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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9190
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Posted - 2014.06.07 21:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Before I sprinkle my Rattai Bait over this, I wanted to see how the community viewed these changes. Sorry about taking so long, but I had some finals that grabbed my attention away from this.
You can view the spreadsheet here.
Now before everyone sullies their pants at the damage models, I wanted to put some notes on the logic behind these proposed damage models:
[list]
Normal Sniper Rifles should take 1 shot to kill a Light Frame, 2 Shots to kill a Medium Frame, and 3 Shots to kill a Heavy Frame (assuming equal tiers).
The damage of the Charge Sniper Rifle is extremely high, but that is simply 2.1x the proposed damage of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle (which was done because the charge time is 2.1x that of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle). I'm also looking into clip size adjustments for the Sniper Rifle to balance this out.
Tactical Sniper Rifles should take 2 Body Shots to kill a Light Frame, 3 Body Shots to kill a Medium Frame, and 4 Body Shots to kill a Sentinel. I am also looking into increased headshot multiplier to reward skillful usage of the Tactical Sniper Rifle (and other variants as well..
[list]
I don't really see a problem with said logic (and apparently, 98 people don't either either); but feel free to tell me if there's anything wrong with these damage models, and how to improve them.
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Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9190
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Posted - 2014.06.07 21:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reserved just in-case.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9191
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Posted - 2014.06.07 22:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:So, with damage mods and a Cal Commando, a Charge Sniper Rifle will one shot any suit in the game?
These numbers seem way too high. Snipers need a buff, but this seems like way too much when you add damage mods and proficiency skills.
Well, no; not exactly.
My balance model is based around eHP without skills factored in. If I were to factor in Proficency and Caldari Commando skills, I would have to factor in skills that increase your HP (such as Dropsuit Shield Upgrades and Dropsuit Armor Upgrades), which allows for a 25% Shield and 25% armor increase; which wouldn't allow your scenario to come true. (Unless s/he's using a Charge of course)
If you want to counter someone with max skills, you should max your skills as well.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Charge sniper rifle here is absurdly overpowered.
I was thinking about reducing it's clip size to 1-2.
I figured that it should have extreme alpha, but be hindered with high charge times and being forced to reload after every other shot.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9192
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Posted - 2014.06.07 22:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic.
With that in mind, what does everyone thing about 475HP? It's enough to 2HK PRO Medium Frames, 3HK Sentinels, while still allowing 4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles).
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9192
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Posted - 2014.06.07 22:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:OHK weapons should be avoided unless its in this case a head shot.
Which they are, unless your an un-tanked Light Frame.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9192
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Posted - 2014.06.07 23:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
B. As far as your logic, I don't agree with it.
The redline + hit scan = Heck no
It should require headshots to consistently kill, unless you do something about redline snipers.
So what your saying, is that Sniper Rifles should essentially be harder to use than other Weapons, therefore negating the appeal in using them over other weapons?
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9193
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Posted - 2014.06.08 00:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Atiim wrote:After taking a second look here, I will agree that the Charge Sniper Rifle's damage would be problematic. It's not just the charge. You're giving all of these rifles a 25-50% buff. That's a -huge- buff. Even if it were to be done it should be done in increments rather than just chucking out a massive change like that. See, here's the thing. Look at those maps. Of those, how many are almost entirely open maps? How many allow you to see a majority of the map from a single point? How many allow you to overlook a huge swathe of the map or an objective from either the redline? The answer is almost all of them. The Gallente Research Facility is the main map where you can't. The others that obstruct you a bit are entirely possible to get around - for example, on the orbital artillery map there are several vantage points which allow you line of sight on the A area without going anywhere near the main outpost. The projection of the sniper rifle is huge. That's fine - it should be. However, being able to project a huge amount of power over said huge area is not so fine, especially when as a role it's one of the lowest risk playstyles in the game.
There's no problem with the percentage of the buff as long as the values that result from the high percentage are reasonable. For example, let's take a weapon, and call it Weapon X.
Weapon X only deals 5 damage per shot. In order to be competitive with other weapons, such as Weapon Y and Weapon Z, Weapon X needs to deal 15 damage per shot. Would you buff it to 15HP, despite that being a 300% buiff?
As for a Sniper locking down an area, is that not their job? Area denial and suppression? I see no problem with a Sniper being able to lock down an area of the map, because there is nothing stoping someone from killing the enemy sniper locking down the map. If you refuse to take the measures necessary to counter someone, you deserve to be slaughtered by them repeatedly.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Atiim wrote:
4.2s-6.3s before death (which is generous considering the current TTK of Conventional Rifles).
Okay, you're comparing the TTK of this rifle to that of a conventional rifle. A conventional rifle will take about half as long to kill those targets. An AR has 400 DPS, your charge SR model has about 200 (ignoring the upfront alpha potential, although that's a point in the SR's favour). The sniper has ten times the optimal range. That's not even an exaggeration - it literally has ten times the optimal. You're not actually going to be able to use that optimal, of course, but the fact of the matter is that it has a vastly longer range. The accuracy is also pinpoint. Let's go back to thinking about maps. This would mean that you can pin down anything on the map very effectively. Have two or three snipers? Anything can die immediately to the alpha damage. Any objective can be locked down except the ones in the research facility at that point. And that's assuming that everything is at proto tier on the enemy team. No pub team goes entirely proto. It just doesn't happen. Said people are extremely unlikely to continue to run proto when they're getting alphaed off the field. You're doing a low risk job - but you can very easily take out protosuits while continuing at low risk with these numbers. What if people aren't running proto? They get OHKO'd.
No, I'm not trying to compare them to Conventional Rifles. I'm putting emphasis on the fact that 4-6s is an extremely generous amount of time to avoid death.
Should that not be the case? If a team or squad decides to dedicate 3 players to a task, should they not be extremely effective? Every other item/role (and i do mean every) becomes ridiculously effective when 3 or more players dedicate themselves to the same task; and I don't see why Snipers shouldn't be any different.
Which again, isn't a problem because nothing stops you from hunting the sniper(s) and killing them, thus freeing the area/objective for you and your team.
STD/ADV frames won't be OHKed either. A STD Assault Suit can easily 400 eHP (more than the proposed damage of the Ishukone Sniper Rifle). The only thing they could possibly be OHKed by is the Charge Sniper Rifle, and that's only if your running a STD Medium Frame or non-tanked Light Frame.
Low Risk meaning what exactly? The only time Sniping could ever be considered "low risk" is when your either in the redline, or when your enemies refuse to search for you (which is in no way a problem).
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9193
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Posted - 2014.06.08 00:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Just a thought, if there is no range reduction and the damage increased. Then I would definitely like to see CCP Rattati's suggestion of the redline changes to compensate for this. CCP Rattati wrote:Honestly, I don't know what exactly can be done, so take this with a grain of salt. I would just want to not grant WP and kills instigating from within the redline. It could still be a safe haven to flee into or rearrange forces to breakout of the redline. EZ mode Thaling and Railing would be possible, just not rewarded in any way.
I agree with this.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9202
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Posted - 2014.06.08 04:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Atiim, shouldn't these be skill-shot weapons? Headshots for the win?
Yes, they should, and will. Headshots and skillful use will still be rewarded in the sense that it'll grant you an OHK, which can be very critical in PC matches or when shooting "targets of interest ".
Due to the size & shape of the reticule however, balancing around headshots would only be viable if you either use KB/M for sniping, or snipe in <150m of your targets; in which case a Rail Rifle would be of much better service.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9203
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Posted - 2014.06.08 04:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Hmmm. I mean no disrespect, but do you use Sniper Rifles or Rail Rifles?
Though I claim no expertise, I'm Proficiency V in RR and III in SR and your statement above does not compute.
If you've yet to consult a subject matter expert on Sniping, I'd highly recommend getting in touch with Tyjus Vacca.
o7
Umm.. Both?
Not too sure what the second part of your reply is referring too..
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9203
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Posted - 2014.06.08 04:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:
Have you ever seen what a bullet traveling at 7200m/s does? Like the Rail Rifle?
Or how about superheated plasma fired at a rapid rate melting it's target?
It's a game, comparing it to real life doesn't work.
Go play Arma if you want realism.
It should also be mentioned that an 80GJ Railgun would quite level the entire map. Which then again, would be an effective way of dealing with the terrain issues.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Your friendly neighborhood Swarm Scrub.
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9223
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Posted - 2014.06.08 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:How can anyone think damage on snipers needs increasing? You already one shot the vast majority of suits with a Thales or charge SR headshot. If you're not getting headshots learn2aim.
Hmm...
Perhaps it's because not everyone has a Thale's TAR-07 and the Charge Sniper Rifle shouldn't be the only viable sniper rifle? Or maybe it's because in the average engagement range the reticule is bigger than the target, making headshots far more difficult than they should be on DS3?
Being able to get kills only when hitting the weakspot of the target wasn't a good idea/argument when tankers used it, and for reasons I've mentioned in the past it isn't a good one now.
Dare I say people are starting to resort to 'Tanker's Logic' in this thread? 
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9232
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:
If by 'Tanker's Logic' you mean 'I should deal massive damage to all infantry by spraying in their general direction from hundreds of metres away, while being invulnerable to anything except another [tank/sniper]', I agree...
No by 'Tanker's Logic' I mean "An [AVer/Sniper] should be forced to shoot me in the [fuel cell/head] if they want a kill".
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9232
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:30:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:
So the right response to these issues is to buff the ever loving Christ out of them?
Seems like you're totally barking up the wrong tree here.
Essentially, yes. Based on a survey taken by 98 players, a Sniper Rifle needs to 1HK Light Frames, 2HK Medium Frames, and 3HK Heavy Frames. This damage model will bring that to a reality.
Those issues aren't ever going to be addressed in DUST 514 anyways.
Sole Fenychs wrote:Currently, sniper rifles have situational use.
They are very effective when people are camping the tops of structures.
This ability should be retained.
However, they are also hitscan easymode weapons, with what amounts to a random chance at successful headshots on a controller. Any buff would require them to not be hitscan and buffing headshots would just make them extremely random. Headshots already OHK many players.
And, seriously, OHKs? Are you drunk?
If the rilfes were buffed like that, I'd cram out my proto sniper fit and murder everyone for the entire match. After a week the last few remaining players would disappear - At least tanks gave you the feeling that you might be able to fight back and actually allowed you to capture the objectives. Try doing that when each team has ten snipers. Each match would end from clone depletion with uncapped objectives and we'd lose even more players.
Do you even know how frustrating that would be? It's already obnoxious enough to constantly die from random attacks from fuckall nowhere.
Currently, sniper rifles are flat-out broken and buffing them would just ruin the game even more than it already is.
75% (80% if you include the SL's homing feature as "hitscan") of the weapons in this game are "hit-scan easy mode weapons". I don't see a problem with Sniper Rifles being a part of the 75% and you haven't supplied a good reason as to why they shouldn't be. Not to mention that removing it's hit-scan feature requires a client-side update, which is not a possibility.
"Something being extremely random" is not a reason as to why something shouldn't be buffed, but okay. Though I may be guilty of misinterpreting that part. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Unless your fighting an un-tanked Light Frame, you won't be OHK'ing anything. You may want to take a look at the actual damage model before replying. Though if the hostile team has 10 snipers, you should make an effort to kill the 10 snipers. It wouldn't even be remotely frustrating if you know where to find the sniper, which again is not a problem.
Sniper Rifles aren't any more broken than any other niche weapon in DUST 514.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9232
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Posted - 2014.06.08 18:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Because the redline breaks any potential risk/reward balance, and the only thing having such a long range accomplishes is allowing people to sit deep in it whilst using a sniper.
Reducing the range forces people out of the redline, increasing the risk and allowing reward (the effectiveness of the weapon) to be increased.
However reducing the range of the Sniper Rifle runs the risk of eliminating vantage points outside of the redline.
I prefer CCP Ratatti's solution, as it removes the reward in redline sniping, causing you to risk your life if you want a reward; which will solve the risk/reward problem of redline sniping, while also allowing Snipers to keep their range.
Though this could easily be abused by simply sniping right outside the redline, then jumping back into it when in danger. A simple solution to this would be making the the WP loss area spread over an area slightly past the redline.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9232
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Posted - 2014.06.08 19:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
SL isn't anything even remotely like hitscan, do you even know what hitscan is?
The problem is that you are suggesting SRs which are hitscan, have a 600m range (enough to hit anywhere on the map), huge power projection, able to be used from the highly protective redline, and that are able to either OHKO or kill targets as quick or quicker than conventional rifles.
Theoretical (and entirely plausible situation): You have a Calmando with a Ishukone SR. Said SR will now do over 400 damage per shot.
A double tap from this will kill anything that isn't a tanked heavy.
You see a target. You fire a shot. First shot done. How long does the target have to react before they get killed by the follow-up?
One second.
Given the up-front alpha potential, this SR is doing more DPS than a 1.7 boundless combat rifle. From several hundred metres away. With pinpoint accuracy. You only need a body shot to get the kills.
You can do this from the redline and still have an overview of the majority of the map. From there, the only things that can counter you are other snipers or vehicles.
Do you honestly not see the problem with this?
Yes, I know what "hitscan" is. It's a weapon that's projectile has no travel time, as it's hit is "registered" instantaneously.
I see no problem with being killed with a double tap, with the 1s reaction time. Not only is the human reaction time much faster than 1s, a suit that's not a Sentinel can easily strafe, hop, and/or jump to cover to avoid shots from the Sniper Rifle, preventing them from being killed by a follow-up shot.
The only foreseeable problem I agree with here is the redline, and there are several solutions to that problem.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical.
Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9269
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Posted - 2014.06.09 19:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ryme Intrinseca wrote:CCP Rattati, in rifle discussion in features section wrote:3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps This is the start and end of any discussion about sniper rifle damage output.
He was referring to Conventional Rifles.
If you feel that the same principle applies to niche rifles, then I'd expect you to capmaign for a Laser Rifle nerf as well considering how it out-ranges most Anti-Infantry Weapons, and has a DPS higher than nearly all of them.
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
I've run out of stuff to spec into :(
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Atiim
Heaven's Lost Property
9269
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Posted - 2014.06.09 20:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:
Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m.
No, not really. The TTK of an HMG lies at about .5-1s for anything other than another Heavy frame due to it having a DPS of 700HP/s (at STD); while:
- A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 3s TTK
- A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
- A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK
- A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 2s TTK
((Assuming STD Suit vs. STD Sniper Rifle))
And those are simply the Assault suits running around with Basic HP modules with no core skills invested (not that core HP skills should be a factor when balancing weapons). I'm sure the TTK would be much higher on Logistics Frames, which have a higher slot count and the ability to add more eHP than it's Assault/Basic Frame counterparts.
That's not faster, that's actually twice the time it would take for the HMG to kill the target. 266 DPS is extremely generous when you consider the TTK of every other weapon in the game, and the fact that every other weapon in the game besides the Plasma Cannon has an extremely higher DPS than the SR would under this model.
Even the fluxing Flaylock and Ion Pistols, regarded as some of the most UP weapons in the game will still out-DPS the Sniper Rifle. (Not attempting to compare the sidearms to the SR, just placing emphasis on why it's DPS will not be a problem).
Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical.
I've run out of stuff to spec into :(
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