DUST Search - Rough Sketch of Sniper Rifle Damage Models.

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Atiim wrote:

After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic.

It's not just the charge. You're giving all of these rifles a 25-50% buff. That's a -huge- buff. Even if it were to be done it should be done in increments rather than just chucking out a massive change like that.

See, here's the thing. Look at those maps. Of those, how many are almost entirely open maps? How many allow you to see a majority of the map from a single point? How many allow you to overlook a huge swathe of the map or an objective from either the redline?

The answer is almost all of them. The Gallente Research Facility is the main map where you can't. The others that obstruct you a bit are entirely possible to get around - for example, on the orbital artillery map there are several vantage points which allow you line of sight on the A area without going anywhere near the main outpost.

The projection of the sniper rifle is huge. That's fine - it should be. However, being able to project a huge amount of power over said huge area is not so fine, especially when as a role it's one of the lowest risk playstyles in the game.

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Atiim wrote:

4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles).

Okay, you're comparing the TTK of this rifle to that of a conventional rifle.
A conventional rifle will take about half as long to kill those targets. An AR has 400 DPS, your charge SR model has about 200 (ignoring the upfront alpha potential, although that's a point in the SR's favour).

The sniper has ten times the optimal range. That's not even an exaggeration - it literally has ten times the optimal. You're not actually going to be able to use that optimal, of course, but the fact of the matter is that it has a vastly longer range. The accuracy is also pinpoint.

Let's go back to thinking about maps. This would mean that you can pin down anything on the map very effectively. Have two or three snipers? Anything can die immediately to the alpha damage. Any objective can be locked down except the ones in the research facility at that point.

And that's assuming that everything is at proto tier on the enemy team. No pub team goes entirely proto. It just doesn't happen. Said people are extremely unlikely to continue to run proto when they're getting alphaed off the field. You're doing a low risk job - but you can very easily take out protosuits while continuing at low risk with these numbers.

What if people aren't running proto?
They get OHKO'd.

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Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9190	Posted - 2014.06.07 21:47:00 - [1] - Quote Before I sprinkle my Rattai Bait over this, I wanted to see how the community viewed these changes. Sorry about taking so long, but I had some finals that grabbed my attention away from this. You can view the spreadsheet here. Now before everyone sullies their pants at the damage models, I wanted to put some notes on the logic behind these proposed damage models: [list] Normal Sniper Rifles should take 1 shot to kill a Light Frame, 2 Shots to kill a Medium Frame, and 3 Shots to kill a Heavy Frame (assuming equal tiers). The damage of the Charge Sniper Rifle is extremely high, but that is simply 2.1x the proposed damage of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle (which was done because the charge time is 2.1x that of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle). I'm also looking into clip size adjustments for the Sniper Rifle to balance this out. Tactical Sniper Rifles should take 2 Body Shots to kill a Light Frame, 3 Body Shots to kill a Medium Frame, and 4 Body Shots to kill a Sentinel. I am also looking into increased headshot multiplier to reward skillful usage of the Tactical Sniper Rifle (and other variants as well.. [list] I don't really see a problem with said logic (and apparently, 98 people don't either either); but feel free to tell me if there's anything wrong with these damage models, and how to improve them. -HAND Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9190	Posted - 2014.06.07 21:49:00 - [2] - Quote Reserved just in-case. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 533	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:05:00 - [3] - Quote So, with damage mods and a Cal Commando, a Charge Sniper Rifle will one shot any suit in the game? These numbers seem way too high. Snipers need a buff, but this seems like way too much when you add damage mods and proficiency skills. Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14206	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:07:00 - [4] - Quote Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Cat Merc Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 10188	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:10:00 - [5] - Quote A. Prototype weaponry adds 10% to damage. B. As far as your logic, I don't agree with it. The redline + hit scan = Heck no It should require headshots to consistently kill, unless you do something about redline snipers. C. wtf charged sniper rifle Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9191	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:12:00 - [6] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, with damage mods and a Cal Commando, a Charge Sniper Rifle will one shot any suit in the game? These numbers seem way too high. Snipers need a buff, but this seems like way too much when you add damage mods and proficiency skills. Well, no; not exactly. My balance model is based around eHP without skills factored in. If I were to factor in Proficency and Caldari Commando skills, I would have to factor in skills that increase your HP (such as Dropsuit Shield Upgrades and Dropsuit Armor Upgrades), which allows for a 25% Shield and 25% armor increase; which wouldn't allow your scenario to come true. (Unless s/he's using a Charge of course) If you want to counter someone with max skills, you should max your skills as well. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered. I was thinking about reducing it's clip size to 1-2. I figured that it should have extreme alpha, but be hindered with high charge times and being forced to reload after every other shot. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 534	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:17:00 - [7] - Quote Atiim wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: So, with damage mods and a Cal Commando, a Charge Sniper Rifle will one shot any suit in the game? These numbers seem way too high. Snipers need a buff, but this seems like way too much when you add damage mods and proficiency skills. Well, no; not exactly. My balance model is based around eHP without skills factored in. If I were to factor in Proficency and Caldari Commando skills, I would have to factor in skills that increase your HP (such as Dropsuit Shield Upgrades and Dropsuit Armor Upgrades), which allows for a 25% Shield and 25% armor increase; which wouldn't allow your scenario to come true. (Unless s/he's using a Charge of course) If you want to counter someone with max skills, you should max your skills as well. Right, I get that part. Just saying, a Cal Commando with Prof V would be doing 1005.64 DMG per body shot before adding damage mods. Ludicrous speed, GO! Melee Weapon of Choice: Nokia-3310 Prof. V
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14207	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:17:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered. I was thinking about reducing it's clip size to 1-2. I figured that it should have extreme alpha, but be hindered with high charge times and being forced to reload after every other shot. That doesn't matter when everything dies in one shot. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 3248	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:17:00 - [9] - Quote I'm fine with that I guess. Its alright everyone, no need to worry it's just an Amarr scout :(
LegacyofTable Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 14	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:30:00 - [10] - Quote I can agree with the STD/ADV changes, but you hit PRO and it goes through the roof. Ishukone could be put down to 340 or so, and charge could go down to around 450 and I could get behind it. Licensed Thales Hunter Total Thales taken - 10

Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9192	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:43:00 - [11] - Quote After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic. With that in mind, what does everyone thing about 475HP? It's enough to 2HK PRO Medium Frames, 3HK Sentinels, while still allowing 4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles). Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15350	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:47:00 - [12] - Quote OHK weapons should be avoided unless its in this case a head shot. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
LegacyofTable Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 14	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:48:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic. With that in mind, what does everyone thing about 475HP? It's enough to 2HK PRO Medium Frames, 3HK Sentinels, while still allowing 4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles). 100% behind it, but good luck getting Rattati to look at and consider it. (From what I see/hear on forums, they tend to overlook any changes to sniper rifles.) Licensed Thales Hunter Total Thales taken - 10
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9192	Posted - 2014.06.07 22:49:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: OHK weapons should be avoided unless its in this case a head shot. Which they are, unless your an un-tanked Light Frame. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9192	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:06:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: B. As far as your logic, I don't agree with it. The redline + hit scan = Heck no It should require headshots to consistently kill, unless you do something about redline snipers. So what your saying, is that Sniper Rifles should essentially be harder to use than other Weapons, therefore negating the appeal in using them over other weapons? Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14211	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:08:00 - [16] - Quote Atiim wrote: After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic. It's not just the charge. You're giving all of these rifles a 25-50% buff. That's a -huge- buff. Even if it were to be done it should be done in increments rather than just chucking out a massive change like that. See, here's the thing. Look at those maps. Of those, how many are almost entirely open maps? How many allow you to see a majority of the map from a single point? How many allow you to overlook a huge swathe of the map or an objective from either the redline? The answer is almost all of them. The Gallente Research Facility is the main map where you can't. The others that obstruct you a bit are entirely possible to get around - for example, on the orbital artillery map there are several vantage points which allow you line of sight on the A area without going anywhere near the main outpost. The projection of the sniper rifle is huge. That's fine - it should be. However, being able to project a huge amount of power over said huge area is not so fine, especially when as a role it's one of the lowest risk playstyles in the game. Quote: 4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles). Okay, you're comparing the TTK of this rifle to that of a conventional rifle. A conventional rifle will take about half as long to kill those targets. An AR has 400 DPS, your charge SR model has about 200 (ignoring the upfront alpha potential, although that's a point in the SR's favour). The sniper has ten times the optimal range. That's not even an exaggeration - it literally has ten times the optimal. You're not actually going to be able to use that optimal, of course, but the fact of the matter is that it has a vastly longer range. The accuracy is also pinpoint. Let's go back to thinking about maps. This would mean that you can pin down anything on the map very effectively. Have two or three snipers? Anything can die immediately to the alpha damage. Any objective can be locked down except the ones in the research facility at that point. And that's assuming that everything is at proto tier on the enemy team. No pub team goes entirely proto. It just doesn't happen. Said people are extremely unlikely to continue to run proto when they're getting alphaed off the field. You're doing a low risk job - but you can very easily take out protosuits while continuing at low risk with these numbers. What if people aren't running proto? They get OHKO'd. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 803	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:09:00 - [17] - Quote The problem isn't sniper rifles... the problem is that damage from burst weaponry is too potent, this causes a need for better health modules (shield armor etc) which then results in snipers being forced lower and lower on the balance scales because of these things. As of right now, the only weapons that have a "fair fight" window are the scrambler rifle, and STD snipers. The damage output being too high and the armor stacking being too intense to counter the damage output practically forces snipers to be in a one-hit kill scenario for many medium and all light suits because the windows of functionality are being slammed shut by these problems. Fixing sniper rifles requires fixing all the other guns in the game, then the armor, and then, you can finally see how the alpha damage works... or was intended to work. One hit kills from such a range are not appropriate, unless they are headshots.. The only way I can think of to balance out damage without poking everything else might be to increase headshot damage taken by 2-4% for every armor or shield extender you have equipped. This would lead to other issues, unless it can be exclusive to sniper rifles. Why? This would effectively eliminate "tanking snipers" because their extra incoming head damage would offset the modules, and potentially make it not really worth it to hide and tank with a heavy suit, unless it was your preference. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust, theme
Michael Arck 4623	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:12:00 - [18] - Quote Yea 98 people don't have a problem till their heads get shot off. I see the scanner thing happening again. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 15351	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:18:00 - [19] - Quote Reduce Range. Increase Damage. Adjust Magazine Size. CPM 0 Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior, Annoying Artist \\= Advanced Gallente Logistics =// Unlocked
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14212	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:22:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Reduce Range. This suggestion will be met by calls for crucifixion by some, and I don't really understand why. It prevents people from sitting in the redline (and gaining a very potent protective crutch) and abusing high powered weaponry, encourages people to go down into the combat zone to find better spots, and allows a higher reward for higher risk usage. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.

Michael Arck 4624	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:27:00 - [21] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Reduce Range. This suggestion will be met by calls for crucifixion by some, and I don't really understand why. It prevents people from sitting in the redline (and gaining a very potent protective crutch) and abusing high powered weaponry, encourages people to go down into the combat zone to find better spots, and allows a higher reward for higher risk usage. And that's what I am exactly afraid of Arkena when reading about the suggestions in the OP. Then it will be FOTM. Then they will complain. Then it will be changed again. Then I will look and wonder why we even wasted time playing with the thought. Reduced range sounds good but like you said, people will want to hang IWS for that. But who cares? It's only right and balanced. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1525	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:28:00 - [22] - Quote Why would you reduce range..... Its supost to be the longest ranged sniper.... Delt for CPM1 Moss-delt on skype
LegacyofTable Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 15	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:30:00 - [23] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Why would you reduce range..... Its supost to be the longest ranged sniper.... Probably because people are tired of redline snipers. Licensed Thales Hunter Total Thales taken - 10
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14212	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:31:00 - [24] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Why would you reduce range..... Its supost to be the longest ranged sniper.... Because the redline breaks any potential risk/reward balance, and the only thing having such a long range accomplishes is allowing people to sit deep in it whilst using a sniper. Reducing the range forces people out of the redline, increasing the risk and allowing reward (the effectiveness of the weapon) to be increased. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Michael Arck 4624	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:33:00 - [25] - Quote Mossellia Delt wrote: Why would you reduce range..... Its supost to be the longest ranged sniper.... Indeed. But we must consider people who will just exploit it to ruin the gameplay of others. We all been here before. New thing introduced and everybody flocks in droves to it. Just imagine the battles! 6 or 8 mercs fighting over the objectives while the rest of the teams are fighting over headshots of the mercs who are fighting over the objective. It would impact the game in a negative way if range isn't reduced but the damage is increased. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Michael Arck 4624	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:36:00 - [26] - Quote Just a thought, if there is no range reduction and the damage increased. Then I would definitely like to see CCP Rattati's suggestion of the redline changes to compensate for this. CCP Rattati wrote: Honestly, I don't know what exactly can be done, so take this with a grain of salt. I would just want to not grant WP and kills instigating from within the redline. It could still be a safe haven to flee into or rearrange forces to breakout of the redline. EZ mode Thaling and Railing would be possible, just not rewarded in any way. Archistrategos *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain*
Your Absolut End Escrow Removal and Acquisition Dirt Nap Squad. 571	Posted - 2014.06.07 23:39:00 - [27] - Quote I'm totally against any changes on sniper rifles till redline sniping is fixed. I'm a big fan of a risk/reward system, so sitting in the redline with your thales in a heavy frame should not be rewarded AT ALL. No risk=no reward. I don't have a problem with snipers in general, as long as they have to take time and effort to find a tactical position OUTSIDE THE REDLINE.
Shley Ashes Commando Perkone Caldari State 154	Posted - 2014.06.08 00:02:00 - [28] - Quote This is a terrible idea whilst the redline is still where you find almost all snipers, If you could move these snipers out of the redline even then I'd personally have a hard time agreeing that snipers rifles need more damage unless you balanced accordingly, you could reduce the clip size dramatically and for the damage you want on the charge you would probably have to double if not triple the charge time because the damage coming out of that could be ridiculous. Snipers still kill people from the safety of the "Redline" until this is not the case, the sniper rifle's should stay as they are, I would even go as far to say that whilst they have that range and safety reduce their damage. When ALL snipers are in the combat area(burnzone?) with everyone else start discussing possible buffs. For 21 day EveOnline trial https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=0f1324bf-679c-420a-b7ed-c181423c1369&action=buddy
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9193	Posted - 2014.06.08 00:21:00 - [29] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Atiim wrote: After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic. It's not just the charge. You're giving all of these rifles a 25-50% buff. That's a -huge- buff. Even if it were to be done it should be done in increments rather than just chucking out a massive change like that. See, here's the thing. Look at those maps. Of those, how many are almost entirely open maps? How many allow you to see a majority of the map from a single point? How many allow you to overlook a huge swathe of the map or an objective from either the redline? The answer is almost all of them. The Gallente Research Facility is the main map where you can't. The others that obstruct you a bit are entirely possible to get around - for example, on the orbital artillery map there are several vantage points which allow you line of sight on the A area without going anywhere near the main outpost. The projection of the sniper rifle is huge. That's fine - it should be. However, being able to project a huge amount of power over said huge area is not so fine, especially when as a role it's one of the lowest risk playstyles in the game. There's no problem with the percentage of the buff as long as the values that result from the high percentage are reasonable. For example, let's take a weapon, and call it Weapon X. Weapon X only deals 5 damage per shot. In order to be competitive with other weapons, such as Weapon Y and Weapon Z, Weapon X needs to deal 15 damage per shot. Would you buff it to 15HP, despite that being a 300% buiff? As for a Sniper locking down an area, is that not their job? Area denial and suppression? I see no problem with a Sniper being able to lock down an area of the map, because there is nothing stoping someone from killing the enemy sniper locking down the map. If you refuse to take the measures necessary to counter someone, you deserve to be slaughtered by them repeatedly. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Atiim wrote: 4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles). Okay, you're comparing the TTK of this rifle to that of a conventional rifle. A conventional rifle will take about half as long to kill those targets. An AR has 400 DPS, your charge SR model has about 200 (ignoring the upfront alpha potential, although that's a point in the SR's favour). The sniper has ten times the optimal range. That's not even an exaggeration - it literally has ten times the optimal. You're not actually going to be able to use that optimal, of course, but the fact of the matter is that it has a vastly longer range. The accuracy is also pinpoint. Let's go back to thinking about maps. This would mean that you can pin down anything on the map very effectively. Have two or three snipers? Anything can die immediately to the alpha damage. Any objective can be locked down except the ones in the research facility at that point. And that's assuming that everything is at proto tier on the enemy team. No pub team goes entirely proto. It just doesn't happen. Said people are extremely unlikely to continue to run proto when they're getting alphaed off the field. You're doing a low risk job - but you can very easily take out protosuits while continuing at low risk with these numbers. What if people aren't running proto? They get OHKO'd. No, I'm not trying to compare them to Conventional Rifles. I'm putting emphasis on the fact that 4-6s is an extremely generous amount of time to avoid death. Should that not be the case? If a team or squad decides to dedicate 3 players to a task, should they not be extremely effective? Every other item/role (and i do mean every) becomes ridiculously effective when 3 or more players dedicate themselves to the same task; and I don't see why Snipers shouldn't be any different. Which again, isn't a problem because nothing stops you from hunting the sniper(s) and killing them, thus freeing the area/objective for you and your team. STD/ADV frames won't be OHKed either. A STD Assault Suit can easily 400 eHP (more than the proposed damage of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle). The only thing they could possibly be OHKed by is the Charge Sniper Rifle, and that's only if your running a STD Medium Frame or non-tanked Light Frame. Low Risk meaning what exactly? The only time Sniping could ever be considered "low risk" is when your either in the redline, or when your enemies refuse to search for you (which is in no way a problem). Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9193	Posted - 2014.06.08 00:22:00 - [30] - Quote Michael Arck wrote: Just a thought, if there is no range reduction and the damage increased. Then I would definitely like to see CCP Rattati's suggestion of the redline changes to compensate for this. CCP Rattati wrote: Honestly, I don't know what exactly can be done, so take this with a grain of salt. I would just want to not grant WP and kills instigating from within the redline. It could still be a safe haven to flee into or rearrange forces to breakout of the redline. EZ mode Thaling and Railing would be possible, just not rewarded in any way. I agree with this. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub. -HAND



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