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Dimmu Borgir II
The New Age Outlaws
WINMATAR.
297
   |
Posted - 2014.04.06 19:42:00 -
[61] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:It just amazes me how may people are running around like the solo hero dying to scouts. 1.8 get a squad and work as a team.
Its just over board that amount of fail that is going on and I only here QQ about nerfs. I really hope CCP does not listen to this BS.
I will repeat myself because I am so shocked by it. So many are still running around solo dying to scouts. Sometimes over and over in the same match. What are you thinking?
Blue is good, red is bad, orange you glad you're not red?
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ALPHA DECRIPTER
Dragon-Empire
897
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 19:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
@OP:
It isn't that they play solo but that they don't have mics.
A full squad can still be torn apart if one of the members unable to warn the others.
@Idea of scouts being solo
Yea, scouts are meant to be solo as staying near others would just give away there position. The only real exception to this is the C-Scout as his passives can be shared with his squad and there fore it's like your squad has a permanent 360 scan as long as you're alive.
@idea that cloaks are a crutch
Nah, Monkey MAC said it best so I won't go any farther.
@idea that teamwork is required to defeat a scout.
Not really. Tactics trump anything that this game can throw at you. If you fear you might be getting stalked move into the open and look for the shimmer. That's what I do anyway (yea, scouts tend to stalk other scouts). Scouts rely more on the location of the enemy than anything else. If you are not in a location that the scout can take advantage of they will usually keep there distance.
Does teamwork help? Yea! A C-Scout or G-Logi can detect even cloaked scouts! Keep in mind that scouts enjoy fighting other scouts more than any other race and so we are always happy to jump into a squad if you just ask.
[Disclaimer] All claims about scout behavior is targeted to "real scouts" and not the psychos(lol me) or FoTM scouts.
Scout Tactician
Dance puppets, DANCE!
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Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
240
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 19:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Tek Hound wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:I think it's the same argument as tanks here... I shouldn't have to field a scout to counter the scout.
Exactly just like you shouldn't have to field a heavy to counter a heavy When it comes to cloaks, there are legitimate concerns being buried beneath mountains of QQ and poor sports man ship. But let's get a few things sorted. 1) Cloaks ARE Hard to see. It cannot be denied, cloaks were designed to be hard to see, that is why they are hardto see, if you BELIEVE that they are easy to see then congratulations you might have over sensitive eyes. A good percentage of the population can see more colour tones than the average, you are probably one of those people. 2) Cloaking is not a Cructch Its no more a crutch than dancing on hives, or uplinks on rooftops. Its Annoying, its frustrating, it's not as simple to counter as the person using it would have you believe. But it's not a crutch 3) Aim Assist DOES still work on cloaked entities. I have tested, once you "lock on" to a target aim assist will assist in tracking them. You are now enlightened, use it to your advantage. 4) Cloaks ARE NOT perfect There is still somethings that need to be ironed out with cloaks to stop abuse. 5) Cloaks ARE NOT perfectly balanced. I'm not saying they are HORRENDOUSLY OP, but do you really think NS and WTF would be spamming Caldari Scouts with quite as much regularity if they weren't so effective. 6) Firing before the Cloak decloaks is not an intended mechanic. CCP orginally had a penalty for firing under the effects of a cloak, this would not have been removed if CCP intended to give the current function of quick-swap cloaking to scouts. 7) Giving an Opponent warning your about to 1-Shot Him is NOT a Crutch If you don't at least give the enemy opportunity to swear vengeance on you first it creates the impression that there was nothing that could be done, so they believe it to be OP, however if the Opponent feels they were given fair warning they blame themselves for not being faster enough, the whole interaction requires just a marginal increase in skill for the Assailant, and would probably still give them same result of death 85% of the time. The mojarity of the comunity is just butt hurt and want an easy QQ nerf save.when you play metal gear do you tap every enemy you sneak up on to warn them?no because it defeats the purpose of steath.Its l2p or QQ You actually got some medal or something in MGS4 for dealing with a certain number of alerts before a call was put out for back up. However this is not MGS you are against real people, where that persons perception of the mechanic is important to the retention of the game. You wouldn't be anymore comprimised to the rest of the team, you probably wouldn't even find it that much harder to kill the guy, the majority of ghe time all that will happen is he will jump in 180-¦ and see you pull the trigger before he falls to the floor dead. But that fraction of a second is the difference between him saying 'this is OP and uncounterable' and him saying 'damn scout, need to be faster next time'. The real question is though, if it's that inconsequential to its operation why do you need to defend it so much that you risk the cloak being over-nerfed? Wouldn't it be better to doll out this placebo to the playerbase that will stem QQ and have done with it? Or do you keep fighting and risk loosing it all? Oh and Finally, Take Down Number 2
Cloak is going to get nerf that is a fact.The problem is cloaks a one trick pony with given counters and people QQ.how are you every going to get balance in a game were the majority of the community cries instead of adapting.Cloaks not damage,stat boost,or anything else.The only reason I defend it is because it's sad that the player base can't handle a half@&& cloak.How can you handle more complex tools if you can't even handle the simple ones.I can't tell you how many "plasma cannon crutch" mail I got.This is the community, everything's being balance around kd and pride.This is a sand box stop kicking the sand out
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Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
246
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 19:52:00 -
[64] - Quote
There has been no decent arguments to cloak.I Spend way to much time making QQers look stupid.
1.I cant see them(it's called cloak for a reason)
- if you can see them, when what is the point of a cloak? Seems pretty easy, if everyone cloaked and everyone can see them, them what's the point? If you can see them, why does it matter. Oh that's right cause the rest can't see them.
- Many encounter issues like frame rate, lag, lighting, blue Huey blocking, poor map lining, poor area lighting, stupid red dust, etc... I play on two top of the line 55 and 60 inch TV's and I can't pick up scouts easily. Most players can't either.
2.They killed with a shotgun in shotgun range(really )
- SG are not the problem, they are a balanced weapon. It's how the player got to shotgun range is what matters. The fact he fired nearly two shots while cloaked isn't the issue. Is what short cuts, what advantages did the cloak undeservingly provide that player to get into SG range. There's no problems for un-cloaked scout to flank you, close the gap between him and his prey, then fire a SG into your back/side/head in SG range. The problem is the defensive, then offensive advantages the cloaks gave you before you did it. This shows cloaks reward things theat shouldn't be rewarded and is the first of many anti-cloak or nerf needed to cloaks statements you make lol
3.After they sneak up on me they should tell me that their there(really stealth)
- same sort of thing, if the scout used good strategy, good gameplay, good decisions to sneak up on you then a cloak is not required. He can do this un-cloaked and its the skill. If he used easy mode cloak, then it's the item and not the skill. Frankly, most of the time it's the item and not the player's skill, which is the problem. Too many short cuts, too many terrible decisions, too many gameplay errors all resulting in rewarding the player with offensive advantages they do not deserve. Kill turns into multiple kills even when poor gameplay + cloaks is used! and it's used all the time for "success". This is a nerf cloak statement or an anti cloak stamens lol
4.I don't want to use a scanner I just want to pew pew.
you don't want to use a scanner, Hun? You just want to be an easy mode Logi slayer 2.0? I dont understand this, the Cal scout provides the same type of bonus a scanner would. Are you saying you want all the rewards with none of the skill or drawbacks, it certainly sounds like it, this is anti-cloak statement too.
5.i don't want to look for a blue easy to spot shimmer.
- again, Hun?
6.my kd was higher before cloak scouts.
haha, you k/d was higher for two easy to explain reasons. 1- there wasn't a bunch of unskilled players running around on easy mode killing you, therefore lowering you k/d. 2- cloaks promote (and reward) poor gameplay, so either they are taking shortcuts or you are now taking shortcuts which is resulting in lower k/d. Who says a scout should have a good k/d anyways, they are objective based gameplay picking off outlier targets (selectively and with patience and good decisions).
7.why are scout not easy to kill anymore.
- a few reasons, one they got new classes which added more options (Cal dominates eWAr so they see you coming). Scouts like Min and Gal got a boost to module slots (high and low slot), a stat reset means more people took their SP and focused it into a class allowing for more Proto suits. And also cloaks. No **** eh. Not only are you seeing high eHP scouts which are harder to kill, but even the "proper" scouts have gained as much as 175 eHP more due to their extra slots. You can't see the scout idiots who use to run into open spaces as well, you can't see the bozos climbing ladders, or hacking objective, and the guys who suck at flanking at gaining an advantage there as well. There are more reason but you have more questions. This is a anti-cloak statement lol
8.why do I need a team in a team type shooter.
- you don't. Not sure what this is doing in here. But if you're arguing cloaks give u the advantage to solo vs multiple enemies at hat just re-i forces the cloak being OP and not required. Not sure what you meant here though.
9 .Im a assault I should beat everyone.
haha, again this is pulled from your ass. The comment argument i think you might be trying to make is why should one class be best, it shouldn't. No single class counters another, no class should be OP, no class should dominate. This one, idk wtf u are trying to say but its wrong either way.
10.give my rail rifle time to shoot so we can 1v1.
- again what the **** are you saying. You made 10 points, 4 of which support the removal of cloaks, 4 of which are insanely stupid and make no sense and two of them are in favor of nerf'ing cloaks. I'm not really sure you understand your position here, but it seems you are against cloaks.
QQers of cloak are but hurt and think their justified., they don't want to learn to play because QQ is easier.Cloak does nothing but make you slightly invisible(should be full) no other advances,easy countered by using your eyes.If you are blind you have,scanners,team work,common snse(don't lonewolf).iI get it you don't want a tactical shooter just an mom cod.Pew pew pew , not fair I can't see him....nerf nerf
- okay you made 10 invalid, frankly stupid points in favor of cloaks which on,y actually support the removal/nerf'ing of cloaks. You say because my cloak is so OP everyone is butt hurt because I am a ******* OP now with cloak. You're just a stupid human being who cannot make an argument and apparently are so terrible at dust i need this a crutch (a cloak) to even kill someone. You must be some 12 year old kid, because this wasn't even difficult to reverse your opinion, you made every point in the opposite view,of what you were arguing for.
.[/quote]
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Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:00:00 -
[65] - Quote
[quote=Cotsy8]There has been no decent arguments to cloak.I Spend way to much time making QQers look stupid.
1.I cant see them(it's called cloak for a reason)
- if you can see them, when what is the point of a cloak? Seems pretty easy, if everyone cloaked and everyone can see them, them what's the point? If you can see them, why does it matter. Oh that's right cause the rest can't see them.
- Many encounter issues like frame rate, lag, lighting, blue Huey blocking, poor map lining, poor area lighting, stupid red dust, etc... I play on two top of the line 55 and 60 inch TV's and I can't pick up scouts easily. Most players can't either.
2.They killed with a shotgun in shotgun range(really)
- SG are not the problem, they are a balanced weapon. It's how the player got to shotgun range is what matters. The fact he fired nearly two shots while cloaked isn't the issue. Is what short cuts, what advantages did the cloak undeservingly provide that player to get into SG range. There's no problems for un-cloaked scout to flank you, close the gap between him and his prey, then fire a SG into your back/side/head in SG range. The problem is the defensive, then offensive advantages the cloaks gave you before you did it. This shows cloaks reward things theat shouldn't be rewarded and is the first of many anti-cloak or nerf needed to cloaks statements you make lol
3.After they sneak up on me they should tell me that their there(really stealth)
- same sort of thing, if the scout used good strategy, good gameplay, good decisions to sneak up on you then a cloak is not required. He can do this un-cloaked and its the skill. If he used easy mode cloak, then it's the item and not the skill. Frankly, most of the time it's the item and not the player's skill, which is the problem. Too many short cuts, too many terrible decisions, too many gameplay errors all resulting in rewarding the player with offensive advantages they do not deserve. Kill turns into multiple kills even when poor gameplay + cloaks is used! and it's used all the time for "success". This is a nerf cloak statement or an anti cloak stamens lol
4.I don't want to use a scanner I just want to pew pew.
you don't want to use a scanner, Hun? You just want to be an easy mode Logi slayer 2.0? I dont understand this, the Cal scout provides the same type of bonus a scanner would. Are you saying you want all the rewards with none of the skill or drawbacks, it certainly sounds like it, this is anti-cloak statement too.
5.i don't want to look for a blue easy to spot shimmer.
- again, Hun?
6.my kd was higher before cloak scouts.
haha, you k/d was higher for two easy to explain reasons. 1- there wasn't a bunch of unskilled players running around on easy mode killing you, therefore lowering you k/d. 2- cloaks promote (and reward) poor gameplay, so either they are taking shortcuts or you are now taking shortcuts which is resulting in lower k/d. Who says a scout should have a good k/d anyways, they are objective based gameplay picking off outlier targets (selectively and with patience and good decisions).
7.why are scout not easy to kill anymore.
- a few reasons, one they got new classes which added more options (Cal dominates eWAr so they see you coming). Scouts like Min and Gal got a boost to module slots (high and low slot), a stat reset means more people took their SP and focused it into a class allowing for more Proto suits. And also cloaks. No **** eh. Not only are you seeing high eHP scouts which are harder to kill, but even the "proper" scouts have gained as much as 175 eHP more due to their extra slots. You can't see the scout idiots who use to run into open spaces as well, you can't see the bozos climbing ladders, or hacking objective, and the guys who suck at flanking at gaining an advantage there as well. There are more reason but you have more questions. This is a anti-cloak statement lol
8.why do I need a team in a team type shooter.
- you don't. Not sure what this is doing in here. But if you're arguing cloaks give u the advantage to solo vs multiple enemies at hat just re-i forces the cloak being OP and not required. Not sure what you meant here though.
9 .Im a assault I should beat everyone.
haha, again this is pulled from your ass. The comment argument i think you might be trying to make is why should one class be best, it shouldn't. No single class counters another, no class should be OP, no class should dominate. This one, idk wtf u are trying to say but its wrong either way.
10.give my rail rifle time to shoot so we can 1v1.
- again what the **** are you saying. You made 10 points, 4 of which support the removal of cloaks, 4 of which are insanely stupid and make no sense and two of them are in favor of nerf'ing cloaks. I'm not really sure you understand your position here, but it seems you are against cloaks.
QQers of cloak are but hurt and think their justified., they don't want to learn to play because QQ is easier.Cloak does nothing but make you slightly invisible(should be full) no other advances,easy countered by using your eyes.If you are blind you have,scanners,team work,common snse(don't lonewolf).iI get it you don't want a tactical shooter just an mom cod.Pew pew pew , not fair I can't see him....ner
You really just proved me right(how sad) while running around everything |
Cotsy8
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar
DARKSTAR ARMY
246
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
@hound who write Cloak is going to get nerf that is a fact.The problem is cloaks a one trick pony with given counters and people QQ.how are you every going to get balance in a game were the majority of the community cries instead of adapting.Cloaks not damage,stat boost,or anything else.The only reason I defend it is because it's sad that the player base can't handle a half@&& cloak.How can you handle more complex tools if you can't even handle the simple ones.I can't tell you how many "plasma cannon crutch" mail I got.This is the community, everything's being balance around kd and pride.This is a sand box stop kicking the sand out.
Cloaks are going to get nerf'd - maybe they should just be removed.
Cloaks are a one trick pony - if you mean that your one trick is turning them in and going into easy mode, i completely agree.
People QQ because the recognize a serious problem, which you've identified but cannot provide any justification for or suggestions to balance.
Player base cannot handle the advantages provided by cloaks to players whose gameplay do not warrant such defensive and offensive rewards. Yup. Turn on easy modem people QQ so blame the QQ on the difference between a simple and complex tool, Hun?! A cloak is a simple tool (yes), which provides a wide range of very complex (if you say so) advantages.. Yup.
If you want to be a loser and troll about under balanced weapons like flaylocks and plasma cannons being able to kill, but not being on the balanced level then you're just grasping for straws. Weapons can kill, but it doesn't mean they are balanced. Scouts can kill with cloaks but it doesn't mean they are balanced, for instance before 1.7 scouts can kill but they were slightly under balanced. So CCP gave scouts more classes, an additional equipment slots, additional modules (high/low) improvements which made the class balanced. Cloaks, they are not balanced, they are a crutch which rewards poor gameplay. They are low risk, high rewards, no drawbacks easy mode. Just like you said, they easy mode.
Stop kicking the sand out, i suspect that means please don't get rid of my OP crutch which i need to kill people because before I got my crutch i was a **** scout and now i turn easy mode on and somehow thanks to CCP for providing me with free "skill". Tske a ******* seat along with the idiot who started this thread. Your crutch is bullshit easy mode and you know it, everyone knows it. Youre just a selfish ******* kid who thinks he deserves it. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2403
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Tek Hound wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Tek Hound wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:I think it's the same argument as tanks here... I shouldn't have to field a scout to counter the scout.
Exactly just like you shouldn't have to field a heavy to counter a heavy When it comes to cloaks, there are legitimate concerns being buried beneath mountains of QQ and poor sports man ship. But let's get a few things sorted. 1) Cloaks ARE Hard to see. It cannot be denied, cloaks were designed to be hard to see, that is why they are hardto see, if you BELIEVE that they are easy to see then congratulations you might have over sensitive eyes. A good percentage of the population can see more colour tones than the average, you are probably one of those people. 2) Cloaking is not a Cructch Its no more a crutch than dancing on hives, or uplinks on rooftops. Its Annoying, its frustrating, it's not as simple to counter as the person using it would have you believe. But it's not a crutch 3) Aim Assist DOES still work on cloaked entities. I have tested, once you "lock on" to a target aim assist will assist in tracking them. You are now enlightened, use it to your advantage. 4) Cloaks ARE NOT perfect There is still somethings that need to be ironed out with cloaks to stop abuse. 5) Cloaks ARE NOT perfectly balanced. I'm not saying they are HORRENDOUSLY OP, but do you really think NS and WTF would be spamming Caldari Scouts with quite as much regularity if they weren't so effective. 6) Firing before the Cloak decloaks is not an intended mechanic. CCP orginally had a penalty for firing under the effects of a cloak, this would not have been removed if CCP intended to give the current function of quick-swap cloaking to scouts. 7) Giving an Opponent warning your about to 1-Shot Him is NOT a Crutch If you don't at least give the enemy opportunity to swear vengeance on you first it creates the impression that there was nothing that could be done, so they believe it to be OP, however if the Opponent feels they were given fair warning they blame themselves for not being faster enough, the whole interaction requires just a marginal increase in skill for the Assailant, and would probably still give them same result of death 85% of the time. The mojarity of the comunity is just butt hurt and want an easy QQ nerf save.when you play metal gear do you tap every enemy you sneak up on to warn them?no because it defeats the purpose of steath.Its l2p or QQ You actually got some medal or something in MGS4 for dealing with a certain number of alerts before a call was put out for back up. However this is not MGS you are against real people, where that persons perception of the mechanic is important to the retention of the game. You wouldn't be anymore comprimised to the rest of the team, you probably wouldn't even find it that much harder to kill the guy, the majority of ghe time all that will happen is he will jump in 180-¦ and see you pull the trigger before he falls to the floor dead. But that fraction of a second is the difference between him saying 'this is OP and uncounterable' and him saying 'damn scout, need to be faster next time'. The real question is though, if it's that inconsequential to its operation why do you need to defend it so much that you risk the cloak being over-nerfed? Wouldn't it be better to doll out this placebo to the playerbase that will stem QQ and have done with it? Or do you keep fighting and risk loosing it all? Oh and Finally, Take Down Number 2 Cloak is going to get nerf that is a fact.The problem is cloaks a one trick pony with given counters and people QQ.how are you every going to get balance in a game were the majority of the community cries instead of adapting.Cloaks not damage,stat boost,or anything else.The only reason I defend it is because it's sad that the player base can't handle a half@&& cloak.How can you handle more complex tools if you can't even handle the simple ones.I can't tell you how many "plasma cannon crutch" mail I got.This is the community, everything's being balance around kd and pride.This is a sand box stop kicking the sand out
Given Counters?
A cloaked Scout?
And a Broken Scanner?
If you know the cloak is going to get nerfed then push for the least damaging nerf, lesser of twl evils.
Unfortunately people will always QQ but if you didn't listen to some of it, we would still be in replication.
Also your one trick pony is what I find most worrying, how is it a one trick pony?
It can be used very effectively for traversal across open terrain, remaining hidden long enough to finish that hack and even allow for the set-up of a flanking team.
As I have said many a time, Cloaks were not designed to be offensive in this game, it bypasses too many of what should be legitimate counters to be fair in DIRECT combat.
You no doubt disagree with me, but imagine HALO and the cloak power up you used to be able to get, people whined like I dunno what when you apired witha sword.
Or XCOM they actually nerfed cloaking, or Crysis that nerfed kt harder, and those 2 are 1 player games.
EVERY kill should be a challenge from start to finish.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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echo47
Minmatar Republic
262
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break... Then this should be rare and that player should be fitting to solo. Right now there is an abundance of players with 1.7 fits running around solo expecting to spray fire scouts at a distance.. and crying because that is not happening. Running solo over open terrain is stupid risk from snipers. Now running solo in CQC areas is stupid because of scouts.
So running solo means you are easier prey for scouts? Why does being solo make you easier prey for a cloaked scout?
I would rather look bad and win, than look good and lose.
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Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
241
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:16:00 -
[69] - Quote
Cotsy8 wrote:@hound who write Cloak is going to get nerf that is a fact.The problem is cloaks a one trick pony with given counters and people QQ.how are you every going to get balance in a game were the majority of the community cries instead of adapting.Cloaks not damage,stat boost,or anything else.The only reason I defend it is because it's sad that the player base can't handle a half@&& cloak.How can you handle more complex tools if you can't even handle the simple ones.I can't tell you how many "plasma cannon crutch" mail I got.This is the community, everything's being balance around kd and pride.This is a sand box stop kicking the sand out.
Cloaks are going to get nerf'd - maybe they should just be removed.
Cloaks are a one trick pony - if you mean that your one trick is turning them in and going into easy mode, i completely agree.
People QQ because the recognize a serious problem, which you've identified but cannot provide any justification for or suggestions to balance.
Player base cannot handle the advantages provided by cloaks to players whose gameplay do not warrant such defensive and offensive rewards. Yup. Turn on easy modem people QQ so blame the QQ on the difference between a simple and complex tool, Hun?! A cloak is a simple tool (yes), which provides a wide range of very complex (if you say so) advantages.. Yup.
If you want to be a loser and troll about under balanced weapons like flaylocks and plasma cannons being able to kill, but not being on the balanced level then you're just grasping for straws. Weapons can kill, but it doesn't mean they are balanced. Scouts can kill with cloaks but it doesn't mean they are balanced, for instance before 1.7 scouts can kill but they were slightly under balanced. So CCP gave scouts more classes, an additional equipment slots, additional modules (high/low) improvements which made the class balanced. Cloaks, they are not balanced, they are a crutch which rewards poor gameplay. They are low risk, high rewards, no drawbacks easy mode. Just like you said, they easy mode.
Stop kicking the sand out, i suspect that means please don't get rid of my OP crutch which i need to kill people because before I got my crutch i was a **** scout and now i turn easy mode on and somehow thanks to CCP for providing me with free "skill". Tske a ******* seat along with the idiot who started this thread. Your crutch is bullshit easy mode and you know it, everyone knows it. Youre just a selfish ******* kid who thinks he deserves it.
+1 butt hurt
You can write a wall of text when put together it reads butt hurt.A nerf to cloak is not balance,you just want your kd/pride back.like I sad go play cod if you want to pew pew in on direction without tactics.
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Vell0cet
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
1376
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:19:00 -
[70] - Quote
Cotsy8 wrote:Many people make decent arguments about nerf'ing cloaks, other people make good arguments for getting rid if cloaks altogether. You know who can't come up with any justifications for cloaks, the people who support them. It's been what, around 10 days, since cloaks were released and all cloak supports can say are the same four irrelevant and invalid statements:
1. Get good.
2. Eyes are OP.
3. EVE has cloaks.
4. I need them to be great.
I've spent way too much time tearing these idiots up.
They always say, oh why should I listen to you, you don't use cloaks. Yes i do, i love cloaks for what they give me (a huge advantage) but that doesn't mean i can't be objective in my assessment of cloaks.
They say, you weren't a scout before 1.8 it wasn't easy. Again, yes i was. And yes it wasn't easy but it shouldn't be easy mode now. I sometimes had bad games (i still have a few bad games now but its more rare) but having a high risk, high reward class means some games you are going to struggle. Games aren't going to be easy, most are a struggle where your mistakes cost you a clone. Games were a thin line of skill and strategy and sometimes you got lucky to win a gun battle, but if you gave me the option of an easy mode or a balanced gameplay, i choose balanced all the time.
Supporters of the cloaks can't justify their new easy mode, they don't want their cloak to be nerf or removed because they don't want to go back to old times. I get it, you don't want to go from being a dominant force to a cog in the team. But success should be based on skill, skillful play, strategy because of the high risk, high reward nature of the suit. If you don't like high risk high reward, and perfer the cloak which has no risk, high reward, no drawbacks - i understand. I am just saying its not necessary and its dishonest of you not to be objective. Furthermore, its in the disinterest of the game for one class to be OP, so you're doing everyone a disservice by not acknowledging that cloaks are easy mode.
Reason for cloaks: it makes combat much more tactical and interesting. It gives dampening/precision mods a much more useful purpose, and results in a much greater diversity of fits (other than max brick tanking). Cloaking is a powerful tactic, and one of the main counters (the active scanner) is buggy and isn't as effective as it should be. No one wants a return to the "scanerina" days, but increasing the arc of the scans, and possibly reducing the cooldown some might be a reasonable starting place for buffing the counter to cloaks.
Let's say they remove the cloak, cloaked scouts are a strong counter to sentinels. You'll quickly see them become the next FOTM, and people like you will QQ and they'll get nerfed, and the next thing you know, we're back to Assault514, with everyone brick tanking. The current game has a huge diversity of suits and fits. Yes cloaks need some balancing adjustments (firing delay after decloaking), and buffs to countering cloaks, but they help add a lot of diversity to the field, and are a good check on protostompers. It's like EVE in Wormhole space, you're never safe, and you should be paranoid if you're using something expensive.
I'd like to see a game with strong tactics, and equally strong counter tactics, not water it all down and making everything too similar, because you're sad the cloaked guy shot you.
Best PvE idea ever!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9273
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:20:00 -
[71] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:It just amazes me how may people are running around like the solo hero dying to scouts. 1.8 get a squad and work as a team.
Its just over board that amount of fail that is going on and I only here QQ about nerfs. I really hope CCP does not listen to this BS.
I will repeat myself because I am so shocked by it. So many are still running around solo dying to scouts. Sometimes over and over in the same match. What are you thinking?
Sure but sometimes a solo players is running flank for their squad, not alone but taking a huge risk to flank an enemy position.
"Get thine Swag out of my face! Next you'll be writing #YOLOswagforJamyl in all your posts!"
-Dagger Two
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Tek Hound
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
241
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
[
Given Counters?
A cloaked Scout?
And a Broken Scanner?
If you know the cloak is going to get nerfed then push for the least damaging nerf, lesser of twl evils.
Unfortunately people will always QQ but if you didn't listen to some of it, we would still be in replication.
Also your one trick pony is what I find most worrying, how is it a one trick pony?
It can be used very effectively for traversal across open terrain, remaining hidden long enough to finish that hack and even allow for the set-up of a flanking team.
As I have said many a time, Cloaks were not designed to be offensive in this game, it bypasses too many of what should be legitimate counters to be fair in DIRECT combat.
You no doubt disagree with me, but imagine HALO and the cloak power up you used to be able to get, people whined like I dunno what when you apired witha sword.
Or XCOM they actually nerfed cloaking, or Crysis that nerfed kt harder, and those 2 are 1 player games.
EVERY kill should be a challenge from start to finish.[/quote]
Counters= your eyes are the biggest most effective one
One trick pony=invisibility(what you can do with it is on you)
Cloak defensive=cloak is neither an offensive of defensive ability(it is what the user can accomplish with it )
The gaming community now a days is filled with kd lovers and Im skilled so I should win players.so it's not a surprise that games are nerf around them to keep them player(money).
All yo have to do is look a to dust history to know cloak is going to get nerf. In now way I'm I'm going to go for the lesser of two evils because people who thought they were good got a rude awaking.People try to justify their nerf request but it's just their kd/pride their justifing.A lot of fuss over a simple watered down mechanic.Anybody QQ over cloak should never talk about skill or balance ever again. |
KING CHECKMATE
Tal-Romon Legion
Amarr Empire
4870
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 20:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:It just amazes me how may people are running around like the solo hero dying to scouts. 1.8 get a squad and work as a team.
Its just over board that amount of fail that is going on and I only here QQ about nerfs. I really hope CCP does not listen to this BS.
I will repeat myself because I am so shocked by it. So many are still running around solo dying to scouts. Sometimes over and over in the same match. What are you thinking?
Pretty much.
When i play as a scout i run around objectives trying to catch solo players or small teams of 2-3.
While im playing as a heavy i always Try to follow team mates no matter where they might be going.If i die (IF , i die XD) i regroup as fast as i can.
Like drones? = https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153604&find=unread
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2409
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Tek Hound wrote:[
Given Counters?
A cloaked Scout?
And a Broken Scanner?
If you know the cloak is going to get nerfed then push for the least damaging nerf, lesser of twl evils.
Unfortunately people will always QQ but if you didn't listen to some of it, we would still be in replication.
Also your one trick pony is what I find most worrying, how is it a one trick pony?
It can be used very effectively for traversal across open terrain, remaining hidden long enough to finish that hack and even allow for the set-up of a flanking team.
As I have said many a time, Cloaks were not designed to be offensive in this game, it bypasses too many of what should be legitimate counters to be fair in DIRECT combat.
You no doubt disagree with me, but imagine HALO and the cloak power up you used to be able to get, people whined like I dunno what when you apired witha sword.
Or XCOM they actually nerfed cloaking, or Crysis that nerfed kt harder, and those 2 are 1 player games.
EVERY kill should be a challenge from start to finish.
Counters= your eyes are the biggest most effective one
One trick pony=invisibility(what you can do with it is on you)
Cloak defensive=cloak is neither an offensive of defensive ability(it is what the user can accomplish with it )
The gaming community now a days is filled with kd lovers and Im skilled so I should win players.so it's not a surprise that games are nerf around them to keep them player(money).
All yo have to do is look a to dust history to know cloak is going to get nerf. In now way I'm I'm going to go for the lesser of two evils because people who thought they were good got a rude awaking.People try to justify their nerf request but it's just their kd/pride their justifing.A lot of fuss over a simple watered down mechanic.Anybody QQ over cloak should never talk about skill or balance ever again.[/quote]
So counter the hard to see object by . . . . . seeing it?
As I told you early, cloaks are DESIGNED to be hard to see, that is why so many people have trouble seeing them.
Isn't technically everything a One tricm pony? After all guns only do one thing, shoot bullets.
Im not saying a good player should be able to use a scout in offensive situations, but CCP said it was designed for use as a frontline weapon.
Unfortunately I doubt Im actually gona succed with you or Cotsy. You are both too set in your ways, your final statement is merely an opinion amd shows your absolute stubbornness, the people who have been here for a long time will reach a general consensus without people like yourself. The fact you still continue just deepens the case against you.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Izlare Lenix
Arrogance.
369
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
I love how before this patch so many players would "solo" using brick fit, tripple damage proto logis, always scanning, while camping somewhere high, using proto RR while sitting on triage hives. And that was ok.
But now with this patch, a scout has to constantly be moving, always sneaking up on its targets, always having to be aware of surroundings, especially other scouts, and yet this form of solo play is labeled "OP" and the community at large is constantly bitching about it.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2409
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:I love how before this patch so many players would "solo" using brick fit, tripple damage proto logis, always scanning, while camping somewhere high, using proto RR while sitting on triage hives. And that was ok.
But now with this patch, a scout has to constantly be moving, always sneaking up on its targets, always having to be aware of surroundings, especially other scouts, and yet this form of solo play is labeled "OP" and the community at large is constantly bitching about it.
Damage Mods Nerfed due to Community Pressure
Hives Nerfed due to Community Pressure
Scanners nerfed ude to overwhelming Comunity Pressure
Logis nerfed due to Community Pressure
Were you literally not on here for like the last 3 months?
Although I guess it might have been hard to pick ojt against all the tank threads.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
1701
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break...
Checking team chat before you spawn in and jump in a squad going already helps...
Squad vision alone makes this worth it... Being able to see what your squad does.
Yes a lack of automated squad finder really hurt the casual solo players.. It's what everyone asked for...
We wanted a tiered matchmaking system.... They gave us an automated one...
We wanted an automated Squad finder with a manual browse option... They gave us some lame generalized lazy version of a squad finder.
It's the Story of CCP Shanghai... Half jobs. |
Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
8147
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:21:00 -
[78] - Quote
Athena Sentinel wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Athena Sentinel wrote:In comes the QQ squad.. Game numbers have gone up since 1.8 - wth are people talking about.
I am glad scouts now have a very active and necessary role in a squad. Not simply taken up by another suit and fit with more HP.
You need scouts I your squad now!! YAY Nobody needs an assault. You barely need a heavy. You don't need a commando. But scouts? YOU BETTER BRING A SCOUT OR YOU'RE DEAD  Don't you see a problem here? Your losing my interest with this crap. A heavy and logi repper would not even touch the ground as they walk from body to body  Now add a scout.. I admit - The assault role is still less defined.. but they are the jack of all trades and there is goods and bads to that.
If the assault is the jack of all trades, then the scout is the master of all trades.
It seriously does everything the assault does better, at a very tiny HP cost.
Also, as a scout, logi + heavy combo is an easy kill for me, shotgun the logi, cloak, pick another time to shotgun the heavy.
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2409
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:25:00 -
[79] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break... Checking team chat before you spawn in and jump in a squad going already helps... Squad vision alone makes this worth it... Being able to see what your squad does. Yes a lack of automated squad finder really hurt the casual solo players.. It's what everyone asked for... We wanted a tiered matchmaking system.... They gave us an automated one... We wanted an automated Squad finder with a manual browse option... They gave us some lame generalized lazy version of a squad finder. It's the Story of CCP Shanghai... Half jobs.
Why would you want an automated squad finder?
Their is NO matchamking, it groups people together based purely on connection.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Travis Stanush
GunFall Mobilization
61
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:26:00 -
[80] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break... Checking team chat before you spawn in and jump in a squad going already helps... Squad vision alone makes this worth it... Being able to see what your squad does. Yes a lack of automated squad finder really hurt the casual solo players.. It's what everyone asked for... We wanted a tiered matchmaking system.... They gave us an automated one... We wanted an automated Squad finder with a manual browse option... They gave us some lame generalized lazy version of a squad finder. It's the Story of CCP Shanghai... Half jobs.
I agree they should have linked everyone in battle then this wouldn't be such an issue but the fact remains until they do that the casual gamers are going to get fuxked |
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Cat Merc
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Dirt Nap Squad.
8149
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:30:00 -
[81] - Quote
Izlare Lenix wrote:I love how before this patch so many players would "solo" using brick fit, tripple damage proto logis, always scanning, while camping somewhere high, using proto RR while sitting on triage hives. And that was ok.
But now with this patch, a scout has to constantly be moving, always sneaking up on its targets, always having to be aware of surroundings, especially other scouts, and yet this form of solo play is labeled "OP" and the community at large is constantly bitching about it.
I rather have those A-hole brick tankers than the cloaked scouts with shottys.
And no, none of what you said is true, passive scanning, dampening and a cloak does all the work for you.
Just pick a target, and go at it.
My intentions is to have a fun game for everyone.
If I seem to be biased, I have good hard data to back it up.
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Bethhy
Ancient Exiles.
Dirt Nap Squad.
1701
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:31:00 -
[82] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Bethhy wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break... Checking team chat before you spawn in and jump in a squad going already helps... Squad vision alone makes this worth it... Being able to see what your squad does. Yes a lack of automated squad finder really hurt the casual solo players.. It's what everyone asked for... We wanted a tiered matchmaking system.... They gave us an automated one... We wanted an automated Squad finder with a manual browse option... They gave us some lame generalized lazy version of a squad finder. It's the Story of CCP Shanghai... Half jobs. Why would you want an automated squad finder? Their is NO matchamking, it groups people together based purely on connection.
Why would you want an automated squad finder? You mean like WoW? Boarderlands 2? can just keep going.... How about the system they are talking about for Destiny's squad based play?
The browse squads option was merely that manual part of the squad finder mechanic.. But having solo players using the Automated squad finder was supposed to be a staple of DUST...
And asked for since closed beta.
We had a matchmaking system they spent 3 months building it.... it's largely disabled after no one could get into a match for 9 days... Because they tried to automate it.
Instead of giving us tiered matches we all asked for... |
SgtMajSquish MLBJ
Consolidated Dust
89
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:32:00 -
[83] - Quote
da GAND wrote:Athena Sentinel wrote:da GAND wrote:Or just follow some blue dots that look like they know what they are doing. A scout can still take out a bad group with no mics.. Just work from the last guy in line ;) If the warning can go out.. then every scout kill = a death = not worth attacking the group. One thing I like about the cloaking though is that it sort of makes people go in groups and more of a team based game.
the thing you haveto be afraid of is a squad with a cloaked scout in it. Not only does the scout see you but the entire squad does too.
Favoring High Latency Is A Load Of Poo
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Jenza's Pants
The Hetairoi
148
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:37:00 -
[84] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Athena Sentinel wrote:Cat Merc wrote:Ah yes, use a team to counter the crutch.
Just like tanks.
But seriously though, cloaks need to be toned down with their offensive capabilities. The crutch is the fact you think you can run around solo like you were in 1.7 and earlier. No enough people are utilizing the find a squad tools - for quick matches. Run solo follow blue dots as we said for a quicker game. Refusing to change your tactics and crying that the game strategy has changed is your crutch. Worst part is the QQers are often using old OP gear that they would not call a crutch If the game is FOTM it will be something else shortly. First, I thought it's quite obvious that I was joking. Second, your entire argument fails when you realize that a scout can solo very effectively. Actually, it's the only suit that can solo now, since otherwise scouts will DESTROY your suit.
Its ok. Scouts are the new tanks. Any shottyscout scrub who says otherwise is crutching it up. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2410
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 21:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Bethhy wrote:Travis Stanush wrote:We'll not everyone feels like squaring up every time they log-in to play a couple games on lunch break... Checking team chat before you spawn in and jump in a squad going already helps... Squad vision alone makes this worth it... Being able to see what your squad does. Yes a lack of automated squad finder really hurt the casual solo players.. It's what everyone asked for... We wanted a tiered matchmaking system.... They gave us an automated one... We wanted an automated Squad finder with a manual browse option... They gave us some lame generalized lazy version of a squad finder. It's the Story of CCP Shanghai... Half jobs. Why would you want an automated squad finder? Their is NO matchamking, it groups people together based purely on connection. Why would you want an automated squad finder? You mean like WoW? Boarderlands 2? can just keep going.... How about the system they are talking about for Destiny's squad based play? The browse squads option was merely that manual part of the squad finder mechanic.. But having solo players using the Automated squad finder was supposed to be a staple of DUST... And asked for since closed beta. We had a matchmaking system they spent 3 months building it.... it's largely disabled after no one could get into a match for 9 days... Because they tried to automate it. Instead of giving us tiered matches we all asked for...
You mean that terrible Squad Finder on borderlands that puts me with absolute @ssholes all the time? Yeah I really can't see why you would want an automated function like that.
Who wants teired matchmaking? That's a terrible idea that was already discussed to death because it doesn't solve problems, it only serves to fragmemt the player base further, discourage people skilling into advamced or pro tiers for fear of being stomped, creates three levels of stomping as a result and basically makes the current issues we have without matchmaking applied across 3 times as many lobbies.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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ishtellian
SAM-MIK
General Tso's Alliance
18
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Posted - 2014.04.06 22:17:00 -
[86] - Quote
Without a mic, most squads wont even look your way no matter how good you are. Alot of 'blueberries' dont even use the forums or have mics, they lose out on alot of information and opportunities they don't have any chat channel besides local and the starter corp one, they have almost no way of getting into a corp unless they get invited.
Some people just like to play solo
My Heavy Never Dies.
Logibro In training.
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PAXTON HAILFIRE
CORPORACION CRISTIAN MURATI 84
45
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Posted - 2014.04.06 22:17:00 -
[87] - Quote
I run solo fairly often and get caught by scouts. It happens. Sometimes, I catch them. I just adjust my suit based on how the match is going and bank ISK. Typically it isnt the scout as much as the corp on the other side. I squad up if I'm going to be on for awhile. However, I just wish they'd bring back the mcc in pub matches so you can squad up before you drop in. Squad finder is ok, but good Lord some of those dudes take an eternity to enter a battle. I don't play dust to hang out in my dorm room.
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Izlare Lenix
Arrogance.
370
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 23:23:00 -
[88] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:I love how before this patch so many players would "solo" using brick fit, tripple damage proto logis, always scanning, while camping somewhere high, using proto RR while sitting on triage hives. And that was ok.
But now with this patch, a scout has to constantly be moving, always sneaking up on its targets, always having to be aware of surroundings, especially other scouts, and yet this form of solo play is labeled "OP" and the community at large is constantly bitching about it. Damage Mods Nerfed due to Community Pressure Hives Nerfed due to Community Pressure Scanners nerfed ude to overwhelming Comunity Pressure Logis nerfed due to Community Pressure Were you literally not on here for like the last 3 months? Although I guess it might have been hard to pick ojt against all the tank threads.
My point is the amount of butt hurt floating around the forums right now about scouts/cloaks far surpases the amount that was aimed at the logi slayers of before.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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Izlare Lenix
Arrogance.
370
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 23:34:00 -
[89] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:Izlare Lenix wrote:I love how before this patch so many players would "solo" using brick fit, tripple damage proto logis, always scanning, while camping somewhere high, using proto RR while sitting on triage hives. And that was ok.
But now with this patch, a scout has to constantly be moving, always sneaking up on its targets, always having to be aware of surroundings, especially other scouts, and yet this form of solo play is labeled "OP" and the community at large is constantly bitching about it. I rather have those A-hole brick tankers than the cloaked scouts with shottys. And no, none of what you said is true, passive scanning, dampening and a cloak does all the work for you. Just pick a target, and go at it.
So your saying a 1000 hp, 3x damage logi slayer that scanned everyone and just waited for the red chevron to come around the corner so he could insta kill him was harder than being a scout? No f'king way.
Scouts actually have to be picky with their targets. They have to know when to engage and when to run. There are also several scout fits not even a caldari Scout can pick up so scouts are always looking out for other scouts, just like every other frame has to do. And to be a good scout scanner you have to sacrifice fitting slots unlike a logi slayer that just threw a scanner on his high damage, high ehp suit.
This patch scouts have their advantages, but running as logi slayer last patch was way easier, especially with high damage fits and stupid low TTK we had.
Gun control is not about guns...it's about control.
The only way to ensure freedom is by having the means to defend it.
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Darken-Sol
BIG BAD W0LVES
Canis Eliminatus Operatives
1183
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Posted - 2014.04.07 00:29:00 -
[90] - Quote
I do better solo. Its more isk efficient. I see tons of proto scouts going 20/11 12/8. Its so op.
Crush them
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