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Rough Sketch of Sniper Rifle Damage Models.

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Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9232	Posted - 2014.06.08 18:00:00 - [61] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: If by 'Tanker's Logic' you mean 'I should deal massive damage to all infantry by spraying in their general direction from hundreds of metres away, while being invulnerable to anything except another [tank/sniper]', I agree... No by 'Tanker's Logic' I mean "An [AVer/Sniper] should be forced to shoot me in the [fuel cell/head] if they want a kill". Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9232	Posted - 2014.06.08 18:30:00 - [62] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: So the right response to these issues is to buff the ever loving Christ out of them? Seems like you're totally barking up the wrong tree here. Essentially, yes. Based on a survey taken by 98 players, a Sniper Rifle needs to 1HK Light Frames, 2HK Medium Frames, and 3HK Heavy Frames. This damage model will bring that to a reality. Those issues aren't ever going to be addressed in DUST 514 anyways. Sole Fenychs wrote: Currently, sniper rifles have situational use. They are very effective when people are camping the tops of structures. This ability should be retained. However, they are also hitscan easymode weapons, with what amounts to a random chance at successful headshots on a controller. Any buff would require them to not be hitscan and buffing headshots would just make them extremely random. Headshots already OHK many players. And, seriously, OHKs? Are you drunk? If the rilfes were buffed like that, I'd cram out my proto sniper fit and murder everyone for the entire match. After a week the last few remaining players would disappear - At least tanks gave you the feeling that you might be able to fight back and actually allowed you to capture the objectives. Try doing that when each team has ten snipers. Each match would end from clone depletion with uncapped objectives and we'd lose even more players. Do you even know how frustrating that would be? It's already obnoxious enough to constantly die from random attacks from fuckall nowhere. Currently, sniper rifles are flat-out broken and buffing them would just ruin the game even more than it already is. 75% (80% if you include the SL's homing feature as "hitscan") of the weapons in this game are "hit-scan easy mode weapons". I don't see a problem with Sniper Rifles being a part of the 75% and you haven't supplied a good reason as to why they shouldn't be. Not to mention that removing it's hit-scan feature requires a client-side update, which is not a possibility. "Something being extremely random" is not a reason as to why something shouldn't be buffed, but okay. Though I may be guilty of misinterpreting that part. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Unless your fighting an un-tanked Light Frame, you won't be OHK'ing anything. You may want to take a look at the actual damage model before replying. Though if the hostile team has 10 snipers, you should make an effort to kill the 10 snipers. It wouldn't even be remotely frustrating if you know where to find the sniper, which again is not a problem. Sniper Rifles aren't any more broken than any other niche weapon in DUST 514. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14261	Posted - 2014.06.08 18:45:00 - [63] - Quote Atiim wrote: 75% (80% if you include the SL's homing feature as "hitscan") of the weapons in this game are "hit-scan easy mode weapons". I don't see a problem with Sniper Rifles being a part of the 75% and you haven't supplied a good reason as to why they shouldn't be. Not to mention that removing it's hit-scan feature requires a client-side update, which is not a possibility. SL isn't anything even remotely like hitscan, do you even know what hitscan is? The problem is that you are suggesting SRs which are hitscan, have a 600m range (enough to hit anywhere on the map), huge power projection, able to be used from the highly protective redline, and that are able to either OHKO or kill targets as quick or quicker than conventional rifles. Theoretical (and entirely plausible situation): You have a Calmando with a Ishukone SR. Said SR will now do over 400 damage per shot. A double tap from this will kill anything that isn't a tanked heavy. You see a target. You fire a shot. First shot done. How long does the target have to react before they get killed by the follow-up? One second. Given the up-front alpha potential, this SR is doing more DPS than a 1.7 boundless combat rifle. From several hundred metres away. With pinpoint accuracy. You only need a body shot to get the kills. You can do this from the redline and still have an overview of the majority of the map. From there, the only things that can counter you are other snipers or vehicles. Do you honestly not see the problem with this? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9232	Posted - 2014.06.08 18:52:00 - [64] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Because the redline breaks any potential risk/reward balance, and the only thing having such a long range accomplishes is allowing people to sit deep in it whilst using a sniper. Reducing the range forces people out of the redline, increasing the risk and allowing reward (the effectiveness of the weapon) to be increased. However reducing the range of the Sniper Rifle runs the risk of eliminating vantage points outside of the redline. I prefer CCP Ratatti's solution, as it removes the reward in redline sniping, causing you to risk your life if you want a reward; which will solve the risk/reward problem of redline sniping, while also allowing Snipers to keep their range. Though this could easily be abused by simply sniping right outside the redline, then jumping back into it when in danger. A simple solution to this would be making the the WP loss area spread over an area slightly past the redline. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III -HAND
Dexter307 The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar 1593	Posted - 2014.06.08 19:07:00 - [65] - Quote Only headshot multiplyers and zoom levels need changing.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9232	Posted - 2014.06.08 19:08:00 - [66] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: SL isn't anything even remotely like hitscan, do you even know what hitscan is? The problem is that you are suggesting SRs which are hitscan, have a 600m range (enough to hit anywhere on the map), huge power projection, able to be used from the highly protective redline, and that are able to either OHKO or kill targets as quick or quicker than conventional rifles. Theoretical (and entirely plausible situation): You have a Calmando with a Ishukone SR. Said SR will now do over 400 damage per shot. A double tap from this will kill anything that isn't a tanked heavy. You see a target. You fire a shot. First shot done. How long does the target have to react before they get killed by the follow-up? One second. Given the up-front alpha potential, this SR is doing more DPS than a 1.7 boundless combat rifle. From several hundred metres away. With pinpoint accuracy. You only need a body shot to get the kills. You can do this from the redline and still have an overview of the majority of the map. From there, the only things that can counter you are other snipers or vehicles. Do you honestly not see the problem with this? Yes, I know what "hitscan" is. It's a weapon that's projectile has no travel time, as it's hit is "registered" instantaneously. I see no problem with being killed with a double tap, with the 1s reaction time. Not only is the human reaction time much faster than 1s, a suit that's not a Sentinel can easily strafe, hop, and/or jump to cover to avoid shots from the Sniper Rifle, preventing them from being killed by a follow-up shot. The only foreseeable problem I agree with here is the redline, and there are several solutions to that problem. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful. I'd rather you be logical. Current Goal: Caldari Medium Dropsuits III -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14266	Posted - 2014.06.08 19:15:00 - [67] - Quote Atiim wrote: Yes, I know what "hitscan" is. It's a weapon that's projectile has no travel time, as it's hit is "registered" instantaneously. I see no problem with being killed with a double tap, with the 1s reaction time. Not only is the human reaction time much faster than 1s, a suit that's not a Sentinel can easily strafe, hop, and/or jump to cover to avoid shots from the Sniper Rifle, preventing them from being killed by a follow-up shot. The only foreseeable problem I agree with here is the redline, and there are several solutions to that problem. You see no problem with a faster TTK than HMGs? Really? Perhaps we should undo all the rifle nerfs then. Hell, give them buffs. If 1s TTK is alright for a weapon that can project across entire maps with minimal risk to the user, then clearly everything else is horrendously underpowered. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 90	Posted - 2014.06.08 19:55:00 - [68] - Quote hello boys and girls are we sitting comfortably? then i'll begin..... first of all everybody here is speaking about having a problem with charge rifles, ishukone rifles (oddly enough no mention of the kal, anybody else read anything into that?). that is really great.. heres the rub, they are proto weapons. other weapon types generally are brought into pc at proto level with the majority of players saving their proto gear to be a decent player for their corp. i see no reason that the proto sniper should be any different. if this were the case the expense of the rifle not it's capabillities should reflect its "low risk" play style eg if a rifle costs 10 mill then people cant afford to keep throwing them at pub matches. in turn this means that the advanced tier weapons should be the weapons that are selected for pub matches, now look again at attim's table, i ask you what is the problem? 2nd point. you can't keep punishing every player that picks up a sniper rifle in this game for no real reason, everybody seems to completely overlook the fact that to be competitive against advanced suits a sniper has to use maximum damage at the moment, we have no "p.c fit" as we need those to be decent in a pub match. ok the red line is an issue for players but this is because people at the moment have no real need to deal with snipers unless you get a good sniper against you they're not a threat they are an inconvenience, people can shoot into the red line easily enough and as for them not being vulnerable, don't even get me started on ads pilots. snipers do not wish to be stuck in the red lines all the time as i have pointed out more than once WE do not ask for a red line at all! yes we use distance as a shield, we are supposed to, there would be no point to using a sniper rifle inside a building when a shotgun will do better. all we actually ask for and ask for regularly (with regards to position) is for more vantage points INSIDE the map, NOT the red line. not our fault ccp saw fit to create bowl shaped maps. you cant blame a sniper for using high spots on a map when they provide the best view and therefore the best way of attacking the enemies. 3rd point. you say about how snipers are low risk... ok if these changes came about then how many people would suddenly decide that maybe our squad should go and deal with the enemy sniper because he has a charge rifle in much the same way as people hunt a thales user now after a buff like this? i would guess that although the rifles do more damage most snipers would start to get less kills. 4th point people on here keep mentioning about a calmando sniper with three damage mods. this should NOT be the base of damage for sniper rifles, this is the absolute of sniping!! you are actually saying here that a sniper should have NO options when creating their suit. how you people expect a sniper to decide to come and play in the easily reached places of the map, with weapons that don't kill using suits with no shield or armour modules astounds me.. i think this attitude is absolutely disgraceful. no other player type gets forced to use 1 set fit in order to play the game, what happened to the notion of the game being fun for everybody? not everybody enjoys running around with assault rifles, i am starting to enjoy my heavy fit (cal sentinel, squishy as hell!) but i will always prefer sniping, not only in dust either and not only against other players, it has nothing to do with cowardice (it's not like I'm actually being shot is it?!) or even gun game (this weekend i had my best heavy round so far of 39-15-6 in an advanced sentinel, i don't have proto yet.) also damage mods are a bonus that are chosen and skilled into separately to anything else, and as such should not be taken into account when calculating damage for a weapon. 5th point. I have actually for a little while been saying that the main thing sniper rifles need is a head shot boost i still am of that opinion. that said i have taken part in the survey and seen the opinions of others and this is what was asked for above all else, at the moment there is no way that people can HONESTLY say that any sniper rifles other than the charge or thales are in a good place, and even those aren't in a good place for p.c battles. overall i would say that these changes are not that bad, ok they may seem as though they are ott but you should remember that sniper rifles haven't been touched directly for at least a year. whilst almost everything else has gone through changes that have consistently effected them negatively. you should also consider that proto rifles should be usable in p.c battles and that a sniper using them has already gone as far as possible with their sp into the role they choose. these changes would allow snipers more freedom in what to use and allow them to start using their proto weapons where they should be used. there would need to be changes to the cost of rifles to make most snipers not want to throw them away, and i would also say an advanced model charge variant should be introduced too. and as i already mentioned people will target a sniper that brings a full proto fit out to pub matches as they will too much of a threat to ignore. that should be the case as it is with almost all other support type role in the game. (you would not stand toe to toe out in the open against a fully upgraded tank!) with regards to the red line. until there are some major changes with map design and red line function there will be problems with*(not just) snipers in the red line. but that should not be an excuse from other snipers being able to get a place in their pc battle or being able to play competitively with more than one fit
Guiltless D667 37	Posted - 2014.06.08 20:16:00 - [69] - Quote Wow i cant imagine what a thale will hit A Strange Game.
Lorhak Gannarsein Legio DXIV 3427	Posted - 2014.06.09 00:18:00 - [70] - Quote Increase headshot bonus in line with ScP. Fix hit detection. Add a 1m timer to friendly redline. (? Not so sure about that one). Should be sorted. BlowoutForCPM

Scheneighnay McBob The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5190	Posted - 2014.06.09 01:13:00 - [71] - Quote Biggest issue: Dumbasses that think the sniper rifle is a role in itself. It's not. It's a weapon. It can be used for area denial. It can be used for sneaky-sneaking. "sniper" is not a role, just like "laser rifle" and "shotgun" are not roles. For the record, "slayer" is not a role either. péñpâ¦pé+pâìpââpâêpü«tÄïµºÿpüïpéÅpüäpüä pé¦pâ+pé¦pâ½pâäpâ¬pâ¦pé¦pâ¼pâ+pâêpü»sñ¬S+ïpéè
Ryme Intrinseca The Rainbow Effect 1329	Posted - 2014.06.09 14:32:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati, in rifle discussion in features section wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps This is the start and end of any discussion about sniper rifle damage output.
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 93	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:38:00 - [73] - Quote "sniper" is not a role, just like "laser rifle" and "shotgun" are not roles. For the record, "slayer" is not a role either.[/quote] I think you'll find that "sniper" is in fact a very important military profession if you want to be pedantic "laser rifles, combat rifles, etc" are actually weapons and people are not referring to the "sniper rifle" as a role. you would also be able to say that in dust there are no "roles" as people can put skill into what they like in any type of order without being restricted by any type of "role" restrictions. however that doesn't change much within in the scope of this conversation. and once again I wonder whether people would care to venture opinions of the actual aspects related to the sniper rifles instead of just having a little bash at snipers. example. "the thales will now do too much damage" a valid concern about the power of a weapon that would in theory be affected. my best idea here would be to more or less leave the thales alone. it shouldn't do as much damage as the charge rifle at the same time as having a tactical scope anyway, this would place it just above proto tac rifles. "snipers will use the red line too much" not really valid in the topic... by which I mean they already do and an increase in damage won't make much of a difference to that, incidentally reducing the damage they do would also push the few that stayed sniping to do it from the red line due to being ineffective at closer range anyway. "You cannot justify a buff of x%" A valid point it has regards to the proposed changes. (already stated my opinion above). "reducing range according to damage" I disagree but it is valid it raises points about the extra damage in proportion to being further away. "reducing range to stop snipers hiding in the red line" Sorry but not valid, has no relation to proposed changes. and as snipers are not the only things that hide in the red line this should also be the case for vehicles.. i.e ads can escape swarms by actually outrunning them therefore they use distance as protection, they regularly back off to their red area to hide, and therefore shouldn't be as powerful as they are, also red line rail tanks, also turrets within red zones, also blaster tanks with armour or shield hardeners that will start a hardener to cover their escape to guess where? point being it is not the problem being addressed here. feel free to comment, but please try to be constructive folks. you may not like snipers but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be allowed to enjoy whole aspects of the game. I do not like tanks, ads, shotty scouts, remote explosives or heavies that are better than me at being heavy when I do it! but I do not believe any of them should be removed or kept down to a point where they could not be any use in a p.c battle.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9269	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:41:00 - [74] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati, in rifle discussion in features section wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps This is the start and end of any discussion about sniper rifle damage output. He was referring to Conventional Rifles. If you feel that the same principle applies to niche rifles, then I'd expect you to capmaign for a Laser Rifle nerf as well considering how it out-ranges most Anti-Infantry Weapons, and has a DPS higher than nearly all of them. Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. I've run out of stuff to spec into :( -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14323	Posted - 2014.06.09 19:49:00 - [75] - Quote Atiim wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati, in rifle discussion in features section wrote: 3) And finally make sure that there is a trade off of range versus dps This is the start and end of any discussion about sniper rifle damage output. He was referring to Conventional Rifles. If you feel that the same principle applies to niche rifles, then I'd expect you to capmaign for a Laser Rifle nerf as well considering how it out-ranges most Anti-Infantry Weapons, and has a DPS higher than nearly all of them. Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m. You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 9269	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:14:00 - [76] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m. No, not really. The TTK of an HMG lies at about .5-1s for anything other than another Heavy frame due to it having a DPS of 700HP/s (at STD); while: A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 3s TTK A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 2s TTK ((Assuming STD Suit vs. STD Sniper Rifle)) And those are simply the Assault suits running around with Basic HP modules with no core skills invested (not that core HP skills should be a factor when balancing weapons). I'm sure the TTK would be much higher on Logistics Frames, which have a higher slot count and the ability to add more eHP than it's Assault/Basic Frame counterparts. That's not faster, that's actually twice the time it would take for the HMG to kill the target. 266 DPS is extremely generous when you consider the TTK of every other weapon in the game, and the fact that every other weapon in the game besides the Plasma Cannon has an extremely higher DPS than the SR would under this model. Even the fluxing Flaylock and Ion Pistols, regarded as some of the most UP weapons in the game will still out-DPS the Sniper Rifle. (Not attempting to compare the sidearms to the SR, just placing emphasis on why it's DPS will not be a problem). Amarrians would prefer you be faithful... I'd rather you be logical. I've run out of stuff to spec into :( -HAND
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution 14324	Posted - 2014.06.09 20:43:00 - [77] - Quote Atiim wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Right, so because a weapon is 'niche' it should be completely exempt from any concept of balance and should instead kill everything from a few hundred metres away faster than a heavy machine gun will kill at 10m. No, not really. The TTK of an HMG lies at about .5-1s for anything other than another Heavy frame due to it having a DPS of 700HP/s (at STD); while: A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 3s TTK A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 2s TTK The SR's damage is front loaded. You will fire one shot, then fire the second later. Because of the alpha damage, that means a DPS spike (if we're looking at it purely in terms of DPS). Let me fix that table for you. A STD Gallente Assault can reach 623 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A STD Amarr Assault can reach 503 eHP; resulting in a 1s TTK A STD Minmatar Assault can reach 444 eHP; resulting in a 1s TTK A STD Caldari Assault can reach 467 eHP, resulting in a 1s TTK A fully bricked standard assault suit will die in one second to your proposed standard sniper. Hey, let's take this to proto: When absolutely, fully bricked, all complex tanking modules in every slot vs a properly set up Ishukone SR, you get the following. Let's ignore the fact that absolutely nobody including the worst of bads fits this way because you can't fit anything else at all if you spend that much PG/CPU on tank for now. A correctly set up Ishukone SR under your proposed numbers can hit upwards of 450, ignoring proficiency and armour bonuses (it's worth noting that this would OHKO all but the Galassault if used against those if we applied those conditions, becoming a ludicrously efficient pubstomping tool). A PRO Gallente assault can reach 1224 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK (When set up like this, by the way, it can't actually fit a weapon and is over maximum fitting requirements). A PRO Amarr assault can reach 1113 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK A PRO Caldari assault can reach 1148 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK (also can't fit anything else) A PRO Minmatar assault can reach 1016 eHP; resulting in a 2s TTK How fast will the HMG kill these? In a shade under two seconds, generally. -If- every round hits, which simply doesn't happen with the HMG spread. If those suits aren't bricked to the absolute maximum? A number of common proto fits will drop down to 1s TTK. That ends up faster than the HMG at those levels because of the alpha damage you're putting out. Comparable TTK to a HMG on a weapon that can cover half the map? Do you seriously believe that's reasonable? On probably the lowest risk role in the game second only to the redline railtank? You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
manboar thunder fist SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 52	Posted - 2014.06.09 21:09:00 - [78] - Quote -1 I love sniping, i do! Honestly! But the last thing we need are 600 metre snipers one shotting proto suits beyond render distance! This is absurd NERF SCOUTS, NERF TANKS, NERF AV, NERF ASSAULTS, NERF LOGIS, NERF HEAVIES nerf life
Snake Sellors Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 93	Posted - 2014.06.10 14:54:00 - [79] - Quote @ arkena, thanks for a well thought out point. I would just like to point out that something that happens with sniping in terms of time to kill is the whole 'stalker' hunting effect, I mean that it takes time to find a target then wait to line up a shot, charge up and then wait for the kick to settle down, then charging and lining up and another shot on the same target who now knows it's being shot at takes more time than the first shot did, much more so if you try for headshots. also when the target gets cover following that first shot you either take time to track the target or find a new one. time to kill using a sniper rifle isn't quite the same as being a heavy for example, as a heavy its you find a target, point your gun and fire there's some strafing to help be the person that kills the other player after that you move on or respawn. there is no following a target that has been spotted within range or waiting for a better shot. point being that for other rifles the ttk is directly affected by rof and damage output, for a sniper damage output and rof are important but there are other factors too. not saying that the buffs are exactly right, etc. just pointing out its not quite just a matter of the time it takes between shots. even on a ohk there's a high chance that the sniper spent a good few seconds tracking the target before firing. Again even more so when factoring in headshots.
Strker Remorse OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 16	Posted - 2014.06.10 18:28:00 - [80] - Quote Grimmiers wrote: I don't snipe much. then you really should sit down son while your elders talk, maybe you'll learn som'thin "That bastards been sitting up in the rocks all morning just waiting for two idiots to line up in his sights."

five times Liverpool F.C. 0	Posted - 2014.06.10 20:17:00 - [81] - Quote range should stay the same damage should stay the same, maybe increase headshot multiplier to 200% the damage mods proposed by the op should be applied ONLY if the target is within 300 metres of the sniper or encourage risk for reward by having a sliding scale, eg: target 500m+ away, damage remains same (headshot 200%) target 400m to 499m away, 5% damage increase (headshot 210%) target 300m to 399m away, 10% damage increase (headshot 220%) target 1m to 299m away, 20% damage increase (headshot 250%) for me theres no need to increase base damage, i would keep it simple, leave everything the same except change 2 things: 1) swap the clip size of charge and tactical rifles 2) increase headshot multiplier to 250%
Dusters Blog Galactic News Network 754	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:07:00 - [82] - Quote k Stay tuned for the largest community project ever! The Legion Whiteboard. Email us here: [email protected]
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 1910	Posted - 2014.06.10 23:24:00 - [83] - Quote What happened to a sniper lighting up like a Christmas tree when they fire? The couple of months before Uprising that I played seemed to do that. That seems a fair mechanic to bring back better rifle damage. Brick tanking a scout suit since April 2013!


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