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Anti-infantry HAVs cannot ever be balanced in Ambush

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Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1364	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:35:00 - [1] - Quote Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1897	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:37:00 - [2] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Beren Hurin Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 2128	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:40:00 - [3] - Quote Commandos will be a nice help in 1.8.
deepfried salad gilliam Sanguine Knights 456	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:42:00 - [4] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) Proud Christian add p2p already!
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1225	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:47:00 - [5] - Quote I think the SP cost for tanks is too low, because anyone can get into a Soma with 0 SP and fit it with militia mods to slaughter enemy infantry, and still win and pull a large ISK payout even if they get destroyed once (which by that point the damage to the enemy team has already been done). I know I'm going to get hate for this, but SP should be a huge factor for tanks, especially since they are force multipliers. It should take max skills to get current tank and module attributes, and for someone with 0 SP, they should be easily soloable by one militia AV. I'm talking about skills for everything, from vehicle acceleration and top speed to vehicle shield and armor HP. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1366	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:47:00 - [6] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) I've tried that. I have a Prof IV IAFG alt that I play on a regular basis. A Soma can soak a full clip while pew-pewing my heavy suit down with ease.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 537	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:52:00 - [7] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. Spkr, I played a game recently where I saw you come in on my team with your tank. And i though "oh I recognize him from the forum, he must be a great tanker, we will stomp." When the match ended, my team lost, and I was pretty much the only player who went positive (like a 2.5, nothing special) and I noticed your name was gone from the list. So I assume you saw our team was losing, lost one tank and then ran scared. Point is, your opinion is useless because your basing balance off when you can stomp the other team, and not fun, even matches or losing efforts. As you dont play enough of those to have any experience, because you run at the first sign of trouble.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 11952	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:52:00 - [8] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. Classic Spkr post Tanks couldn't possibly be the problem, nope, no way. Spkr knows best, as one of the leading voices of reason and logic when it comes to HAV balance in DUST. No greater supporter of statistical, factual evidence can be found. There is no sense arguing against one so thoroughly immersed in his desire for a balanced DUST. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:52:00 - [9] - Quote Harpyja wrote: I think the SP cost for tanks is too low, because anyone can get into a Soma with 0 SP and fit it with militia mods to slaughter enemy infantry, and still win and pull a large ISK payout even if they get destroyed once (which by that point the damage to the enemy team has already been done). I know I'm going to get hate for this, but SP should be a huge factor for tanks, especially since they are force multipliers. It should take max skills to get current tank and module attributes, and for someone with 0 SP, they should be easily soloable by one militia AV. I'm talking about skills for everything, from vehicle acceleration and top speed to vehicle shield and armor HP. Because................................................... it's MLT, Harp. MLT stuff requires zero SP, as everybody knows. Since you are worth your weight in minerals as a tanker, it's easy for you to make short work of them. The SP we have in vehicles makes ours far above the level of MLT vehicles. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:53:00 - [10] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. Classic Spkr post Tanks couldn't possibly be the problem, nope, no way. Spkr knows best, as one of the leading voices of reason and logic when it comes to HAV balance in DUST. No greater supporter of statistical, factual evidence can be found. There is no sense arguing against one so thoroughly immersed in his desire for a balanced DUST. They're obviously not, because no matter how many times you had CCP nerf them, we still came out on top, and the rage threads about tanks still came. Can't you see that the problem isn't with the tank? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 607	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:56:00 - [11] - Quote deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) cover... lol, yeah, lots of cover to be had on most maps :) The mic bubble bug... I yield, CCP will be fixing it SOON. Current ETA 1 year since bug
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 18:59:00 - [12] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) I've tried that. I have a Prof IV IAFG alt that I play on a regular basis. A Soma can soak a full clip while pew-pewing my heavy suit down with ease. There should be no contest there- maxed out proto forge vs MLT tank should let me go toe to toe like an idiot and come out on top. LOL No, you're lying. Forge gets a damage bonus against armor. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Harpyja Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1226	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:21:00 - [13] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Harpyja wrote: I think the SP cost for tanks is too low, because anyone can get into a Soma with 0 SP and fit it with militia mods to slaughter enemy infantry, and still win and pull a large ISK payout even if they get destroyed once (which by that point the damage to the enemy team has already been done). I know I'm going to get hate for this, but SP should be a huge factor for tanks, especially since they are force multipliers. It should take max skills to get current tank and module attributes, and for someone with 0 SP, they should be easily soloable by one militia AV. I'm talking about skills for everything, from vehicle acceleration and top speed to vehicle shield and armor HP. Because................................................... it's MLT, Harp. MLT stuff requires zero SP, as everybody knows. Since you are worth your weight in minerals as a tanker, it's easy for you to make short work of them. The SP we have in vehicles makes ours far above the level of MLT vehicles. My 530k proto missile Gunnlogi will almost certainly lose to a 70k Sica; as such I avoid those things as if they are Satan on wheels and wait for their hardener to to offline, but I'm doomed if I come across one head first. Railgun Gunnlogis, on the other hand, force me to retreat and call in my own rail-Gunny, but this is all for another thread (railguns being OP). The problem I'm talking about is that tanks are too cheap SP-wise for their effectiveness. I know this from first hand experience. I have 0 SP into armor which means the only skills that would apply for me in a blaster Soma are module cooldown/active times. I have a Soma fit which is a militia heavy rep, militia armor hardener, militia fuel injector, militia scanner, and militia 80GJ blaster turret. I can go into Ambush, rack up enough kills to place me in the top three, and gain a nice ISK reward. Even if I get popped, I'm already high enough in the scoreboard and dealt enough damage for my team to win, and I still have a big net profit. I can't say that my prior experience to tanking has helped me much in this case. Somas are much less maneuverable than Gunnlogis which makes me feel at times like I'm just learning how to drive a tank. Second, I don't remember the last time I used a blaster turret so my accuracy is poor (in combination with using a DS3) and I overheated more often than I would've liked when trying to kill infantry. My conclusion is that tanks are too effective for 0 SP, or close to 0 SP, and like I've just stated, I doubt personal experience has helped since blaster armor tanks are so different from missile shield tanks. "By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 11952	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:28:00 - [14] - Quote I don't know why tankers can't understand that when it takes more than one AV person to kill you, in a game mode that offers very little cover, when the enemy switches to AV, your infantry in effect multiplies. Basically, whoever deploys the most tanks in Ambush first can only loose through extremely bad skill on their part because their force is exponentially larger than the enemies, despite having the same amount of players on both sides. Solution? Offer an infantry only Ambush option. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:29:00 - [15] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I don't know why tankers can't understand that when it takes more than one AV person to kill you, in a game mode that offers very little cover, when the enemy switches to AV, your infantry in effect multiplies. Basically, whoever deploys the most tanks in Ambush first can only loose through extremely bad skill on their part because their force is exponentially larger than the enemies, despite having the same amount of players on both sides. Solution? Offer an infantry only Ambush option. I have no problem making vehicles run away, whether I'm in a tank or using a forge gun. Why do you all have such a problem making tanks go away? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1367	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:30:00 - [16] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) I've tried that. I have a Prof IV IAFG alt that I play on a regular basis. A Soma can soak a full clip while pew-pewing my heavy suit down with ease. There should be no contest there- maxed out proto forge vs MLT tank should let me go toe to toe like an idiot and come out on top. LOL No, you're lying. Forge gets a damage bonus against armor. You want some f--king math? Fine. Math time. IAFG damage: 1500 damage. Base charge time 3s, 3 * .75 = 2.25 seconds per shot. The first shot receives the 10% reduction against shields, for 1350 damage. The next 3 receive the 10% bonus for 1650 * 3. In 4 shots, that gives us 6300 total over 9 seconds. If it's a hardener fit with hardener up: Soma: 1200 shields, 4000 armor, 100hp/s heavy repper. Over 9 seconds, 900 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 6100 EHP, with 4900 of it being armor. 4900 * 1.4 + 1200 = 8060 EHP. Yes, it can tank a full clip. For the sake of argument, let's use a non-hardener fit. If it's double repper: Soma: 1200 shields, 4000 armor, 200hp/s heavy reppers Over 9 seconds, 1800 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 7000 EHP. Yes, it can soak a full clip. If it's repper/plate: Soma: 1200 shields, ~5000 armor, 100hp/s heavy repper. Over 9 seconds, 900 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 7100 EHP. Yes, it can soak a full clip. Now let's assume the blaster tank isn't a complete idiot and is shooting the forge gunner. Assuming they have crap for aim, let's ballpark their DPS at 500. That's less than 4 seconds, or less than 2 FG shots, for a MLT tank to gun down a brick-tanked prototype heavy. Do you honestly not see the numerical imbalance here, between a militia tank and a prototype forge gunner? Change this situation to a Maddy running MLT modules (that's a SP investment of ~300k, or less than a week of SP, and less than a fresh academy character starts with) and the imbalance gets only bigger.
Cody Sietz Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising 2504	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:30:00 - [17] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. Why can't you be like Snugglez? He is cool and flys like if Jesus flew dropships. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:41:00 - [18] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: deepfried salad gilliam wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. so their anty infantry(vehicle) role beat you (the infantry) who most likely wasn't av. seems balanced. now if you said i had my av suit of equal or greater tier and still lost then you might almost have a valid point depending on the scenario(who saw who first, did he out skill you, was he in close proximty to cover ,etc) I've tried that. I have a Prof IV IAFG alt that I play on a regular basis. A Soma can soak a full clip while pew-pewing my heavy suit down with ease. There should be no contest there- maxed out proto forge vs MLT tank should let me go toe to toe like an idiot and come out on top. LOL No, you're lying. Forge gets a damage bonus against armor. You want some f--king math? Fine. Math time. IAFG damage: 1500 damage. Base charge time 3s, 3 * .75 = 2.25 seconds per shot. The first shot receives the 10% reduction against shields, for 1350 damage. The next 3 receive the 10% bonus for 1650 * 3. In 4 shots, that gives us 6300 total over 9 seconds. If it's a hardener fit with hardener up: Soma: 1200 shields, 4000 armor, 100hp/s heavy repper. Over 9 seconds, 900 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 6100 EHP, with 4900 of it being armor. 4900 * 1.4 + 1200 = 8060 EHP. Yes, it can tank a full clip. For the sake of argument, let's use a non-hardener fit. If it's double repper: Soma: 1200 shields, 4000 armor, 200hp/s heavy reppers Over 9 seconds, 1800 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 7000 EHP. Yes, it can soak a full clip. If it's repper/plate: Soma: 1200 shields, ~5000 armor, 100hp/s heavy repper. Over 9 seconds, 900 EHP gained from the repper, for a total of 7100 EHP. Yes, it can soak a full clip. Now let's assume the blaster tank isn't a complete idiot and is shooting the forge gunner. Assuming they have crap for aim, let's ballpark their DPS at 500. That's less than 4 seconds, or less than 2 FG shots, for a MLT tank to gun down a brick-tanked prototype heavy. Do you honestly not see the numerical imbalance here, between a militia tank and a prototype forge gunner? Change this situation to a Maddy running MLT modules (that's a SP investment of ~300k, or less than a week of SP, and less than a fresh academy character starts with) and the imbalance gets only bigger. So you don't use damage mods when using a forge gun? And you're basically complaining that you can't solo a tank with a forge gun. But, I can. So, where does the problem lie? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1367	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:48:00 - [19] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: So you don't use damage mods when using a forge gun? And you're basically complaining that you can't solo a tank with a forge gun. But, I can. So, where does the problem lie? It doesn't matter what Mr. Fancy God can do. You've spent plenty of time talking about how all the scrub newbie tankers are bad. The average scrub with AV, especially when it's a proto forge gun, should be able to solo the average scrub in a MLT tank. As a super pro tanker, you shouldn't be worried about this. I didn't include damage mods because the balance needs to also involve SP investment and we're already talking about PRO vs MLT. It shouldn't matter what fit I'm using, damage mod shouldn't be necessary, there should be no contest there.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:52:00 - [20] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: So you don't use damage mods when using a forge gun? And you're basically complaining that you can't solo a tank with a forge gun. But, I can. So, where does the problem lie? It doesn't matter what Mr. Fancy God can do. You've spent plenty of time talking about how all the scrub newbie tankers are bad. The average scrub with AV, especially when it's a proto forge gun, should be able to solo the average scrub in a MLT tank. That's called balance. As a super pro tanker, you shouldn't be worried about this. I didn't include damage mods because the balance needs to also involve SP investment and we're already talking about PRO vs MLT. It shouldn't matter what fit I'm using, damage mod shouldn't be necessary, there should be no contest there. But it's basically you saying you're inept with a forge gun, that you can't destroy a MLT tank with a PRO forge. You're just bad. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim

Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 640	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:52:00 - [21] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. From a SP invested tanker: Agreed, I've never thought that tanks really had a place in ambush to begin with. Especially now that it requires more than one AV to take one out. Maybe on the bigger maps allow them, but not on the small ones. Hoping they will be fixing blasters, and milta tank spam fore long. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1900	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:53:00 - [22] - Quote And not only that, CCP already did their AV / vehicle balance pass, which infantry basically forced them to do. Why are you not happy with the work you forced CCP to do? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 11954	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:53:00 - [23] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I don't know why tankers can't understand that when it takes more than one AV person to kill you, in a game mode that offers very little cover, when the enemy switches to AV, your infantry in effect multiplies. Basically, whoever deploys the most tanks in Ambush first can only loose through extremely bad skill on their part because their force is exponentially larger than the enemies, despite having the same amount of players on both sides. Solution? Offer an infantry only Ambush option. I have no problem making vehicles run away, whether I'm in a tank or using a forge gun. Why do you all have such a problem making tanks go away? Why do you have such a problem understanding that the more proto AV you pull out to counter free MLT tanks, the less chance your team has of winning because you aren't actually contributing to the goal of the game mode: killing dudes? So you spend all game killing a couple free tanks. Congrats, you have done NOTHING to help your team in Ambush. I say proto AV because you need that to counter all but the dumbest of MLT tankers unless you have a ton of allies all shooting it, and we've already discussed that this is Ambush, not that I expect you to understand that. Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1367	Posted - 2014.03.04 19:59:00 - [24] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: So you don't use damage mods when using a forge gun? And you're basically complaining that you can't solo a tank with a forge gun. But, I can. So, where does the problem lie? It doesn't matter what Mr. Fancy God can do. You've spent plenty of time talking about how all the scrub newbie tankers are bad. The average scrub with AV, especially when it's a proto forge gun, should be able to solo the average scrub in a MLT tank. That's called balance. As a super pro tanker, you shouldn't be worried about this. I didn't include damage mods because the balance needs to also involve SP investment and we're already talking about PRO vs MLT. It shouldn't matter what fit I'm using, damage mod shouldn't be necessary, there should be no contest there. But it's basically you saying you're inept with a forge gun, that you can't destroy a MLT tank with a PRO forge. You're just bad. Did you even read what I said? I never claimed to be good, but you can't really be telling me that every MLT tanker out there is so incredibly good that they're surviving proto AV through raw skill. Bad AVers should beat bad tanks with equal gear. Bad AVers with proto gear should absolutely crush bad tankers with MLT gear. That's the point of specialized AV weaponry and the tier system. Good tanks should beat bad AV, which as you so often tell us, they always have. Spkr4theDead wrote: And not only that, CCP already did their AV / vehicle balance pass, which infantry basically forced them to do. Why are you not happy with the work you forced CCP to do? Infantry forced the balance pass? Are you f--king kidding me? Tankers complained, and rightly, that they were getting instapopped by super-powerful swarms from 200m away. CCP tried to fix it with 1.7 and they failed to do it right, which should be no surprise given their track record.
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 640	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:01:00 - [25] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. MAN, I've seen a lot of "CRAP" from you. Have you ever tried to AV? Still blaming it on the AV when there are GLARING problems with tank and AV interaction. I've been doing so with swarms and forge guns. Killed a few tanks on my own, MLT, and one gunnlogi with the help of another tank. Being that I understand tanks above and beyond most AV, I can safely say there are problems with the AV roles in relation to tanks. The biggest problem with going the AV route, since tankers REQUIRE it take teamwork to kill them, are the rewards. The only way to gain WP is by actually KILLING the tank. Many times I was very discouraged from even attempting to mess with a tanks because I KNOW I won't be killing him. Why bother? Go AV before you talk **** about how stupid they are, it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance 640	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:02:00 - [26] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: And not only that, CCP already did their AV / vehicle balance pass, which infantry basically forced them to do. Why are you not happy with the work you forced CCP to do? By your logic, TANKS are forcing CCP to do another vehicle/AV balance at this very moment. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 1709	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:15:00 - [27] - Quote This entire argument of vehicles in ambush, is both valid an without sense. Ambush is not funny because people use vehicles, that is true, but is also true that some people have zero skill points on infantry and we have basically 2 game modes (dom is a camping skirmish), should they always play skirmish or domination? No,not for the moment, we need more players and more game modes, on the other hand we can't have more players if new players (and old too) get dinamically stomped by 4 tanks in every ambush. It's a vicious cicle. Probably they should divide again ambush and ambush OMS. OMS with vehicles and more orbital drops, more turret scattered on the map and more clones (at least 100). Normal ambush without vehicles and with 80 clones instead of 50. 1.8 it's so secret that nobody know what will be in it, even after patch notes...
Grimmiers 0uter.Heaven 434	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:21:00 - [28] - Quote buff av fix and fix spawns SoundCloud Recruiter Link Pronounced Grim-e-urs
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1901	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:29:00 - [29] - Quote Cody Sietz wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Awry Barux wrote: Tanks as they stand right now (anti-infantry, operable by a single merc) can never, ever be balanced in a pure TDM game mode. They fill the exact same role as an assault suit: roll around the map, gunning people down one at a time with an oversized AR. In a game mode with objectives inaccessible to tanks, their near-invincibility and 900 DPS AR turret can maybe be considered to be balanced and exist in a real separate role. But when the only goal is to kill X clones, the current style of tanks is always going to either be massively OP or paper-thin UP. As it stands right now, they're just a big suit I put on over my little suit with 10x the HP, 2x the damage, and 90% resist to most weapons on the field. As an example: I just got out of an ambush where I spent a solid minute or two playing cat and mouse against a Soma, running in circles around pillars, etc. The fact that he was in a tank made it impossible for me to kill him. He simply chased me around and around searching for the kill, just like an assault player, because that's all tanks are good for. Change their role or get them the hell out of ambush. Another one complaining about ambush. Why do you bother? Just go to Call of Duty already. They tried balancing tanks around ambush, and we still came out on top. The problem isn't with us, or the tank. It's with you, and your lack of a care to do anything against them. Why can't you be like Snugglez? He is cool and flys like if Jesus flew dropships. Dropships are harder to fly than BF3 helicopters. I never really bothered with them. I tank. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 1901	Posted - 2014.03.04 20:30:00 - [30] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: And not only that, CCP already did their AV / vehicle balance pass, which infantry basically forced them to do. Why are you not happy with the work you forced CCP to do? By your logic, TANKS are forcing CCP to do another vehicle/AV balance at this very moment. No, infantry forced CCP to rework everything. They're working on 1.8, which deals with infantry, and various bugs. They're not going to do another AV / vehicle pass for a long time. Why aren't you happy with the results that you forced CCP to deliver? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim



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