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Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
55
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it.
http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXE
i think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance |
noobsniper the 2nd
OLDSPICE.
Top Men.
295
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Swarmsopplznerf
just call me communist space king noob
MAG vet raven ftw
Pre 1.8 scout don't throw me in with that rift raft
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Minor Treat
The Enclave Syndicate
Dark Taboo
186
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Posted - 2014.03.20 20:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Finally someone made a proof video |
Enji Elric
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
Interstellar Murder of Crows
184
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
yes awesome vid for the judge
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
49
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1
to conclude CCP math is bad (joke) the implementation is bad and the innate resistance from tanks, drop ships plus hardener resistance is flawed.
very good vid and clean explanation props to OP
CCP deal with it you can do it in quick fix probably after 1.8 hits OR just get the hardeners out of the game after 1.8 till you figure out how to implement them properly with native HAV, and DS resistance and the gunlogi speed
cheers and have a good day!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Shooty Dangerman
One Bad Dude
38
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Why do shields have a damage threshold before recharge delay? I really don't understand the need for that. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
10055
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
This definitely needs to be fixed
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Fizzer94
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
2337
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
The level of incompetence here is staggering.
How did this get into the game?
Literal invincibilty?
"Balanced".
Fizzer94 // Forum Warrior Operation II // MAG Vet
Gallente Neutron Rifle
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1189
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
I love Judge's videos. I do think he does a better job of pointing out problems than proposing solutions though. For one thing he seemed to be a big fan of the nerfs to swarms in 1.7 as show in this video of his. In that video he ignores the fact that swarm range isn't a cylinder that extends to the sky, but is a dome. At normal dropship altitudes, the radius of the circle of effective lock-on range is actually much smaller than what he shows. The ability of dropships to quickly buzz in-and-out of lock range before you are able to fire is also an issue, not to mention being able to light an afterburner and speed away from the swarms.
I also think he got the suggested fix wrong with his Redline Rail Tank Video. I think the man focus for fixing that mechanic is changing how the redline works instead of nerfing turret elevation, which would leave dropships with very few viable options to counter them (teams of forge gunners and ramming with cheap dropships). A rail tank with a low turret elevation would be forced to the redlines and edges of the battle to hit anything in the air, which is counterproductive. It should be encouraged to engage closer to the action by adding falloff mechanics and changes to the redline.
One redline change that might work is having it function like the cloak meter or stamina bar. CCP could extend the time in the redline to 40 seconds, but once your time is up and you leave, it slowly builds back up over 40 seconds, in other words, it wouldn't reset back to 40 immediately after exiting. This would limit MCC spawn camping, and open up waves of opportunity for counterattack. Here's an example, you enter the aerial redline for 30 seconds, and then exit. You now have 10 secs of redline time remaining that slowly builds up to 20 over the next 10 seconds. You re-enter the redline with 20 second, spend 15, and now exit with only 5 left. You will have to wait 35 seconds to get it back to full.
Having said all that it would have been interesting to hear what his proposed fixes were. It seems likely they would involve significantly reducing the innate resistance to swarms that vehicles have. It would have been interesting to see how those models change with the innate resistance tweaks.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
902
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Posted - 2014.03.20 21:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shooty Dangerman wrote:Why do shields have a damage threshold before recharge delay? I really don't understand the need for that.
Armor regens faster than shields and cannot be stopped, and this is what bugs you?
Best PVE idea I've seen.
Fixed link.
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Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
62
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I love Judge's videos. I do think he does a better job of pointing out problems than proposing solutions though. For one thing he seemed to be a big fan of the nerfs to swarms in 1.7 as show in this video of his. In that video he ignores the fact that swarm range isn't a cylinder that extends to the sky, but is a dome. At normal dropship altitudes, the radius of the circle of effective lock-on range is actually much smaller than what he shows. The ability of dropships to quickly buzz in-and-out of lock range before you are able to fire is also an issue, not to mention being able to light an afterburner and speed away from the swarms. I also think he got the suggested fix wrong with his Redline Rail Tank Video. I think the man focus for fixing that mechanic is changing how the redline works instead of nerfing turret elevation, which would leave dropships with very few viable options to counter them (teams of forge gunners and ramming with cheap dropships). A rail tank with a low turret elevation would be forced to the redlines and edges of the battle to hit anything in the air, which is counterproductive. It should be encouraged to engage closer to the action by adding falloff mechanics and changes to the redline.
i think that we are all just humans and after some time he found out that his first thinking was wrong.
to the marked part..
if we have suits where you can carry a AA weapon and a light weapon (in caldari case a railrifle and a swarm) then it would fix the problem that you fight with lower numbers if people have to use AV gear. if one tank/dropship forces out 3 AV gears (and you can call in like 4-5 tanks) then there is something wrong. I would also like to see the fighterjets released.
for those who never saw them.. here is a youtube vid where you can see that they allready had them done:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED-YF-v7WCw&feature=player_detailpage#t=339s
you can also see the concept art here:
http://imgur.com/a/4bKjz#9
line3 second picture |
Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1191
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:i think that we are all just humans and after some time he found out that his first thinking was wrong. to the marked part.. if we have suits where you can carry a AA weapon and a light weapon (in caldari case a railrifle and a swarm) then it would fix the problem that you fight with lower numbers if people have to use AV gear. if one tank/dropship forces out 3 AV gears (and you can call in like 4-5 tanks) then there is something wrong. I would also like to see the fighterjets released. for those who never saw them.. here is a youtube vid where you can see that they allready had them done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED-YF-v7WCw&feature=player_detailpage#t=339syou can also see the concept art here: http://imgur.com/a/4bKjz#9line3 second picture
I actually have more respect for Judge for this. I'd rather someone get it wrong, and then release a revised opinion than pretend like they're infallible.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Hobo on Fire
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
215
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Yeah, when I first started watching Judge's videos (being a long time swarm user) I was of the opinion he was looking at things too much as a pilot and didn't quite grasp just how things worked on the ground. His more recent videos show a much better understanding of Dust as a whole. |
CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1104
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Posted - 2014.03.20 22:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
So us dropship pilots love to complain about rails but to be honest in relation to the python - since the triple hardener meta has surfaced its nearly impossible to kill pythons with anything else BUT a railgun....
CCP ~balance~ for you.
I think they should just make it really simple.
2 options but I prefer A over B personally.
A - All vehicles are really cheap but all die very easily (Similar to battlefield)
or
B- All vehicles keep there awesome power but their prices goes up really high.
I say just make vehicles something cheap and something more easily killable then how they are now. I'm not saying I want this game to turn into Battlefield 514 but I do think we could definitely take a few of the really great features of BF and adapt them to dust.
Investigate 9/11
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1193
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Posted - 2014.03.20 23:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:So us dropship pilots love to complain about rails but to be honest in relation to the python - since the triple hardener meta has surfaced its nearly impossible to kill pythons with anything else BUT a railgun....
CCP ~balance~ for you.
I think they should just make it really simple.
2 options but I prefer A over B personally.
A - All vehicles are really cheap but all die very easily (Similar to battlefield)
or
B- All vehicles keep there awesome power but their prices goes up really high.
I say just make vehicles something cheap and something more easily killable then how they are now. I'm not saying I want this game to turn into Battlefield 514 but I do think we could definitely take a few of the really great features of BF and adapt them to dust.
This is the wrong approach. We should CARE about our vehicles, it should feel like something we own and worked hard for (like in EVE). That doesn't mean it should be godmode though. Someone with a proto swarm fit should also care a lot about their suit too. The way to balance vehicle price is the average ISK value of what they're able to destroy before dying. ISK efficiency should be the metric.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Disturbingly Bored
Forum Warfare
2052
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Posted - 2014.03.21 00:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:This is the wrong approach. We should CARE about our vehicles, it should feel like something we own and worked hard for (like in EVE). That doesn't mean it should be godmode though. Someone with a proto swarm fit should also care a lot about their suit too. The way to balance vehicle price is the average ISK value of what they're able to destroy before dying. ISK efficiency should be the metric.
Balancing by ISK has never worked for EVE nor DUST. It didn't work for heavies in beta, it didn't work for tanks before 1.7, it doesn't work for Titans in EVE or anything else you can possibly bring up.
There will always be someone with enough cash to say "lol wtf eva".
Though the ISK value of something should make a player care whether they lose it or not, it should not determine the relative balance of something.
I agree with CommanderBolt's point A.
Vehicles should be powerful against infantry, as they are now, but weak against AV. Vehicles should be a bit more expensive than dropsuits, but not millions of ISK. It should be viable to run tanks or dropships only, lose a couple, and still make a bit of ISK.
Rock is tanks, Scissors is Infantry, Paper is AV.
Each should be quite effective against the next, but weak against the one that precedes it.That's balanced.
I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - draconian forum overlord CCP Logibro]
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
League of Infamy
767
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Shooty Dangerman wrote:Why do shields have a damage threshold before recharge delay? I really don't understand the need for that.
Because before AR could stop a Gunnlogi from recharging any shields. It was changed so things like bumps in the road don't stop regen. The side effect is that Swarms that do piece meal damage got shafted. I made a thread about it a while ago. Solution is to have the 'theoretical damage' count for the threshold limit.
Say the Threshold is 110 damage. A Swarm hitting for 225 damage is reduced to 100 damage from hardeners. It doesn't stop the regen of the Shields at them moment. Instead have the 225 count as the Threshold damage so even if it does do less than 110 damage, it still stops the regen. |
Ansiiis The Trustworthy
Mocking Bird Inc.
894
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Posted - 2014.03.21 01:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge .
Want PVE? Wonder why?
New picture every day.
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Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
Lokun Listamenn
3612
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge .
Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
Are you OUKH?
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Garth Mandra
The Southern Legion
League of Infamy
359
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Shooty Dangerman wrote:Why do shields have a damage threshold before recharge delay? I really don't understand the need for that. Because before AR could stop a Gunnlogi from recharging any shields. It was changed so things like bumps in the road don't stop regen. The side effect is that Swarms that do piece meal damage got shafted. I made a thread about it a while ago. Solution is to have the 'theoretical damage' count for the threshold limit. Say the Threshold is 110 damage. A Swarm hitting for 225 damage is reduced to 100 damage from hardeners. It doesn't stop the regen of the Shields at them moment. Instead have the 225 count as the Threshold damage so even if it does do less than 110 damage, it still stops the regen.
A better solution might be to have damage taken per second or similar. This way if you have two separate weapons that together just beat the threshold you stop regen. Also fixes the issues with swarms.
It does mean that blasters would now stop hardened shield tanks. I don't think this is a problem though. A slight change to the meta.
Still doesn't get triggered by bumps or non-AV light weapons (unless the entire team is shooting). |
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1207
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Posted - 2014.03.21 02:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Disturbingly Bored wrote:Vell0cet wrote:This is the wrong approach. We should CARE about our vehicles, it should feel like something we own and worked hard for (like in EVE). That doesn't mean it should be godmode though. Someone with a proto swarm fit should also care a lot about their suit too. The way to balance vehicle price is the average ISK value of what they're able to destroy before dying. ISK efficiency should be the metric. Balancing by ISK has never worked for EVE nor DUST. It didn't work for heavies in beta, it didn't work for tanks before 1.7, it doesn't work for Titans in EVE or anything else you can possibly bring up. There will always be someone with enough cash to say "lol wtf eva". Though the ISK value of something should make a player care whether they lose it or not, it should not determine the relative balance of something. I agree with CommanderBolt's point A. Vehicles should be powerful against infantry, as they are now, but weak against AV. Vehicles should be a bit more expensive than dropsuits, but not millions of ISK. It should be viable to run tanks or dropships only, lose a couple, and still make a bit of ISK. Rock is tanks, Scissors is Infantry, Paper is AV. Each should be quite effective against the next, but weak against the one that precedes it.That's balanced.
There's a big difference between balancing on ISK and balancing on RELATIVE ISK (i.e. ISK efficiency). I agree that vehicles, infantry, and AV should all be balanced on good gameplay. Being able to consistently run something is entirely irrelevant if its ISK efficiency is out-of-whack.
I can't afford to run Proto gear 24/7 and have to grind in cheaper suits to have nice things (note: I'm not complaining, this is a good thing). It gives good suits value and makes me care if I live or die. This is a unique aspect of DUST that makes it more compelling than any other FPS I've ever played. I'm not sure why some vehicle users think they get to be the exception here.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p
230
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Posted - 2014.03.21 03:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
+1 ccl please watch video
Kills-Archduke Ferdinand
Balance!
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1608
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Posted - 2014.03.21 03:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
yes
Marston VC, STB Director
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
7551
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Posted - 2014.03.21 03:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea.
First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it.
Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users).
I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly.
One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long.
But that's probably not the main issue here.
Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935
The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there.
There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket basis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue.
Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
Lokun Listamenn
3618
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Posted - 2014.03.21 03:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it. Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users). I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly. One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long. But that's probably not the main issue here. Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there. There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket basis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue. Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave.
Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened.
Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
Are you OUKH?
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
7551
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Posted - 2014.03.21 04:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:
Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened.
Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
Do you even know what an ad hominem is?
Anyways, he's not calling for direct buff to swarm damage. He even says to be careful about saying that. He's calling for a rework on how that damage is applied. As far as I can see, the base damage for swarms seems fine. The problem is how the system applies that damage. This shouldn't be too hard to understand as the evidence that backs up his point is evidently clear.
But you seem to ignore that in this discussion and thus resort to an ad hominem by saying "oh he's just a butthurt DS pilot mad at tanks" which is NOT related to this discussion. This discussion is about the application of AV swarm damage and nothing more. Also, as the video clearly shows, he puts a lot of focus on AV swarms which look like absolute **** when pitted against dropships. Judge seems to want the AV swarms to be as equally affective against his own dropship as they are against other vehicles.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1208
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Posted - 2014.03.21 04:14:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:
Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened.
Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
Do you even know what an ad hominem is? Anyways, he's not calling for direct buff to swarm damage. He even says to be careful about saying that. He's calling for a rework on how that damage is applied. As far as I can see, the base damage for swarms seems fine. The problem is how the system applies that damage. This shouldn't be too hard to understand as the evidence that backs up his point is evidently clear. But you seem to ignore that in this discussion and thus resort to an ad hominem by saying "oh he's just a butthurt DS pilot mad at tanks" which is NOT related to this discussion. This discussion is about the application of AV swarm damage and nothing more. Also, as the video clearly shows, he puts a lot of focus on AV swarms which look like absolute **** when pitted against dropships. Judge seems to want the AV swarms to be as equally affective against his own dropship as they are against other vehicles.
I agree. I'm pretty sure that Judge is sincere in wanting balance. I suspect in his first swarm video, he was simply wrong about the implications (also if he had known about all of the secret resistances and such he discusses in this new video, I suspect he might have had a different opinion). IMO Judge is also wrong about how to fix rail tanks too, but I don't think he wants to deliberately break the game to benefit his preferred play style. He seems like a guy putting a lot of time and effort into pointing out problems related to vehicles because he wants them to be balanced. This game will never succeed if things continue to be as imbalanced as they are, surely Judge knows this.
This was an incredibly well-done video that really shines a light on the problems with built-in resistances and the imbalances that exist. I don't see how anyone could watch it and come away thinking otherwise.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Michael Arck
Onuoto Uakan Huogaatsu
Lokun Listamenn
3620
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Posted - 2014.03.21 04:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:
Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened.
Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
Do you even know what an ad hominem is? Anyways, he's not calling for direct buff to swarm damage. He even says to be careful about saying that. He's calling for a rework on how that damage is applied. As far as I can see, the base damage for swarms seems fine. The problem is how the system applies that damage. This shouldn't be too hard to understand as the evidence that backs up his point is evidently clear. But you seem to ignore that in this discussion and thus resort to an ad hominem by saying "oh he's just a butthurt DS pilot mad at tanks" which is NOT related to this discussion. This discussion is about the application of AV swarm damage and nothing more. Also, as the video clearly shows, he puts a lot of focus on AV swarms which look like absolute **** when pitted against dropships. Judge seems to want the AV swarms to be as equally affective against his own dropship as they are against other vehicles.
Yea I do, do you? I'm calling things as they are. I didn't use the term "butthurt". That is how it happened. You can omit the info if you want to. A disagreement with someone's perspectives does not boil down to ad hominem, especially with my post.
I can post what I feel and I posted constructively. I used tact. You do know what tact means, don't you? Don't even bother replying to me macintosh, I won't even see it.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu.
Are you OUKH?
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boba's fetta
Dead Man's Game
392
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Posted - 2014.03.21 04:31:00 -
[29] - Quote
people who say well ive killed stuff with my swarms dont relise you can kill tanks and drop ships with you rifle hmg and grenades. its not how much damage it does its who gets the final blow.
also as someone who use's tanks a lot im not sure all the examples are double hardened. which just makes it worse.
props to judge.
i want proxie chat so i can run around in the gall heavy saying GET IN MAH BELLY. nah just kidding trade window please=)
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LT SHANKS
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
1655
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 05:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Give me a Swarm that fires out 6 proto breach FG rounds and I'll be happy. |
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Reign Omega
BurgezzE.T.F
General Tso's Alliance
221
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 05:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:Vell0cet wrote:I love Judge's videos. I do think he does a better job of pointing out problems than proposing solutions though. For one thing he seemed to be a big fan of the nerfs to swarms in 1.7 as show in this video of his. In that video he ignores the fact that swarm range isn't a cylinder that extends to the sky, but is a dome. At normal dropship altitudes, the radius of the circle of effective lock-on range is actually much smaller than what he shows. The ability of dropships to quickly buzz in-and-out of lock range before you are able to fire is also an issue, not to mention being able to light an afterburner and speed away from the swarms. I also think he got the suggested fix wrong with his Redline Rail Tank Video. I think the man focus for fixing that mechanic is changing how the redline works instead of nerfing turret elevation, which would leave dropships with very few viable options to counter them (teams of forge gunners and ramming with cheap dropships). A rail tank with a low turret elevation would be forced to the redlines and edges of the battle to hit anything in the air, which is counterproductive. It should be encouraged to engage closer to the action by adding falloff mechanics and changes to the redline. i think that we are all just humans and after some time he found out that his first thinking was wrong. to the marked part.. if we have suits where you can carry a AA weapon and a light weapon (in caldari case a railrifle and a swarm) then it would fix the problem that you fight with lower numbers if people have to use AV gear. if one tank/dropship forces out 3 AV gears (and you can call in like 4-5 tanks) then there is something wrong. I would also like to see the fighterjets released. for those who never saw them.. here is a youtube vid where you can see that they allready had them done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED-YF-v7WCw&feature=player_detailpage#t=339syou can also see the concept art here: http://imgur.com/a/4bKjz#9uline3 second picture
Your prayers have been answered!
Say hello to the Caldari commando!! |
lok rark
StealthSquad
32
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 10:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Im glad that Judge followed this through... Good on you Judge.
I was secretly hating on him for, almost, singlehandedly nerfing swarms and not saying anything about the current state of Swarms. Until this video which proved me wrong...
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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC
489
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 10:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
All av soloing vehicles = balance
That's it.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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KatanaPT
Tech Guard
RISE of LEGION
604
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 10:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
+1...
Tech Guard Recruiting Spot
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andoori kaldrojian
SilenT AngelS
2
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 10:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
I hope CCP watch the youtube vid.
The only reason I can see for them not to act on this is money. i.e. they make a shed load of dosh from aurum tanks(does CCP have shareholders?). Can't see any other reason for this not to be fixed. |
KGB Sleep
882
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 10:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
The vid is pretty damning.
Someone go to the store and get some honeyed lamb. We're going to need a lot of it.
Because beer, that's why.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1210
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 13:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
andoori kaldrojian wrote:I hope CCP watch the youtube vid.
The only reason I can see for them not to act on this is money. i.e. they make a shed load of dosh from aurum tanks(does CCP have shareholders?). Can't see any other reason for this not to be fixed.
CCP isn't stupid. They know they'll make a LOT more money by having a fun, balanced game and growing the playerbase over time. If they don't act it will be because the fix may require changes to the code that won't be hot fixable, and they may be waiting on a big fanfest release. I think they need a 1.9 April release with just balance changes.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Tau Lai
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 14:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXEi think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance
This video is pretty good about showing the matter with AV swarms.
But anyway, even when I endorse it, every player with a little of sense know this was happening and CCP is aware of it.
They doesn't care.
I am adding "buy a dropship" to my sign from now on.
I can see you
Buy a tank
Buy a dropship
|
Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
77
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 15:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tau Lai wrote:Havaru Fox wrote:the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXEi think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance This video is pretty good about showing the matter with AV swarms. But anyway, even when I endorse it, every player with a little of sense know this was happening and CCP is aware of it. They don't care.
I'm not so sure about it anymore, because CCP is good at pushing things into a way that they want (or should i say.. push the meta into a way they need to balance it?)
with the last event we got a lot of SP.
what happents? tank,tanks and more tanks+ dropships
what comes now? a event that rewards commando suits and sidearms, while a kill with a commando with a sidearm gives you both rewards at once. so what we will see is a lot of commando's with a rifle and a sidearm OR a swarm for AV.
right now we need 3 swarms to kill one tank and in this case a squat vs a tank (if he will stay long enoth and cant kill the commandos) would be balanced. in ambush you would just all spawn as commandos and just blow them up. maybe commandos with 1-2 heavys and logi support could become the new meta.
technically we had the "solution" of the AV firepower the whole time, but the meta didnt change, because people didnt spec into amarr suits to unlock the commando. |
Lanius Pulvis
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
200
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea.
Not sure I see a link between the problem they had, versus the problem they have. If snipers had a smart fire rifle and an unobstructed view of almost the whole map, would that be an issue to you?
Not new, just new to you.
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pyramidhead 420
Carbon 7
CRONOS.
387
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea.
these people only hear judge's nice speaking voice and agree with what he says. this video is just to win favor for his upcoming cpm campaign. go kill judge in an ads with swarms and he'll be singing you a different tune. |
Bax Zanith
95
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea.
Are you implying that this is only a dropship QQing? Are you implying that swarms are fine and nothing should be done about it? Because that what it sounds like your implying.
I'd say walk in my shoes for a day, but you probably still won't understand.
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
1991
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it. Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users). I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly. One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long. But that's probably not the main issue here. Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there. There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket basis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue. Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave. Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened. Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
No. Idiot, watch his video. Judge not once asks for a damage increase, just says swarms need to apply damage correctly. As it is swarms are treated like it's an assault rifle hitting it.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1910
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
Seems to me that the problem with the shield regen is that the check is done against individual applications of damage when it should be checking against the total amount of damage applied in the last second, or some other short timeframe. If more than one hostile is hitting you at the same time the damage should be aggregated when calculating whether or not your shield regen timer is activated.
In theory this would also mean that if you have enough non-AV weapons shooting at a target that they'll start taking it down...which also makes sense. The trick would be setting the threshold high enough to stop bumpy roads and small groups of rifles from triggering it while also allowing swarms to trip it. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2375
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 16:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Even though swarm missiles don't trigger the shield regen check due to their damage application, the problem with swarms is deeper than that.
I would actually say atm, that a hardened armor tank with a rep on can stand swarms more effectively than a shield tank. The passive armor regen is insane.
Before doing anything else, removing the ability to stack active modules needs to be removed from the game. Double damage mods (ESP with rails) and double hardeners are a serious issue atm.
The fix would be to make active mods stack in parallel and not in series. So that two hardeners is still possible to activate, but one mod overwrites the other.
Next, I think STD tanks need some sort of passive resist and hardeners should be reduced in efficacy. The power to cost ratio on MLT tanks atm is far too high. |
Nothing Certain
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
330
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 17:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it. Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users). I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly. One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long. But that's probably not the main issue here. Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there. There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket b asis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue. Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave. Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened. Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
At first I thought this was funny, responding to accusations of an ad hominem argument by clarifying it was an ad hominem argument, however upon further thought your response was to the statement that CCP should hire Judge, the subject IS the man, therefore replies about the man are topical and not ad hom.
It was an excellent video and analysis and it seems Judge now realizes just how difficult changing things to create balance is.
Because, that's why.
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 20:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
bump
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Lanius Pulvis
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
202
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 21:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
The issue Judge is addressing in this video is not a direct result of the range and damage nerf that the most vocal in the community, including myself, asked for. The damage swarms claim to have now, coupled with current range and improving the missile speed, would be fine...if that damage was applied! Judge shows not just examples of tank resistances but dropships as well, pointing out that both are broken in regards to swarms. This clearly refutes the claim that he made this because he can't survive tanks. Some people should really learn what the word balance means!
And no, I don't think CCP should hire Judge, right now he's an independent voice who can get community support by bringing issues to their attention. If he worked for CCP he'd be, if not muzzled, then effectively neutralised.
Not new, just new to you.
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
50
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 21:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lanius Pulvis wrote:The issue Judge is addressing in this video is not a direct result of the range and damage nerf that the most vocal in the community, including myself, asked for. The damage swarms claim to have now, coupled with current range and improving the missile speed, would be fine...if that damage was applied! Judge shows not just examples of tank resistances but dropships as well, pointing out that both are broken in regards to swarms. This clearly refutes the claim that he made this because he can't survive tanks. Some people should really learn what the word balance means!
And no, I don't think CCP should hire Judge, right now he's an independent voice who can get community support by bringing issues to their attention. If he worked for CCP he'd be, if not muzzled, then effectively neutralised.
this problem applies also to the AV grenades IMO
so the applied panacea in the meaning of correct dmg calculations toward native resistance plus hardeners would fix AV damage across the board!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
51
|
Posted - 2014.03.21 22:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
bumping till blue tag appears
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
81
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 13:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Zene Ren wrote:bumping till blue tag appears
i hope we get a ccp voice on this
+1 |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
2251
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 13:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
While I in no way disagree with his conclusions, I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing.
It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example.
I would have hoped that he'd organised a squad or two to run through it with him; it'd have taken no more than four people, all of whom could even have been pilots, and his live results would have been much more controlled.
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there.
ak.0 4 LYFE
Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1214
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 13:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:While I in no way disagree with his conclusions, I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing.
It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example.
I would have hoped that he'd organised a squad or two to run through it with him; it'd have taken no more than four people, all of whom could even have been pilots, and his live results would have been much more controlled.
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there.
Uh... He was being shot at by tanks and dropships, that makes it hard to be "meticulous." I thought he did a pretty damn good job given the circumstances.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
1699
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 14:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:........I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing.
It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example......
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there.
This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers.
Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can.
You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios.
Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV?
Everything Dropship youtube channel
my Community Spotlight
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
54
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 16:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:
This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers.
Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can.
You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios.
Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV?
all i can say is thanks for the vid man
cheers and let us see dust as it should be
the vision of this game and its Eve tie ins is still something much more then any other generic FPS on the market
cheers again and let us see each other in balanced game CYA!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Archer Yorcot
S.e.V.e.N.
General Tso's Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 16:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Outstanding work Judge, please keep the videos coming.
I wonder what the implications are for the data CCP has been collecting on swarms since 1.7.
How can CCP trust their own metrics when every swarm/vehicle encounter has been skewed by broken damage application?
This forum signature is OP.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood
General Tso's Alliance
1214
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 17:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:........I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing.
It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example......
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there. This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers. Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can. You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios. Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV?
Thanks for the videos Judge. I know you were reluctant to discuss possible solutions in the clip, but how about doing so here. Did you play with the models and come up with some numbers that could work better?
Best PvE idea ever!
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CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES
RISE of LEGION
1115
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 18:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
A balanced DUST 514 = good unique fun game.
DUST 514 in its current state = unique with occasional good fights but mostly broken IMBA laggy poop.
Investigate 9/11
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Pvt Numnutz
R 0 N 1 N
1010
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 18:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Woah! Swarms do the same to shields as they do to armor on dropships? And its lower than on tanks and lavs?! That ain't right..... |
Sam Booty
Valor Coalition
Red Whines.
48
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 19:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fix this **** CCP. Dumb ass game!
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.22 20:24:00 -
[61] - Quote
Bumped for more attention
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
55
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 10:49:00 -
[62] - Quote
Bump
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
|
Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
57
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:48:00 -
[63] - Quote
bump for dev tag
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Nirwanda Vaughns
Death Firm.
452
|
Posted - 2014.03.23 19:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
i proposed th esame solutions since the range lock nerf with using either one or both would help AV out not just vs DS but also tanks as well
1. new module that increases lock range of swarms. its a high slot so you choose between damag emod or range. that means that vs dropships and LAVs which are fast low HP targets you can use longer lock range. with slower higher hp targets you go all damage.
2. specialization skills.
Swarm missile velocity - 10% per level increase swarm missile flight velocity
Swarm missile flight time - 10% per level increase swarm missile flight time
Swarm launcher efficicacy - 10% per level swarm laucnher lock range
make each one a 4x multiplier skill (in between raid reload/ammo cpaacity and proficiency) it gives those of us who really want to run AV the chance to actually be effective again but at a cost. sure its not a comlete solution but i'd be happy to spend a couple months training skills if i knew i could then do a better job of making tanks run
Rolling with the punches
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
60
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
bumped for more attention
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Sam Booty
Valor Coalition
Red Whines.
57
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 15:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:
2. specialization skills.
Swarm missile velocity - 10% per level increase swarm missile flight velocity
Swarm missile flight time - 10% per level increase swarm missile flight time
Swarm launcher efficicacy - 10% per level swarm laucnher lock range
10% in speed may be not enough. Swarms should be at least 2x faster than the fastest possible dropship. Nowadays you have surface-to-air missiles of Mach 2. So in the future you will have a crummy swarm launchers that can't even catch a big dropship? Makes no sense. |
Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
61
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 22:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
bump for people unaware of what is wrong with swarms and nades toward tanks and dropships
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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LittleCuteBunny
385
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Posted - 2014.03.24 22:51:00 -
[68] - Quote
If the swarms had the same eficiency against all vehicles, you will see dropships not bieing as OP as they look.
Recruiter Link
Retired.
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
61
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Posted - 2014.03.24 22:53:00 -
[69] - Quote
LittleCuteBunny wrote:If the swarms had the same eficiency against all vehicles, you will see dropships not bieing as OP as they look.
i hope you watched the vid that OP pasted
after that vid you would know that dmg, from SWARMS and probably AV nades, made toward hardeners onto HAV and DS is simply broken...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
7618
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Posted - 2014.03.24 23:06:00 -
[70] - Quote
Zene Ren wrote:LittleCuteBunny wrote:If the swarms had the same eficiency against all vehicles, you will see dropships not bieing as OP as they look. i hope you watched the vid that OP pasted after that vid you would know that dmg, from SWARMS and probably AV nades, made toward hardeners onto HAV and DS is simply broken...
The central issue being that the application of the damage is not correctly applied.
In English, this means the mathematical formula used in the game is flawed as hell. That's like implementing E=MC^3 rather than E=MC^2. Or like implementing A^2+C^2=B^2 when it should A^2+B^2=C^2.
Dedicated Scout // Ninja Knifer
Everything I know about the Caldari I learned at Nouvelle Rouvenor
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Xaviah Reaper
Nyain San
Dirt Nap Squad.
323
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Posted - 2014.03.24 23:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXEi think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance
Judge certainly is making a name for himself :) deserves it too. If i had a capture card and some decent internet, I'd be supporting the same cause. (eta May 2014)
most common words on the forums? ccp, fix, imbalance, annoying, frustrating, stupid, broken, OP, Tanks, dropships.......
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
64
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Posted - 2014.03.24 23:22:00 -
[72] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Zene Ren wrote:LittleCuteBunny wrote:If the swarms had the same eficiency against all vehicles, you will see dropships not bieing as OP as they look. i hope you watched the vid that OP pasted after that vid you would know that dmg, from SWARMS and probably AV nades, made toward hardeners onto HAV and DS is simply broken... The central issue being that the application of the damage is not correctly applied. In English, this means the mathematical formula used in the game is flawed as hell. That's like implementing E=MC^3 rather than E=MC^2. Or like implementing A^2+C^2=B^2 when it should A^2+B^2=C^2.
this^
not that easy with algorithm but every 15+ person should now understand the general problem with the HAV and DS
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Glass Zeraki
The Phoenix Federation
39
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Posted - 2014.03.24 23:44:00 -
[73] - Quote
Great video! Beautifully done!
"Over to you CCP. You've been judged." XD
Sub-Director of The Phoenix Federation. Shut up or I'll mute you.
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
1728
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Posted - 2014.03.25 09:29:00 -
[74] - Quote
Zene Ren wrote:after that vid you would know that dmg, from SWARMS and probably AV nades, made toward hardeners onto HAV and DS is simply broken...
In the video I was careful to talk about double hardened vehicles. A single hardener drops swarm damage to 55 as I showed. It's 22 for a double hardened one. Damage of 103 will stop shield regen. A swarm missile does 138 to an unhardened ship.
So the main issue is running two hardeners at the same time or fitting several hardeners and running them one after the other. This is what keeps swarms from doing too much damage. A single hardened tank or dropships is not nearly as unbalanced because its window of opportunity is much smaller. 2 hardeners running one after the other gives a huge window then a small break then they are back on the hardeners again.
Against an unhardened ship they are much more balanced, again as I showed against the unhardened Sica.
The big issue is two hardeners running at the same time and running several hardeners one after the other. But its deeper than this. The hardener resistance plays a key part here, and is directly related to the damage threshold and the shield regen rate. You CANNOT fix the issue by just changing one of these things. for example dropping resistance levels directly impacts forge gun balance.
In and upcoming video I show the issue with triple repping tanks and double repping dropships plus have a look at tanks stupid ability to change direction and it's nascar like speed. These both make AV balance even more broken.
Everything Dropship youtube channel
my Community Spotlight
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
65
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Posted - 2014.03.25 20:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
bumped for more attention
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster
65
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Posted - 2014.03.27 13:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
bumped for people complaining about the hardeners nerf
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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