the eve system is a barren desert with no distinguishable landmarks to the untrained eye and many new players dehydrate before the find thier first watering hole.

I don't think this even the problem with Z's idea.

Let's start by looking at the positives of Z's orginal idea.

1. Choosing your faction after choosing your frame variation.
To me personally this is the system's biggest positive. If we are going to give players such a wide of choice of roles weapons, modules and equipment to play with, it makes a lot of sense to let players acclimatise to the frames limitations, pros, cons a d unique points before the limitations and unique points of the factions get involved.

You can make a much more informed choice going from CONCORD/non-descript Assault Frame to Factional Assault Frame, then jumping straight in at the Factional Level. It also makes sense lore wise because there are going to operational similarities that would allow an Assault Frame user to adjust to a new faction suit then say someone who operates a sentinel suit.

2. Adding an extra level of depth AFTER Factional Frames
I don't need to go into this too much, but it's perfect. It makes your players feel like they are really something.

3. Replacing 5lvl nodes with 1lvl nodes where applicable.
Once again this is a fantastic idea, not every node needs to be 5lvls, do I really need to train 5 different levels to use 1 suit? With the introduction of tiercide, there simply no need.

4. Structured progression

The idea of having a skill tree that makes it easier to choose and specialise into a role, should be a no brainer. How Z is achieving it, however, is not the best.

It's important we don't overlook these points when asking Z to reconsider his current design.

I don't think this even the problem with Z's idea.

Let's start by looking at the positives of Z's orginal idea.

1. Choosing your faction after choosing your frame variation.
To me personally this is the system's biggest positive. If we are going to give players such a wide of choice of roles weapons, modules and equipment to play with, it makes a lot of sense to let players acclimatise to the frames limitations, pros, cons a d unique points before the limitations and unique points of the factions get involved.

You can make a much more informed choice going from CONCORD/non-descript Assault Frame to Factional Assault Frame, then jumping straight in at the Factional Level. It also makes sense lore wise because there are going to operational similarities that would allow an Assault Frame user to adjust to a new faction suit then say someone who operates a sentinel suit.

2. Adding an extra level of depth AFTER Factional Frames
I don't need to go into this too much, but it's perfect. It makes your players feel like they are really something.

3. Replacing 5lvl nodes with 1lvl nodes where applicable.
Once again this is a fantastic idea, not every node needs to be 5lvls, do I really need to train 5 different levels to use 1 suit? With the introduction of tiercide, there simply no need.

4. Structured progression

The idea of having a skill tree that makes it easier to choose and specialise into a role, should be a no brainer. How Z is achieving it, however, is not the best.

It's important we don't overlook these points when asking Z to reconsider his current design.

Speaking of CCP Z, do you know when we might hear from him again? I'm sure he is busy, but I would love to see the latest progression of the skill tree

Still could we provide a link in the OP for information on his proposed skill system, I currently don't know where to look for it.

So what you're saying is, the same FF vid that we've dissected to the nth degree in the progression sticky.

Like I said though I had context behind it and only one or two more screens viewed to me. Information you guys got is the same one I got behind closed doors.

I will not divulge CCP Z's first plan though; that would do more harm than good.

https://twitter.com/ccp_z/status/479953748681162752

He's also hoping to post a pic of the new Market Screen soon if you follow the twitter convo.

Point 3 is variable number of nodes only as necessary. Some may have 2 some may have 1 some may have 5 still

Like I said though I had context behind it and only one or two more screens viewed to me. Information you guys got is the same one I got behind closed doors.

I will not divulge CCP Z's first plan though; that would do more harm than good.

He is not going to listen IWS. Hubris is bliss at CCPs offices.

WoW influences are more important than the core values of New Eden.

Kthxbai.

Hi; let me tell you by how wrong you are.

The idea he presents to you all is version 2.0, which if the CPM didn't so tear apart the first idea would have likely never existed.

Go back into your corner.

I'll jump in the middle of this. I think spectral's point is that what we're seeing is V2. IF the original plan was as bad as you suggest, then V1 was even more removed from the core principles of New Eden. While it is reassuring that the concept has evolved, the question still must be asked: what understanding is there of New Eden for progression to have started where it did, to end up here where it is only after CPM intervention? I think it's a reasonable assumption then to relate it to WoW, in that WoW has been commercially successful. Assuming that a fundamental understanding of what New Eden is was not the bar to which these conceptual decisions were measured, then it was not the heart of New Eden, but rather the commercial potential of simplifying things that was the deciding factor. While it may not be exactly Warcraft, from the perspective way down here it looks to be more Warcraft than not. For sure not New Eden.

With all that said, hell, wtf do we down here know? We're still looking for more of a road map or what the concept it/was/will be just to try to offer conversation on the topic. I thought that was the point of the sticky up top, that at the moment is just collecting dust---no pun intended.

Again, not trying to rustle feathers. Just hopefully clarifying. I could be wrong there too, so eh. lol. =\

All the best,

- me.

Well the thing is CCP Z is new to new eden overall so its taking time to coach him up and get him up to speed on the entire how the universe works. CCP Z is also one of those formerly black box devs to its been a careful dance on trying to get him out to the public or talking with the cpm and trying to make it a positive experience instead of something he rather run away from. So getting to talk to him directly has been becomming difficult because of not only this but the simple fact he is freakishly busy trying to get one of the major features needed for the project completed.

CCP Z does have principles and goals; to which I will say are needed; to make the game a bit more accessible to outsiders of new eden and a bit more approachable for the 15 minutes of glory Dust 514 normally engages in moment to moment (where as eve its 99% boredom and 1% sheer absolute terror)

Its the method you, me and we as a community are having problems with.and by that I know he is willing and able to change things around to keep on track to what is needed. If we, as a community, can get CCP Ratatti to open up more it would be great step forward but I did not appreciate some of the folks setting that back with their emotions out of check.

If you folks are reducing EVE to the battle parts, then we-¦re gonna have a bad time.

I LOVE the adrenaline of fighting, but i respect that the ship, modules, rigs and ammo that i use were mined, manufactured and sold by someone(s).

EVE is not 99% boredom to those people, they enjoy the game in a whole different way, a way that COULD be implemented on Legion and bring a public that like games such as Civilization / Masters of Orion / Starcraft / X-Com (the old one) and they would have a TON of fun while the game progresses, all at the same time that people are shooting each other on the face (hopefully, with balanced equip/stats learned from Dust).

Again i have no beef with the person behind CCP Z, but the development ideas showed so far are terrifying in the sense that:

- It doesn-¦t respect internal consistency of the New Eden franchise. If you-¦re new to a different culture, learn it and make some translations before trying to impose your own language.

- His "reluctancy" to talk to people who can provide good feedback (If CPM can-¦t talk to him properly, imagine a the proper forum feedback among a horde of trolls) may indicate a "Solitary Magic Solution" that we know is not very effective these days, or worst, a "Fack it, i-¦m doing my way cause i have a blank check"

- If version 2.0 is a fs far from new eden reality as it appears to be, i don-¦t even want to know what 1.0 was. My inner thinking still goes to "Need For Speed World" (that i played for a few months to be fair)

I know he has his job and have no obligation to talk or give any sort of satisfaction to players, but having "hurt feelings i-¦ll hide in my shell" is not productive, simple as that. Want to have an honest discussion of general ideas on a public space, or want to make videos showing his views and later analyzing feedback on comments? GREAT!

But if you can-¦t take the heat, either HTFU (Turn captions On) or stop teasing us into thinking we can contribute with things and do your own stuff, present the finished product to the public, and don-¦t complain when reviews come up.

Even with all the things that were said, i still don-¦t know the "Idea" of the game.

From what i got so far, we-¦ll have a resource collection game with player conflict mediated by some sort of trade betwwen players, similar to DayZ, The Forest, Silkroad and competition modes where people shoot each other in the face in "arena" like places.

There are games that do these things already, where is the "uniqueness" of Legion? By that i don-¦t mean doing something that has never been tried before, but simply arranging things in a way that make THIS game something to be played instead of THAT game.

Pointing that doing stuff without communicating with others properly (by that i mean CPM) is a bad bad bad sign, is not an emotional rant.

Well the thing is CCP Z is new to new eden overall so its taking time to coach him up and get him up to speed on the entire how the universe works. CCP Z is also one of those formerly black box devs to its been a careful dance on trying to get him out to the public or talking with the cpm and trying to make it a positive experience instead of something he rather run away from. So getting to talk to him directly has been becomming difficult because of not only this but the simple fact he is freakishly busy trying to get one of the major features needed for the project completed.

CCP Z does have principles and goals; to which I will say are needed; to make the game a bit more accessible to outsiders of new eden and a bit more approachable for the 15 minutes of glory Dust 514 normally engages in moment to moment (where as eve its 99% boredom and 1% sheer absolute terror)

Its the method you, me and we as a community are having problems with.and by that I know he is willing and able to change things around to keep on track to what is needed. If we, as a community, can get CCP Ratatti to open up more it would be great step forward but I did not appreciate some of the folks setting that back with their emotions out of check.