so then maybe av should be fixed before we even consider discussing the only viable tactic against vehicles?

I will admit I am biased... I don't drive tanks, but I did skill into swarms which are almost useless, so if the only way I can delay a tanker going 60/2 is to collide with him why shouldn't I?

and what right do tankers have to say to remove it when they are so OP on the field?

You're not a pilot are you? Try to believe it's fair for investing 10+ million sp into vehicles just to use an ADS viably, only to rammed by a militia gorgon that is also not even a tenth of the price in isk. Also, ADS are not advanced frames, they are standard. They are the same as unlocking an assault suit when getting level 3 in the basic frames, which also unlocks logistics, which are obviously not advanced suits.

Also, militia shotguns are terrible against heavies, and the shotgunner is quite easy to kill. Awareness... practice it.

My response is merely metered on the ridiculous claim that using collision as a tactic is somehow an "exploit" because it's one of the few ways to kill a vehicle with any modicum of success.

Dude, I've got 38 million skill points invested in infantry suits. If I run proto, I'm spending half as much as an ADS on one suit. And I guarantee you I'm more than twice as likely to lose my suit as your ADS. There's all sorts of completely bullkitten ways to die in DUST. You shouldn't be immune to that in the air either. This is an FPS. You should go into EVERY match, expecting to die. If you aren't losing your ADS every match, it's probably because you're overpowered.

There's a huge veteran/newbie disparity that is hurting the game. For an ADS pilot to go forth and cry that his skillpoints should make him immune to newbies is downright crazy.

Temias: I haven't seen a vehicle die to swarms since 1.6. Forge guns are functional now though. If you have Proficiency 4 in them or what have you anyways.

Cheap tactics, like it or not, belong in the game. I actually don't think dropships should dogfight, as we should have fighters for that. And that is coming at some point. Dropships should be flying bricks that are bad at aerial combat, but ramming is a good option for them if they need it.

It shouldn't require any more skill to kill a pilot than it requires to kill my dropsuit. Fact.

Temias: I haven't seen a vehicle die to swarms since 1.6. Forge guns are functional now though. If you have Proficiency 4 in them or what have you anyways.

Cheap tactics, like it or not, belong in the game. I actually don't think dropships should dogfight, as we should have fighters for that. And that is coming at some point. Dropships should be flying bricks that are bad at aerial combat, but ramming is a good option for them if they need it.

It shouldn't require any more skill to kill a pilot than it requires to kill my dropsuit. Fact.

Cheap tactics are an integral part of the game. Unless you'd like to remove remote explosives, grenades, cloaks, forge guns, mass drivers, sniper rifles, and um... ADSes and tanks.

The idea that a proto heavy suit is more durable than a dropship is hilarious and ridiculous. It takes me... one shot to kill a heavy suit with my forge gun. Any heavy suit, by the way. No dropship dies in less than three. No dropship requires more than ONE shot before they're out of range to go heal back up. The ONLY time it's even possible to kill an ADS is when the ADS pilot isn't watching their health bar, and sticks around longer than they should've. If you're dying in an ADS, you should be reevaluating your playstyle. It takes like three seconds to outrange any AV weapon in the game.

I haven't seen a dropship destroyed before the pilot can react to it since... well, it's been a while, I can't remember. I also haven't found a heavy that didn't die to my forge in one shot yet, unless I only hit them with splash.

I don't think it's fair dropships are naturally more robust than other players, so let's make a deal: We'll get rid of collison damage when I can one shot your dropship with my forge gun.

So a machine should only be as tough as a clone that is at least 8 times smaller? Or are you trying to make a joke? I can't tell because it's such an absurd argument. Keep in mind, that the pilots mainly want a decrease in collision damage, that is to say, not a full nullification. Or a price reduction.

Yea a ADS can run at the first sign of AV and prolly never die, but so can any suit.

The biggest issue for me is not that you can swat me, it's the cost of the ship that's bringing me down. Even with a basic turret the thing is still near 400k isk (you wouldn't last with basic shields and could rarely engage with basic hardeners so I use high tier armor).

There is just no room to lose more than one every 3-5 games, and if you are running at the drop of a hat then you will never make any isk.

So a machine should only be as tough as a clone that is at least 8 times smaller? Or are you trying to make a joke? I can't tell because it's such an absurd argument. Keep in mind, that the pilots mainly want a decrease in collision damage, that is to say, not a full nullification. Or a price reduction.

Price reduction is fine. ISK doesn't work for balance. I'm okay if every vehicle costs the same as a dropsuit. But vehicles should die as easily as dropsuits. There's no game design where a player should be able to be better than another player ALL THE TIME. That's where tanks and ADSes sit. They have more health, more damage, they move faster, and less enemy players have the skills or fits to damage them.

Right now, everyone not skilled in vehicles is an idiot, because of the sheer ridiculousness of how OP vehicles are. Vehicles are currently superior to dropsuits in every way, and vehicle users in this thread are crying for someone to nerf their only vulnerability? It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy.

Vehicles will not be balanced until they die as often as dropsuits do, on average.

Shotguns (with cloaks), sniper rifles, forge guns. Also tanks and ADSes, which you can rarely run from, and will definitely one-shot you. So... no, not like any suit.



My AV fit runs as much as 250,000 ISK a suit, and I lose four or five of them trying to kill one ADS. Please, shelve this complaint, it's really sad.



You should be dying at least once a game. This is a first-person shooter. There should not be someone who is nearly impossible to kill in any given game. This idea is downright ludicrous.

Shotguns (with cloaks), sniper rifles, forge guns. Also tanks and ADSes, which you can rarely run from, and will definitely one-shot you. So... no, not like any suit.



My AV fit runs as much as 250,000 ISK a suit, and I lose four or five of them trying to kill one ADS. Please, shelve this complaint, it's really sad.



You should be dying at least once a game. This is a first-person shooter. There should not be someone who is nearly impossible to kill in any given game. This idea is downright ludicrous.

That's a fair perspective. If vehicles remained in their current power, what would make you feel better about death from them? Are you frustrated about possible KDR effects? Or the amount of isk you need to combat vehicles? Imagine it were more like cod, were KDR and isk lose all their properties. Would you still find vehicles offensive? And to make our conversation clear, you are only talking about vehicles in pubs , PC, or both. As they interact much differently in either type of game.

How I feel everytime I call in my ADS which gets instantly shot down...

Your ADS can kill every player in the game. You can kill scouts, logis, heavies, assault suits, etc. with relative ease.

Meanwhile, most of those suits cannot kill you. At all.

It's not about the KDR, but it is about the kill. If you kill me, I may have a distinct desire to kill you back. How do you think it feels to be killed by someone you have no functional ability to get revenge on? Vehicle drivers have never really been in that position, they've always been able to kill infantry. But only a small subcategory of infantry can even damage vehicles.

Speaking of CoD (a bad example, because there's not really player-driven vehicles), look at Titanfall (made by the CoD devs, actually). V/AV balance in that game is a model example that CCP should look to. Vehicles feel giant, powerful, etc. But they're completely balanced with infantry. You might note that in Titanfall every single player is always carrying an AV weapon, and there's even a method for you to open a vulnerability on an enemy titan that will let you kill it even with your sidearm! That's right, every single player has two different ways to combat a Titan as infantry. And that's not even counting the ability to call in their own Titan.

In DUST, vehicles are a special pony class that gets to be better in every way, and also takes drastically reduced damage from most other classes. It's incredibly amazing that vehicles were ever made in this game in the way that they are. And with the exception of LAVs and dropships for rapid transport, vehicles don't have a *defined role*. Tanks and ADSes are simply "superior dropsuits", one of which can also fly. Meanwhile, snipers can only do long-range combat, shotguns can only do CQC, and swarms can only do AV. At the same time, tanks and ADSes can do... CQC, long range combat, AND anti-vehicle, all with one fit.

The reality is that the game won't be balanced as long as it takes a tank less time to kill me than for me to kill it, even if I spec specifically into the role of killing tanks. There shouldn't be anywhere vehicles "easily murder" other players. That's the thing. Vehicles don't have anywhere near the challenges that infantry face.

The reason this topic has gotten to a more general sense is this: In a game where vehicles are already the most protected, difficult to destroy assets on the field, what in the world is someone doing asking for a nerf for the single vulnerability that vehicles actually have? Every dedicated vehicle user should take a month off and play infantry. Very few of them will survive the month. It's agonizingly painful being mowed down by vehicles in every other match and having almost nothing you can do about it.

I can't fly a dropship even well enough to jihad it into an ADS, but if I could, I would. Because I have almost no other options. With Proficiency 4 into forge guns, I only get a kill when the ADS is being really really dumb. Because they have way too much opportunity to get away. And it's ridiculous that I have to die several times a match to an ADS, and dropship pilots believe that only dying once every three to five matches is balanced.