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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 12:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Auris Lionesse wrote:Gal heavy needs six eyes or I'm probably not going to use it.
Well, the Gal Scout has 1 eye, and the med has 4. So the Heavy should either have 7 (+3) or 16 (+400%).
16 eyed Gal heavy, the double spider.
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I'd also like to reming people that in New Eden, defense wins in the eternal struggle between weapons makers and armorers. Resistances are applied upon recieving damage, so a weapon that gets +10% against armor and an armor that gets +10% to that weapon does not equal out to a 0% buff/debuff.
Example:
Rail (+10% against armor) weapon does 100 damage. Target has a 10% armor resistance to rail weapons. For this scenario, we'll say the target has 0 shields.
Damage done by weapon: 100 x 1.1 = 110.
Damage done when it hits the target: 110 x 0.9 = 99.
The weapon ends up doing only 99% of its original damage, meaning that the target still gets a 1% resistance, even though it's resistance percentage equaled the bonus against it.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 13:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
MINA Longstrike wrote:That's why I'm really hoping that 1sec depleted shield recharge startup isn't a typo for the cal heavy.
SourceCCP Logibro wrote:So I checked with CCP Remnant, and the Caldari Sentinel Shield Depleted Recharge Delay is supposed to be 1. It is not a typo.
The more you know!
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 13:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:If you fit a Cal Heavy as a pure shield tank it really hurts. Even if fluxed, it starts to to recharge the shield at 100+ HP/sec after 0.78 sec. Eventually could be killed by other heavies; it's hard to say if the Scrambler rifle actually do enough damage to negate the shield recharge before it overheats. Cal Heavy could be a beast.
Dropsuits aren't vehicles, they don't have a "damage threshold" for shield recharge under fire. You could flux them and then hit them for 1 damage every half a second and the shields won't recharge.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 13:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:There's a slight rounding error in your post it's .909090 repeating not .9 110 x (1/1.1) = 100%
The .9 was from 90%, aka a -10% damage reduction. I have never seen anyone do 1 divided by 110% to apply a 10% damage reduction.
I remain confident in my original post.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:
The damage bonus is applied to the incoming damage and the resist to the shield/armor.
x*a = y*b
y = x*a/b or y = x*a*1/b
What are your variables? Also, I don't know why you have the two sides equal.
Damage applied (X) = [Weapon damage(d) x weapon bonus (b)] x Resist(r)
or
X = (db)r
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 14:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:Arx Ardashir wrote:Asha Starwind wrote:
The damage bonus is applied to the incoming damage and the resist to the shield/armor.
x*a = y*b
y = x*a/b or y = x*a*1/b
What are your variables? Also, I don't know why you have the two sides equal. Damage applied (X) = [Weapon damage(d) x weapon bonus (b)] x Resist(r) or X = (db)r guys its irrelevent, ive posted the explanation on how damage reduction is calculated, ive tested it extensivly int he past back when there was a debate how resistance worked on tanks and know 100% first hand how it works in dust. i also simplified out so that an idiot could understand it and did so without having to post mathmatical formulas, your all putting in alot of effort when its obvious that 10% of 110 is in fact 11, and so 100 damage turns into 99 after a 10% bonus and a 10% reduction are applyed.
Which is what I said in my original reminder, yes. I was just trying to help Asha understand. The original post was about EHP, though, so talk of resistances isn't irrelevant.
I am curious as to how much (%) damage from each type is going to be applied to a fully skilled Gal Sentinel. Unfortuantely, the web filter at my work blocks CCP's images on the upcoming changes, so I can't do it myself at the moment.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:45:00 -
[7] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:Rule of Conservation. In = Out
weapon damage (x) * weapon bonus (a) = health value (y) * resist (b)
rearrange to for
weapon damage needed to kill ______:
x = y*b/a
or for how much damage from ______ weapon can given hp sustain:
y = x*a/b
Well there's your problem, Asha. You're not looking for the damage done, but the damage needed. There's a difference.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
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Posted - 2014.03.01 14:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:15% reduction against rail weaponry (armor only)
10% reduction against projectile (armor only)
25% redection against splash (armor and shields)
So the Gallente Sentinel will take:
80% damage from laser weapons
90% damage from explosive splash damage (would a direct hit from an MD or Flaylock deal the full 120%?)
93.5% damage from Rail weaponry
99% damage from Projectile weaponry.
Scary indeed. Nothing will do full damage against it's main tank, unless direct hits from explosive weapons are excluded from the splash reduction (which you think they would). So maybe the best counter to a Gal Sentinel will be a marksman with an MD.
Edit: Ghosts, I would add this resistance profile to your OP to better help your point.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
609
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 14:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:this my friend, makes you my hero for the day, i hadnt even though of that yet.
this makes a case for MD/Flaylock becuase the gal is going to be REALLY slow... and so flaylocks and breach massdrivers are going to be able to hit their mark quite easily in this case and end up doing insane damage.
Does this make up for the semi-hijack? 
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
610
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Posted - 2014.03.01 15:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:The target will only ever see the damage equivalent to their hp. For example, you instantaneously deal 900pts of pure damage to a target with 600 total ehp, they will only see 600damage, the point at which their health drops to 0. The remaining 300pts goes into a corpse. Health will always equal damage taken.
The problem with your method is when we calculate damage done that is less than the total HP of the target. Take 200 points of damage into a 600 ehp target, for example.
Weapon damage (x): 200
Weapon bonus (a): 10% (110% total)
Resist (b): 10%
Total target health (y): 600
Plugged into your equation of x*a=y*b, we get 200(1.1) = 600b, with b needing to be .3666...(etc). Does that sound correct? No, because your equation is for damage needed to kill, not damage done by single shot.
Like Ghosts said, your math is correct, but you're tying to find a different value.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
611
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:
You solved for (b), which you already provided, and due to the associative law the statement is false because a=b, they cancel each other out leaving 200 = 600, which is not true. What you solved for was how much of a damage penalty would be needed for a 200hp shot to kill a suit with 600hp. :/
Yeah, I had quite a bit of trouble trying to shoehorn the damage profile into your EHP equation, because they're not the same thing. But that's just it, you're trying to use a "x needed to kill y" equation to try and find a "x does z" answer.
I'm starting to regret trying to shoehorn, however, because now it's going to distract from the point that EHP w/ resist =/= damage w/ bonus.
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
611
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ghosts Chance wrote:now lets try to see how much damage we can stuff into a breach mass driver :P
aparently on a minmatar commando with 2 damage mods you can get it to aproximatly 546 (i aproximated the penalty on the second dmg mod)
meaning you can ALMOST 2 shot a gal heavy with it with direct hits.... thats insane, its a shotgun basically..... assuming they dont change the dmg profile of the MD that is... and its down to the wire, and depending on build....
i forse breach mass drivers being clutch the only problem is commandos cant have granades...
Don't forget this post, Ghosts:
CCP Logibro wrote:Well, that's not the only thing the Mass Driver is getting in 1.8
Increased base direct/splash damage from 242/116 to 300/145
So, if the base MD is getting buffed to 300 direct damage, what's the new breach value going to be?
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
611
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 17:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Asha Starwind wrote:
Just think about if you know how much you're dishing out 200pts of damage(x) that deals 10% bonus damage(a) to a specific defense, random person(y) walking around gets 15% resist(b) to x damage type. How much damage does y receive? We know a,b,x, so we're solving for y. The answer should be 191.3
Except there's a big difference between dividing by 1.15 (the resistance bonus to the target's health) and multipying by 0.85 (the resistance penalty) to the damage done. One gets you 191.3, the other gets you 187. You're still using the resistance as a bonus to the target (a wonky ehp calculation) instead of using it as a penalty to the damage (damage done calculation).
Having a 15% resistance to something doesn't give you 15% more hp against it.
Having a 50% resistance lowers the incoming damage by 50%, leaving it with 50% damage left, or half (1/2). This means your EHP against it is twice as much (2/1), because it takes them two shots to do the damage of one shot against 0% resistance. This works though because 50% is a easy, even number.
Having a 15% resistance lowers the incoming damage by 15%, leaving it with 85% damage left, or 85/100 (simplified: 17/20). This means your EHP against it is 20/17, or actually 17.6% greater.
Three 200 point shots to kill 600hp with no resists. 600/(200 x 1.0)
Six 200 point shots to kill 600ehp with 50% resists. 600/(200 x 0.5)
3.529 200 point shots to kill 600ehp with 15% resists. 600/(200 x .85)
Those 3.529 200 damage shots equal out to 705.88 damage done. 705.88/600 = 1.176
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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Arx Ardashir
Imperium Aeternum
628
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Posted - 2014.03.03 17:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:
There is AN answer to Gal Heavies, but it's gonna suck to put into action.
It has splash resistance, but this is not EXPLOSIVE resistance. This means that DIRECT DAMAGE explosives will still deal 125% damage.
Answer? Breach MD.
A proto Breach MD will deal 535 damage to armor a shot. Combine with flux, and you can two shot a Gal Heavy.
Get good at direct shots people. You're gonna need it.
Ghosts Chance and I came to that conclusion at the end of page 3. 
Now is the winter of our non-content.
Ghosts Chance's hero for 3/1/14.
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