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The Real PC Numbers & how the changes will kill PC

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Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2301	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:40:00 - [31] - Quote Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Sigh you're allowed to stop blowing Kain you know. So me having similar opinons with someone means I'm blowing them? With that 'logic', your a sex slave. No your opinions being dictated by someone makes it so. I did have a counter argument but I'm not in the mood for a debate with someone whose opinion will never be swayed no matter how much logic and stats you throw at them. Tanker/Logi
Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2301	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:40:00 - [32] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? ding ding ding we have a winner! Tanker/Logi
Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2301	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:42:00 - [33] - Quote Rich MO-FO wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Atiim wrote: Hawkin P wrote: Average cost of a Proto Suit 200k. Average Tank and ADS costs 600k and 800k You don't always have to run PRO gear in PC, nor do you have to fit ADSs and HAVs that cost 6-800k. I think CPM Heinrich Jagerblitzen put things into a much better perspective: I play PC for it's competitive nature I will often throw so nI can insane amounts of ISK out for the win losing tanks to hack objectives running Proto suits in my tanks so I can hop out and slay if I get ****ed or take out the enemy HP guy so I can hack. Removing it's competitive nature ruins PC hell if your not supposed to run PRO in PC then whats the point of it. So those Proto suits I see people using in Pubs makes pubs competitive? Wow WTF does proto stomping have to do with anything I just said? Tanker/Logi
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8944	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:48:00 - [34] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: No your opinions being dictated by someone makes it so. I did have a counter argument but I'm not in the mood for a debate with someone whose opinion will never be swayed no matter how much logic and stats you throw at them. My opinions are simply that. My opinions. They aren't dictated by someone else, nor have they ever been. Though I really would like an example of how someone dictated my opinion. You haven't thrown stats and logic that refute any of my arguments. This has been the case not only in this topic, but in just about every argument we've ever had. I think you need to realize that repeating something over and over again doesn't make it a valid argument, nor does it make it true. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8944	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:50:00 - [35] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: WTF does proto stomping have to do with anything I just said? You stated that it's the PRO gear that makes PC competitive. Therefore, all of the PRO gear in PUBs makes it competitive as well, as [by your logic]. At least, I think that's what he's getting at. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8944	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:52:00 - [36] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? Well if you don't want to play a Skirmish 2m+ ISK payouts and boatloads of salvaged gear, then no there is no purpose. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2302	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:55:00 - [37] - Quote Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: WTF does proto stomping have to do with anything I just said? You stated that it's the PRO gear that makes PC competitive. Therefore, all of the PRO gear in PUBs makes it competitive as well, as [by your logic]. At least, I think that's what he's getting at. my point was if PRO gear should not be used in PUBs and it's not really meant for PC due to cost effectiveness then what's it's purpose. Tanker/Logi
Benjamin Ciscko The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 2302	Posted - 2014.05.30 03:57:00 - [38] - Quote Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: No your opinions being dictated by someone makes it so. I did have a counter argument but I'm not in the mood for a debate with someone whose opinion will never be swayed no matter how much logic and stats you throw at them. My opinions are simply that. My opinions. They aren't dictated by someone else, nor have they ever been. Though I really would like an example of how someone dictated my opinion. You haven't thrown stats and logic that refute any of my arguments. This has been the case not only in this topic, but in just about every argument we've ever had. I think you need to realize that repeating something over and over again doesn't make it a valid argument, nor does it make it true. Actually by stats and logic I was referring to back in the good old days when I actually number crunched for arguing AV's power. Tanker/Logi
Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8944	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:02:00 - [39] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: WTF does proto stomping have to do with anything I just said? You stated that it's the PRO gear that makes PC competitive. Therefore, all of the PRO gear in PUBs makes it competitive as well, as [by your logic]. At least, I think that's what he's getting at. my point was if PRO gear should not be used in PUBs and it's not really meant for PC due to cost effectiveness then what's it's purpose. PRO gear should be used against 'high stake' matches. For example, if you were going up against a TLoDT/ERA team, you'd field PRO gear. But if you were going up against a lolDDB/GAM team, you'd field STD/ADV gear. I think being forced to choose when PRO gear is appropriate is healthy, as it follows the whole "Risk vs. ISK" philosophy that CCP has in mind when designing mechanics. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Hakyou Brutor G0DS AM0NG MEN 704	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:35:00 - [40] - Quote Atiim wrote: lolDDB/GAM team, you'd field STD/ADV gear. a¦á_a¦á Get off the forums and fight me like a real Mercenary, Atiim. "I never pull out" ~Ace Boone, 2014.

Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:37:00 - [41] - Quote Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? Owning a district allows you to attack without having to pay for a clone pack. As far as ISK efficiency goes, it is the best thing you can do for yourself if you want to make money doing PC as a corp.
Heimdallr69 2459	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:38:00 - [42] - Quote The type of gear won't change the outcome, if you're an A player and you're opponent is a C list then you'll win even if he has better gear.. You need teamwork to win against an evenly matched opponent not proto gear.. matchmaking I mean pubs. If you're not a PuB*, you're doing it wrong. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:38:00 - [43] - Quote Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: No your opinions being dictated by someone makes it so. I did have a counter argument but I'm not in the mood for a debate with someone whose opinion will never be swayed no matter how much logic and stats you throw at them. My opinions are simply that. My opinions. They aren't dictated by someone else, nor have they ever been. Though I really would like an example of how someone dictated my opinion. You haven't thrown stats and logic that refute any of my arguments. This has been the case not only in this topic, but in just about every argument we've ever had. I think you need to realize that repeating something over and over again doesn't make it a valid argument, nor does it make it true. Can confirm that Attim isn't part of the Kane Spero Unification of Meta meetings. Neither is Kane at this point though, so I wouldn't feel too bad if I was him.
Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 96	Posted - 2014.05.30 04:40:00 - [44] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: The type of gear won't change the outcome, if you're an SHOTGUN SCOUT and you're opponent is a ANYHING ELSE THAT ISNT A HEAVY, CR, TANK, OR DROPSHIP list then you'll win even if he has better gear.. You need teamwork to win against an evenly matched opponent not proto gear.. matchmaking I mean pubs. If you're not a PuB*, you're doing it wrong. Bolded and capsed what you meant to say. I didn't even use caplocks: all legit.
Heimdallr69 2459	Posted - 2014.05.30 05:03:00 - [45] - Quote Stiddlefaxq wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: The type of gear won't change the outcome, if you're an SHOTGUN SCOUT and you're opponent is a ANYHING ELSE THAT ISNT A HEAVY, CR, TANK, OR DROPSHIP list then you'll win even if he has better gear.. You need teamwork to win against an evenly matched opponent not proto gear.. matchmaking I mean pubs. If you're not a PuB*, you're doing it wrong. Bolded and capsed what you meant to say. I didn't even use caplocks: all legit. Thank you sir, somehow I forgot to put that in there Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
Hawkin P Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 399	Posted - 2014.05.30 05:33:00 - [46] - Quote Stiddlefaxq wrote: Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? Owning a district allows you to attack without having to pay for a clone pack. As far as ISK efficiency goes, it is the best thing you can do for yourself if you want to make money doing PC as a corp. That only matters for the first district maybe the first 3 if you place them in key spots around molden heath. After that extra districts are useless. 250 (the number of districts in the game) divided by the number of at least semi-serious corps in the game (At most 30) equals 8+ districts each. This patch makes districts worthless.
Stiddlefaxq Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 97	Posted - 2014.05.30 06:24:00 - [47] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: Stiddlefaxq wrote: Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? Owning a district allows you to attack without having to pay for a clone pack. As far as ISK efficiency goes, it is the best thing you can do for yourself if you want to make money doing PC as a corp. That only matters for the first district maybe the first 3 if you place them in key spots around molden heath. After that extra districts are useless. 250 (the number of districts in the game) divided by the number of at least semi-serious corps in the game (At most 30) equals 8+ districts each. This patch makes districts worthless. The "Semi-Serious" corps can control at least 1 district per hour timer during their prime time in that case, just depends on how many fights they want per night. 22-04 =~7. That is about as much as most "Semi-Serious" corps want. If they don't get attacked, you launch yourself. If someone wants to no show a district because they don't want it or think they can win, you sell it off for the price of a clone pack... that simple. The "Semi-Serious" corps of the game will control 100 districts top top top end. That leaves 150 for everyone else in the game... Isn't that what almost everyone has been asking for from the start? A chance to play as a team without having to go through the hastle of queue syncing FW? If people don't want districts, the sale price will be very low for those who do.... Or is everyone just butthurt that they don't get the isk fountain? No real point to making The New Donut if their is no more passive ISK. Ah, that sucks, should have jumped on it when the getting was good.
iliel Inner.Hell 52	Posted - 2014.05.30 06:26:00 - [48] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Atiim wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: I play PC for it's competitive nature I will often throw so nI can insane amounts of ISK out for the win losing tanks to hack objectives running Proto suits in my tanks so I can hop out and slay if I get **ed or take out the enemy HP guy so I can hack. And what stops you from doing this in STD/ADV gear again? Benjamin Ciscko wrote:** Removing it's competitive nature ruins PC hell if your not supposed to run PRO in PC then whats the point of it. What makes Planetary Conquest competitive: Quality of Tactics Organized Quantity of Specific Roles Quality of Players The point of Prototype gear is to use it when you can afford it. It wasn't meant to be spammed 24/7 whenever players feel like. The new PC changes will force players to either go broke, or run PRO sparingly, which is good. Sigh you're allowed to stop blowing Kain you know. shh, they don't do that sort of stuff in goonfeet. haven't you read their corp. description?
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 778	Posted - 2014.05.30 06:38:00 - [49] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: Stiddlefaxq wrote: Hynox Xitio wrote: Am I the only one who thinks removing all rewards from owning districts negates the purpose of owning a district? Owning a district allows you to attack without having to pay for a clone pack. As far as ISK efficiency goes, it is the best thing you can do for yourself if you want to make money doing PC as a corp. That only matters for the first district maybe the first 3 if you place them in key spots around molden heath. After that extra districts are useless. 250 (the number of districts in the game) divided by the number of at least semi-serious corps in the game (At most 30) equals 8+ districts each. This patch makes districts worthless. Bingo, we have a winner. Yes the whole point is that there is no reason to try and hold many districts. This means that you can have many owners of districts, some strong and some weak and there will be continuous fights and appraisals going on. Corps can field more than 1 team and let more than just the top tier play. You have incentive to fight, you have incentive to win, you DON'T have much incentive to keep others out. Because, that's why.
CUSE TOWN333 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 603	Posted - 2014.05.30 08:13:00 - [50] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: CCP hasnt said yet how much each merc might get paid out at the end of the game. it could be substantially increased. Additionally, the corp wallet could also win a lump sum from a game. Either way, its better than the system is now where people agree to not fight eachother just so that they can collect welfare to bankroll luxury pub games. if someone wants ISK they have to earn it now. The entitlements tap is being turned off. Good players and good corps will still find a way to finance their fights and turn a profit. Its only those who needed a constant handout who are going to flounder. Sink or swim you sound like someone who has been pub stomped one to many times alpha hot fix ain't going to change that. The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy"s will to be imposed upon him. Sun Tzu

Atiim Heaven's Lost Property 8945	Posted - 2014.05.30 11:51:00 - [51] - Quote Hakyou Brutor wrote: Atiim wrote: lolDDB/GAM team, you'd field STD/ADV gear. a¦á_a¦á Get off the forums and fight me like a real Mercenary, Atiim. I'd love too. But my PS3 refuses to let me enter Warbarges without hard-freezing. HvLP Spreadsheet Warrior Why Do Slayers Get All The Credit? :( -HAND
Firbolg Barun Dust2Dust. Top Men. 44	Posted - 2014.05.30 12:35:00 - [52] - Quote Everyone is not entitled to running proto gear all the time. Harden The **** Up Crybabies.
Derrith Erador The Last of DusT. 1946	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:30:00 - [53] - Quote Firbolg Barun wrote: You are not entitled to running proto gear all the time. Harden The F*ck Up Crybaby carebears. You're telling this to people who spent money and at the very least, on average, a good two years supporting this crappy game. You're also telling it to guys like me, who avoided running proto in pubs for a good year and three quarters (at least for me) unless it was necessary, at least until we heard the "great" CCP Rogue announce the great plans at fanfest. Good luck getting that point through. Betty White, the worlds hottest grandma.
ZDub 303 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 2989	Posted - 2014.05.30 14:44:00 - [54] - Quote I still think the changes would be perfect if they just made research labs generate a smaller amount of passive isk per day (like 3-4 million isk per day) and generated zero clones. Clones become war assets and you would still generally have to maintain a certain number of clone generating districts. This would just allow a corp with a large number of districts to convert a few to do something productive while weakening themselves in the process. It would also keep people fighting over these districts, giving them something to want to fight for. This new system is just a poor copy of the old corp battle system from chromosome.
Heimdallr69 2460	Posted - 2014.05.30 15:13:00 - [55] - Quote Firbolg Barun wrote: You are not entitled to running proto gear all the time. Harden The F*ck Up Crybaby carebears. I've been here since day one of closed beta I'm entitled to do what I want and if I wish to harden up I believe I can buy a pill for that.. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro
SoTa PoP Heaven's Lost Property 5105	Posted - 2014.05.30 15:54:00 - [56] - Quote This is going to be my last post, but I wanted to touch upon the issue that ultimately made me decide FUCK DUST. Which is basically what the OP is describing. After I made my thread earlier about how cool I thought it was to force everyone to fight, I hopped into a few chats and we spoke about the changes. What we came to realize is that Planetary Conquest is now seriously, quite literally, an ISK farming mode, and a bad one at that. Before, to many of us, it felt like there was a reason to go out and conquer, grow, be the best, have the best. With the new game changes the best choice now is just find small groups of 16 to get constantly fielded and farm. It is no longer 'Planetary Conquest' - it's more like corp battles we had in the past with bigger pay outs. Being in big corps is now a disadvantage, your numbers don't matter, only your ability to win. Having more people around competing for spots to get ISK is going to cause issues, and there'll be even more issues if only the winning side gets any real pay out, as the losing side just can't go sit on a district and farm it for the next attack. PC losses for gear can get pretty high, even with 3-4 mil payout some people will just be hitting flatline on isk gain/loss. Districts only value now is to save you ISK from having to buy Clone Packs. There is no longer a reason to build an empire. GG Dust, I'm moving to FF:ARR and awaiting Destiny/ESO/PS2. o7 n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++ I watch anime for the plot
LAVALLOIS Nash QcGOLD 180	Posted - 2014.05.30 16:03:00 - [57] - Quote CUSE TOWN333 wrote: you sound like someone who has been pub stomped one to many times alpha hot fix ain't going to change that. Of course I have. When i started playing this game, I expected to be outsmarted, I expected to be outgunned, and out aimed, and out outmaneuvered. I never expected to be outspent on such a scale. Outspending your opponent is common in "pay to win" games, I thought with Dusts AUR structure that there wouldn't be much of that. You see, a key part of Dust balancing is the risk vs reward. Proto is supposed to be situational. Lemme tell you a story. Once I was in a Ambush game, and early in the game I had flanked to the other side, and a Nyain San guy, unaware of me, had got out of his tank to shoot an elusive scout. So i shot him the back and stole his Madrugar Ion cannon. i then proceeded to destroy 2 more of his tanks as he was calling them in, until I got into a running fight with a corp mate of his, and finally, he destroyed me with his 3rd called in tank. Do the math on that one. Im told a comparably equipped Madrugar ion cannon runs at about 520,000ISK. He lost 3 and was sitting in the 4th. So in a game mode where i make 175,000ISK on average per game, he had lost 1,560,000ISK worth of tanks and was sitting in another 520,000ISK one. So in short, he was willing to spend 2 million+ ISK to win in game mode that pays at best only 10% of that. Nevermind the differences between ADV and PRO equipment. Nevermind the people who cant win without being in a squad. Just the sheer differences in spending power make it a done deal before anyone even deploys. It would be one thing if PC had always been kicking, and mercs sometimes went to play pubs. But the opposite is true: People were locking PC to fund the pub fights in the manner I listed above. You can blame me, call me a bad player, a complained, a noob, a pubstar, ect. But at the end of the day, the fact remains that if PC funding had been spent mostly on PC, this thread would not exist and we wouldn't be having a conversation about these changes.
Roman837 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 333	Posted - 2014.05.30 17:03:00 - [58] - Quote Lavallois- What you forgot to mention..is that player from Nyain EARNED that isk. And so did his corp. They spent COUNTLESS hours practicing, grinding and building team cohesion so that they could CONQUOR those districts and generate ISK to fund their players. They woke up or stayed up to play on OUR prime time..and the WON and flipped those districts. They DESERVE the reward of being to the enjoy the rest of the game. It is not THEIR fault you were to LAZY to put the TIME and DEDICATION in training and forming a COMPETENT fighting force. You and everyone else who supports this change, just royally ****** everyones hard work and dedication. All because you QQ'd that people had more isk in pubs then you. You have eliminated the competitiveness to this game. You have removed the REWARD for working together as a team. Hard work requires rewards, lazyness deserves nothing. Fail. Maple Syrup Drinking Canadian, EVE Characters Cesar Sousa, CEO of ERA
Roman837 Escrow Removal and Acquisition 333	Posted - 2014.05.30 17:06:00 - [59] - Quote Also, Good job Nyain for being able to provide for your players. Yes..1200 timers suck for the rest of us..BUT...they are NOT impossible. They have left them online and available for months. They deserve their bank accounts..a big kudos to them. Maple Syrup Drinking Canadian, EVE Characters Cesar Sousa, CEO of ERA
Derrith Erador The Last of DusT. 1950	Posted - 2014.05.30 17:19:00 - [60] - Quote Roman837 wrote: Also, Good job Nyain for being able to provide for your players. Yes..1200 timers suck for the rest of us..BUT...they are NOT impossible. They have left them online and available for months. They deserve their bank accounts..a big kudos to them. I'm on the fence of agreeing with you there. I don't think deserves their wallets, they can use the "we're Japanese" thing all they like, but they have a capable American team at their disposal. Add to the fact that I've seen plenty of their Japanese players on pubs during American times, just makes me want to call BS on them earning their wallet. I'm not saying move all your timers to American timers, but having all your timers on that time is just... I can't find a suitable word for it. But on the other hand, they got their immense money from people being too lazy to actually organize a blitz and knock them out of MH. I was a part of at least two blitzes, and a crap ton of the people who said they would show up and help take them out, didn't show up. So one hand, yes they deserve it, because of laziness, but no they don't, because those timers are ridiculous for a corp I know can field at least 14 on American timers. Betty White, the worlds hottest grandma.



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