DUST Search - EHP is king

Ghosts Chance wrote:

Leadfoot10 wrote:

I think your predictions sound pretty good, but you really never know for sure how it will play out.

currently EHP is king, the more HP you can stack the better, hence why you will see many heavys carting around light weapons, simply because the HP is better.

i see nothing that will change that, and with the gallante heavys stats and skills theres nothing else int he game that can compaire to its defencive and therefore offencive capabilities.

unlike the cal heavy the gal one has no natureal predators, theres no real counter to it because of the splash,projectile, and rail resistance every weapon that would be ideal to counter its massive block of HP suffers from extreme damage reduction. and unlike the cal wich normally would of been able to achieve similar results it cant be naded out of position effectivly either due to the splash reduction because locus just dont do enough damage to counter it unlike fluxes wich will still be able to take out the cals entire shield buffer.

the Gal heavy has no natural predator, and if you pair it with a minmatar logi with a maxed out rep tool your simply not going to be able to kill it off effectivly, the damn thing will survive remotes with ease as well.

HP is king, and the gal heavy reguardless of what weapon you stick on it is going to break the game.

the only thing i see even standing a chance would be a minmatar commando with MD and combat rifle to combat the damage reductions with damage bonuses but even then the inferior HP will probably mean that on equal footing the minni still loses out.

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Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 611	Posted - 2014.03.01 16:36:00 - [61] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: You solved for (b), which you already provided, and due to the associative law the statement is false because a=b, they cancel each other out leaving 200 = 600, which is not true. What you solved for was how much of a damage penalty would be needed for a 200hp shot to kill a suit with 600hp. :/ Yeah, I had quite a bit of trouble trying to shoehorn the damage profile into your EHP equation, because they're not the same thing. But that's just it, you're trying to use a "x needed to kill y" equation to try and find a "x does z" answer. I'm starting to regret trying to shoehorn, however, because now it's going to distract from the point that EHP w/ resist =/= damage w/ bonus. Now is the winter of our non-content. Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1168	Posted - 2014.03.01 16:42:00 - [62] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: You solved for (b), which you already provided, and due to the associative law the statement is false because a=b, they cancel each other out leaving 200 = 600, which is not true. What you solved for was how much of a damage penalty would be needed for a 200hp shot to kill a suit with 600hp. :/ Yeah, I had quite a bit of trouble trying to shoehorn the damage profile into your EHP equation, because they're not the same thing. But that's just it, you're trying to use a "x needed to kill y" equation to try and find a "x does z" answer. I'm starting to regret trying to shoehorn, however, because now it's going to distract from the point that EHP w/ resist =/= damage w/ bonus. you tried thats what counts. now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod) meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build.... i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades...
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 611	Posted - 2014.03.01 16:46:00 - [63] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod) meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build.... i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades... Don't forget this post, Ghosts: CCP Logibro wrote: Well, that's not the only thing the Mass Driver is getting in 1.8 Increased base direct/splash damage from 242/116 to 300/145 So, if the base MD is getting buffed to 300 direct damage, what's the new breach value going to be? Now is the winter of our non-content. Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1168	Posted - 2014.03.01 16:49:00 - [64] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod) meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build.... i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades... Don't forget this post, Ghosts: CCP Logibro wrote: Well, that's not the only thing the Mass Driver is getting in 1.8 Increased base direct/splash damage from 242/116 to 300/145 So, if the base MD is getting buffed to 300 direct damage, what's the new breach value going to be? could be nothing.... (sadface) they are known for changing some values and not others, i think they left one of the original assault md stats in place when they nerfed em :P
Asha Starwind VEXALATION CORPORATION Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage 410	Posted - 2014.03.01 16:58:00 - [65] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Asha Starwind wrote: You solved for (b), which you already provided, and due to the associative law the statement is false because a=b, they cancel each other out leaving 200 = 600, which is not true. What you solved for was how much of a damage penalty would be needed for a 200hp shot to kill a suit with 600hp. :/ Yeah, I had quite a bit of trouble trying to shoehorn the damage profile into your EHP equation, because they're not the same thing. But that's just it, you're trying to use a "x needed to kill y" equation to try and find a "x does z" answer. I'm starting to regret trying to shoehorn, however, because now it's going to distract from the point that EHP w/ resist =/= damage w/ bonus. Just think about if you know how much you're dishing out 200pts of damage(x) that deals 10% bonus damage(a) to a specific defense, random person(y) walking around gets 15% resist(b) to x damage type. How much damage does y receive? We know a,b,x, so we're solving for y. The answer should be 191.3 32db Mad Bomber.
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 611	Posted - 2014.03.01 17:22:00 - [66] - Quote Asha Starwind wrote: Just think about if you know how much you're dishing out 200pts of damage(x) that deals 10% bonus damage(a) to a specific defense, random person(y) walking around gets 15% resist(b) to x damage type. How much damage does y receive? We know a,b,x, so we're solving for y. The answer should be 191.3 Except there's a big difference between dividing by 1.15 (the resistance bonus to the target's health) and multipying by 0.85 (the resistance penalty) to the damage done. One gets you 191.3, the other gets you 187. You're still using the resistance as a bonus to the target (a wonky ehp calculation) instead of using it as a penalty to the damage (damage done calculation). Having a 15% resistance to something doesn't give you 15% more hp against it. Having a 50% resistance lowers the incoming damage by 50%, leaving it with 50% damage left, or half (1/2). This means your EHP against it is twice as much (2/1), because it takes them two shots to do the damage of one shot against 0% resistance. This works though because 50% is a easy, even number. Having a 15% resistance lowers the incoming damage by 15%, leaving it with 85% damage left, or 85/100 (simplified: 17/20). This means your EHP against it is 20/17, or actually 17.6% greater. Three 200 point shots to kill 600hp with no resists. 600/(200 x 1.0) Six 200 point shots to kill 600ehp with 50% resists. 600/(200 x 0.5) 3.529 200 point shots to kill 600ehp with 15% resists. 600/(200 x .85) Those 3.529 200 damage shots equal out to 705.88 damage done. 705.88/600 = 1.176 Now is the winter of our non-content. Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
Vordred Knight Endless Hatred Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 16	Posted - 2014.03.01 17:33:00 - [67] - Quote Gallente shall rule because FREEDOM!!!! ashes to ashes dust to dust we are nothing but dust and to dust you shall return - Father Alexander Anderson
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 1780	Posted - 2014.03.03 13:32:00 - [68] - Quote ALT2 acc wrote: Arx Ardashir wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: If you fit a Cal Heavy as a pure shield tank it really hurts. Even if fluxed, it starts to to recharge the shield at 100+ HP/sec after 0.78 sec. Eventually could be killed by other heavies; it's hard to say if the Scrambler rifle actually do enough damage to negate the shield recharge before it overheats. Cal Heavy could be a beast. Dropsuits aren't vehicles, they don't have a "damage threshold" for shield recharge under fire. You could flux them and then hit them for 1 damage every half a second and the shields won't recharge. Which needs to be fixed No way should an ar 100m away stop my recharge... Of course, yes, but a Heavy is not supposed to stay in open spaces. I think it's going to be a good shoot and hide point defense. >Bastard I : "Cce me ne... futt! XD"
ALT2 acc 203	Posted - 2014.03.03 13:38:00 - [69] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: ALT2 acc wrote: Arx Ardashir wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: If you fit a Cal Heavy as a pure shield tank it really hurts. Even if fluxed, it starts to to recharge the shield at 100+ HP/sec after 0.78 sec. Eventually could be killed by other heavies; it's hard to say if the Scrambler rifle actually do enough damage to negate the shield recharge before it overheats. Cal Heavy could be a beast. Dropsuits aren't vehicles, they don't have a "damage threshold" for shield recharge under fire. You could flux them and then hit them for 1 damage every half a second and the shields won't recharge. Which needs to be fixed No way should an ar 100m away stop my recharge... Of course, yes, but a Heavy is not supposed to stay in open spaces. I think it's going to be a good shoot and hide point defense. Im talking all caldari auits, and no one said it was in the open... Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 1843	Posted - 2014.03.03 13:52:00 - [70] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: heavys with light weapons.... heavys with light weapons EVERYWHERE.... assault suits cannot compete, HP>Speed and damage This is why I really, really want Sentinel suits limited to Heavy Weapons only. The problem? CCP already said they won't be doing that. I used to own the FAT GAT until this --> [ASCII Art removed - *draconian forum overlord* CCP Logibro]

Turtle Hermit Roshi D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 205	Posted - 2014.03.03 13:56:00 - [71] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: gallante heavys are going to scare the **** out of people and will be FOTM since they are going to be running around with over 1000 armor and damage resistance against anything thats actually good at countering that (unlike the caldari version) 1.8 FOTM gallante heavy flux nades HMGs Winmatar logi duh why do you thingi bilt my character like this a year ago ive been anticipating OP heavies since this tme last year BRING FORTH THE QQ FOR I AM FULLY SPECED INTO THE FOTM AND SHALL VANQUISH ALL POSERS Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for, welcome to New Eden -ill b there SoonGäó KAMEHAMEHA TANK KILLA
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2703	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:03:00 - [72] - Quote EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
ALT2 acc 203	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:06:00 - [73] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Grabs a cloaked shotgun whistles Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1201	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:10:00 - [74] - Quote ALT2 acc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Grabs a cloaked shotgun whistles good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude. your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo.
ALT2 acc 203	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:11:00 - [75] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: ALT2 acc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Grabs a cloaked shotgun whistles good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude. your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo. Currently for a mlt shotgun, its 3 shots Hater attractor proficiency 5, hater attractor optimization 5.
Sana Rayya WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 906	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:12:00 - [76] - Quote Proto Min Scout + Nova Knife Proficiency 5 + 3x Complex Sidearm Damage Mods = 1809 HP damage from one double-bladed charge swipe. Combine with cloak for a paper-thin heavy slayer :D
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1201	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:14:00 - [77] - Quote ALT2 acc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: ALT2 acc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Grabs a cloaked shotgun whistles good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude. your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo. Currently for a mlt shotgun, its 3 shots im just sayin, if im making a PC team and im including scouts, their job will be uplink hunting, flank harassment and logi killing. prioritise logis man, scouts are the best way to remove the logis quickly and effectivly. its like MMO-style combat, the rogues job is to tie up and or instagank the healers so that the rest of the team can do their jobs.
Lorhak Gannarsein Science For Death 1869	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:17:00 - [78] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Amarr heavy will actually be better overall. Superior projectile resistance, good armor buffer and twin damage mods means they will win heavy vs heavy engagements. The token 10% resistance to hybrids will still give them the edge against lighter suits. Good enough to kill the smaller stuff by default, has better damage resistance and damage application to deal with other heavies. There is only one logical choice for serious brawling and it's not the Gallente suit I'm afraid. Yeah this, basically. A (marginally) lower armour buffer, 5% higher resistance to projectiles and an extra high slot for damage mods means I'm thinking the pub heavy will be Cal for soloing, Gal for squad play and Amarr will be the suit for serious heavy v heavy combat. Very much dependent on the final statistics for damage mods, though. If they're changed I think the balance will turn towards the Gal heavy for serious brawling. Forge on for great justice! Defend the meek! Destroy the weak! Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 2703	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:40:00 - [79] - Quote If Gallente Heavy becomes the FOTM and Amarr Heavy becomes known as the heroic Anti-Heavy, then I would be happy with that. Gallente Heavy is the one Sentinel I donGÇÖt plan to skill into, and I am going to 5 in Amarr Heavy first. And, yes, I chose Amarr specifically because it would be powerful against other HMG Heavies. That and the fact it has the best Stamina. * By "I" of course I mean my Heavy character. Fox does not do heavy.... yet. Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3285	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:44:00 - [80] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: I think your predictions sound pretty good, but you really never know for sure how it will play out. currently EHP is king, the more HP you can stack the better, hence why you will see many heavys carting around light weapons, simply because the HP is better. i see nothing that will change that, and with the gallante heavys stats and skills theres nothing else int he game that can compaire to its defencive and therefore offencive capabilities. unlike the cal heavy the gal one has no natureal predators, theres no real counter to it because of the splash,projectile, and rail resistance every weapon that would be ideal to counter its massive block of HP suffers from extreme damage reduction. and unlike the cal wich normally would of been able to achieve similar results it cant be naded out of position effectivly either due to the splash reduction because locus just dont do enough damage to counter it unlike fluxes wich will still be able to take out the cals entire shield buffer. the Gal heavy has no natural predator, and if you pair it with a minmatar logi with a maxed out rep tool your simply not going to be able to kill it off effectivly, the damn thing will survive remotes with ease as well. HP is king, and the gal heavy reguardless of what weapon you stick on it is going to break the game. the only thing i see even standing a chance would be a minmatar commando with MD and combat rifle to combat the damage reductions with damage bonuses but even then the inferior HP will probably mean that on equal footing the minni still loses out. There is AN answer to Gal Heavies, but it's gonna suck to put into action. It has splash resistance, but this is not EXPLOSIVE resistance. This means that DIRECT DAMAGE explosives will still deal 125% damage. Answer? Breach MD. A proto Breach MD will deal 535 damage to armor a shot. Combine with flux, and you can two shot a Gal Heavy. Get good at direct shots people. You're gonna need it. Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. I've got 3k likes, I'll double post if I want to dammit!

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3287	Posted - 2014.03.03 14:47:00 - [81] - Quote Ghosts Chance wrote: ALT2 acc wrote: Ghosts Chance wrote: ALT2 acc wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: EHP is King in 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7. I am not so sure about 1.8. Grabs a cloaked shotgun whistles good luck getting 6 shots off before you get mowed down dude. your ideal target is the support logis, get in, wait, time it right, kill the logi, and gtfo. Currently for a mlt shotgun, its 3 shots im just sayin, if im making a PC team and im including scouts, their job will be uplink hunting, flank harassment and logi killing. prioritise logis man, scouts are the best way to remove the logis quickly and effectivly. its like MMO-style combat, the rogues job is to tie up and or instagank the healers so that the rest of the team can do their jobs. Yep. If you run into a full squad with its back turned, your goal should ALWAYS be the logi's first. You can remove ammo, rep support, and uplink support in one move. Heavies will lose a lot of staying power without a logi, and this is the best way to weaken a team in the long run. I support MMO style play Nothing says "F**K YOU!" like a direct Flaylock to the face. I've got 3k likes, I'll double post if I want to dammit!
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 628	Posted - 2014.03.03 17:27:00 - [82] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: There is AN answer to Gal Heavies, but it's gonna suck to put into action. It has splash resistance, but this is not EXPLOSIVE resistance. This means that DIRECT DAMAGE explosives will still deal 125% damage. Answer? Breach MD. A proto Breach MD will deal 535 damage to armor a shot. Combine with flux, and you can two shot a Gal Heavy. Get good at direct shots people. You're gonna need it. Ghosts Chance and I came to that conclusion at the end of page 3. Now is the winter of our non-content. Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 1426	Posted - 2014.03.03 17:32:00 - [83] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: I think your predictions sound pretty good, but you really never know for sure how it will play out. i do Who wants some?
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 11904	Posted - 2014.03.03 17:35:00 - [84] - Quote We need remote shield reppers and shield repping nano hives. Come on CCP, parity Videos / Fiction Closed Beta Vet; Incubus Pilot
Dauth Jenkins Ultramarine Corp 129	Posted - 2014.03.03 17:39:00 - [85] - Quote Looks like it's time to get gud with the plasma cannon... Sees prototompers... Sees blueberries start to snipe... Pulls out commando suit with laser rifle and swarm launcher...
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1347	Posted - 2014.03.03 17:40:00 - [86] - Quote Dauth Jenkins wrote: Looks like it's time to get gud with the plasma cannon... PLC already doesn't OHK tanked heavies with a direct hit.
Roy Ventus Axis of Chaos 1206	Posted - 2014.03.03 18:10:00 - [87] - Quote I don't agree with some of the statements about the heavies. Gallente Sentinels will be weak against explosives. MDs come back and they'll blow their armor and HP to Hell. The Scrambler will also still be an issue since it's a high alpha damage weapon with nice precision. Amarr Sentinels will also be weak against explosives, surprisingly. Minmatar Commandos will be the source of pain from both the Amarr and their Gallente counterparts. The AR will still be as effective as it is today though, since the Amarr aren't really focused on regen but just stacking. The AR will also be effective because their shields are resistant to rail technology, not blasters. While the Caldari won't be weak to the Laser Rifle or blasters, it will keep it's weakness to Flux grenades. Timed properly, a flux grenade can lead to an easier kill due to the resistance being based on it's shields, not armor and the fact that the shields don't have a resistance to Flux grenades. The Minmatar will actually be weak to explosives as well. A combination of Rail Rifles and Flaylocks will do them in quick. "There once was a time when there wasn't a Roy Ventus and it wasn't much of a time at all." Roy Ventus
Ghosts Chance Inf4m0us 1206	Posted - 2014.03.03 18:17:00 - [88] - Quote Roy Ventus wrote: I don't agree with some of the statements about the heavies. Gallente Sentinels will be weak against explosives. MDs come back and they'll blow their armor and HP to Hell. The Scrambler will also still be an issue since it's a high alpha damage weapon with nice precision. Amarr Sentinels will also be weak against explosives, surprisingly. Minmatar Commandos will be the source of pain from both the Amarr and their Gallente counterparts. The AR will still be as effective as it is today though, since the Amarr aren't really focused on regen but just stacking. The AR will also be effective because their shields are resistant to rail technology, not blasters. While the Caldari won't be weak to the Laser Rifle or blasters, it will keep it's weakness to Flux grenades. Timed properly, a flux grenade can lead to an easier kill due to the resistance being based on it's shields, not armor and the fact that the shields don't have a resistance to Flux grenades. The Minmatar will actually be weak to explosives as well. A combination of Rail Rifles and Flaylocks will do them in quick. they are only weak in reguards to direct hits, wich only the skilled can pull off reliably
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1589	Posted - 2014.03.08 22:03:00 - [89] - Quote You can get 26 hp/sec on gal heavy. That is 4 less than cal assaults shield reg. It will be great. Drop it like its hat.
Supernus Gigas Star Giants 409	Posted - 2014.03.08 22:28:00 - [90] - Quote The Gallente Sentinel will also be able to speed tank better than the Minmatar Sentinel will. What the hell CCP? Don't believe me? Then look at this thread. Look at it. Looooook. *FIRE UP THE HEAVY MEAT GRINDER! WE'RE HAVIN' CLONE BURGERS TONIGHT, BOYS!*



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