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Reign Omega
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
221
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Posted - 2014.03.21 05:42:00 -
[31] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:Vell0cet wrote:I love Judge's videos. I do think he does a better job of pointing out problems than proposing solutions though. For one thing he seemed to be a big fan of the nerfs to swarms in 1.7 as show in this video of his. In that video he ignores the fact that swarm range isn't a cylinder that extends to the sky, but is a dome. At normal dropship altitudes, the radius of the circle of effective lock-on range is actually much smaller than what he shows. The ability of dropships to quickly buzz in-and-out of lock range before you are able to fire is also an issue, not to mention being able to light an afterburner and speed away from the swarms. I also think he got the suggested fix wrong with his Redline Rail Tank Video. I think the man focus for fixing that mechanic is changing how the redline works instead of nerfing turret elevation, which would leave dropships with very few viable options to counter them (teams of forge gunners and ramming with cheap dropships). A rail tank with a low turret elevation would be forced to the redlines and edges of the battle to hit anything in the air, which is counterproductive. It should be encouraged to engage closer to the action by adding falloff mechanics and changes to the redline. i think that we are all just humans and after some time he found out that his first thinking was wrong. to the marked part.. if we have suits where you can carry a AA weapon and a light weapon (in caldari case a railrifle and a swarm) then it would fix the problem that you fight with lower numbers if people have to use AV gear. if one tank/dropship forces out 3 AV gears (and you can call in like 4-5 tanks) then there is something wrong. I would also like to see the fighterjets released. for those who never saw them.. here is a youtube vid where you can see that they allready had them done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED-YF-v7WCw&feature=player_detailpage#t=339syou can also see the concept art here: http://imgur.com/a/4bKjz#9uline3 second picture
Your prayers have been answered!
Say hello to the Caldari commando!! |
lok rark
StealthSquad
32
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Posted - 2014.03.21 10:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Im glad that Judge followed this through... Good on you Judge.
I was secretly hating on him for, almost, singlehandedly nerfing swarms and not saying anything about the current state of Swarms. Until this video which proved me wrong...
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Auris Lionesse
Capital Acquisitions LLC
489
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Posted - 2014.03.21 10:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
All av soloing vehicles = balance
That's it.
Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles! Gallente Heavy Ninja Turtles!
Heroes in a half Gank!
TURTLE POWER!!!
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KatanaPT
Tech Guard RISE of LEGION
604
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Posted - 2014.03.21 10:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
+1...
Tech Guard Recruiting Spot
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andoori kaldrojian
SilenT AngelS
2
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Posted - 2014.03.21 10:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
I hope CCP watch the youtube vid.
The only reason I can see for them not to act on this is money. i.e. they make a shed load of dosh from aurum tanks(does CCP have shareholders?). Can't see any other reason for this not to be fixed. |
KGB Sleep
882
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Posted - 2014.03.21 10:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
The vid is pretty damning.
Someone go to the store and get some honeyed lamb. We're going to need a lot of it.
Because beer, that's why.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
1210
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Posted - 2014.03.21 13:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
andoori kaldrojian wrote:I hope CCP watch the youtube vid.
The only reason I can see for them not to act on this is money. i.e. they make a shed load of dosh from aurum tanks(does CCP have shareholders?). Can't see any other reason for this not to be fixed. CCP isn't stupid. They know they'll make a LOT more money by having a fun, balanced game and growing the playerbase over time. If they don't act it will be because the fix may require changes to the code that won't be hot fixable, and they may be waiting on a big fanfest release. I think they need a 1.9 April release with just balance changes.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Tau Lai
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2014.03.21 14:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Havaru Fox wrote:the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXEi think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance This video is pretty good about showing the matter with AV swarms. But anyway, even when I endorse it, every player with a little of sense know this was happening and CCP is aware of it. They doesn't care.
I am adding "buy a dropship" to my sign from now on.
I can see you
Buy a tank
Buy a dropship
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Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
77
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Posted - 2014.03.21 15:34:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tau Lai wrote:Havaru Fox wrote:the new vid is out. please dont forget to like on youtube if you enjoyed it. http://youtu.be/ls7hOEdNgXEi think he is by far the best when it comes to critics about the balance This video is pretty good about showing the matter with AV swarms. But anyway, even when I endorse it, every player with a little of sense know this was happening and CCP is aware of it. They don't care.
I'm not so sure about it anymore, because CCP is good at pushing things into a way that they want (or should i say.. push the meta into a way they need to balance it?)
with the last event we got a lot of SP. what happents? tank,tanks and more tanks+ dropships
what comes now? a event that rewards commando suits and sidearms, while a kill with a commando with a sidearm gives you both rewards at once. so what we will see is a lot of commando's with a rifle and a sidearm OR a swarm for AV.
right now we need 3 swarms to kill one tank and in this case a squat vs a tank (if he will stay long enoth and cant kill the commandos) would be balanced. in ambush you would just all spawn as commandos and just blow them up. maybe commandos with 1-2 heavys and logi support could become the new meta.
technically we had the "solution" of the AV firepower the whole time, but the meta didnt change, because people didnt spec into amarr suits to unlock the commando. |
Lanius Pulvis
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
200
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. Not sure I see a link between the problem they had, versus the problem they have. If snipers had a smart fire rifle and an unobstructed view of almost the whole map, would that be an issue to you?
Not new, just new to you.
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pyramidhead 420
Carbon 7 CRONOS.
387
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. these people only hear judge's nice speaking voice and agree with what he says. this video is just to win favor for his upcoming cpm campaign. go kill judge in an ads with swarms and he'll be singing you a different tune. |
Bax Zanith
95
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:26:00 -
[42] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. Are you implying that this is only a dropship QQing? Are you implying that swarms are fine and nothing should be done about it? Because that what it sounds like your implying.
I'd say walk in my shoes for a day, but you probably still won't understand.
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Paran Tadec
The Hetairoi
1991
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it. Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users). I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly. One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long. But that's probably not the main issue here. Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there. There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket basis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue. Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave. Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened. Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
No. Idiot, watch his video. Judge not once asks for a damage increase, just says swarms need to apply damage correctly. As it is swarms are treated like it's an assault rifle hitting it.
Bittervet Proficiency V
thanks logibro!
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1910
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
Seems to me that the problem with the shield regen is that the check is done against individual applications of damage when it should be checking against the total amount of damage applied in the last second, or some other short timeframe. If more than one hostile is hitting you at the same time the damage should be aggregated when calculating whether or not your shield regen timer is activated.
In theory this would also mean that if you have enough non-AV weapons shooting at a target that they'll start taking it down...which also makes sense. The trick would be setting the threshold high enough to stop bumpy roads and small groups of rifles from triggering it while also allowing swarms to trip it. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback
2375
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Posted - 2014.03.21 16:55:00 -
[45] - Quote
Even though swarm missiles don't trigger the shield regen check due to their damage application, the problem with swarms is deeper than that.
I would actually say atm, that a hardened armor tank with a rep on can stand swarms more effectively than a shield tank. The passive armor regen is insane.
Before doing anything else, removing the ability to stack active modules needs to be removed from the game. Double damage mods (ESP with rails) and double hardeners are a serious issue atm.
The fix would be to make active mods stack in parallel and not in series. So that two hardeners is still possible to activate, but one mod overwrites the other.
Next, I think STD tanks need some sort of passive resist and hardeners should be reduced in efficacy. The power to cost ratio on MLT tanks atm is far too high. |
Nothing Certain
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
330
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Posted - 2014.03.21 17:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:Michael Arck wrote:Ansiiis The Trustworthy wrote:The sad fact is that I did not even notice those swarms... They need to hire Judge . Yea hire the guy who was all about the swarm nerf, range and damage but now is singing a different tune because rail tanks are a problem for him. yea. First off, stop it with the ad hominem. That has nothing to do with this subject and you know it. Second, Judge is didn't post that video from the point of view of the dropship pilot. He posted that video from the point of view of the very players that are trying to kill him (swarm launcher users). I am not a dropship pilot nor a tank pilot. In fact, I have absolutely no skills at all invested in vehicles. But I do have skills invested at least up to the Advanced Swarm Launcher and I have had to deal with vehicles constantly. One can easily assume that teamwork is needed. But as Judge pointed out in that video at least 2-3 times on 2-3 separate situations, even teamwork wasn't enough. A team of swarms engaging a dropship for 44 seconds non-stop should have resulted in that one dropship from getting destroyed even with hardners active. But instead, the hardener is just too strong or at least the hardener is lasting too long. But that's probably not the main issue here. Take a look at this part of the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ls7hOEdNgXE#t=935The main issue it seems is that swarm damage is not being applied properly. A total swarm damage of about 880 from a militia swarm being reduced to no more than 300 damage is a 66% reduction in overall damage. That's a 34% efficiency rating for the swarms even though the efficiency rating listed (earlier in the video) on the hud says it's suppose to be 55%. At least 484 damage should be applied. But the main issue doesn't stop there. There is also the issue of the damage threshold. It's not reading the swarm damage as a volley or within a per-second basis. It's reading the swarm damage on a per-rocket b asis and it's treating the rockets like a typical non-AV as opposed to a typical AV. This is a problem as well that's adding to the issue. Then there is the issue that not even a dedicated team of swarms is able to take on a hardened DS or tank as seen at least twice in the video. If the pilot is smart enough, they will only enter the battlefield or near the danger zone with the hardeners on which last approximately 1 minute. If they run out of hardeners, they pull out and fall back to cooldown in relative safety leaving the swarms with nothing. The same is true to tanks. So far, as an AV swarm user myself, I have seen tanks only come in with hardeners active, destroy us, and then leave. Before I read your post, just where exactly is the ad hominem? Seriously. That's exactly how it happened. Let the truth be the truth. Judge was very vocal and happy about the swarm range and damage nerf...now he is all for increasing damage? Why? Because his dropship is getting blown outta the sky now? So he's all for it because it benefits him. Just like he was all for the swarm nerf, since he can camp flight objectives. C'mon now, I'm not even making this up.
At first I thought this was funny, responding to accusations of an ad hominem argument by clarifying it was an ad hominem argument, however upon further thought your response was to the statement that CCP should hire Judge, the subject IS the man, therefore replies about the man are topical and not ad hom.
It was an excellent video and analysis and it seems Judge now realizes just how difficult changing things to create balance is.
Because, that's why.
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
50
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Posted - 2014.03.21 20:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
bump
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Lanius Pulvis
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
202
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Posted - 2014.03.21 21:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
The issue Judge is addressing in this video is not a direct result of the range and damage nerf that the most vocal in the community, including myself, asked for. The damage swarms claim to have now, coupled with current range and improving the missile speed, would be fine...if that damage was applied! Judge shows not just examples of tank resistances but dropships as well, pointing out that both are broken in regards to swarms. This clearly refutes the claim that he made this because he can't survive tanks. Some people should really learn what the word balance means!
And no, I don't think CCP should hire Judge, right now he's an independent voice who can get community support by bringing issues to their attention. If he worked for CCP he'd be, if not muzzled, then effectively neutralised.
Not new, just new to you.
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
50
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Posted - 2014.03.21 21:42:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lanius Pulvis wrote:The issue Judge is addressing in this video is not a direct result of the range and damage nerf that the most vocal in the community, including myself, asked for. The damage swarms claim to have now, coupled with current range and improving the missile speed, would be fine...if that damage was applied! Judge shows not just examples of tank resistances but dropships as well, pointing out that both are broken in regards to swarms. This clearly refutes the claim that he made this because he can't survive tanks. Some people should really learn what the word balance means!
And no, I don't think CCP should hire Judge, right now he's an independent voice who can get community support by bringing issues to their attention. If he worked for CCP he'd be, if not muzzled, then effectively neutralised.
this problem applies also to the AV grenades IMO
so the applied panacea in the meaning of correct dmg calculations toward native resistance plus hardeners would fix AV damage across the board!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
51
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Posted - 2014.03.21 22:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
bumping till blue tag appears
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Havaru Fox
Golden Empire of EvE
81
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Posted - 2014.03.22 13:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Zene Ren wrote:bumping till blue tag appears i hope we get a ccp voice on this
+1 |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
2251
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Posted - 2014.03.22 13:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
While I in no way disagree with his conclusions, I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing. It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example. I would have hoped that he'd organised a squad or two to run through it with him; it'd have taken no more than four people, all of whom could even have been pilots, and his live results would have been much more controlled.
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there.
ak.0 4 LYFE
Large Missile Turrets: the real unicorns of DUST.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
1214
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Posted - 2014.03.22 13:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:While I in no way disagree with his conclusions, I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing. It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example. I would have hoped that he'd organised a squad or two to run through it with him; it'd have taken no more than four people, all of whom could even have been pilots, and his live results would have been much more controlled.
As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there. Uh... He was being shot at by tanks and dropships, that makes it hard to be "meticulous." I thought he did a pretty damn good job given the circumstances.
Best PvE idea ever!
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Judge Rhadamanthus
Amarr Templar One
1699
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Posted - 2014.03.22 14:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:........I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing. It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example...... As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there.
This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers.
Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can.
You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios.
Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV?
Everything Dropship youtube channel
my Community Spotlight
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Zene Ren
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
54
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Posted - 2014.03.22 16:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers.
Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can.
You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios.
Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV?
all i can say is thanks for the vid man cheers and let us see dust as it should be the vision of this game and its Eve tie ins is still something much more then any other generic FPS on the market
cheers again and let us see each other in balanced game CYA!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Archer Yorcot
S.e.V.e.N. General Tso's Alliance
10
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Posted - 2014.03.22 16:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Outstanding work Judge, please keep the videos coming.
I wonder what the implications are for the data CCP has been collecting on swarms since 1.7.
How can CCP trust their own metrics when every swarm/vehicle encounter has been skewed by broken damage application?
This forum signature is OP.
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Vell0cet
SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance
1214
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Posted - 2014.03.22 17:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
Judge Rhadamanthus wrote:Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:........I do think he might have been more meticulous in his live testing. It seems a bit off that he's showing us during a battlefield scenario; there are all sorts of variables that must be taken into account when doing something like that. I saw a few swarm missiles impact on terrain at several points in the video, for example...... As it is, the video is essentially 21 minutes of spectacle with a few graphs being the only important things there. This is a video about the issues. This is in no way the sum total of my testing nor representative of how I gather all my data. It does however form part of the testing. If a control test shows swarms can kill an ADS in 10 hits for example but in no real battle is it possible to ever land 10 hits then the control test does not represent anything other than raw numbers. Many people need to see it rather than just look at a chart that says it. A chart can be dismissed more easily then watching 3 of us trying to take on a vehicle can. You need both control battle tests and "in the wild" battle data, These are also useless without a data model. to look for anomalies and run many scenarios. Also who wants to watch 20 minutes of me standing in a corner shooting 11 different builds of a swarm launcher into an ads..Then again into a tank...then a LAV? Thanks for the videos Judge. I know you were reluctant to discuss possible solutions in the clip, but how about doing so here. Did you play with the models and come up with some numbers that could work better?
Best PvE idea ever!
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CommanderBolt
ACME SPECIAL FORCES RISE of LEGION
1115
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Posted - 2014.03.22 18:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
A balanced DUST 514 = good unique fun game.
DUST 514 in its current state = unique with occasional good fights but mostly broken IMBA laggy poop.
Investigate 9/11
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Pvt Numnutz
R 0 N 1 N
1010
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Posted - 2014.03.22 18:30:00 -
[59] - Quote
Woah! Swarms do the same to shields as they do to armor on dropships? And its lower than on tanks and lavs?! That ain't right..... |
Sam Booty
Valor Coalition Red Whines.
48
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Posted - 2014.03.22 19:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fix this **** CCP. Dumb ass game!
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