now the values of hardeners have been changed some, but not by much

Quick post swarms are for LAV and dropships

And PC and forge for tanks (PC being weaker due to mobility)

Just like CC RR is for amour SCR and AR for shields

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

I strongly suggest that swarms should be retuned to be:

• WAY FASTER - easy to hit if target is moving straight towards or away
• Clumsier: easily overshooting -Hard to hit it target is moving fast left/right from swarmers point of view, especially at close distance.
• And definitely NO CORNER BENDING swarms doing 90 degree turns at will!

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

Seriously are you fu@king kidding? Make missiles faster or give them back their old damage. ADS are ridiculous. What moron made dropshs faster than a missile?

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

CCP Logibro - you seriously have to watch this!!

If the swarms do less damage per missile, it's not enough to stop drop ship shields from recharging immediately upon damage. This video above is so insanely well produced and explains everything that is wrong with swarm launchers.

GRAPHS
FRAME by FRAME
COMPARISONS
MATH
FACTS

WATCH THAT VIDEO. *then post when you do*

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Missiles carry fuel to propel, at the end of the trajectory it should have less fuel. What if the missiles start out with incredible speed but start losing speed the farther they travel... Overall slowest speed should not be slower than current but initial speed should be a noticeable increase....

Say double the speed for the first 200 meters of travel decaying to current speed after 200 meters travels. This way closer targets will almost surely be hit and farther targets will have the same chance to be hit as they do now. Since swarm lock on is 175 meters this ensures that most of the missiles will take advantage of the missile speed increase.

You could always replace the rather obselete assault swarm launcher's gimmick for this.

Ever seen a heavy bomber or fighter jet survive a hit from a missile idiot? That's about as stupied as saying a scout shouldn't be able to kill a heavy. Aircraft is lightly armored or it wouldn't fly. And I've hit YOUR ADS with a proto forge gun with 3 damage mods at close range and you still had all your armor and flew away... 3-4 indirect hits from your missile and my heavy is dead? Your a good pilot but that's complete b.s.

~50% reduction is "not by much"? Whewww...?
Used to be 40% and 60%, now is 25% and 40% (armor, then shield respectively: not sure about the shield as I don't use that one.)

Anyway... if there were slow swarms that had poor turning, but high damage, and fast swarms with High impact and good trail following, but low damage, it would make things interesting. The high impact would send DS spinning for a short time, potentially forcing them to ram into buildings if they are too close, or slam into the ground. Would be good for LAV's as well, knock them a bit off course (ground vehicles would be less affected obviously) and chase them down if they're being snarky and running laps.

Consequentially, I would love a high Impact land mine that does very little damage, but would flip over a tank, forcing the driver to get out to right the tank. Should be lower DB than the cheapest tank scanners can do, but slightly more visible than remotes.
Actually, I don't see why remotes show up at all on the tank scanner... In a highly contested map where there are a team of tankers preventing any organized opposition, they should still have to deal with retaliation by ground forces...
I drive a tank half the time, and I see that remotes are usually easy to spot if paying attention.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

[quote=CCP Logibro]Regarding the latter, since the great tank buff, I have never stumbled upon a tank driver repping his tank with a rep tool and I almost never bother repping tanks anymore (I exclusively use a triage rep tool on my min logi since 1.7). I might be fine with the absurd tank speed, if they had to hide for 1-2 minutes before their armor repped, or get out and rep their own vehicle, thereby leaving them exposed to wandering/hunting scouts and snipers.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

In short. Ass DS are OP as it is. With the proposed buff of the small Rail turrets they are about to be come an insurmountable menace.
An Ass DS should die exactly as easily as a regular Tank. (A Madrugar of Gunnlogi.)

Large turrets need to have their upward deflection restored, so they can target DS. And the DS upper ceiling should be lowered so they can no simply escape upwards like a rocket at the spot of trouble, with no real counter. Also, like the LAV's, add an acceleration curve to the DS. Right now they are pretty much 0- to safety in 2 seconds flat.

well you also clearly don't fly dropships.
There is only one large turret that should have its elevation buffed (assuming that's what you mean by deflection?) The missile turret.
Blaster, anti infantry
Rail, anti tank
Missile, anti air

If you want to take away our flight ceiling then you have to take away your red line. That's about the only place a dropship can actually be safe. I'm assuming you don't know this because you don't fly, afterburners are great, they act like nitro for ground vehicles, it is certainly not fast enough to get to the flight ceiling in 2 seconds flat.
The dropship does have an acceleration curve when its not afterburning, in fact on take off I point my dose straight down to get maximum forward thrust so I can get to speed faster. So yeah....you don't really know what your talking about....

I would love for the red line to be taken away, that thing is just so aweful. For aerial vehicles though, yes they need to be able to have a point of escape, however, swarm missiles should be much faster and a little bit smarter. I can only barely fly dropships so I'm not going to pretend to know all the problems. However, I will say that missile turrets on tanks are not anti air, well not currently, what they are is flash dps, to basically be able to roll up on someone and kill them within 5 seconds flat. They do not exactly have the aim to be taking on dropships or ADS as far as I know. They also are the rarest kind of tank on the battlefield.

I'm no where near the best vehicle pilot, in fact I'm very green when it comes to running them and I don't have a single point into vehicle command but off the top of my head I can only recall 3 times when I've been taken out by AV in this build which did not include another vehicle (usually a rail or ADS). Of those three 2 of them were REs and/or Proxys, neither of which ADS have anything to fear from, the remaining one was a forge gun. Both swarms and AV nades aren't all that viable right now, leaving ADS only having to worry about other ADS, Rails, and Forge which is a much smaller segment of the player base.

0.02 ISK
Cross

PS ~ Give ADS pilots their due though, some of them are beastly and that has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with player skill.

I would love for the red line to be taken away, that thing is just so aweful. For aerial vehicles though, yes they need to be able to have a point of escape, however, swarm missiles should be much faster and a little bit smarter. I can only barely fly dropships so I'm not going to pretend to know all the problems. However, I will say that missile turrets on tanks are not anti air, well not currently, what they are is flash dps, to basically be able to roll up on someone and kill them within 5 seconds flat. They do not exactly have the aim to be taking on dropships or ADS as far as I know. They also are the rarest kind of tank on the battlefield.

If we make them even a little faster I will not be able to outrun them even with an afterburner. That worries me, as that's really the only countermeasure I have to swarms.
They are plenty smart though, they will follow and hit me no matter what maneuver I do. They will do 90-¦ turns around buildings and hit me. Out running them is all I got.

Actually large missile turrets are quite effective AA. They have some serious knock back, sometimes you can flip dropships, and like you said, burst damage to overpower a dropships reps. I have shot down quite a few incubi with my missile tank and it is quite satisfying. If the turret could elevate higher to say 75-¦ angle then it would be a very effective AA turret. We would also have to buff the range a little but its harder to hit with missiles long range because of travel time so I don't see there being too much of an issue with that.

This is just me spit balling an idea in my head, but what would you think of a slightly lower damage than base (I think we need to look at base swarm damage anyway, so it might be higher than current numbers) swarms that are faster and have more range (maybe different physical impulse, not sure on that one)? Basically a swarm type that's more geared to taking out LAVs and Dropships rather than tanks, or at the very least being more effective at creating a danger zone for them.

Get rid of the useless assault variant we have now, call what you stated above the assault variant.