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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2250
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Posted - 2014.06.05 23:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
lots of detailed work
I haven't given this a deep read through yet only a first pass so please forgive me if this has been addressed and I've missed it.
Here are my questions, does this proposal address
- The role distortion between racial logi caused by the combined effect of equipment fittings reduction and equipment slot number disparity at pro level?
- Are the slot alterations made with consideration for the baseline stat disparities between logi and assault frames?
- How does the proposal maintain/improve the equilibrium of the risk vs reward baseline (i.e. tactical value and potential earnings being normalized between roles at X SP/ISK investment)
- What steps does the proposal take to improve/protect the viability of support play, especially at higher levels such as PC?
- What is the method used to assess equipment slot value in light of the recent equipment nerfs and racial buff narrowing on logistics suits?
- What, if any, are the specific changes made to reduce the presence of "killer bees" at pro levels rather than apply a generalized frame wide nerf, which will inevitably effect support play as well?
Based on my initial read the above questions have not been thoroughly accounted for. However I reiterate that I may have missed something, especially in light of the ongoing nature of this thread. If I have missed answers to these questions, or there are answers available now, please do direct me too them.
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2258
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 01:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:
Not sure what you mean by the role distortion caused by equipment fitting bonus, and equipment slot disparity, but in my plan the Caldari logi will have 4 equipment slots at prototype just like the Gallente and Minmatar in exchange for having 8 modules instead of 9. The Amarr logi still will only have 3 at proto, but only because it gains a sidearm, though alternatively I suppose the Amarr logi could have 1 less module than other logis in exchange for having its equipment increased to match other racial logis; either way, equipment slots or module slots (but not both as it is now) should be a tradeoff for the sidearm.
Regarding your concerns about improving/protecting support play, in my plan lower tier logis should be more durable which will allow them to do their jobs better without dying, and the Caldari logi gets an equipment slot at both standard and prototype tiers meaning they have more tools for which to support.
Slot alterations are indeed proposed with base stats in mind, I do no want logis to have less module slots than their assault counterparts, I want them to have the same amount of module slots so the assault's base HP can really make a difference.
As for killer-bees, for the most parts I don't want to nerf logis, I want to buff assaults to have module slot counts that match logis at prototype. The assault's higher base HP + equal module slots = assaults can tank slightly more HP than logis, meaning logis will not be the best offensive medium frame. I think that solves the slayer logi issue.
The plan is basically this:
Make assaults and logis have the same racially consistent module slot layouts, this will make the assault's higher base HP truly matter, and not lead to slayer logis. The slayer logi issue existed because at prototype, all logis have more modules and can thus tank more HP than their assault counterpart; my plan fixes this. All assaults and logis start with 6 modules standard, 7 modules advanced, and 8 modules prototype (most logis have 8 or less right now anyway).
+1 module slot per tier smooth progression to close the unnecessarily large gap between tiers. The huge gap between medium frame tiers is only present with medium frames; lights and heavies have a sensible +1 module per tier progression. Fixing this would especially benefit lower tier logis which are generally just awful.
The only place this requires extra changes is with the Cal logi: there is no reason for it to start with only 2 equipment at standard, the Amarr one starts with 2 equipment as well but only because it gains a sidearm, so the Cal logi needs a 3rd equipment at standard. Logis generally have 1 more module slot at prototype than their assault counterparts, but the Cal logi gets +2 module slots (9 modules total) at prototype, but does not gain a 4th equipment slot; while this tradeoff is arguably fair, it allows a Caldari logi to tank more HP than a Cal assault, even with my plan to buff assault module slots to 8, and the slayer logi issue would continue. In light of this, I propose reducing prototype Cal logi modules from 9 to 8, and in exchange giving them a 4th equipment.
Make basic medium frames have the same module slot and layout as the proposed assaults and logis, but -1; in exchange, basic mediums should get a 2nd equipment slot. This makes the basic medium have a purpose beyond a crappier assault that quickly becomes obsolete once you unlock a real assault. This also makes the basic mediums a flexible generalist role between assaults and logis; lets you try out both the assault slayer role, and the logi support roles before specializing. Currently you can test out the role of an assault with a basic medium, but there is no way to really test drive the role of a logi, and that's unfair considering the basic medium is the parent frame of both.
Hopefully that should answer some of your concerns.
That does indeed address most of my prior questions/concerns.
There remains the issue of viable support play in general but that is not within the scope of this proposal as it pertains more fully to other things such as the relative value of equipment on the battlefield.
I would be tempted however to tweak a couple of aspects to hone in on the goal.
To save on space I'm going to provide two links rather than quote
First link
Second link
The TL;DR being - Bring logi base stats up to assault levels as assaults gain slots to match logi, then give assaults bonuses that add more 'gank' to their options as a counterbalance to the logi equipment slots.
This keeps both Med specializations combat viable while making the assault always be the better slayer when comparing mirrored fits/specs.
Thanks for the response and looking forward to your further thoughts here 
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2258
|
Posted - 2014.06.06 01:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:I would be fine with logis having the same base stats if assaults have bonuses to damage, me and Aero Yassavi discussed it in his thread about differentiating assaults and commandos, and with my input her came up with this: Aero Yassavi wrote:Premise
Assault Class: 2% increased damage to light weapons and sidearms per level
Amarr Assault: 5% decreased heat build up to laser weaponry per level
Caldari Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - rail weaponry per level
Gallente Assault: 5% increased magazine size to hybrid - blaster weaponry per level
Minmatar Assault: 5% increased magazine size to projectile weaponry per level
*adjusted based on Kagehoshi's feedback
I'm no math wizard but that's looking pretty good to me as a foundation 
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2263
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Posted - 2014.06.06 02:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Cross Atu wrote:The TL;DR being - Bring logi base stats up to assault levels as assaults gain slots to match logi, then give assaults bonuses that add more 'gank' to their options as a counterbalance to the logi equipment slots. This keeps both Med specializations combat viable while making the assault always be the better slayer when comparing mirrored fits/specs. Thanks for the response and looking forward to your further thoughts here Do we have a contingency plan in case of "too much" Logi?
Well that would depend I suppose on what too much Logi means.
- If we're talking about too much Repair tool use, high alpha and/or AoE damage can fix that right up.
- If we're talking revives, well, first they'd have to work properly, but presuming we've gotten them fixed then adding a nominal WP award for killing a downed clone so they can't be revived seems a good option.
- If we're talking Uplinks... well, that doesn't take too much Logi as Logi aren't super common now and Uplinks are still quite prevalent.
- If we're talking scanners, that's a matter of proper eWar balance more than Logistics suits, if the scanner is balanced then things should be solid.
- If we're talking Proxy - They'd have to be more useful first
- If we're talking REs... well, our Scout friends can't have all the fun right
- If we're talking Hives, that could be a major spam problem especially considering the current state of hives. On this last count the best two things I have to offer are A) Fluxes
 and B) (since our nades keep getting nerfs) Add the ability to use Codebreakers of equal or higher level to hack deployed equipment and take control of it.
These counter measures may or may not cover everything depending on the concern, but they seem like a good place to start.
o7
Cross
EDIT: The TL;DR is basically my final point about hives with the note that non-deploy equipment needs to have it's own proper balance and that's less about the frame than about the equipment itself.
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
2304
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Posted - 2014.06.08 15:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Putting this here for those who skip the opening of the thread (you know who you are ).
Also, adding a couple minor edits in light of conversations on these last few pages.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:[TL;DR] The problems: All other frame sizes increment in module slots by 1 per tier while the mediums have an unnecessarily high slot gap between tiers which makes lower tier mediums especially bad.
The Amarr medium suits have less slots than the others of the same tier without any justification unlike the Amarr suits in the other frame sizes, The Amarr suits also are too high-slot oriented despite Amarr being armor tanking (the militia Amarr medium frame only has high slots).
Logis completely suck compared to assaults in STD tier because of lack of slots.
Logis are comparatively too strong at PRO tier compared to assaults because they have more slots at proto, giving them a higher HP ceiling.
Basic medium frames are basically just assaults without bonuses, and they lose all purpose once you unlock the assault specialization. Furthermore, basic mediums let players test the assault role, yet unfairly do not let players test the logi role.
Solutions: Make assaults and logis BOTH have 6 module slots at STD, 7 at ADV, and 8 at PRO tiers (most logis currently have at least 8 at PRO right now). My proposed numbers makes mod slot progression less steep between tiers, and solves the issue of logis being underpowered at STD tier.
Make assaults and logis BOTH have the same basic racial stats. This keeps support play viable while never allowing support frames to eclipse assault frames for 'slayer' roles.Improve the racial and role skill buffs on assault frames with a particular eye to increasing their 'gank' in general. And pinning it specifically to their racially relevant weapons as much as possible while maintaining racial balance in game. (details)
In addition to logis & assaults having the same number of module slots, make them also have same slot layout.
Make all medium frames (basic/asault/logi) have generally more racially consistent slot layouts. For example, Amarr medium suits more low slots.
Make Amarr mediums have the same number of module slots as all other other mediums of the same tier and type (basic/assault/logi).
Make Cal logi have 3 equipment slots at STD, & 4 at PRO in exchange for losing 9th mod slot at PRO tier. This is to not screw them over in reducing their modules at PRO to 8 instead of 9.
Make basic medium frames gain an equipment slot, but have 1 less module slot than their logi & assault counterpart. This will give the basic mediums a generalist purpose so players can try both slayer and support playstyles before deciding if they want to me assault or logi. This would make the assaults truly specialized by comparison instead of being a basic frame with a bonus.
These changes would make assault vs logistics balanced at all tiers, making the assault's higher base HP actually matter, give basic mediums a purpose of being a good way to try both an assault & logi playstyles (instead of just assault playstyles), & solves the issue with Amarr slot layouts at MLT & STD tier. The increased number of slots at lower tiers, and higher tier (for assaults) will make medium frames competative with scouts. Obviously PG/CPU should be tweakedAdded edit  Obviously Equipment stats and fittings costs should be tweakedBoth assaults & logis have the same mod slot counts: 6 STD, 7 ADV, 8 PRO. Most logis did not get a mod slot nerf in this plan
Cheers,
Cross
Cross Atu for CPM1- An emergent candidate
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