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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4069	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:33:00 - [1] - Quote Personally I'm a fan of the Dust system, but would prefer to see it iterated upon and presented initially with a much more professional New Player Experience and perhaps another rebalance of how modules interact. CCP Z's system to me simply sounds like its setup to be simplified for the sake of reaching out to a much dumber audience, while limiting our options and what we are allowed to do with our SP. Dropsuits would not be consumable, and everything inside of that tree is trained like a "class" in a fantasy MMO like WoW rather than as an individual skill that can be carried from one suit to another. If you are not interested in seeing Legion go in this direction, please sign here. Please note that any comments relating to respec mechanics or improved matchmaking should be kept separate from your decision to sign here, as that kind of thing is really a completely independent issue.
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1491	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:36:00 - [2] - Quote Signed. The progression system should be becoming more like EVE, not less like it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Akdhar Saif Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative 493	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:37:00 - [3] - Quote +1 Signed. I'm sure he'll change it, It's been criticised ever since fanfest.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4069	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:39:00 - [4] - Quote To be clear, I do give CCP Z credit for trying to do something new for the game. This is definitely not an attack on his efforts, it just isn't a good fit for this game at all.
XEROO COOL Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1041	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:44:00 - [5] - Quote Signed +1 Xeroo.Cool on Skype. Kyle720 on PSN
Haerr Legio DXIV 624	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:53:00 - [6] - Quote Signed. +1
Forlorn Destrier 2503	Posted - 2014.05.14 18:57:00 - [7] - Quote I'm on the fence. I like the Eve like progression, though I do see the benefits of the new progression system as well. I reserve judgment.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens Final Resolution. 1841	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:16:00 - [8] - Quote On the fence, leaning towards not a fan. It isn't because "it isn't like EVE!!!" because I think that is a silly point. They are different games. That's like complaining that World of Warcraft and Diablo 3 have different skill systems; they are different games and don't necessarily have to be the same. My complaint is the radical difference from what we have known in DUST. Even if it is a better system, there is almost no connection. There is also the annoyance of "Wait, so if I want to be a Scout with an Assault Rail Rifle I have to go down the Assault tree?" That adds an obscene amount of time to be able to make something that would otherwise be very easy to do. Jeez, in DUST that kind of build could probably be done in two weeks from starting a new character if you planned for it. Having the aspect of needing to go down an entire role just for a few modules is kind of ridiculous in my mind. There is also the fact that respecs are planned. That doesn't bother me too much but it means that CCP has a financial reason to want to do massive changes because people will want to leap onto the Flavor/Fit of the Month which means respecs. Call me "Nervous as hell but reserving judgment until Z completes the whole tree" "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
MassiveNine Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 833	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:24:00 - [9] - Quote Signed. Feels like they are trying to make it more of a grindfest. Official DUST514 LAV Mechanic
Corbina Ninja 992	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:36:00 - [10] - Quote x R.I.P. Dust 514 14/05/13 - 02/05/14

Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 8553	Posted - 2014.05.14 19:59:00 - [11] - Quote I'm not going to sign nor counter sign because at the moment I am still confused in regards to understanding CCP Z's point in all this. I will have to see the skill tree in its entirety to get the whole context. Until then, consider me to be on the fence. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2263	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:01:00 - [12] - Quote signed. because FREEDOM click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 150	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:03:00 - [13] - Quote Signed. I'm not down with that either. Detering more people away from this game is starting to look more like a goal for CCP. *I LOGI LIKE I GIVE A FLUX* \|Director of Fatal Absolution\| \|Ringer Hub Creator\| Skype: xTheSiLLyRaBBiTx
DaReaperPW Net 7 The Last Brigade 21	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:05:00 - [14] - Quote I'm going to say this. As this system is in early stage or being developed... (CCP LEGION REALLY NEEDS A GREEN LIGHT) so there is time to change, modify it. But i'm holding off until i see it in action. Because sometimes what someone had in there head translate totally different in practice, where you may be going 'this sounds lame' then try it and go 'oh! now i get it! this rocks" or "No, i was right this sucks."
Killar-12 OLDSPICE. Top Men. 2841	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:11:00 - [15] - Quote Signed I AM 1337 Approved
McFurious TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 773	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:25:00 - [16] - Quote Signed. I think his system will be helpful for new players to learn the roles and skills in the game. What I don't like is that it sounded like we're restricted to those role/skill trees. For example, having to skill into a logi suit just to be able to skill into the MD. If we're not restricted or there's a legacy skill tree option like in Dust where the original "skill list" is still there. Then I'm all for it. Half Irish. Often angry. Grizzled Masshole Closed Beta Vet PC > Console
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 210	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:25:00 - [17] - Quote On the fence. Need more info before final judgement
Buster Friently Rosen Association 2365	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:31:00 - [18] - Quote Signed. After watching the video I can say that it seems like a step in the wrong direction. one of the things people have criticised about Dust, is that you had to unlock meaningless skills to get to the one's you want. So, why again, do I have to unlock a certain suit (say Logi) so I can unlock the MD? This seems really stupid. I'm also not a fan of the common-uncommon-rare distinction. How is that supposed to be managed when we have an Eve connected market with player crafted gear?
ZDub 303 TeamPlayers Dirt Nap Squad. 2889	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:36:00 - [19] - Quote I'm reserving judgement until I know more about it. We can't really provide a lot of feedback on something we haven't seen much on yet.
Ender Storm Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 131	Posted - 2014.05.14 20:54:00 - [20] - Quote Signed. Not really read the new progression, but I fully agree Legion progression must be as much EVE-like as possible.

Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 795	Posted - 2014.05.14 21:01:00 - [21] - Quote I can't say if I like it or not, as there is often a disparity between how things function in action and how they look on paper. Let us all beta test, so we can give an informed opinion. But... based on what little I know, I am leaning towards not liking it, as it seems to remove a significant amount of customization and freedom of progression, and it seems to promote waste.
Denchlad 7 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 254	Posted - 2014.05.14 22:47:00 - [22] - Quote /signed. I will be the only player to Prototype every single god damn weapon before Dust dies. I swear to it.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4084	Posted - 2014.05.14 22:52:00 - [23] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: I can't say if I like it or not, as there is often a disparity between how things function in action and how they look on paper. Let us all beta test, so we can give an informed opinion. But... based on what little I know, I am leaning towards not liking it, as it seems to remove a significant amount of customization and freedom of progression, and it seems to promote waste. While it seems a reasonable request to "just try it" I would like to remind you that a lack of options on paper isn't going to feel more acceptable when your options are taken away from you for real. And I would also like to point out that the further CCP gets into this progression tree development, the less likely they are to back out -- even if the entire fanbase is in an uproar over how bad it is.
Ender Storm Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 131	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:20:00 - [24] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: I can't say if I like it or not, as there is often a disparity between how things function in action and how they look on paper. Let us all beta test, so we can give an informed opinion. But... based on what little I know, I am leaning towards not liking it, as it seems to remove a significant amount of customization and freedom of progression, and it seems to promote waste. While it seems a reasonable request to "just try it" I would like to remind you that a lack of options on paper isn't going to feel more acceptable when your options are taken away from you for real. And I would also like to point out that the further CCP gets into this progression tree development, the less likely they are to back out -- even if the entire fanbase is in an uproar over how bad it is. They want to tie equipment consumption, blueprints, even matchmaking to this system. This isn't a thing they can suddenly change when it gets bad feedback. It has to be killed before its born. Thats true, when the games are into beta, pretty much all mechanics are already set up and hardly they change. The moment to discuss things is at design stage and alpha test when the select few opinions may bear weight. All else is minor adjustments and balance.
Kovinis Sparagas Bullet Cluster Lokun Listamenn 391	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:21:00 - [25] - Quote +1 signed I support EVE Legion, but the message was very badly delivered...
HiddenBrother 163	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:23:00 - [26] - Quote Moves game to PC. Restructures game to appeal to casuals. GG CCP
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 795	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:25:00 - [27] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Vicious Minotaur wrote: I can't say if I like it or not, as there is often a disparity between how things function in action and how they look on paper. Let us all beta test, so we can give an informed opinion. But... based on what little I know, I am leaning towards not liking it, as it seems to remove a significant amount of customization and freedom of progression, and it seems to promote waste. While it seems a reasonable request to "just try it" I would like to remind you that a lack of options on paper isn't going to feel more acceptable when your options are taken away from you for real. And I would also like to point out that the further CCP gets into this progression tree development, the less likely they are to back out -- even if the entire fanbase is in an uproar over how bad it is. They want to tie equipment consumption, blueprints, even matchmaking to this system. This isn't a thing they can suddenly change when it gets bad feedback. It has to be killed before its born. So... CCP will cripple themselves, and not learn from feedback and the entire fustercluck of DUST? All because they are a few measly months into development of a game (which normally take YEARS to develop) AND has not even been greenlit? I don't buy it. Especially now that they are doing this on their home turf. If the game got out of beta with the progression system and all the tie-ins, I'd share your concern. But so far, the game still seems to be in pre-alpha or thereabout. I doubt CCP will shoot themselves in the foot again. Change it now, or don't. Either way, I want something in my hands to feel, to test, and to give informed feedback on. Words on paper (or in this case, pixels on a screen) only go so far.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4085	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:50:00 - [28] - Quote If it makes it to beta, there will already be far too much investment into the system to justify removing it Minotaur. Every other design choice in the game will revolve around it. When the core of the game is so entirely bad that the community outright rejects it, you have the occasional, and very very rare, total reboot. That is what you are getting with Legion. They are not going to reboot a reboot. When Legion's system comes out, thats it. You're not getting another one.
SatBee Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2014.05.14 23:59:00 - [29] - Quote I can't say that i'm totally against it already with so limited info. But i already have huge concerns with it.
Captain Crutches Nexus Marines 110	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:13:00 - [30] - Quote Putting my name in. Not only does it seem dumbed down and restrictive, but the dropsuit BPO idea goes directly against CCP Scarpia's vision that everything should be destructible. I'm also even more nervous about it now that I've seen in the sticky that Z plans to add a respec option. That tells me that he knows it's flawed - The mark of a good progression system should be that you don't need a respec option at all. If you dump SP (or whatever ends up being the equivalent) into a certain item or skill set, that's your choice and your specialization - you should always be just as capable of skilling into something else provided you work up the SP to do so. I hear potentially at-will respecs and I think "Is it really going to be so difficult to skill into something new that CCP would rather just let you change your specialization instantly whenever you want?" If respecs are ever added to EVE, I'll unsubscribe - I've put up with them in Dust with the understanding that eventually there would be no need and they would stop completely. Z's statement worries me a lot in that area. Of course I agree that it's much harder to judge this system without seeing it in action, but as Himiko pointed out above, once we see it in action it will likely be too late to change it, so we need to work on it as much as we can before then. But I don't like what I'm reading... Legion is absolutely the right move for the future of Dust. How CCP went about revealing it is the biggest problem.

low genius The Sound Of Freedom 1904	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:16:00 - [31] - Quote looks terrible. i can go buy a battlefield title right now and get the same thing with better development eatsbabies cienfuegos steward of the renegade alliance.
Gregor stormwalker Seraphim Auxiliaries 90	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:24:00 - [32] - Quote Signed. Never liked the look of it and just read the post that talks about respecs o god no plz no. I would like to point out that watching the ccp keynote there was talk of the whole EVE:universe one character across 3 games having radically different skill systems in each game goes very much ageist this vision in my opinion
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 494	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:26:00 - [33] - Quote /signed Chillin, waitin on Legion. Ishukone loyalist, Caldari Scout enthusiast!
Meeko Fent Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2038	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:28:00 - [34] - Quote Sure... Besides the evidently rather biased OP, whats up with this new Progression System besides having everything organized into stupid Classes with ARs in a group with Assault suits? Because you wanted to be something you're not.
Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 88	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:31:00 - [35] - Quote Signed, but I'm hoping he 1. cares about our criticism and 2. comes out with a prototype we can critique reasonably soon. There is plenty we might be misinterpreting from what he wrote... MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
bacon blaster BIG BAD W0LVES Canis Eliminatus Operatives 186	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:32:00 - [36] - Quote I liked the old skill system in dust, it just needed a work over to be more newbie friendly and to not have so damn many sp sinks. +1
Vicious Minotaur Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 796	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:34:00 - [37] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: If it makes it to beta, there will already be far too much investment into the system to justify removing it Minotaur. Every other design choice in the game will revolve around it. When the core of the game is so entirely bad that the community outright rejects it, you have the occasional, and very very rare, total reboot. That is what you are getting with Legion. They are not going to reboot a reboot. When Legion's system comes out, thats it. You're not getting another one. Well, it is a good thing Legion is rather far away from beta, as I said. Plenty of time to give feedback and change things before they enter beta. There is time aplenty for on-paper feedback and in-action feedback. And CCP looks to be listening, this time. Or perhaps that's just me, being not-pessimistic.
Godin Thekiller shadows of 514 2273	Posted - 2014.05.15 00:38:00 - [38] - Quote The respecs needs to go as well, I agree. And if I haven't yet, /Signed click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4087	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:11:00 - [39] - Quote Meeko Fent wrote: Sure... Besides the evidently rather biased OP, whats up with this new Progression System besides having everything organized into stupid Classes with ARs in a group with Assault suits? Well, everyone is biased. I'm just honest about it.
Hyborean Strain Immortal Guides 87	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:23:00 - [40] - Quote Character classes have no place in Eve. I would agree to an extended set of tutorials which explain the different roles and even give you skillbooks towards them, but what's been suggested isn't that. Amarr Victor!

Samael Artico Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 110	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:35:00 - [41] - Quote /Signed.
Hammerhead LandSharkX Liberum Sapiens Xenodochi 18	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:44:00 - [42] - Quote I don't dislike his progression-but I do not like it 'in place of' the current freedom we have in dust514's progression. Here I posted a way I thought his progression could remain the 'accessible alternative' or guide to dust514's skill tree, without replacing it. Do I think dust514's skill tree could use some tweaks? Absolutely. Do I think something could/should be done to make the game and its progression more 'accessible' without loosing it's depth? Sure. Do I think CCP Z's progression replacing the skill tree is the answer? No, not from what I've seen & understand. Do I think both a tweaked dust 514 skill tree and CCP Z's progression can co-exist? Absolutely.

CCP Frame C C P C C P Alliance 2812	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:54:00 - [43] - Quote I would highly recommend you guys to post in the official Progression Discussion thread rather than making "petition threads" signing for something that is still on a very high level design concept. Post your feedback there, and CCP Z will listen. Petitions don't accomplish much, but direct feedback does through reasonable and constructive discussion. CCP Frame

Leeroy Gannarsein Shining Flame Amarr Empire 91	Posted - 2014.05.15 01:58:00 - [44] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: I would highly recommend you guys to post in the official Progression Discussion thread rather than making "petition threads" signing for something that is still on a very high level design concept. Post your feedback there, and CCP Z will listen. Petitions don't accomplish much, but direct feedback does through reasonable and constructive discussion. Or apparently you can put his name in your title MY ACTUAL NAME IS LORHAK It would seem like wisdom, but for the warning in my heart... CCP BLOWOUT FOR CPM1
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:27:00 - [45] - Quote + 1 Signed Because respecs,forcing roles and catering for the stupid are bad and not the way of new eden. Respecs will keep me away from Legion.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:30:00 - [46] - Quote I wrote this on my Twitter, but just as an FYI: "Sigh...petitions on forums. I appreciate the effort but they don't really accomplish much and aren't accurately representative of sentiment." Seriously, /signing things doesn't accomplish anything. There's literally a dedicated thread for interacting with CCP Z relating to Progression Stickied to the top of this subforum. Check it out, bros! CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1565	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:33:00 - [47] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: I wrote this on my Twitter, but just as an FYI: "Sigh...petitions on forums. I appreciate the effort but they don't really accomplish much and aren't accurately representative of sentiment." Seriously, /signing things doesn't accomplish anything. There's literally a dedicated thread for interacting with CCP Z relating to Progression Stickied to the top of this subforum. Check it out, bros! Are you saying we can't post in both threads? I'm heartbroken, Saberwing. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4105	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:34:00 - [48] - Quote Well... we kinda did check it out. There's a lot of "This is what I'm trying to do. I understand what you want, but this is what I'm trying to do instead." See, that's where communication breaks down. We said our piece, he said his piece, and the overall impression is he's going to keep going with his plan regardless of whether or not the community wants it. It's pretty difficult to carry on a conversation in that manner. So, this is a grander gesture of rejection. It's not like I wanted to make one of these.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:35:00 - [49] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: CCP Saberwing wrote: I wrote this on my Twitter, but just as an FYI: "Sigh...petitions on forums. I appreciate the effort but they don't really accomplish much and aren't accurately representative of sentiment." Seriously, /signing things doesn't accomplish anything. There's literally a dedicated thread for interacting with CCP Z relating to Progression Stickied to the top of this subforum. Check it out, bros! Are you saying we can't post in both threads? I'm heartbroken, Saberwing. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 457	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:36:00 - [50] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: It's not like I wanted to make one of these. Yet you did and it didn't help a bit :D CCP Rouge confirms your stuff will be moved from DUST to LEGION. Stop stupid biomassing.


CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:36:00 - [51] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Well... we kinda did check it out. There's a lot of "This is what I'm trying to do. I understand what you want, but this is what I'm trying to do instead." See, that's where communication breaks down. We said our piece, he said his piece, and the overall impression is he's going to keep going with his plan regardless of whether or not the community wants it. It's pretty difficult to carry on a conversation in that manner. So, this is a grander gesture of rejection. It's not like I wanted to make one of these. Petitions don't accomplish anything because they don't accurately represent any sentiment. It automatically disqualifies people who would disagree with what you're saying, and even then, you're already selecting from a limited sample pool of people! (those that currently play DUST, understand the Progression system, etc). Internet petitionz r bad. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4105	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:37:00 - [52] - Quote Alright, so how would you recommend we deal with a developer who seems disinterested in using any feedback that doesn't agree with his initial vision?

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4639	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:38:00 - [53] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Alright, so how would you recommend we deal with a developer who seems disinterested in using any feedback that doesn't agree with his initial vision? He's not disinterested at all - he's still interacting and discussing with you guys? I'd recommend doing it through constructive dialogue with the developer himself rather than creating an arbitrary petition. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 4108	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:46:00 - [54] - Quote Well, I'll go back to waiting but I am really not very optimistic from the exchanges ive seen so far. I'll try to be a little more patient with this. Just saying though, the devs of old would back my petitions in a heartbeat. I guess the new school crowd just doesn't have what it takes to get with the movement...
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1566	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:46:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Alright, so how would you recommend we deal with a developer who seems disinterested in using any feedback that doesn't agree with his initial vision? He's not disinterested at all - he's still interacting and discussing with you guys? I'd recommend doing it through constructive dialogue with the developer himself rather than creating an arbitrary petition. I'm sure you would say that. We who have been at the receiving end of his stubbornness feel differently. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 570	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:52:00 - [56] - Quote I truly enjoy the progression system and customization which are currently a part of Dust. Of all the things that I thought Legion was attempting to address, I did not suspect it would be in this area. This is something about Dust that a lot of people like. Why are you pushing for an overhaul?
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 2497	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:54:00 - [57] - Quote +1 for the current system, tweak the current system don't remove it

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4640	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:57:00 - [58] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: I truly enjoy the progression system and customization which are currently a part of Dust. Of all the things that I thought Legion was attempting to address, I did not suspect it would be in this area. This is something about Dust that a lot of people like. Why are you pushing for an overhaul? Let's please discuss this in the appropriate thread (stickied here). It is something that current DUST players may find understandable and accesssible, yes. But that doesn't appropriately represent the vast number of people that jump in to the game and are simply overwhelmed, and drop off. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1569	Posted - 2014.05.15 04:59:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: SirManBoy wrote: I truly enjoy the progression system and customization which are currently a part of Dust. Of all the things that I thought Legion was attempting to address, I did not suspect it would be in this area. This is something about Dust that a lot of people like. Why are you pushing for an overhaul? Let's please discuss this in the appropriate thread (stickied here). It is something that current DUST players may find understandable and accesssible, yes. But that doesn't appropriately represent the vast number of people that jump in to the game and are simply overwhelmed, and drop off. That's not the system's fault. The reason they don't understand it is because it's poorly presented. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 549	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:13:00 - [60] - Quote Petitions are a perfect way for a community to express their collective interests about a specific subject. It allows people who have the same opinion about a certain issue to acknowledge their view by supporting the view of another. Some people are not into typing elaborate posts that get eventually ignored or trolled. A simple: / Signed show that they support what the petitioner is trying to accomplish. The only reason why they are irreverent are because you CCP devs choose to disregard them. Which is utter bullcrap. If someone else feels the opposite of the petitioner's view they can start their own and see how many people rally behind their point of view. Petitions can be one of the best ways to gauge a community's overall perspective and shared opinions. By saying they don't matter is like saying the opinions of those involved don't matter. Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*

Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 981	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:20:00 - [61] - Quote Sure, why not. Signed. DUST (Legion?) should be more like EVE, not less. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4644	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:29:00 - [62] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: Petitions are a perfect way for a community to express their collective interests about a specific subject. It allows people who have the same opinion about a certain issue to acknowledge their view by supporting the view of another. Some people are not into typing elaborate posts that get eventually ignored or trolled. A simple: / Signed show that they support what the petitioner is trying to accomplish. The only reason why they are irreverent are because you CCP devs choose to disregard them. Which is utter bullcrap. If someone else feels the opposite of the petitioner's view they can start their own and see how many people rally behind their point of view. Petitions can be one of the best ways to gauge a community's overall perspective and shared opinions. By saying they don't matter is like saying the opinions of those involved don't matter. Doesn't look like you read my previous posts before replying. I explained why Forum Petitions are not an accurate representation of Community sentiment. They absolutely do not gauge overall perspective and shared opinions by their very nature. It's a self-selecting sample pool (people don't really sign "against" a proposal). Additionally, their very placement on these forums already limits participation to those invested and with an understanding of the Progression system (so much so, that they post on our forums. Forums represent ~10% of any total Community investment. So, we're generally talking the super hardcore. I'm not discounting your personal opinion, but internet petitions aren't serious business and I sigh when I see them. CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1574	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:39:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Saberwing wrote: but internet petitions aren't serious business and I sigh when I see them. You know what is serious business? Your playerbase. I suggest you start paying more attention to it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 553	Posted - 2014.05.15 05:58:00 - [64] - Quote Wow, man.... Even is it was 3-4 people who /sign any petition it sure as hell means something to them. What you just said essentially is because the petition doesn't meet your personal standards of community communication that every single person's opinion who made the effort to sign said petition doesn't matter. Edit: Oops, Saberwing here. Instead of replying I edited your post. Honest mistake, I tried to paste back as much as I could. Fail! Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*

CCP Saberwing C C P C C P Alliance 4645	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:04:00 - [65] - Quote TrueXer0z wrote: Wow, man.... Even is it was 3-4 people who /sign any petition it sure as hell means something to them. What you just said essentially is because the petition doesn't meet your personal standards of community communication that every single person's opinion who made the effort to sign said petition doesn't matter. Not at all. Don't try and misquote me I specifically said this: CCP Saberwing wrote: I'm not discounting your personal opinion What I was expressing is how the medium of internet petitions, particularly on forums, are subject to bias by their very nature. Edit: This is what I meant to post as a reply. Doh! CCP Saberwing // DUST 514 Community Manager // @kanafchian

TrueXer0z DUST University Ivy League 554	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:18:00 - [66] - Quote Petitions are supposed to be biased. They gather collective interests. They are not meant for debate. People who sign are saying. "I DON'T like the CCP z progression system." They are just expressing it with a /signed. If 500 people signed this thread then what? Would it still be something glanced at but overlooked? Or would you see the cry to be heard by those people as legitimate. Legitimacy is the real issue here. The venue in which a voice is heard should not let the point that has attempted to be made any less legitimate. The fact alone that any individual post has any type of constructive way of expressing their opinion should never be sighed about or shrugged off. That includes the individuals who simply /Signed Director, Dust University @TrueXer0z *Kevall Longstride - CPM1*
Unit-775 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:34:00 - [67] - Quote Instead of forcing us to post in a discussion threadnought and telling us petitions are bad. How about you guys from CCP doing a poll about it ?
Faquira Bleuetta Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 394	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:37:00 - [68] - Quote Signed +1
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2699	Posted - 2014.05.15 06:57:00 - [69] - Quote Signed. Do not force us into roles. Do not waste time on revamping the system from scratch. Use that time to design a UI tooltip for the NPE. And for the love of god, do not ever let item classifications like common/uncommon/rare EVER be mentioned again in the context of New Eden. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2701	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:46:00 - [70] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: There's a lot of "This is what I'm trying to do. I understand what you want, but this is what I'm trying to do instead." This is exactly what I meant when posting this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158859#post2158859 He doesnt take our concerns into consideration. Why should we even bother giving feedback now? If you want to listen to us, listen. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1577	Posted - 2014.05.15 07:54:00 - [71] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: There's a lot of "This is what I'm trying to do. I understand what you want, but this is what I'm trying to do instead." This is exactly what I meant when posting this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158859#post2158859 He doesnt take our concerns into consideration. Why should we even bother giving feedback now? If you want to listen to us, listen. Chances are, he just wants us to spit out ideas that work well with his vision, take those suggestions, and ignore the rest of the feedback. It's a smart thing to do for a game developer, though I still hate him for it. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2702	Posted - 2014.05.15 08:13:00 - [72] - Quote Ulysses Knapse wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: There's a lot of "This is what I'm trying to do. I understand what you want, but this is what I'm trying to do instead." This is exactly what I meant when posting this: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158859#post2158859 He doesnt take our concerns into consideration. Why should we even bother giving feedback now? If you want to listen to us, listen. Chances are, he just wants us to spit out ideas that work well with his vision, take those suggestions, and ignore the rest of the feedback. It's a smart thing to do for a game developer, though I still hate him for it. Its a strategy CCP uses consistently when developing Dust 514, why would they change for EVE: Legion? And no, I am not tinfoiling here. There has been to many examples of this happening earlier. This message was brought to you by the PC master race.
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2095	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:04:00 - [73] - Quote signed PSN: RationalSpark
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2095	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:13:00 - [74] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: signed Our current system needs some love: pruning/modifying the dead 'unlock' skills, making basic frames viable, especially for new players. Couple that relatively small bit of work with a training overlay and we've got a system that works for everybody, regardless of their involvement, intelligence or their unfamiliarity with New Eden. It also satisfies and rewards experienced players. Win-win. PSN: RationalSpark
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 1227	Posted - 2014.05.15 09:39:00 - [75] - Quote Good thing that CCP is keeping DUST 514 running, so that when the abomination that is Legion dies in a couple of years they still got the DUST 514 code-base to which to port the non-derpy parts.

CCP Blowout C C P C C P Alliance 580	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:07:00 - [76] - Quote lol Part man, part Internet.

Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1584	Posted - 2014.05.15 10:22:00 - [77] - Quote CCP Blowout wrote: lol Because even developers need to make unproductive posts on occasion. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
TechMechMeds KLEENEX INC. 3360	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:17:00 - [78] - Quote Signed yes. Eve Legion FTW!
TechMechMeds KLEENEX INC. 3360	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:19:00 - [79] - Quote I think that skills 2 and 4 should always contribute and not be a sink as well. Eve Legion FTW!
TechMechMeds KLEENEX INC. 3360	Posted - 2014.05.15 11:22:00 - [80] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: To be clear, I do give CCP Z credit for trying to do something new for the game. This is definitely not an attack on his efforts, it just isn't a good fit for this game at all. Unlocking stuff and it being infinite because magic does not appeal to me in the slightest and would take a whole other dimension out of the game. Eve Legion FTW!

gbh08 Intara Direct Action Caldari State 224	Posted - 2014.05.15 14:46:00 - [81] - Quote aye skill tree dont sound that great, as already said, I dont want to waste sp unlocking suits that im not going to use just to get to the gun I want
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 512	Posted - 2014.05.15 15:51:00 - [82] - Quote The current skill tree fits very well with how I look for new skills and check on my current ones. This is something that should definitely be improved through evolution rather than revolution.
Tweaksz Heaven's Lost Property Negative-Feedback 100	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:00:00 - [83] - Quote +1 and Signed Pill Popping Madness!
Kigurosaka Laaksonen DUST University Ivy League 988	Posted - 2014.05.15 16:40:00 - [84] - Quote C'mon, OP. Edit your post with a list of the names of people who have /signed. Saberwing says it doesn't matter, but do it just for giggles. DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/ EVE Buddy Invite - Too damn long. Ask me for it.
Luk Manag of Terror TRE GAFFEL 507	Posted - 2014.05.15 18:02:00 - [85] - Quote He needs to actually consider how significant a PC move will be, and not just arrogantly ask for 'high level non-specific feedback' and dismiss it outright. We get it, things need to change in a major way. Everything I have seen so far is a recipe for failure. Less customizable, more SP sinks, and prototype BPOs for all! facepalm Luk Manag - is in favor of change, but not CCP Z's changes. He needs help. There will be bullets. ACR+SMG [CEO of Terror]*
Karl Koekwaus 227	Posted - 2014.05.15 18:03:00 - [86] - Quote /signed doing stuff that like that gives the game WOW like gear grind stuff :( also, lol respecs so bad. Micheal Jackson died for my sins
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2097	Posted - 2014.05.16 02:02:00 - [87] - Quote Karl Koekwaus wrote: /signed doing stuff that like that gives the game WOW like gear grind stuff :( also, lol respecs so bad. The truly bone-chilling implication of all this is that DUST 514 may very well end up being the best shooter that New Eden ever had. PSN: RationalSpark
Raydeus Christin Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 4	Posted - 2014.05.16 02:20:00 - [88] - Quote +1 Signed. Sorry, I may be very excited about Legion and really like the concept, but the one thing that sets EVE and Dust apart (and better) is the way progression is handled. I understand what they are trying to accomplish, and it would make perfect sense for another IP. But it makes absolutely no sense for a game set in the EVE universe. I'm not really interest in playing World of Legioncraft.
Selinate deux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 186	Posted - 2014.05.16 02:36:00 - [89] - Quote He posted a thread about this topic already. It's not even set in stone and is barely even drawn in the sand. Just post in the thread and try and tell him directly what you want. This thread is completely useless.
Aoena Rays Bragian Order Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2014.05.16 02:37:00 - [90] - Quote Selinate deux wrote: He posted a thread about this topic already. It's not even set in stone and is barely even drawn in the sand. Just post in the thread and try and tell him directly what you want. This thread is completely useless. Agreed. But stubborn kids here will never stop "signing petitions" :D http://i.imgur.com/x5HPYOd.gif

Vell0cet Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad. 2013	Posted - 2014.05.16 03:11:00 - [91] - Quote Signed. Respect to CCP Z, he's in a tough spot trying to reinvent an unprofitable game. I respect trying to bring accessibility to the game and making an awesome new player experience. Unfortunately from what little we know of his proposals, it seems like the old player experience will be pretty painful. Best PvE idea ever!
Negris Albedo Nuevo Atlas Corporation 71	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:38:00 - [92] - Quote /Signed.
Nod Keras Thief Guild 105	Posted - 2014.05.16 13:43:00 - [93] - Quote x Can i teabak ur RE?
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1424	Posted - 2014.05.16 14:18:00 - [94] - Quote Signed. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Ulysses Knapse Knapse and Co. Mercenary Firm 1650	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:05:00 - [95] - Quote Aoena Rays wrote: Selinate deux wrote: He posted a thread about this topic already. It's not even set in stone and is barely even drawn in the sand. Just post in the thread and try and tell him directly what you want. This thread is completely useless. Agreed. But stubborn kids here will never stop "signing petitions" :D Are you saying you wouldn't express your opinions if it were the other way around, and something you really liked in DUST 514 was being replaced with an objectively worse system? If you are, I don't believe you. I am become Legion, the destroyer of bunnies.
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 58	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:31:00 - [96] - Quote Signed. It seems like he's bent on making DUST/Legion more MMORPG / WOW like. I hate MMORPGs. DUST's progression system is far from perfect, but this is the wrong direction. Here are some views from EVE players: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=344460 I want to see what is being planned on paper before it's even done. I reject what I have seen so far. If a respec is a solution in this new system it's broken from the start. And no, making the respec cost something is not a solution either. It should not be necessary. If the skill progression system has to change at all the solution is not to make it more like an MMORPG. The solution is to make it less like one and more like an FPS. Get rid of skill progression all together. Allow anyone to use a weapon if they can pay for it. Make the cost of death the cost of the equipment. The better stuff you bring to battle the more risky it should be. For things like reloading make it where you get better at doing it as you keep doing it.
Cyrus Militani Leon Conglomerate 58	Posted - 2014.05.16 16:44:00 - [97] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: I would highly recommend you guys to post in the official Progression Discussion thread rather than making "petition threads" signing for something that is still on a very high level design concept. Post your feedback there, and CCP Z will listen. Petitions don't accomplish much, but direct feedback does through reasonable and constructive discussion. Here's the problem. We don't want an MMORPG. From CCP Z's plans, it seems like that is exactly what is happening. From what I've seen so far any complaints against this are being ignored. Anything that remotely seems to support this idea are being acknowledged. We don't want an emotional attachment to our gear. We don't want epic gear to make us bubbly inside. We want strategy and hardship. If I want an edge I will pay my hard earned ISK for it. If I die and loose that gear it should hurt my (virtual) wallet. That is what makes DUST a success. If I am dying a lot with expensive gear and I choose to keep using it I should go broke. I should be driven to be as economical with my fittings as possible. If you want to expand on DUST's strengths, expand on the economical aspects. Heck, get rid of skill progression all together. Allow me to use the most expensive gear that I can afford. If I die with this gear I should feel the weight of the loss. If you allow players to craft gear, allow the market to decide the price of that gear. If something is OP it will be expensive as well, and players will feel gratification from killing someone using expensive gear with their cheaper fittings.


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