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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14206
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Posted - 2014.06.07 22:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14207
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Posted - 2014.06.07 22:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered. I was thinking about reducing it's clip size to 1-2. I figured that it should have extreme alpha, but be hindered with high charge times and being forced to reload after every other shot.
That doesn't matter when everything dies in one shot.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14211
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Posted - 2014.06.07 23:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Atiim wrote:After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic.
It's not just the charge. You're giving all of these rifles a 25-50% buff. That's a -huge- buff. Even if it were to be done it should be done in increments rather than just chucking out a massive change like that.
See, here's the thing. Look at those maps. Of those, how many are almost entirely open maps? How many allow you to see a majority of the map from a single point? How many allow you to overlook a huge swathe of the map or an objective from either the redline?
The answer is almost all of them. The Gallente Research Facility is the main map where you can't. The others that obstruct you a bit are entirely possible to get around - for example, on the orbital artillery map there are several vantage points which allow you line of sight on the A area without going anywhere near the main outpost.
The projection of the sniper rifle is huge. That's fine - it should be. However, being able to project a huge amount of power over said huge area is not so fine, especially when as a role it's one of the lowest risk playstyles in the game.
Quote:
4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles).
Okay, you're comparing the TTK of this rifle to that of a conventional rifle.
A conventional rifle will take about half as long to kill those targets. An AR has 400 DPS, your charge SR model has about 200 (ignoring the upfront alpha potential, although that's a point in the SR's favour).
The sniper has ten times the optimal range. That's not even an exaggeration - it literally has ten times the optimal. You're not actually going to be able to use that optimal, of course, but the fact of the matter is that it has a vastly longer range. The accuracy is also pinpoint.
Let's go back to thinking about maps. This would mean that you can pin down anything on the map very effectively. Have two or three snipers? Anything can die immediately to the alpha damage. Any objective can be locked down except the ones in the research facility at that point.
And that's assuming that everything is at proto tier on the enemy team. No pub team goes entirely proto. It just doesn't happen. Said people are extremely unlikely to continue to run proto when they're getting alphaed off the field. You're doing a low risk job - but you can very easily take out protosuits while continuing at low risk with these numbers.
What if people aren't running proto?
They get OHKO'd.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14212
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Posted - 2014.06.07 23:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Reduce Range.
This suggestion will be met by calls for crucifixion by some, and I don't really understand why.
It prevents people from sitting in the redline (and gaining a very potent protective crutch) and abusing high powered weaponry, encourages people to go down into the combat zone to find better spots, and allows a higher reward for higher risk usage.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14212
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Posted - 2014.06.07 23:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mossellia Delt wrote:Why would you reduce range.....
Its supost to be the longest ranged sniper....
Because the redline breaks any potential risk/reward balance, and the only thing having such a long range accomplishes is allowing people to sit deep in it whilst using a sniper.
Reducing the range forces people out of the redline, increasing the risk and allowing reward (the effectiveness of the weapon) to be increased.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14221
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Posted - 2014.06.08 09:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Atiim wrote:
There's no problem with the percentage of the buff as long as the values that result from the high percentage are reasonable. For example, let's take a weapon, and call it Weapon X.
Weapon X only deals 5 damage per shot. In order to be competitive with other weapons, such as Weapon Y and Weapon Z, Weapon X needs to deal 15 damage per shot. Would you buff it to 15HP, despite that being a 300% buiff?
Nothing has ever needed a 50% buff to be competitive. Not even the plasma cannon got that much of a buff.
The sniper rifle is not so incredibly poor that it needs such a ludicrous buff - such a high percentage would suggest that it's not as usable as the old plasma cannon, which is completely untrue.
Snipers are still in fairly common usage. I ran a sniping squad just yesterday and had great success because almost every map is absolutely perfect for sniping. Domination maps in particular are subject to easy mode sniping as everyone gets concentrated around a single point - which is often in open ground.
Quote:
As for a Sniper locking down an area, is that not their job? Area denial and suppression? I see no problem with a Sniper being able to lock down an area of the map, because there is nothing stoping someone from killing the enemy sniper locking down the map. If you refuse to take the measures necessary to counter someone, you deserve to be slaughtered by them repeatedly.
Suppressing an area a bit?
Yes.
Rendering a very large area completely unusable for enemy infantry?
No.
I like how you go on about countering snipers all the time as well. Okay, here's how I'd run a squad if there were insane sniping numbers. Two breach forgers. They can sit in the redline. Four charge snipers. They can sit in assorted positions behind the redline.
How do you counter this? ADS? Nope, dead. Snipers? Something being the only counter to itself is inherently broken. The redline protects from a huge number of threats - while snipers can remain in the redline and keep their risk so low, they shouldn't get a huge reward.
Quote:
No, I'm not trying to compare them to Conventional Rifles. I'm putting emphasis on the fact that 4-6s is an extremely generous amount of time to avoid death.
It's not even 4-6s though. Your proposed Ishukone will kill almost everything in three shots or less - three seconds or less. The charge sniper has such an alpha damage if you don't OHKO you get massive alpha, and then two seconds later you can deliver the killing shot. The Kaalakiota will probably take four or fewer. You're getting kills in similar amounts of time to conventional rifles.
Quote:
Should that not be the case? If a team or squad decides to dedicate 3 players to a task, should they not be extremely effective? Every other item/role (and i do mean every) becomes ridiculously effective when 3 or more players dedicate themselves to the same task; and I don't see why Snipers shouldn't be any different.
Which again, isn't a problem because nothing stops you from hunting the sniper(s) and killing them, thus freeing the area/objective for you and your team.
Extremely effective to the point where they can completely prevent any player on the enemy team outside of a tank from going anywhere? No.
The redline prevents you from going and killing the snipers. Quite effectively, I might add - snipers and ADSes are the only things which can really tackle deep redline snipers.
Quote:
STD/ADV frames won't be OHKed either. A STD Assault Suit can easily 400 eHP (more than the proposed damage of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle). The only thing they could possibly be OHKed by is the Charge Sniper Rifle, and that's only if your running a STD Medium Frame or non-tanked Light Frame.
Low Risk meaning what exactly? The only time Sniping could ever be considered "low risk" is when your either in the redline, or when your enemies refuse to search for you (which is in no way a problem).
A 400 eHP assault would be OHKOed by the Ishukone if the user wasn't wielding it raw, with no proficiencies or damage mods or commando bonuses, which is unlikely. Actually, the Ishukone would likely OHKO said assault because of the skew towards armour damage, and chances are that assault has more HP in armour than shields. A triple damage modded commando would be hitting nearly 500 a shot with an Ishukone, disregarding proficiency bonuses against armour. That'll OHKO a lot of ADV frames unless they're bricked to high heaven - if they are, it'll take a double tap, which will take about a second.
More DPS than a conventional rifle, except being able to deal that with pinpoint accuracy from miles away when most maps are hugely open? Yeah, there's a problem there.
Low risk meaning you are less likely to die.
Suggesting that it's not low-risk is untrue - the probability of dying is much lower than infantry attempting to contest an objective. Sniping from towers or the redline reduces that risk further - but even if you're not, the risk of death is lower than in most other roles.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14255
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Posted - 2014.06.08 17:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Foo Fighting wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Unless said snipers are complete mouthbreathers This gets my vote for the funniest phrase ever written on the forums.
Help me bring it into common usage. 
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14261
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
Atiim wrote:
75% (80% if you include the SL's homing feature as "hitscan") of the weapons in this game are "hit-scan easy mode weapons". I don't see a problem with Sniper Rifles being a part of the 75% and you haven't supplied a good reason as to why they shouldn't be. Not to mention that removing it's hit-scan feature requires a client-side update, which is not a possibility.
SL isn't anything even remotely like hitscan, do you even know what hitscan is?
The problem is that you are suggesting SRs which are hitscan, have a 600m range (enough to hit anywhere on the map), huge power projection, able to be used from the highly protective redline, and that are able to either OHKO or kill targets as quick or quicker than conventional rifles.
Theoretical (and entirely plausible situation): You have a Calmando with a Ishukone SR. Said SR will now do over 400 damage per shot.
A double tap from this will kill anything that isn't a tanked heavy.
You see a target. You fire a shot. First shot done. How long does the target have to react before they get killed by the follow-up?
One second.
Given the up-front alpha potential, this SR is doing more DPS than a 1.7 boundless combat rifle. From several hundred metres away. With pinpoint accuracy. You only need a body shot to get the kills.
You can do this from the redline and still have an overview of the majority of the map. From there, the only things that can counter you are other snipers or vehicles.
Do you honestly not see the problem with this?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14266
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Posted - 2014.06.08 19:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
Atiim wrote:
Yes, I know what "hitscan" is. It's a weapon that's projectile has no travel time, as it's hit is "registered" instantaneously.
I see no problem with being killed with a double tap, with the 1s reaction time. Not only is the human reaction time much faster than 1s, a suit that's not a Sentinel can easily strafe, hop, and/or jump to cover to avoid shots from the Sniper Rifle, preventing them from being killed by a follow-up shot.
The only foreseeable problem I agree with here is the redline, and there are several solutions to that problem.
You see no problem with a faster TTK than HMGs? Really?
Perhaps we should undo all the rifle nerfs then. Hell, give them buffs. If 1s TTK is alright for a weapon that can project across entire maps with minimal risk to the user, then clearly everything else is horrendously underpowered.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14323
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Posted - 2014.06.09 19:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Ryme Intrinseca wrote:CCP Rattati, in rifle discussion in features section wrote:3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps This is the start and end of any discussion about sniper rifle damage output. He was referring to Conventional Rifles. If you feel that the same principle applies to niche rifles, then I'd expect you to capmaign for a Laser Rifle nerf as well considering how it out-ranges most Anti-Infantry Weapons, and has a DPS higher than nearly all of them.
Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
14324
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Posted - 2014.06.09 20:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m.
No, not really. The TTK of an HMG lies at about .5-1s for anything other than another Heavy frame due to it having a DPS of 700HP/s (at STD); while: A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 3s TTK
A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 2s TTK
The SR's damage is front loaded. You will fire one shot, then fire the second later. Because of the alpha damage, that means a DPS spike (if we're looking at it purely in terms of DPS).
Let me fix that table for you.
A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 1s TTK
A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 1s TTK
A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 1s TTK
A fully bricked standard assault suit will die in one second to your proposed standard sniper.
Hey, let's take this to proto:
When absolutely, fully bricked, all complex tanking modules in every slot vs a properly set up Ishukone SR, you get the following. Let's ignore the fact that absolutely nobody including the worst of bads fits this way because you can't fit anything else at all if you spend that much PG/CPU on tank for now. A correctly set up Ishukone SR under your proposed numbers can hit upwards of 450, ignoring proficiency and armour bonuses (it's worth noting that this would OHKO all but the Galassault if used against those if we applied those conditions, becoming a ludicrously efficient pubstomping tool).
A PRO Gallente assault can reach 1224 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK (When set up like this, by the way, it can't actually fit a weapon and is over maximum fitting requirements).
A PRO Amarr assault can reach 1113 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
A PRO Caldari assault can reach 1148 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK (also can't fit anything else)
A PRO Minmatar assault can reach 1016 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
How fast will the HMG kill these? In a shade under two seconds, generally. -If- every round hits, which simply doesn't happen with the HMG spread.
If those suits aren't bricked to the absolute maximum? A number of common proto fits will drop down to 1s TTK. That ends up faster than the HMG at those levels because of the alpha damage you're putting out.
Comparable TTK to a HMG on a weapon that can cover half the map? Do you seriously believe that's reasonable? On probably the lowest risk role in the game second only to the redline railtank?
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
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