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Remove vehicle-to-vehicle collision

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Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2073	Posted - 2014.04.21 17:19:00 - [1] - Quote Ramming in DUST is a completely valid tactic, and what makes sense in EVE, auto-thrusters to avoid collison, doesn't really make sense on the ground. Vehicle drivers should cry less about the fact that they're nearly indestructible except against other vehicles, and accept that other vehicles, including cheap ones, can and should kill them. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2073	Posted - 2014.04.21 18:33:00 - [2] - Quote Kilo, gear level should offer an advantage, but not that huge of one that being rammed into doesn't destroy your vehicle. Skill and gameplay need to be what wins out, not gear and money. And suiciding a cheap vehicle to destroy a more expensive one is a perfectly valid gameplay tactic. Militia suits and weapons kill proto suits all the time. This is another instance of vehicle drivers assuming they should be immune to death and loss. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2077	Posted - 2014.04.21 20:28:00 - [3] - Quote Shotguns are a counter to pretty much every heavy suit. Heck, REs are a counter to pretty much every dropsuit period. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2082	Posted - 2014.04.21 21:45:00 - [4] - Quote I think if militia dropships can't ram advanced dropships successfully than militia shotguns shouldn't work on my proto heavy suit. It's just unfair that a cheaper weapon can kill me. How dare they. (And note, it really isn't any more or less effective than a proto shotgun. I'm dead either way, to be honest.) I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2084	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:14:00 - [5] - Quote Dropships are roughly the same mass. Whether specced out with the best gear or not, they should be destructible by each other in collision, regardless of fitting. Meanwhile, with your frigate-to-battleship mechanic, I'd agree a dropship should not kill an MCC on collision. Bear in mind, that a 1 mil ISK badly fit frigate CAN kill a 20 mil ISK frigate. The battleship/frigate example, to be blunt, was dumb. ;) Air is big, dropship pilots should be mindful of things around them. If they can't adequately do that, I'd rather give them more tools to detect incoming threats, rather than take away suicide ships and jihad jeeps and the like. These are the sorts of tools that allow newbies to strike at veterans even without that massive pile of skill points. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2085	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:08:00 - [6] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I can appreciate that having some sort of physical reaction is a must..... but I...simply put find this to be an exploit that players either not competent in vehicles or AV can exploit to ruin the game play of those who are..... As current balance makes all vehicle use practically an exploit, you should really enjoy what you have before you get nerfed further. ;) I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2085	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:19:00 - [7] - Quote Seymor Krelborn wrote: except tanks massacring infantry does ruin the game for infantry Pretty much this. Anything that helps even that gap, such as one of the few ways to actually kill a tank or derpship without being a dedicated vehicle driver is well worthy of our continued support as a game mechanic. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2085	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:25:00 - [8] - Quote Unintentional mechanics are what makes New Eden what it is. It's a sandbox. The whole idea is for people to use creativity and smarts to defeat otherwise insurmountable foes. Jihad jeeps, ramming derpships, that's the very essence of this game. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2086	Posted - 2014.04.22 04:42:00 - [9] - Quote A pretty large portion of the strategies used in EVE were not intended by the developers. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2087	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:33:00 - [10] - Quote SteelDark Knight wrote: True Adamance wrote: You are showing a particular bias that suggests to me you aren't looking at this mechanic objectively. This. Also, one balance issue does not justify other broken balance issues. My response is merely metered on the ridiculous claim that using collision as a tactic is somehow an "exploit" because it's one of the few ways to kill a vehicle with any modicum of success. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2120	Posted - 2014.04.23 07:06:00 - [11] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: As am I. If you want to crash and bump me into the environment to kill me then ok, good for you. As long as it is not the act of the enemy dropship crashing into me that kills me, but rather the colliding into the environment, then there is nothing wrong. If you intersect violently with another dropship, you should die. Period. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2125	Posted - 2014.04.23 13:56:00 - [12] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I think if militia dropships can't ram advanced dropships successfully than militia shotguns shouldn't work on my proto heavy suit. It's just unfair that a cheaper weapon can kill me. How dare they. (And note, it really isn't any more or less effective than a proto shotgun. I'm dead either way, to be honest.) You're not a pilot are you? Try to believe it's fair for investing 10+ million sp into vehicles just to use an ADS viably, only to rammed by a militia gorgon that is also not even a tenth of the price in isk. Also, ADS are not advanced frames, they are standard. They are the same as unlocking an assault suit when getting level 3 in the basic frames, which also unlocks logistics, which are obviously not advanced suits. Also, militia shotguns are terrible against heavies, and the shotgunner is quite easy to kill. Awareness... practice it. Dude, I've got 38 million skill points invested in infantry suits. If I run proto, I'm spending half as much as an ADS on one suit. And I guarantee you I'm more than twice as likely to lose my suit as your ADS. There's all sorts of completely bullkitten ways to die in DUST. You shouldn't be immune to that in the air either. This is an FPS. You should go into EVERY match, expecting to die. If you aren't losing your ADS every match, it's probably because you're overpowered. There's a huge veteran/newbie disparity that is hurting the game. For an ADS pilot to go forth and cry that his skillpoints should make him immune to newbies is downright crazy. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2125	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:28:00 - [13] - Quote Temias: I haven't seen a vehicle die to swarms since 1.6. Forge guns are functional now though. If you have Proficiency 4 in them or what have you anyways. Cheap tactics, like it or not, belong in the game. I actually don't think dropships should dogfight, as we should have fighters for that. And that is coming at some point. Dropships should be flying bricks that are bad at aerial combat, but ramming is a good option for them if they need it. It shouldn't require any more skill to kill a pilot than it requires to kill my dropsuit. Fact. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2125	Posted - 2014.04.23 14:47:00 - [14] - Quote Cheap tactics are an integral part of the game. Unless you'd like to remove remote explosives, grenades, cloaks, forge guns, mass drivers, sniper rifles, and um... ADSes and tanks. The idea that a proto heavy suit is more durable than a dropship is hilarious and ridiculous. It takes me... one shot to kill a heavy suit with my forge gun. Any heavy suit, by the way. No dropship dies in less than three. No dropship requires more than ONE shot before they're out of range to go heal back up. The ONLY time it's even possible to kill an ADS is when the ADS pilot isn't watching their health bar, and sticks around longer than they should've. If you're dying in an ADS, you should be reevaluating your playstyle. It takes like three seconds to outrange any AV weapon in the game. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2125	Posted - 2014.04.23 15:27:00 - [15] - Quote I haven't seen a dropship destroyed before the pilot can react to it since... well, it's been a while, I can't remember. I also haven't found a heavy that didn't die to my forge in one shot yet, unless I only hit them with splash. I don't think it's fair dropships are naturally more robust than other players, so let's make a deal: We'll get rid of collison damage when I can one shot your dropship with my forge gun. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2137	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:32:00 - [16] - Quote Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote: Yea a ADS can run at the first sign of AV and prolly never die, but so can any suit. Shotguns (with cloaks), sniper rifles, forge guns. Also tanks and ADSes, which you can rarely run from, and will definitely one-shot you. So... no, not like any suit. Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote: The biggest issue for me is not that you can swat me, it's the cost of the ship that's bringing me down. Even with a basic turret the thing is still near 400k isk (you wouldn't last with basic shields and could rarely engage with basic hardeners so I use high tier armor). My AV fit runs as much as 250,000 ISK a suit, and I lose four or five of them trying to kill one ADS. Please, shelve this complaint, it's really sad. Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote: There is just no room to lose more than one every 3-5 games, and if you are running at the drop of a hat then you will never make any isk. You should be dying at least once a game. This is a first-person shooter. There should not be someone who is nearly impossible to kill in any given game. This idea is downright ludicrous. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2137	Posted - 2014.04.23 19:35:00 - [17] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I haven't seen a dropship destroyed before the pilot can react to it since... well, it's been a while, I can't remember. I also haven't found a heavy that didn't die to my forge in one shot yet, unless I only hit them with splash. I don't think it's fair dropships are naturally more robust than other players, so let's make a deal: We'll get rid of collison damage when I can one shot your dropship with my forge gun. So a machine should only be as tough as a clone that is at least 8 times smaller? Or are you trying to make a joke? I can't tell because it's such an absurd argument. Keep in mind, that the pilots mainly want a decrease in collision damage, that is to say, not a full nullification. Or a price reduction. Price reduction is fine. ISK doesn't work for balance. I'm okay if every vehicle costs the same as a dropsuit. But vehicles should die as easily as dropsuits. There's no game design where a player should be able to be better than another player ALL THE TIME. That's where tanks and ADSes sit. They have more health, more damage, they move faster, and less enemy players have the skills or fits to damage them. Right now, everyone not skilled in vehicles is an idiot, because of the sheer ridiculousness of how OP vehicles are. Vehicles are currently superior to dropsuits in every way, and vehicle users in this thread are crying for someone to nerf their only vulnerability? It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Vehicles will not be balanced until they die as often as dropsuits do, on average. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2138	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:18:00 - [18] - Quote Varjac Theobroma Montenegro wrote: That's a fair perspective. If vehicles remained in their current power, what would make you feel better about death from them? Are you frustrated about possible KDR effects? Or the amount of isk you need to combat vehicles? Imagine it were more like cod, were KDR and isk lose all their properties. Would you still find vehicles offensive? And to make our conversation clear, you are only talking about vehicles in pubs , PC, or both. As they interact much differently in either type of game. It's not about the KDR, but it is about the kill. If you kill me, I may have a distinct desire to kill you back. How do you think it feels to be killed by someone you have no functional ability to get revenge on? Vehicle drivers have never really been in that position, they've always been able to kill infantry. But only a small subcategory of infantry can even damage vehicles. Speaking of CoD (a bad example, because there's not really player-driven vehicles), look at Titanfall (made by the CoD devs, actually). V/AV balance in that game is a model example that CCP should look to. Vehicles feel giant, powerful, etc. But they're completely balanced with infantry. You might note that in Titanfall every single player is always carrying an AV weapon, and there's even a method for you to open a vulnerability on an enemy titan that will let you kill it even with your sidearm! That's right, every single player has two different ways to combat a Titan as infantry. And that's not even counting the ability to call in their own Titan. In DUST, vehicles are a special pony class that gets to be better in every way, and also takes drastically reduced damage from most other classes. It's incredibly amazing that vehicles were ever made in this game in the way that they are. And with the exception of LAVs and dropships for rapid transport, vehicles don't have a defined role. Tanks and ADSes are simply "superior dropsuits", one of which can also fly. Meanwhile, snipers can only do long-range combat, shotguns can only do CQC, and swarms can only do AV. At the same time, tanks and ADSes can do... CQC, long range combat, AND anti-vehicle, all with one fit. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2138	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:47:00 - [19] - Quote Oh, I forgot to answer your first and last questions, Varjac. At their current power, I'd have to expect that vehicles require a number of players to use them equivalent to the power they have. For instance, I am fine with a tank requiring three AV working together to reliably kill it. But if that's the case, tanks should require three people aboard. In a game where each team is limited to 16v16, you can't bum rush folks with lots of weaker classes to beat a bigger one. So each player needs to equal a single player. I have a problem where a single player is allowed to be more powerful than another player wholesale. So, if you want to maintain the current power of vehicles, they should require more players to operate them well. (For tanks, decoupling the main gun from the driver's seat would be a big step in this direction.) With regards to pubs vs. PC balance, the issues I'm seeing crop up primarily in pubs, but are sometimes seen in PC as well. The issue with pubs is that there's no guarantee of vehicle support or equivalent vehicle support on either side. And since it isn't your team, there's nothing you can do to ensure you have adequate vehicle support unless your particular squad is the vehicle support. In PC, you pretty much have to assemble your team with vehicle support in order to match up with the enemy's vehicle support. If you don't, you will see the same problems people see in pubs. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2138	Posted - 2014.04.23 20:50:00 - [20] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: How I feel everytime I call in my ADS which gets instantly shot down... Your ADS can kill every player in the game. You can kill scouts, logis, heavies, assault suits, etc. with relative ease. Meanwhile, most of those suits cannot kill you. At all. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate

Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2141	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:13:00 - [21] - Quote Varjac, the point of requiring team play isn't to make them less powerful, the point of teamplay is for that power to come from coordination, rather than a vehicle simply being overpowered. If you have tank gunners and drivers coordinating, it makes sense for them to be as lethal as they are. Long-term, what really needs to happen, is the anti-infantry component of vehicles like tanks needs to be nerfed into oblivion, and them take on a purely anti-vehicle, anti-installation, and anti-barrier role. But for that to make sense, that needs to be a critical part of gameplay, which currently, it's not. The game needs to change to the point where vehicles have a crucial purpose in the progression of the game mode, that doesn't involve infantry slaying. (Essentially, I want tanks to be heavy artillery for assaulting fortress-like defensive emplacements and killing defense turrets that last more than the first 30 seconds of the game.) But until such game modes are possible, tanks and ADSes need to be brought down to realistic proportions of their capabilities for the fact that this is a 16v16 game, and a single player should never be completely superior to another player. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2145	Posted - 2014.04.24 02:05:00 - [22] - Quote The reality is that the game won't be balanced as long as it takes a tank less time to kill me than for me to kill it, even if I spec specifically into the role of killing tanks. There shouldn't be anywhere vehicles "easily murder" other players. That's the thing. Vehicles don't have anywhere near the challenges that infantry face. The reason this topic has gotten to a more general sense is this: In a game where vehicles are already the most protected, difficult to destroy assets on the field, what in the world is someone doing asking for a nerf for the single vulnerability that vehicles actually have? Every dedicated vehicle user should take a month off and play infantry. Very few of them will survive the month. It's agonizingly painful being mowed down by vehicles in every other match and having almost nothing you can do about it. I can't fly a dropship even well enough to jihad it into an ADS, but if I could, I would. Because I have almost no other options. With Proficiency 4 into forge guns, I only get a kill when the ADS is being really really dumb. Because they have way too much opportunity to get away. And it's ridiculous that I have to die several times a match to an ADS, and dropship pilots believe that only dying once every three to five matches is balanced. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2147	Posted - 2014.04.24 04:45:00 - [23] - Quote Temias, I'm quite good with a forge gun, but given how fast dropships can exit my max range, they only die when they're stupid and don't fly off fast enough. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2149	Posted - 2014.04.24 13:46:00 - [24] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: My favorite thing to do when there is a tank is go somewhere the tank isn't. Sure. But the tank runs faster than you do, and sometimes there's nowhere to hide. It's crazy that I can spawn somewhere, and instadie to something I can't even damage. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2161	Posted - 2014.04.25 16:18:00 - [25] - Quote Jihad jeeps are the sort of creative gameplay CCP wants. Learn to deal with them, they're here to stay. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 2161	Posted - 2014.04.25 17:10:00 - [26] - Quote Hecarim Van Hohen wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Jihad jeeps are the sort of creative gameplay CCP wants. Learn to deal with them, they're here to stay. Actually, they weren't intended... don't put words into their mouths. And Soraya Xel didn't say they were intended, only that CCP wants creative gameplay Exactly the point. CCP didn't intend jihad jeeps. But CCP did intend to create a game where players can invent their own tactics and strategies. And jihad jeeps embody the very soul of the game that CCP has told us they want to create. A sandbox. I'd like to be your CPM1 candidate

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