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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3362
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
The assault suit needs to be revisited and buffed. I'm sure CCP is aware of the fact that assaults are not useful in the endgame vs other suits and needs a change.
I would really like anyone looking to contribute to watch this video that describes "incomparables" and why they are so important.
Instead of using this as a pedestal to offer the community a bunch of my own idea's i've mulled around, I wonder if I can crowdsource tons of ideas I simply haven't thought of, and for the most part play devil's advocate with your ideas and see what emerges. :3
Also: Since this hasn't yet been confirmed to be plausible, I'm personally incentivizing the feedback and thus your time spent helping us all build a convincing and palatable fix to make our assault suits better again :D
The 2 ideas that gain the most support in the thread will be given 25 million isk each.
Bear in mind that CCP is possibly going to prefer to implement changes that are easier (changing numbers) as opposed to creating incomparables in the sense of the cloak for scouts.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9253
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Regeneration is an important part of the Assaulting role, and as such they should have the best regeneration when compared to their other racial suits.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
I've run out of stuff to spec into :(
-HAND
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Yoma Carrim
Last VenDetta. Dark Taboo
567
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
For a Hotfix I suggest increasing their slot count across the board so they have more highs and lows than their logi counterparts. Also give them more CPU/PG to make up for this.
In the long term the problem with Assaults isn't going to be solved with a backend hotfix.
Oh Heck
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Aisha Ctarl
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
4726
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Posted - 2014.06.09 11:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
The problem with assault suits is that you have scouts that can cloak and passively scan you down and heavy frames that have more eHP than you could ever imagine while you can't passively scan much at all, and show up on everyone's radar while also having mediocre eHP.
For example the Amarr Scout is a better assault suit than the assault, better slot layout, potential high eHP values, can slip under radar, and can scan down enemies as well.
There's currently no draw to play the assault role.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3433
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Posted - 2014.06.09 12:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
I recommend Aero and Kagehoshi's suggestion, which has also to do with Commandos.
And maybe Cat Merc's regeneration idea.
Also, you may want to add a link to the video.
BlowoutForCPM
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RogueTrooper 2000AD
RoyaLBanKof
73
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Posted - 2014.06.09 12:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Regeneration is an important part of the Assaulting role, and as such they should have the best regeneration when compared to their other racial suits. While I don't mean to derail the thread, KAGEHOSHI made an excellent point on what the Assault & Basic Medium Frames slots should look like, which should be looked into as well.
I usually agree with what kagehoshi says but that idea is a marvellously presented pile of sht.
Any proper logi will be forced to give up their regen to stack plates and shields if they lose slots.
The slayer Logis will just stack full plates and shields and carry triarge hives.
So basically just a big dump on Logis because of the few scrubbers, dusts life story.
Service with a smile
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10233
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Posted - 2014.06.09 12:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
I have mentioned multiple times in the past that I think assaults need regeneration on steroids, something no other suit can achieve without being gimped.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3366
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Posted - 2014.06.09 12:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I have mentioned multiple times in the past that I think assaults need regeneration on steroids, something no other suit can achieve without being gimped.
This has been my consensus for a long while as well. But I wondered if there are other less obvious ways.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10234
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Posted - 2014.06.09 12:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I have mentioned multiple times in the past that I think assaults need regeneration on steroids, something no other suit can achieve without being gimped. This has been my consensus for a long while as well. But I wondered if there are other less obvious ways. Well, all my other ideas include stuff that cannot be done with hotfixes, so they're out of the question.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3366
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 12:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:Cat Merc wrote:I have mentioned multiple times in the past that I think assaults need regeneration on steroids, something no other suit can achieve without being gimped. This has been my consensus for a long while as well. But I wondered if there are other less obvious ways. Well, all my other ideas include stuff that cannot be done with hotfixes, so they're out of the question.
Sadly this also seems to be the consensus.
Regardless of it's development cost I think it's worth exploring other options that may need more development time.
I think this is a case where the extra effort in terms of development is necessary. <3
I think regen is viable, and is the 'party line' so to speak, but I wonder if we just haven't thought of something else.
I wonder if there ARE other options that could be done with a hotfix instead of making Assaults regen monsters.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
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Grimmiers
581
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
This would probably be hell to balance properly, but what if assaults had a flat bonus to all modules used in their respective slots. For example, A gallente assault would have a 5% bonus to any module used in a low slot while a caldari assault would get the same for highs. Minmatar and Amarr would split the bonuses unevenly with 2% and 3% bonuses to their preferred slots.
I could put together a spreadsheet showing module bonuses if this is considered.
Besides that I'm already having an easier time using my assault suit with the armor repair modules buffed. I'm able to recover from surprise scout attacks and long skirmishes with heavies so maybe we could push repping further. |
Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3367
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:This would probably be hell to balance properly, but what if assaults had a flat bonus to all modules used in their respective slots. For example, A gallente assault would have a 5% bonus to any module used in a low slot while a caldari assault would get the same for highs. Minmatar and Amarr would split the bonuses unevenly with 2% and 3% bonuses to their preferred slots.
I could put together a spreadsheet showing module bonuses if this is considered.
Besides that I'm already having an easier time using my assault suit with the armor repair modules buffed. I'm able to recover from surprise scout attacks and long skirmishes with heavies so maybe we could push repping further.
That's super fascinating....making them slightly better at everything with regards to modules. Wow. +1
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
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Phoenix 85
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
121
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
fix minmatar.
EDUCATE YOURSELF ABOUT PC VS CONSOLE
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
632
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:I have mentioned multiple times in the past that I think assaults need regeneration on steroids, something no other suit can achieve without being gimped. yes the assault suit should have built in fast regeneration like the scout suit has built in scan and damps where you wouldn't need to put mods on the assault to get fast regeneration.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9256
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grimmiers wrote:This would probably be hell to balance properly, but what if assaults had a flat bonus to all modules used in their respective slots. For example, A gallente assault would have a 5% bonus to any module used in a low slot while a caldari assault would get the same for highs. Minmatar and Amarr would split the bonuses unevenly with 2% and 3% bonuses to their preferred slots.
I could put together a spreadsheet showing module bonuses if this is considered.
Besides that I'm already having an easier time using my assault suit with the armor repair modules buffed. I'm able to recover from surprise scout attacks and long skirmishes with heavies so maybe we could push repping further. That would be very hard to balance.
Take for example, the Shield Extender. Assuming you mean 5% efficiency per level, you would essentially be adding a 25% buff to Shield Extenders; pair that with the 10% efficiency that Shield Extension gives you, and your looking at 90HP Extenders at the Complex Tier.
Caldari Assaults would be inherently broken. Though there are possible workarounds to this, such as given certain efficiency bonuses for certain modules. i.e
+2% Shield Extender efficiency per level and +5% Shield Recharger & Energizer efficiency per level.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
I've run out of stuff to spec into :(
-HAND
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
10238
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well, Assault ships in EVE get bonuses to Micro Warp Drives, which is like kinetic catalyzers on steroids.
We could try to give assaults kin cat bonuses, but that would somewhat imbalance shield and armor assaults, since one can both have a full rack of tank and kin cats, while the other needs to choose to sacrifice tank to have one kin cat.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1858
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
I've an idea, but it'd mean implementing new modules entirely. (And they said they wont be doing client side updates) Weapon Mod slots. Each suit would have an amount of Weapon mod slots, Assaults (At prototype) with 4 or so, Heavies and lights with 2, and Logis with 1.
This would mean creating new sills, moving damage modules to these new slots, and making modules such as ammo expansion, heat sinks, possibly RoF mods etc. It'd be nice.
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3367
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Atiim wrote:
Take for example, the Shield Extender. Assuming you mean 5% efficiency per level, you would essentially be adding a 25% buff to Shield Extenders; pair that with the 10% efficiency that Shield Extension gives you, and your looking at 90HP Extenders at the Complex Tier.
Caldari Assaults would be inherently broken. Though there are possible workarounds to this, such as given certain efficiency bonuses for certain modules. i.e
+2% Shield Extender efficiency per level and +5% Shield Recharger & Energizer efficiency per level.
He didn't say 5% per level.
And I think it's quite a hasty assumption to discount the idea even if it was 5% per level until you theorycraft a fit and demonstrate why it's broken. 2 many good ideas get tossed out before they have been considered because of feedback like this.
90 on a complex would only be an increase of 54 ehp with 3 complex shield extenders.
I hardly see how that is gamebreaking.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3367
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Spademan wrote:I've an idea, but it'd mean implementing new modules entirely. (And they said they wont be doing client side updates) Weapon Mod slots. Each suit would have an amount of Weapon mod slots, Assaults (At prototype) with 4 or so, Heavies and lights with 2, and Logis with 1.
This would mean creating new sills, moving damage modules to these new slots, and making modules such as ammo expansion, heat sinks, possibly RoF mods etc. It'd be nice.
This is AMAZING, but perhaps a little 2 ambitious. <3 BUT STILL AMAZEBALLS
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
Follow me on twitter Skype Zatara.Rought
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
3309
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Caldari and Gallente:buff CPU/PG
Caldari:+100 shields and a bonus to extenders and regulators effenicy.
Gallente:+1 rep or bonus to repair modules(those with the recent buff to repair mods, that one could be OP) and +80 armour
Amarr:+90 armour +25 shields
Minmatar:+80 shields
Maybe add a 1 percent bonus per level to dmg of racial weapons. But that could break the Minny when combined with the ACR/CR and the minnys
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3367
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Posted - 2014.06.09 13:40:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Well, Assault ships in EVE get bonuses to Micro Warp Drives, which is like kinetic catalyzers on steroids.
We could try to give assaults kin cat bonuses, but that would somewhat imbalance shield and armor assaults, since one can both have a full rack of tank and kin cats, while the other needs to choose to sacrifice tank to have one kin cat.
I looked at Kagehoshi's thread and something that's been bothering me lately has been the reality that modules account for the VAST majority of all tank on all suits aside from sentinels/commando's.
If your suits base EHP comprised a MUCH larger % of your EHP pool andbrick tanking as a whole might only increase youre pool by say...30% as opposed to the 80% is is most of the time for non heavy frames (let's not get into e-war or gank) then I think balancing things like assaults and even modules like rechargers and regulators would be MUCH easier.
Because the choice isn't so drastic to your tank of choice.
Also, chew on this idea...to create imperfect balance what if we made assaults the ones with the close to parity of high/low slots (think 5 high's 3 low's on a caldari) while logi's were more polarized (6 high's 2 lows on caldari).
Just a thought to create more diversity.
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
1600
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
I've said this before, but I'll do so one last time. Give an additional bonus to each racial suit in order to increase it's survivability, and thus it's killing effectiveness.
Gallente: 3~5% Bonus to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates Per Level
Result: Gallente Assaults become an armor buffer tank who get additional eHP and repairs from reactive plates and a lot better repairs from their armor repair modules. Gallente assault becomes viable.
Amarr: 3~5% Bonus to a Armor Plates and Ferroscale Plates Per Level
Result: Amarr assaults become armor eHP tanks, basically becoming a light heavy suit with a smaller hit box. Amarr assault becomes viable
Caldari: 3~5% Bonus to Shield Extender, Recharger and Energizer Modules Per Level
Result: Caldari suits become shield eHP tanks with super fast shield regeneration. Caldari assault becomes viable.
Minmatar: 20% Increase to Damage Modules and 3~5% Increase to Shield Regulator Modules Per Level
Result: Minmatar Assault becomes a hit-and-run shield buffer tank with high DPS and low eHP. Minmatar assault becomes viable.
The Minmatar bonus is tricky because you don't want to make it tanky but you want it to be effective. Giving it a bonus to 20% damage mods brings their damage mods to 10% at level 5 instead of the current 5% at complex tier, thus helping them to make up for their ridiculously low eHP. And the regulator bonus also helps them make up for their low eHP by helping them get their shields back more quickly.
I think the other bonuses speak for themselves.
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3367
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:I've said this before, but I'll do so one last time. Give an additional bonus to each racial suit in order to increase it's survivability, and thus it's killing effectiveness.
Gallente: 3~5% Bonus to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates Per Level
Result: Gallente Assaults become an armor buffer tank who get additional eHP and repairs from reactive plates and a lot better repairs from their armor repair modules. Gallente assault becomes viable.
Amarr: 3~5% Bonus to a Armor Plates and Ferroscale Plates Per Level
Result: Amarr assaults become armor eHP tanks, basically becoming a light heavy suit with a smaller hit box. Amarr assault becomes viable
Caldari: 3~5% Bonus to Shield Extender, Recharger and Energizer Modules Per Level
Result: Caldari suits become shield eHP tanks with super fast shield regeneration. Caldari assault becomes viable.
Minmatar: 20% Increase to Damage Modules and 3~5% Increase to Shield Regulator Modules Per Level
Result: Minmatar Assault becomes a hit-and-run shield buffer tank with high DPS and low eHP. Minmatar assault becomes viable.
The Minmatar bonus is tricky because you don't want to make it tanky but you want it to be effective. Giving it a bonus to 20% damage mods lets their damage mods to 10% at level 5 instead of the current 5%, thus helping them to make up for their ridiculously low eHP. And the regulator bonus also helps them make up for their low eHP by helping them get their shields back more quickly.
I think the other bonuses speak for themselves.
Somehow I feel like this alone still wouldn't give me enough of a significant reason to choose assault over scouts or logi's.
Just gut, but i'd love to see some fits that demonstrate the strength of this suggestion :D
BTW, gg earlier Baal, those knives hurt
CEO of FA, Candidate for CPM1
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn
3310
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 13:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
I don't know about the dmg mod bonus Baal. There was a reason they were nerfed, maybe give them a 50 percent bonus and or a fitting reduction. But you'd have to drop the bonus to CR magazine.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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Baal Omniscient
L.O.T.I.S.
1602
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Posted - 2014.06.09 14:03:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:I've said this before, but I'll do so one last time. Give an additional bonus to each racial suit in order to increase it's survivability, and thus it's killing effectiveness.
Gallente: 3~5% Bonus to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates Per Level
Result: Gallente Assaults become an armor buffer tank who get additional eHP and repairs from reactive plates and a lot better repairs from their armor repair modules. Gallente assault becomes viable.
Amarr: 3~5% Bonus to a Armor Plates and Ferroscale Plates Per Level
Result: Amarr assaults become armor eHP tanks, basically becoming a light heavy suit with a smaller hit box. Amarr assault becomes viable
Caldari: 3~5% Bonus to Shield Extender, Recharger and Energizer Modules Per Level
Result: Caldari suits become shield eHP tanks with super fast shield regeneration. Caldari assault becomes viable.
Minmatar: 20% Increase to Damage Modules and 3~5% Increase to Shield Regulator Modules Per Level
Result: Minmatar Assault becomes a hit-and-run shield buffer tank with high DPS and low eHP. Minmatar assault becomes viable.
The Minmatar bonus is tricky because you don't want to make it tanky but you want it to be effective. Giving it a bonus to 20% damage mods lets their damage mods to 10% at level 5 instead of the current 5%, thus helping them to make up for their ridiculously low eHP. And the regulator bonus also helps them make up for their low eHP by helping them get their shields back more quickly.
I think the other bonuses speak for themselves. Somehow I feel like this alone still wouldn't give me enough of a significant reason to choose assault over scouts or logi's. Just gut, but i'd love to see some fits that demonstrate the strength of this suggestion :D BTW, gg earlier Baal, those knives hurt Yeah, we were attempting to run a full on Nova Knife squad, nothing but knives and SMG's. Worked in a few games, but then someone had the bright idea of trying to put us in an ambush. Actually ran into another knifer a couple matches later who put away his shotty and stared me down as I came at him with my SMG. I noticed he was just standing there, so I stopped and looked at him. He swiped his knives and continued to stare. I yelled out to my squad "Stay the hell on that side guys, this guy want's a knife duel!" They all started bawling laughing and walked around the edge of C to watch. I did a "bow" with triangle, he returned it, then we had our duel. I won. =D Sent him a GG, he wasn't happy he lost lol
Coolest Dust moment in recent memory.
On topic: It's small changes that make the game stay balanced, this I feel is a good starting point. I'd like to start with this and see where things lead from here. It's not a buff bat, but it is at least a buff screwdriver.
Oh, and GG. =)
PSN ID: AlbelNox2569
Cross Atu for CPM1
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CUSE TOWN333
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
633
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 14:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Well, Assault ships in EVE get bonuses to Micro Warp Drives, which is like kinetic catalyzers on steroids.
We could try to give assaults kin cat bonuses, but that would somewhat imbalance shield and armor assaults, since one can both have a full rack of tank and kin cats, while the other needs to choose to sacrifice tank to have one kin cat. I looked at Kagehoshi's thread and something that's been bothering me lately has been the reality that modules account for the VAST majority of all tank on all suits aside from sentinels/commando's. If your suits base EHP comprised a MUCH larger % of your EHP pool andbrick tanking as a whole might only increase youre pool by say...30% as opposed to the 80% is is most of the time for non heavy frames (let's not get into e-war or gank) then I think balancing things like assaults and even modules like rechargers and regulators would be MUCH easier. Because the choice isn't so drastic to your tank of choice. Also, chew on this idea...to create imperfect balance what if we made assaults the ones with the close to parity of high/low slots (think 5 high's 3 low's on a caldari) while logi's were more polarized (6 high's 2 lows on caldari). Just a thought to create more diversity. yes because the assault suit is suppose to be able to fit the changeing role of the battle were as instead of just brick tanking my suit every time i spawn in i would have many fits for what i need to do at the time i spawn in without sacrificing HP to fit things like codebrakers if i need to get a fast hack off, or damps to sneak in to the enemy home point. If the assault suit was versatile without sacrificing HP then it would have a clear role in the game.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu
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Harpyja
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
1847
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Posted - 2014.06.09 15:02:00 -
[27] - Quote
I've a couple ideas.
The first is one that gets repeated a lot: increase slot counts. Also, the Amarr assault needs an equal number of slots as the other suits. There's no reason it shouldn't, it's whopping 30 extra armor is offset by it being the slowest suit.
The second is to give an additional skill bonus for a defensive bonus. This can either be (Amarr-plate efficacy,Caldari-extender efficacy, Gallente-repair efficacy, Minmatar-recharger efficacy) or fitting reduction on (Amarr/Gallente-armor modules, Caldari-shield modules, Minmatar-split between armor and shield modules).
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11057
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Posted - 2014.06.09 16:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
RogueTrooper 2000AD wrote:Atiim wrote:Regeneration is an important part of the Assaulting role, and as such they should have the best regeneration when compared to their other racial suits. While I don't mean to derail the thread, KAGEHOSHI made an excellent point on what the Assault & Basic Medium Frames slots should look like, which should be looked into as well. I usually agree with what kagehoshi says but that idea is a marvellously presented pile of sht. Any proper logi will be forced to give up their regen to stack plates and shields if they lose slots. The slayer Logis will just stack full plates and shields and carry triarge hives. So basically just a big dump on Logis because of the few scrubbers, dusts life story. Read it again, most logis would not lose slots. Only proto Cal logi would lose 1 modul, but gain an equipment, and I explained why. Currently at proto Amarr logi has 7 mod slots, Gallente has 8, Minmatar has 8, and Caldari has 9 (2 more than Caldari assault). The plan in regards to assaults is to raise their slots at proto to match their logi counterparts so they can tank more HP than logis, but if Cal logi has 9, and it would be ridiculous to raise Caldari assault to 9 module slots, so reducing the Cal logi to 8 module slots at proto in exchange for a new equipment slot is necrssary for the assaul to have a higher HP limit than the logi. Aside from proto Cal logi, all logis would be either the same or better (especially better because of more slots at standard and advanced). The module slot gap between tiers for both logi and assault would be just 1 for each successive tier: 6 modules standard, 7 advanced, 8 proto.
Don't misrepresent my idea.
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Ghost Kaisar
The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance
5161
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Posted - 2014.06.09 16:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
My Thoughts on the Assault Specialization.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but the bonuses should be geared toward REGENERATION / INDEPENDENCE.
Why? They need to be able to function without support. The front lines need to survive or push WITHOUT Logistical support. Logi's are slower and will be helping out the Heavies and Commando's, so the Assault needs to be able to function in the field without them.
What is an assault? It's a sustained offensive against multiple or a single position (with the latter being known as a siege).
Now, in this assault, you will be exposed to enemy fire. Now, once you have been hurt, you can't really rush forward and push. You have to wait for your health to regen.
This is where the bonus comes in handy. It allows them to "Assault" an objective by allowing them to continuously attack in "Waves" as they assault the objective and then fall back to regen.
How is this useful? Simply put, they are INDEPENDENT.
They don't require a Logi. They can regenerate their own health just fine, so they can operate without one. Since they are also faster than the other medium frames, this can let a squad of 3-4 assaults head ahead of the Logi's and Heavies (and Commando's) to soften up objectives before the Big Boys come in.
Slot # should be 7 for both Logistics and Assault. 8 Has always seemed like too much for me, and I don't see a reason to reduce it below 7 either. 7 Seems to work.
Example of the Min Assault: Fixed.
4/3 Layout. Allows the Min Assault to Shield tank or armor tank. Flexibility is the calling card of this assault. In exchange, it has a lower eHP total compared to the other assaults.
Assault suit bonus of 5% Increase to total Ammo for Light/Sidearms per Level (Allows them to function without Logi's and they don't have to run Nanohives as much. Suppressive fire anyone?)
Racial Bonus for Minmatar: 5% Increase to Kincat Efficacy and Shield Regulator Efficacy
How Minmatar Shielding is different from Caldari: Minmatar regenerate their shields quickly with smaller amounts (Low recharge rates and low regen rates.)
Caldari regenerate their shields slower, but with much greater quantity per cycle (Higher Recharge rates, Higher Regen Rates)
This is to try and show the difference in how they operate. The Combat rifle is in urban environments, such as the city. The Min Assault sprints around and acts as a skirmish fighter. They rapidly flank targets and are capable of supressive fire at mid-range.
The Cal Assault is supposed to be a ranged warrior. It engages at longer ranges and pins down targets with long range suppression fire. If they start taking damage, they fall to cover, and in a short time, shields are replenished. They get back up to tank the shots again and kill the threat. They cover the other shorter range assaults.
The Gal Assaults are supposed to be the CQC Fighter. With Excellent armor and Repair (Along with that AR) they can tank damage in short bursts and recover, even when under fire. They can sit around a corner and pop in and out, dealing and receiving damage and constantly repping. They seek to outlast their opponents in engagements.
The Amarr Assaults are the Mid-Range Alpha fighters. They sit outside of normal engagement range and hit HARD with laser weaponry. They work in tandem with the other assaults by being able to quickly strip the shields off of targets, and having enough tank to sustain themselves when they take aggro. Slower and less manueverable, they act as mid-long range support for the shorter ranged assaults.
This is just my take on how the assaults should be. Sorry about the long read, but I had a lot I wanted to say.
Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP
PSN: EVL_Elgost105
RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11057
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
Officially entering this idea in the contest, major assault slot buff.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:[UPDATE]:Spreadsheet for Rattati >>HERE<< There are big problems with the medium frame slot layouts that need to be addressed. "Too long; didn't read" (TL;DR) version on post 2 (click here). [Assault & logistics issues] Slayer logi issue originates from the logis to tank more HP than their assault counterparts, allowing them to be more survivable killing platforms. This problem won't truly go away until the slots are handled correctly, just right now brick-tank scouts are bigger issue. Logis sacrifice sidearms, mobility, & base HP in exchange for for 2-3 more equipment (equip) slots than their assault counterparts. That seems like a fair deal, but on top of the 2 or 3 more equip slots, there is some crazy weirdness with the slot layouts that leads to imbalance. - At standard (STD) tier all logis (with the odd exception of the Amarr (Am) one) have inferior module (mod) slot layouts compared to the STD assault counterparts. - Advanced (ADV) tier logis either get equal or superior mod slot layouts compared to their ADV assault counterparts. - Prototype (PRO) tier logis all gain an extra low slot than their PRO assault counterpart, the caldari one also gains an extra high slot also. Summary: logis underpowered (UP) at STD tier, balanced or overpowered (OP) at ADV, & all OP at PRO.
No reason for the Caldari (Cal) logi only having 2 equip at STD instead of 3; it isn't gaining anything extra compared to other STD logis or its assault counterpart for the sacrifice. The STD Cal logi is UP even compared to the other UP STD logis.
There is also the issue of the Am medium slot layouts. 1.8 has Am mediums shifting from hybrid tanking (equal shields & armor) to predominantly having armor; this requires a slot layout change of more low slots for effective armor tanking. Right now the progression of Am mediums is odd, they start with more high slots (2 at militia (MLT) & STD).
Am assault has less mod slots than other assaults. Yes it has a tiny 30 more base HP than the Caldari & Gallente assault, a small advantage already countered by being the slowest assault. It should be noted that the Am scout, Am sentinel, & Am commando also has more base HP compared to the other races' dropsuits of the same roles, yet these other Am suits aren't forced to give up a slot; neither should the Am assault since the extra HP is already balanced by the speed loss. This issue makes the Am assault suffer the most from the brick-tanked scout problem, since the Am scout has more mod slots at STD-ADV than the assault, & same mod slot count at PRO; this allows the Am scout to surpass the Am assault in HP, while being faster, having a 2nd equip, stealthier, etc.
[Basic medium frame issues] Give basic frames a purpose, there is 36 STD-PRO basic frames; way too many suits in the game to have be completely useless; useless because they're inferior versions of the specialized suits (ex: assaults, scouts, etc), & they can't even be used as a way to save money since they cost the same as the specialized suits; there is no reason to use a basic frame after unlocking specialization. We should never have 36 items that are worthless. For more on the basic frame issue go here. Basic mediums should be generalized middle-ground between the assault & logi, it would make the assault truly specialized by comparison instead of just being basic frames with bonuses added. It would also give players the ability to test-drive both assault & logi roles before specializing; right now you can test out the assault role with a basic medium, but can't with a logi role with their parent frame. [Solution] Part 1: assault & logi Give the Cal logistics 3 equip slots at STD. Also 4 equip at PRO (reduce mod slot from 9 to 8 in exchange).
Give all assaults the same number of mod slots.
Equalize the mod slot layouts for assaults & logis of the same race & tier:
Assault & logi STD (high/low) Am: 2/4 Ga: 2/4 Ca: 4/2 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 3/3 Assault & logi ADV Am: 2/5 Ga: 3/4 Ca: 5/2 Min: 4/3 Assault & logi PRO Am: 3/5 Ga: 3/5 Ca: 5/3 (+1 equip for logi) Min: 4/4 Part 2: basic medium framesTo fix the aforementioned issue, basic medium frames should have: One more equip for a total of 2. Makes basics generalist between assault & logi.
1 less mod slot than their assault & logi counterparts; Tradeoff for more equip slots.
Basic medium MLT (high/low/equip) Am: 2/2/2 Ga: 1/3/2 Ca: 3/1/2 Min: 2/1/2 Basic medium STD Am: 2/3/2 Ga: 2/3/2 Ca: 3/2/2 Min: 3/2/2 Basic medium ADV Am: 2/4/2 Ga: 2/4/2 Ca: 4/2/2 Min: 3/3/2 Basic medium PRO Am: 3/4/2 Ga: 2/5/2 Ca: 5/2/2 Min: 4/3/2 Obviously PG/CPU should be tweakedBoth assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this planGû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3373
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Officially entering this idea in the contest, major assault slot buff. I want ISK.
Reasons I don'tl ike this.
instead of making the slot count unique or polarizing it's just not going to be a major boost to assaults for them to have the increased cpu/pg along with slot count increase.
If I get 1 equip, a bit more mobility and a sidearm vs 4 equips...I'm going with 4 equips.
And most have reasoned this way despite the assault suit at proto level having had marginally more tank vs logi's in the past.
I want something incomparable, something that sets it apart. <3
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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Lynn Beck
Heaven's Lost Property
1739
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 16:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Buff base Hp, or make them regen monsters)50/s Caldari Assault and 60/s Min, 35/s Amarr, and (depending on Hp) 25 or 40/s.
Give all assaults inherent armor reps, with gal having more.
Amarr should get 3/5 slot, Caldari 5/3, Minmatar 4/4, Gallente 4/4(maybe drop mod slots by 1?) Alternate woul be Am 2/5, Gal 3/4, Min 4/3, Cal 5/2
Keep current bonuses, but add on a 3% per level module efficacy bonus, either all modules(to enforce their generalist nature) or to Kincats/shield extenders/armor plates/reduction to movement penalty(reinforcing their 'assaulty' nature, meaning they are the preferred class to storm an Objective and take it quickly.)
General John Ripper
Like ALL the things!!!
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
11060
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 18:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:I recommend Aero and Kagehoshi's suggestion, which has also to do with Commandos.
And maybe Cat Merc's regeneration idea.
Also, you may want to add a link to the video. Aero's thread for those who have not seen
Aero Yassavi wrote:Premise"There is too much overlap between the Assault and Commando." This is something I hear very often, and it definitely has its share of truth. Over the course of my Dust career I've dabbled in every role, but by far my most used suits are the Assault and Commando. While I can tell apart the very subtle differences between the suits and what would be a better choice in a certain situation, it has gotten to the point where after the Uprising 1.8 respec I skilled into every class except the Assault because it was too similar to the Commando to warrant another couple million of my SP. What's even more worrisome is CCP notices this as well as evident by the Commando not even existing in the current build of Project Legion. However, for the purposes of this thread let's keep the discussion to what can be done to differentiate the Assault and Commando through hotfixes in Dust 514. If successful, maybe we can see the Commandos return in Legion My ProposalLet me stress that this is just my opinion on what would make the two roles distinct. Please take it for nothing more. Use it as a starting ground to bring your own proposals to the table, or don't and bring up new proposals completely unrelated to how I do it! The point is, let's all come up with ideas and provide constructive feedback to each other. So let me begin. Currently there isn't much differentiating the two. Both specializations bring hard hitting firepower to the table, while the Assaults get a little more mobility and a smaller hitbox whereas Commandos get two light weapons and more EHP. These are some great starting points, but not nearly enough to truly differentiate the two. I would believe the problem really starts to come into play when you examine the bonuses. The Assaults generally get bonuses that extend the fight, such as Amarr being able to fire laser weaponry longer, Minmatar being able to fire more projectile rounds before reloading, and Caldari being able to reload rails faster to continue shooting again sooner. The Commandos on the other time all have bonuses that shorten the fight, with flat DPS bonuses to down the enemy quicker. When you consider that the Assault is the one with less EHP that means it is less survivable in full out firefights which means it doesn't make sense that it would want to extend the fight. Really, the bonuses are backwards. Assaults should be trying to end a fight as soon as possible, whereas a Commando should be extending it (the Dust in-game client calls Commandos "the ultimate suppression fighters"). So let's start with this: Assault Class: 2% increased damage to light weapons and sidearms per level Amarr Assault: 5% decreased heat build up to laser weaponry per level Caldari Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - rail weaponry per level Gallente Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - blaster weaponry per level Minmatar Assault: 5% increased magazine size to projectile weaponry per level*adjusted based on Kagehoshi's feedbackAlright so now time for the Commando. This is a little trickier because it's not as simple as simply taking all the old assault, because for one they weren't that great to begin with, secondly the Caldari Assault's bonus overlaps with the Commando class bonus, and thirdly the Gallente Assault's bonus doesn't really fit with the theme of "the ultimate suppression fighter." So what would work? Well if we are going to go for making them suppression fighters then ammo capacity seems like a logical place to look at. And if it is going to be ammo capacity, then it will have to be something significant to make it feel worth it. So how about this: Commando Class: 20% increased ammo capacity of light weapons and sidearms per level Amarr Commando: 5% increased reload speed of laser weaponry per level Caldari Commando: 5% increased reload speed of hybrid - rail weaponry per level Gallente Commando: 5% increased reload speed of hybrid - blaster weaponry per level Minmatar Commando: 5% increased reload speed of projectile and explosive weaponry per level*adjusted based on Kagehoshi's feedbackDo note that for both the Assault and Commando, all bonuses apply to both light weapons and sidearms. This is because one should not be penalized for wanting to use a sidearm in the light weapon slot, as it is a cascading system. And this actually paves the way for the Assault to have two light weapon slots as discussed for Project Legion and still be distinctive enough from the Commando. ConclusionThe Assault and Commando now fill two very distinctive roles. The Assault class as the speed and mobility to charge in bases or flank the enemy and then deal with them quickly, whereas the Commando is less mobile but still able to keep up with the squad and has the EHP to provide constant suppression fire with up two twice the normal ammo capacity and a fast reload speed to boot! The Commando may not be doing much killing as it won't have the strongest weapons (the Assault will) but it will be able to constantly fire for a long duration, even if it knows it is not hitting anyone, and become that "ultimate suppression fighter."
Gû¦Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum altGû+
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Gelan Corbaine
Gladiators Vanguard
445
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Posted - 2014.06.09 18:57:00 -
[34] - Quote
As a MinMando I can't say I care much for Aero's idea at all.... Matar would come out the worse with those changes .
No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
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Izlare Lenix
Last VenDetta. Dark Taboo
684
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 19:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Assault suits are for attacking and killing. They should definitely get a damage bonuses and maybe even a defensive bonus like resistance to splash damage or a weapon resistance like how the sentinels receive.
But a damage bonus should be the priority.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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Grimmiers
582
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Posted - 2014.06.09 20:50:00 -
[36] - Quote
Module Bonuses Spreadsheet
Caldari - 20% Bonus on High slots (4% per level) Gallente -20% Bonus on Low slots (4% per level)
Minmatar 15% Bonus on High 10% Bonus on Low (3/2% per level) Amarr 10% Bonus on High 15% on low (2/3% per level)
All the modules are put in the spreadsheet with the assault bonuses and skill bonuses applied. I didn't go into making fits yet.
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Xocoyol Zaraoul
Superior Genetics
1940
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Posted - 2014.06.09 20:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
All assault suits need an actual "I am special" bonus...
Scouts have a cloaked and ewar bonus on all roles, and are fast. Sents just won't die and carry huge weapons, and are slow. Commandos carry versatile mix of weapons and deal a lot of damage. Logies carry craploads of equip and support bonuses (My corpmates still make bank SP and WP with them, "nerfs" be damned). Assaults, uh.... Are... Slightly faster and substantially shittier commandos... Whoopidy friggen do...
Assaults need a niche, more then any mere bonus, they need an honest-to-god nitch. They need a nitch that is NOT one of the following:
- Heavy Weapons
- DPS
- Equipment Spam
- Speed
- Durability
- EWAR
My suggestion is to give all assaults bonuses to 1.) Max Ammunition (Not clip size) for racial weapons AND range bonus and 2.) Massive increase to racial regen preference (So armor tanks have a very high repper rate and shield tanks have a very high shield regen).
This would allow Assaults to stay on the field the longest, have the shortest downtime, and have the longest threat range of any role. This means they would NOT step on the toes of any other role and yet be unique enough that they won't be garbage.
But what do I know... I'm 12.
"You see those red dots over there?
Go and shoot them until you see a +50 on the screen" - Arkena Wyrnspire
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1860
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 21:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Spademan wrote:I've an idea, but it'd mean implementing new modules entirely. (And they said they wont be doing client side updates) Weapon Mod slots. Each suit would have an amount of Weapon mod slots, Assaults (At prototype) with 4 or so, Heavies and lights with 2, and Logis with 1.
This would mean creating new sills, moving damage modules to these new slots, and making modules such as ammo expansion, heat sinks, possibly RoF mods etc. It'd be nice. This is AMAZING, but perhaps a little 2 ambitious. <3 BUT STILL AMAZEBALLS Thanks. Another advantage i see from this is that it counteracts the Logi argument that they have to spend more isk and Sp on their fittings. Might be ambitious, but there's no reason not to pass it on to CCP from time to time
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9275
|
Posted - 2014.06.09 21:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: But what do I know... I'm 12.
Age means nothing as long as you conduct yourself in a civil and proper manner.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
I've run out of stuff to spec into :(
-HAND
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3382
|
Posted - 2014.06.10 05:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Spademan wrote: Thanks. Another advantage i see from this is that it counteracts the Logi argument that they have to spend more isk and Sp on their fittings. Might be ambitious, but there's no reason not to pass it on to CCP from time to time
Indeed. I think it might be unfeasible on dust, but if they said they'd like to do it i'd be way impressed.
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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LionTurtle91
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
218
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Posted - 2014.06.10 12:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Yeah that Weapon Mod Slot idea is amazing!
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3398
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 01:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
BUMP.
All entries for the 50 million isk must be done by 23:59 on 6/20.
Got some great ideas here! <3
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
2329
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 17:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Well, Assault ships in EVE get bonuses to Micro Warp Drives, which is like kinetic catalyzers on steroids.
We could try to give assaults kin cat bonuses, but that would somewhat imbalance shield and armor assaults, since one can both have a full rack of tank and kin cats, while the other needs to choose to sacrifice tank to have one kin cat. I looked at Kagehoshi's thread and something that's been bothering me lately has been the reality that modules account for the VAST majority of all tank on all suits aside from sentinels/commando's. If your suits base EHP comprised a MUCH larger % of your EHP pool andbrick tanking as a whole might only increase youre pool by say...30% as opposed to the 80% is is most of the time for non heavy frames (let's not get into e-war or gank) then I think balancing things like assaults and even modules like rechargers and regulators would be MUCH easier. Because the choice isn't so drastic to your tank of choice. Also, chew on this idea...to create imperfect balance what if we made assaults the ones with the close to parity of high/low slots (think 5 high's 3 low's on a caldari) while logi's were more polarized (6 high's 2 lows on caldari). Just a thought to create more diversity. Exploring the concept of suit based eHP seems worth a look, specifically as described above shifting the overall ratio to an extent. Creating meaningful slot competition is important and such a ratio shift might help in that. One important thing to keep in mind is that every class is rather eHP dependent (and let's be clear we're talking eHP here, not raw HP) because if you're not alive you can't X,Y,Z so in an ideal world eHP should be nearly identical across the lines (while raw HP certainly will not be). There is no class that doesn't need to survive and suit stats under this proposal would need to reflect that.
As to the slot allocation I'm in support of this rundown. Some basic stats might need a second look in light of the above proposed ratio changes but that's totally workable IMO.
0.02 ISK Cross
PS ~ Looking forward to hearing further perspectives on this.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Meee One
BATTLE SURVEY GROUP Dark Taboo
848
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 18:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Logis currently sacrifice: -Shield -Armor -Sidearm -Movement/sprint speed
For +1 module slot and + 3 equipment slots.
So giving assaults the same (or more) slots just wouldn't be right. Logis are hunted by everyone,and have to pay 10k+ isk for a single piece of equipment.
Unless logis get buffed in some way,i'll fight this suggestion tooth and nail.
Simple answer?
Buff assault eHP to above basic mediums but below commando,and buff logis speed (2nd only to scouts) and hack (to be the fastest) that would be a reasonable trade.
inb4 2nd spam (grenade) slot
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3405
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 18:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Logis currently sacrifice: -Shield -Armor -Sidearm -Movement/sprint speed
For +1 module slot and + 3 equipment slots.
So giving assaults the same (or more) slots just wouldn't be right. Logis are hunted by everyone,and have to pay 10k+ isk for a single piece of equipment.
Unless logis get buffed in some way,i'll fight this suggestion tooth and nail.
Simple answer?
Buff assault eHP to above basic mediums but below commando,and buff logis speed (2nd only to scouts) and hack (to be the fastest) that would be a reasonable trade.
inb4 2nd spam (grenade) slot
I think these ideas can be improved.
Logi's sacrifice speed and a sidearm, the amount of tank you can get on a logi is very nearly identical to assaults due to superior slot count.
They also get a lot more cpu/pg and that was BEFORE the bonus reduction to equipment was applied to all logi's.
I am not convinced logi's should have more slots. Equipment is precious. Perhaps equipment IS 2 expensive though. That's an interesting assertion.
I do not believe logi's should be faster than assaults. Those equips gotta be traded off for speed IMO.
And I certainly don't think logi's should have a faster hack base speed than scouts, but perhaps should be 2nd. I'm more open about that.
I don't like the fact that logi's end up with more tank in most cases vs assaults due to the cpu/pg differences.
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9391
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 20:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:[q He didn't say 5% per level.
And I think it's quite a hasty assumption to discount the idea even if it was 5% per level until you theorycraft a fit and demonstrate why it's broken. 2 many good ideas get tossed out before they have been considered because of feedback like this.
90 on a complex would only be an increase of 54 ehp with 3 complex shield extenders.
I hardly see how that is gamebreaking. After taking your suggestion and theorycrafing fittings, I've found that your correct and they aren't gamebreaking. Apologies for jumping the gun there.
But if his proposal is not on a per level basis then it'd be worthless. Nobody's going to invest SP or use a suit that only gives them an extra 3.3HP per extender or 0.25% damage increase.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
Proud defender of Ishukone Corporation.
-HAMD
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
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Posted - 2014.06.12 20:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
I know it's boring but I think the answer is just slight buffs to assault (medium frame) hp and regen. Maybe slightly increase the Gallente hip fire bonus and the Caldari reload bonus.
I have very carefully compared scout, assault and logistic suits and predictably the differences are not as pronounced as the forums would have you believe. I know commandos full fill a similar role but they do feel a lot slower which, combined with the weapon differences, distinguishes them from assaults.
What distinguishes an assault from a scout or logi fitted like an assault?
Assaults have more hp and better weapons than scouts but are a little slower and have minimal ewar. They are faster, have more base hp, better regen and better weapons than logis, but less slots, less equipment and less effective equipment.
Straight damage increases would overlap with commandos. Also I feel the current bonuses are good, except that possibly the Gal and Cal bonuses need buffing.
Increasing speed would overlap with scouts.
Increasing slots would overlap with logis who are supposed to have the most versatile slot configuration, something that is key to the philosophy of the suit. Logis are not just about equipment and hp stacking.
This leaves hp and hp regen. I believe small increases to these stats would solidify assault suits as the premium fast, group combat suit. Leaving stealthy assassination to scouts and support/versatility to logis.
One other thing that might need buffing is assault cpu/pg. Only because the equipment slots on logi and scout suits allow more fitting room if you skimp on equipment fitting. |
Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
568
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 21:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
I think we need to do a few things, starting with adding another bonus to modules of respective races as follows.
Caldari - 2% bonus to shiled extender efficiency per level Gallente - 2% bonus to armor rep efficiency per level Amarr - 2% bonus to armor plates per level Minmatar - 2% bonus to shield regulators per level
Or something along these lines.
Secondly we need to fix some slot layouts and tier progression.
Standard, advanced, proto (high slots/low slots)
Caldari - 3/2, 4/2, 5/2 Gallente - 2/3, 2/4, 3/4 Amarr - 2/3, 2/4, 2/5 Minmatar - 3/2, 4/2, 4/3
Maybe something like this...
I am hesitant to suggest increasing slot count in fear of becoming OP but am not opposed to it . Instead though, I'd much rather see a much smaller (or reversed) descrepancy in assault and scout regeneration. The main reason scouts have taken the assault role is because they are capable of similar HP, superior eWar, speed, and regeneration. I think the key here is the regeneration. Honestly I don't understand why scouts should need such high regen. A true "scout" has lower end HP and doesn't get hit much, really doesn't equal a need for regen.
SMG Specialist
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Cyrus Grevare
warravens Final Resolution.
226
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 22:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
I do kind of feel that assaults should also have slightly better ewar being like: Light [ Scout ] > Medium [ Assaut > Logistics ] > Heavy [ Commando > Sentinel ]
As it stands scouts have a monopoly on it:
BASE EWAR STATS [ Profile / Precision / Radius ] [ 35 / 40 / 20.0 ] Scout [ 50 / 50 / 10.0 ] Assault [ 50 / 45 / 15.0 ] Logistics [ 60 / 55 / 10.0 ] Commando [ 60 / 55 / 10.0 ] Sentinel
A more appealing curve taking the current scout attributes as a starting point [ 35 / 40 / 20.0 ] Scout [ 40 / 45 / 17.5 ] Assault [ 45 / 50 / 15.0 ] Logistics [ 50 / 55 / 12.5 ] Commando [ 55 / 60 / 10.0 ] Sentinel
Given the Scout's inherent ability bonuses and ease of use of a cloak Assaults would never really compete directly on EWAR, but they can dabble in it and catch other classes off guard.
This is wild speculations by the way and can be a nice change, there's been NO number analysis on this, just mentioning that EWAR is another field we can take into account, heck at least let us be the same as the other medium suits! lol
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
568
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 22:44:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cyrus Grevare wrote:I do kind of feel that assaults should also have slightly better ewar being like: Light [ Scout ] > Medium [ Assaut > Logistics ] > Heavy [ Commando > Sentinel ]
As it stands scouts have a monopoly on it:
BASE EWAR STATS [ Profile / Precision / Radius ] [ 35 / 40 / 20.0 ] Scout [ 50 / 50 / 10.0 ] Assault [ 50 / 45 / 15.0 ] Logistics [ 60 / 55 / 10.0 ] Commando [ 60 / 55 / 10.0 ] Sentinel
A more appealing curve taking the current scout attributes as a starting point [ 35 / 40 / 20.0 ] Scout [ 40 / 45 / 17.5 ] Assault [ 45 / 50 / 15.0 ] Logistics [ 50 / 55 / 12.5 ] Commando [ 55 / 60 / 10.0 ] Sentinel
Given the Scout's inherent ability bonuses and ease of use of a cloak Assaults would never really compete directly on EWAR, but they can dabble in it with modules and catch other classes off guard.
This is wild speculations by the way and can be a nice change, there's been NO number analysis on this, just mentioning that EWAR is another field we can take into account, heck at least let us be the same as the other medium suits! lol
Interesting idea but I don't think it would make the role any more viable than it is currently.
SMG Specialist
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Cyrus Grevare
warravens Final Resolution.
226
|
Posted - 2014.06.12 22:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:
Interesting idea but I don't think it would make the role any more viable than it is currently.
True, but I see this as something missing in addition, take for example speed, you see a very similar progression: [ Scout > Assault > Logistics > Heavy ] (I also think commandos should be faster than sentinels, but that's another topic :p)
eHP is slightly similar as well with Logis able to stack more HP than assaults.
www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
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JP Acuna
Pendejitos Zero-Day
185
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Posted - 2014.06.12 23:51:00 -
[52] - Quote
It's been said before, and i totally support it: Scouts can only go with (2) sidearms.
Firepower is something that should be far superior in the assault role, only after commandos. Otherwise, i can't think of any other way an assault will be best choice over a scout suit. Today an assault suit is only a blind, slow, clumsy scout that can't even scout: plain cannon fodder. |
Benjamin Ciscko
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
2347
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 01:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
+2% ROF bonus across the board for assault suits maybe?
Tanker/Logi
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 07:08:00 -
[54] - Quote
I see a lot of people claim scouts have the same or more hp than assaults. This is simply not true.
For example, a fully shield tanked advanced caldari assault has about 35% more hp than a fully shield tanked advanced caldari scout.
For comparison, the scout only has a 9% higher movement speed. |
Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
568
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 07:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:I see a lot of people claim scouts have the same or more hp than assaults. This is simply not true.
For example, a fully shield tanked advanced caldari assault has about 35% more hp than a fully shield tanked advanced caldari scout.
For comparison, the scout only has a 9% higher movement speed.
I frequently see scouts with more hp than my min assault (600 HP at pro usually). Yes assaults CAN out tank a scout, but the point is that the HP scouts can achieve is far to close to the average medium frame. Mix this along with better ewar and regen and speed.. Well that's why no one is using assault.
SMG Specialist
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 07:54:00 -
[56] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:I frequently see scouts with more hp than my min assault (600 HP at pro usually). Yes assaults CAN out tank a scout, but the point is that the HP scouts can achieve is far to close to the average medium frame. Mix this along with better ewar and regen and speed.. Well that's why no one is using assault. But don't you see, saying that scouts "can achieve" more hp than the "average medium frame" is not a fair comparison because you are comparing brick tanked proto suits with non-brick standard/advanced suits. Or armor tanked suits with shield tanked suits.
Considering balance is more complex than that. You need to compare equivalent tiers and similar tanking styles. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3498
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 11:58:00 -
[57] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Boot Booter wrote:I frequently see scouts with more hp than my min assault (600 HP at pro usually). Yes assaults CAN out tank a scout, but the point is that the HP scouts can achieve is far to close to the average medium frame. Mix this along with better ewar and regen and speed.. Well that's why no one is using assault. But don't you see, saying that scouts "can achieve" more hp than the "average medium frame" is not a fair comparison because you are comparing brick tanked proto suits with non-brick standard/advanced suits. Or armor tanked suits with shield tanked suits. Considering balance is more complex than that. You need to compare equivalent tiers and similar tanking styles.
My Amarr Assault runs 778 EHP, 368 shield and 410 armour. I regenerate at 20hp/s and 9.37hp/s respectively and have a recharge delay of 7s and 10s.
An Amarr Scout can be tanked in such a way as to achieve 713 EHP (220 and 493) identical armour rep (but superior shield rep) and identical movement speeds.
Its recharge delays are also superior, at 4s and 6s respectively; not having a third extender also means it doesn't have as great a penalty to depleted delay.
It also has superior EWAR stats, making it unscannable to most medium frames, has a large passive scan radius (30m vs my assault's 15m).
Its stamina regen and totals are superior even before applying the suit's bonus. It has an extra equipment slot. It has a smaller hitbox.
So, to recap. Assault suit advantages = 65 EHP. Scrambler Rifle bonus. Weapon fitting bonus.
That said, though, that weapon fitting bonus takes the ScR to 15 PG. Which is still more than an unbonused Duvolle, and almost twice as much as a CR. So I'm not really calling that much of an advantage.
Scout suit advantages: hitbox, regen, endurance, EWAR, equipment.
And Amarr Scout is widely considered the worst of the scouts, and Amarr Assault benefits from an inordinate amount of fitting capability.
Between Gallente suits, or Caldari suits, the difference is similarly stark.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
Sorry, Blowout...
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Aisha Ctarl
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
4795
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 12:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Make them more survivable, give them much greater regeneration and give them the resist bonuses like the sentinels have.
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 13:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr suit comparison
This is much better. The Amarr assault is gaining a low slot in hot fix bravo which will change things a lot. I use Amarr assaults myself and definitely agree that it needs the extra slot to be comparable to the other assaults. The bonus is awesome though.
The Amarr scout is considered to be the worst, however not because of it's lack of ability to be an assault suit but because it lacks a bonus that is helpful in the scout role.
Maybe regen (as well as base hp and cpu/pg as I have already suggested) is something else that needs adjusting for assaults and maybe scouts too. Though care would be needed as with the upcoming improvements to regulators and rechargers it would be a shame if nobody felt the need to use them.
So thanks for the proper comparison but I don't think you chose a good example considering the upcoming changes to Amarr assaults.
I still think it's a great exaggeration to say that scout suits (fitted for the assault role) have similar hp to assault suits.
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Lorhak Gannarsein
Legio DXIV
3502
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 15:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr suit comparison
This is much better. The Amarr assault is gaining a low slot in hot fix bravo which will change things a lot. I use Amarr assaults myself and definitely agree that it needs the extra slot to be comparable to the other assaults. The bonus is awesome though. The Amarr scout is considered to be the worst, however not because of it's lack of ability to be an assault suit but because it lacks a bonus that is helpful in the scout role. Maybe regen (as well as base hp and cpu/pg as I have already suggested) is something else that needs adjusting for assaults and maybe scouts too. Though care would be needed as with the upcoming improvements to regulators and rechargers it would be a shame if nobody felt the need to use them. So thanks for the proper comparison but I don't think you chose a good example considering the upcoming changes to Amarr assaults. I still think it's a great exaggeration to say that scout suits (fitted for the assault role) have similar hp to assault suits. Edit: I haven't tried recreating your fits but for a quick comparison, say you fit an extra enhanced plate in the extra slot you will get in bravo. The Amarr assault will now have approximately 26% more hp than the scout. That is not really what I would call "similar". I'm not saying assaults don't need a buff. I just think they only need a small one. I accept that it might not be that easy to just fit an extra enhanced plate, since cpu/pg won't be changed in bravo.
I could, but I'm actually fitting a repper :P
This is an example of a good buff for the assaults, IMO.
It doesn't help the other assaults, however. Gallente Scout is still better than GalAssault, and CalScout is arguably better than CalAssault.
CCP Rattati Best Dev
Sorry, Blowout...
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
569
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 15:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Amarr suit comparison
This is much better. The Amarr assault is gaining a low slot in hot fix bravo which will change things a lot. I use Amarr assaults myself and definitely agree that it needs the extra slot to be comparable to the other assaults. The bonus is awesome though. The Amarr scout is considered to be the worst, however not because of it's lack of ability to be an assault suit but because it lacks a bonus that is helpful in the scout role. Maybe regen (as well as base hp and cpu/pg as I have already suggested) is something else that needs adjusting for assaults and maybe scouts too. Though care would be needed as with the upcoming improvements to regulators and rechargers it would be a shame if nobody felt the need to use them. So thanks for the proper comparison but I don't think you chose a good example considering the upcoming changes to Amarr assaults. I still think it's a great exaggeration to say that scout suits (fitted for the assault role) have similar hp to assault suits. Edit: I haven't tried recreating your fits but for a quick comparison, say you fit an extra enhanced plate in the extra slot you will get in bravo. The Amarr assault will now have approximately 26% more hp than the scout. That is not really what I would call "similar". I'm not saying assaults don't need a buff. I just think they only need a small one. I accept that it might not be that easy to just fit an extra enhanced plate, since cpu/pg won't be changed in bravo.
Ok man listen scouts reach similar hp as assaults because they have superior regen. The hp isnt the problem. The regen is. Let's look at the caldari scout.
Caldari scout shield tanked
450 shield @ 50 hp/s, delay of 1.66, depleted delay 2.9, 88 armor
Caldari assault shield tanked version 1
550 shield at 30 hp/s, delay of 2.3 and depleted 3.6, 150 armor
Now as you said, yes the caldari assault can reach much higher hp. Look at those regeneration differences though. What if our caldari assault wants more than 30 hp/s.
Caldari assault version 2
465 shield at 50 hp/s, delay of 2.7 and depleted 4, 150 armor
Since you seem to like math, the hp difference is only around 10%. Mean while the caldari scout still has a much better shield delay, can passively scan the caldari assault, is faster, and has a smaller hitbox.
So in summary, like I said before, scouts frequently are achieving similar hp to the average assault (proto included) while still remaining better at everything else. The problem, as many people in this thread have iterated, is the ridiculous base regen of scouts. This allows them to tank as much hp as they can without drawbacks. Trust me trying to regen 550 hp at only 30 hp/s is painfully slow, especially when you are completely visiable to the scout who has already finished regenerating. And why? Why do scouts need high regeneration? They are supposed to not be seen or shot much in the first place.
SMG Specialist
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Grimmiers
592
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 16:14:00 -
[62] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Zatara Rought wrote: He didn't say 5% per level.
And I think it's quite a hasty assumption to discount the idea even if it was 5% per level until you theorycraft a fit and demonstrate why it's broken. 2 many good ideas get tossed out before they have been considered because of feedback like this.
90 on a complex would only be an increase of 54 ehp with 3 complex shield extenders.
I hardly see how that is gamebreaking.
After taking your suggestion and theorycrafing fittings, I've found that your correct and they aren't gamebreaking. Apologies for jumping the gun there. But if his proposal is not on a per level basis then it'd be worthless. Nobody's going to invest SP or use a suit that only gives them an extra 3.3HP per extender or 0.25% damage increase.
earlier post
I threw a random number bonus in my first post without doing math just to pitch an idea. The fact that there's so many more low slot modules makes it seem unfair to certain races, but it works if you're only going for tank/rep.
An assault Gk.0 would have 587 armor and 24.5 rep An assault Ck.0 ends up with 482 shields and 45.7 rep with an energizer and 3 extenders
The spreadsheet was updated with the hotfix bravo shield changes.
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lDocHollidayl
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
558
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 16:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
"Minmatar: 20% Increase to Damage Modules and 3~5% Increase to Shield Regulator Modules Per Level
Result: Minmatar Assault becomes a hit-and-run shield buffer tank with high DPS and low eHP. Minmatar assault becomes viable."
We need to remember other suits when considering changes and goals. The "hit and run" concept sounds good but remeber you can not sneak and hit and run a caldari suit or any one around that suit because they will see you.
THE SINGLE most powerful "I will beat you in war game or RL" is intel on location. Knowing where your enemy is trumps damn near everything. |
Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 16:49:00 -
[64] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote:Caldari suit comparison
I can't really argue with this. As you pointed out, whilst the assault does have more hp than the scout the difference is minimal when it tries to compete with the regen.
I do think Caldari are the main problem though, since Caldari scouts benefit so much from the high regen as well as having the best regen. The other scouts are much less of an issue following the Gallente scout nerf in alpha and the upcoming amarr assault buff in bravo (if you compare like races).
So the issue really is that Caldari scout's high regen is an assault stat that pushes the balance too far in their favour.
How about this for a balance fix then:
Give Cal and Min scout and assault suits a regen of 30hp/s and give Gal and Amarr scout and assault suits a regen of 20hp/s.
A small change like this I believe is all we need to restore balance. Maybe cpu/pg levels would need a slight tweak too as I have stated before, to overcome the fitting freedom that suits with multiple equipment enjoy if they skimp on equipment.
edit: forgot about shield delay, normalise that too. |
Bojo The Mighty
Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation
3786
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 17:21:00 -
[65] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Regeneration is an important part of the Assaulting role, and as such they should have the best regeneration when compared to their other racial suits.
I would disagree.
Regeneration is important to scouts and light frames, who should be rather running on low health high regeneration as tool of defense. Thus they should have the best regen.
A heavy should be about High HP tank, as tool of survival but at a cost have little regeneration ability.
An Assault suit needs to be the best balance of the two. An assault suit should be resilient and capable of regeneration.
The current problem is that scouts can tank all they want and still have high regen while Assaults are hindered by comparison when they tank. The fix to this is to rework armor + shields so that it would be unfavorable to run tank on scouts, regen on heavies, and purity on assaults.
Assaults should be about balanced tank and balanced regen and hypothetically fits should contain the two types of modules regen and tank at various proportions based on racial.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
569
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 17:28:00 -
[66] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Boot Booter wrote:Caldari suit comparison
I can't really argue with this. As you pointed out, whilst the assault does have more hp than the scout the difference is minimal when it tries to compete with the regen. I do think Caldari are the main problem though, since Caldari scouts benefit so much from the high regen as well as having the best regen. The other scouts are much less of an issue following the Gallente scout nerf in alpha and the upcoming amarr assault buff in bravo (if you compare like races). So the issue really is that Caldari scout's high regen is an assault stat that pushes the balance too far in their favour. How about this for a balance fix then: Give Cal and Min scout and assault suits a regen of 30hp/s and give Gal and Amarr scout and assault suits a regen of 20hp/s. A small change like this I believe is all we need to restore balance. Maybe cpu/pg levels would need a slight tweak too as I have stated before, to overcome the fitting freedom that suits with multiple equipment enjoy if they skimp on equipment. edit: forgot about shield delay, normalise that too.
Great I'm glad we are on the same page. This would be a good start but I'd like to see the scout have slightly worse regen than assaults OR normalize and provide assaults with another bonus which augments their racial fitting preference. Why?
In your scenario...
Regeneration: assault = scout HP: assault > scout Speed: assault < scout Ewar: assault < scout Damage: assault = scout
With a bonus to respective fitting like I suggest, gallente and minmatar get better regen than scouts ( assuming they normalize regen) and caldari and amarr get much greater hp than scouts with equal regen.
Thoughts?
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
569
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 17:32:00 -
[67] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Atiim wrote:Regeneration is an important part of the Assaulting role, and as such they should have the best regeneration when compared to their other racial suits.
I would disagree. Regeneration is important to scouts and light frames, who should be rather running on low health high regeneration as tool of defense. Thus they should have the best regen. A heavy should be about High HP tank, as tool of survival but at a cost have little regeneration ability. An Assault suit needs to be the best balance of the two. An assault suit should be resilient and capable of regeneration. The current problem is that scouts can tank all they want and still have high regen while Assaults are hindered by comparison when they tank. The fix to this is to rework armor + shields so that it would be unfavorable to run tank on scouts, regen on heavies, and purity on assaults. Assaults should be about balanced tank and balanced regen and hypothetically fits should contain the two types of modules regen and tank at various proportions based on racial.
Why is regen important to scouts. I thought the role of a scout was to 1) provide squad Intel and 2) assassinate high priory or lone wolf targets. Neither of these agendas require the scout to regen. The scout should have lower hp and should avoid taking fire. If the scout wants great regen they should be forced to sacrifice tank to do so. Currently they do not.
SMG Specialist
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Varoth Drac
the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.13 21:15:00 -
[68] - Quote
Well as Bojo mentioned, regen is important for scouts who are designed to operate away from their teammates and to utilise guerrilla hit and run tactics.
It is also important for assaults who need to be able to keep up the pressure on the enemy.
To be honest I was thinking equal regen would be the fairest way to go and wouldn't amount to too drastic a change all in one go, which people have said time and again causes balance problem. Also I want to encourage the use of shield regulators to prevent dual tanking.
Also Damage: assault > scout - due to the weapon bonuses.
So the picture would be more like this:
Regeneration: assault = scout HP: assault > scout Speed: assault < scout Ewar: assault < scout Damage: assault > scout
Really the thing that makes assault suits special are the weapon bonuses. I use an Amarr assault because of the heat bonus. If Minmatar assaults weren't so hard to fit I bet they would be used for the combat rifle bonus.
Maybe the Gal and Cal bonuses aren't quite strong enough to be attractive. Though I have heard good things about the Cal bonus from people who have tried it.
Personally I like the sound of the the other bonuses and would be sad if they were replaced. I think maybe they just need buffing a bit. Or people need time to realise they don't suck after other changes are made (talking about alpha, bravo and the proposed regen changes). The AR has only just been dragged out of the gutter for example. |
Bojo The Mighty
Spaceman Drug Cartel-Uno
3801
|
Posted - 2014.06.14 17:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
Boot Booter wrote: Why is regen important to scouts. I thought the role of a scout was to 1) provide squad Intel and 2) assassinate high priory or lone wolf targets. Neither of these agendas require the scout to regen. The scout should have lower hp and should avoid taking fire. If the scout wants great regen they should be forced to sacrifice tank to do so. Currently they do not.
Scouts have little starting HP. The survival philosophy of scout design was to use a suit with little HP that regenerates quickly making it very suitable for hitting and running. Scouts are about speed and regeneration is speed. The role of any suit has nothing to do with its defensive mechanisms. The role of the Assault suit is to kill but obviously no design philosophy is recognizable in that category when you look at the suit.
I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
579
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 01:31:00 -
[70] - Quote
Bojo The Mighty wrote:Boot Booter wrote: Why is regen important to scouts. I thought the role of a scout was to 1) provide squad Intel and 2) assassinate high priory or lone wolf targets. Neither of these agendas require the scout to regen. The scout should have lower hp and should avoid taking fire. If the scout wants great regen they should be forced to sacrifice tank to do so. Currently they do not.
Scouts have little starting HP. The survival philosophy of scout design was to use a suit with little HP that regenerates quickly making it very suitable for hitting and running. Scouts are about speed and regeneration is speed. The role of any suit has nothing to do with its defensive mechanisms. The role of the Assault suit is to kill but obviously no design philosophy is recognizable in that category when you look at the suit.
If the scout wants great regen they should be forced to sacrifice tank to do so. Currently they do not.
HP is important for assaults but that doesn't mean we get high base HP on our suit.
The scout regen, at least on shield tankers, is way too high and promotes tanking.
SMG Specialist
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone Psychotic Alliance
1325
|
Posted - 2014.06.16 04:58:00 -
[71] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:I've said this before, but I'll do so one last time. Give an additional bonus to each racial suit in order to increase it's survivability, and thus it's killing effectiveness.
Gallente: 3~5% Bonus to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates Per Level
Result: Gallente Assaults become an armor buffer tank who get additional eHP and repairs from reactive plates and a lot better repairs from their armor repair modules. Gallente assault becomes viable.
Amarr: 3~5% Bonus to a Armor Plates and Ferroscale Plates Per Level
Result: Amarr assaults become armor eHP tanks, basically becoming a light heavy suit with a smaller hit box. Amarr assault becomes viable
Caldari: 3~5% Bonus to Shield Extender, Recharger and Energizer Modules Per Level
Result: Caldari suits become shield eHP tanks with super fast shield regeneration. Caldari assault becomes viable.
Minmatar: 20% Increase to Damage Modules and 3~5% Increase to Shield Regulator Modules Per Level
Result: Minmatar Assault becomes a hit-and-run shield buffer tank with high DPS and low eHP. Minmatar assault becomes viable.
The Minmatar bonus is tricky because you don't want to make it tanky but you want it to be effective. Giving it a bonus to 20% damage mods brings their damage mods to 10% at level 5 instead of the current 5% at complex tier, thus helping them to make up for their ridiculously low eHP. And the regulator bonus also helps them make up for their low eHP by helping them get their shields back more quickly.
I think the other bonuses speak for themselves. This. All of this.
Calmanndo user with nova knives: Because someone has to do it.
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Spademan
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1947
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Posted - 2014.06.19 12:52:00 -
[72] - Quote
Did I win yet?
I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special.
Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
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501st Headstrong
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
229
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Posted - 2014.06.19 14:16:00 -
[73] - Quote
As a Min Assaulter since 1.4, I still find the suit hard to use, although it amazing.
I can get around 800 EPH with 537 Shields and 270 Armor
My Fit:
Six Kin Combat Rifle 'Spitfire' Six Kin Submachine Gun M1 Locus 5x Complex Shield Extenders One Basic Armor Plate One Basic Reactive A-45 Active Scanner
The problem is once my shields are gone, and they go very quickly due to no resistances, it takes the full brunt of the 35% Shield Recharge Delay, and my regen takes almost 20 seconds for my shields to come back.
Basically what I suggest is a faster regen for Assaults, but at the same time they could get a bonus to everything they run`. The Other suits are basically hardcore Assault variations. The scout, ultra-fast and stealthy assault. The Sentinel is extremely tanked out for an assault, but very slow. The Commando is a Assault-Heavy breed capable of adapting to myriad battlefield conditions. Each of them get their own bonuses, so the Assault should get over arching but small bonuses to anything they run.
Caldari: -3% Recharge Delay Reduction per level (Max running 5 complex shields takes you down to 20%), and they get plus 10% to Shield Regulators and Energizers. Shield tankers that can actually survive against a Scrambler
Gallente: +2% to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates( Someone else's suggestion). Gallente can constantly rep and keep pushing.
Minmatar: 5% Bonus to Damage Mods and -2% profile and +2% Speed per level. Encourages Matari to Flank.
Amarr: 5% to ferroscale plates and armor plates per level.
This on top of Racial Weapon Bonuses.
From the Clone Wars I came. Here, I am a man among tamed beasts, and a god...among men.- 501st Headstrong.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
3762
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 15:06:00 -
[74] - Quote
2% per level Damage buff for Assault Suits, on top of the bonuses they already have, to help define their role as a medium health DPS class.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Varoth Drac
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
128
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Posted - 2014.06.19 15:19:00 -
[75] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:2% per level Damage buff for Assault Suits, on top of the bonuses they already have, to help define their role as a medium health DPS class. I don't like damage bonus suggestions for assaults as that is a commando bonus.
I would prefer changes be made to the base suit stats rather than changes to bonuses or slot configurations.
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3420
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 15:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
Unless there is support to extend this contest we will begin voting tomorrow and entries will be closed for the isk contest.
Feel free to help us continue to propel new ideas that help assaults become unique and interesting.
It'll pretty much be 2 threads, one in general and one in the war room. People will be invited to post which idea or 2 they like. Idea that gets the 1st and 2nd most support will be declared on the 25th. I will personally be weighing in on my thoughts on each idea, proffering any lingering doubts I have about them in the posts.
Again thank you so much forum crawlers. Assaults need love. They need something that allows them to offer a position unfilled by the other roles. And we've got a lot of potential solutions! vov
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
589
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 16:02:00 -
[77] - Quote
501st Headstrong wrote:As a Min Assaulter since 1.4, I still find the suit hard to use, although it amazing.
I can get around 800 EPH with 537 Shields and 270 Armor
My Fit:
Six Kin Combat Rifle 'Spitfire' Six Kin Submachine Gun M1 Locus 5x Complex Shield Extenders One Basic Armor Plate One Basic Reactive A-45 Active Scanner
The problem is once my shields are gone, and they go very quickly due to no resistances, it takes the full brunt of the 35% Shield Recharge Delay, and my regen takes almost 20 seconds for my shields to come back.
Basically what I suggest is a faster regen for Assaults, but at the same time they could get a bonus to everything they run`. The Other suits are basically hardcore Assault variations. The scout, ultra-fast and stealthy assault. The Sentinel is extremely tanked out for an assault, but very slow. The Commando is a Assault-Heavy breed capable of adapting to myriad battlefield conditions. Each of them get their own bonuses, so the Assault should get over arching but small bonuses to anything they run.
Caldari: -3% Recharge Delay Reduction per level (Max running 5 complex shields takes you down to 20%), and they get plus 10% to Shield Regulators and Energizers. Shield tankers that can actually survive against a Scrambler
Gallente: +2% to Armor Repair Modules and Reactive Plates( Someone else's suggestion). Gallente can constantly rep and keep pushing.
Minmatar: 5% Bonus to Damage Mods and -2% profile and +2% Speed per level. Encourages Matari to Flank.
Amarr: 5% to ferroscale plates and armor plates per level.
This on top of Racial Weapon Bonuses.
Just want to tell you that the M209 is better than the six kin. Nearly the same DPS and range but way easier to fit.
I like your bonuses as well except for Caldari, they should get a bonus to shield extenders and rechargers / enigizers. Minmatar should get the regulators (assuming they fix our slot layout)
SMG Specialist
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Boot Booter
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
589
|
Posted - 2014.06.19 16:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
I have one more unique solution for the assaults based around the concept that they should have better regeneration.
First and foremost, as with my other suggestion, Caldari and Minmatar slot layout needs to be switched.
My idea is that suits gain bonuses to base stats per level. It'll encourage leveling into assault and make them viable again.
Gallente: +1 hp/s armor repair per level
Caldari: +10 to base shields per level
Amarr: +20 to base armor per level
Minmatar: -5% shield delay & depleted delay per level
Each one is about equal to an advanced module at lvl 5. This takes care of the debate about adding more slots and also directs each suit in the right direction based on race.
SMG Specialist
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Argetlam Thorson
Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance
66
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Posted - 2014.06.19 17:22:00 -
[79] - Quote
I don't think giving them a bonus to all modules would be a good idea. I think this would just push people into brick tanking assaults. While I think brick tanking should be an option, I don't think it should be encouraged.
I really like the ideas that center around regen. That wasn't something I had initially considered. This means the assault suit can be independent and can make multiple waves of push and fall back to regen. I feel like this is a good role for the assault suit, which differentiates it from the Commando (slow, high dps), the logi (needs to give up slots to regen+doesn't have the current assault suit bonuses), and scout (hit and run, needs small nerf to regen speed). If we nerf the scouts regen, that encourages them to attack lone wolfs, get ninja hacks, catch people in the back. They would generally use the hit and run tactic, which would allow scouts to rep while on the run. This should be all they need, as long as they're not playing their scout as an assault suit.
Proposal: Amarr: Innate 1 HP/s rep + 2% bonus to all plates effectiveness per level (including to the repping of reactive) Gallente: Innate 3 HP/s rep + 2% bonus to all rep module effectiveness per level Caldari: Innate 1 HP/s rep + 25% reduction to shield depleted recharge + 5% per level to Shield Extender Efficacy per level Minmitar: Innate 1 HP/s rep + 25% reduction to shield depleted recharge + 2% per level to suit movement speed or speed modules per level
*where only the last bonus of each suit is per level. The rest are suit Role Bonuses
This would make assaults capable of pushing a point, dealing DPS, and falling back to regen. The Amarr would regen less but have more tank and the Min would have less HP and regen, but the beastly movement speed to get from point to point or back behind cover. |
Bright Steel
Tears Of Wars
10
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Posted - 2014.06.19 19:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
Assault is suppose to be jack of all trades so let's make him the middle ground. I run both commando, sentinel, and scout depending on the situation building them in such a way so that they overlap.
Instead I would love an assault suit that ewared almost as good as the scout, had almost as much damage bonus as commando with a little less hp but much higher regen, and a second equipment for self support on the front lines.
If we also balance the slot layout as mentions earlier then I would love to spec assault again.
This kinda takes a little of all the ideas I have read.
Death by Minmando
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Talon Paetznick II
Gallente Federation Resistance
25
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Posted - 2014.06.20 05:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
assaults need some love so far the most viable things I see are
-more regen and base ehp -more pg/cpu -more slots -weapon modification exclusive to assaults -role bonus change
my suggestions in order of above topics -base ehp improved across the board on assaults of 15-30% regen 10-15% -pg and cpu increase of at least 25% -at least one more high and low slot for each model -two weapon modification slots that can increase ammo pool,clip size, damage, range, optics,dispersion, and fire rate -role bonuses directly connected to playstyle of suits i.e. tanking styles, detection, profile, regen, and speed associated with race as well as a resistance and damage bonus to weapons of that race
on the weapon modifications they would fall into the handheld weapons branch of the skill tree expanding upon it and allowing assaults a unique way of improving their weapons to specific playstyles
dust math:
getting killed by ion pistol = dropping the soap,useful item= nerfhammer,
protostomp= WHY GOD!!!
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Zatara Rought
General Tso's Alliance
3446
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
OKAY so I will be posting the threads today with all the suggestions. I realize i have been lax and not met my goal to have the thread up sooner. Apologies for that as I have been quite consumed.
I humbly ask you support my candidacy for CPM1
CEO of FA Skype: Zatara.Rought
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Text Grant
Death Firm. Canis Eliminatus Operatives
383
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Posted - 2014.06.24 14:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=166283&find=unread A good way to give back the assault role |
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