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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
689
   |
Posted - 2014.02.19 06:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods.
I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this.
Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile.
The Video.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
453
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 06:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video.
Proto doesnt need to get stronger
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
453
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Posted - 2014.02.19 06:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video.
That video proves shield tanks need buffing
It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica....
2 exiles assault rifles,
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
690
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 06:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica....
Remember, the swarm user has proficiency 3, and the second life had 2 complex mods. That greatly increases their power. As well, This was without using hardeners, which barely add any price to the tank, and would have drastically increased the number of swarms needed.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
407
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica....
It actually took one more shot to kill the Soma than the Sica, remember two things though, the Soma has a higher base EHP and it took two volleys before I got into his armor, and the Sica comes with a yellow print heavy shield booster. Had he boosted his shields, it would've taken at least 2 more volleys to get through.
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Berserker007
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
444
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video.
sry but this proves nothing really. As this doesn't simulate a battle situation. Having a vehicle sit there for a test may give a minimal idea; but doesn't prove anything. You need vehicles w/ modules on them an being used to get any sort of baseline idea and even that doesn't give a good idea of AV interaction.
Good effort/idea but the concept is flawed
Closed Beta Vet
Mordu's Trials Winner
Original IMP
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4977
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. sry but this proves nothing really. As this doesn't simulate a battle situation. Having a vehicle sit there for a test may give a minimal idea; but doesn't prove anything. You need vehicles w/ modules on them an being used to get any sort of baseline idea and even that doesn't give a good idea of AV interaction. Good effort/idea but the concept is flawed
Correct. He needs three more tanks turning on hardeners as soon as they take damage and bugging out while the others replace it.
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
453
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica.... It actually took one more shot to kill the Soma than the Sica, remember two things though, the Soma has a higher base EHP and it took two volleys before I got into his armor, and the Sica comes with a yellow print heavy shield booster. Had he boosted his shields, it would've taken at least 2 more volleys to get through.
Yup shields on vehicles need buffing too
It shoukd take more explosive rounds to kill a shield tano than a armor one, and booster is just lol
And hav's need a team quota of 2 or 3, fix nitros too.
And ccp wanted av to use teamwork so yea, whatever though.
2 exiles assault rifles,
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
317
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shure.... you can test same - meele dmg vs tank.
I dont see any tank tkat hold still and dont shoot to swarm launcher user.
1. Almost OHK or one more hit to remove threat.
2. Tank are in motion. Swarms do less dmg to that target.
3. If tank feel danger, just fast go away and regen or recal.
You can kill tank only when pilot fall asleep or in panic stuck to building. 1% chance? |
Bendtner92
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1742
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 07:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
As the others said the video doesn't really say much.
Swarms need either more lock-on range or more damage. More lock-on range preferably. I'm thinking like 250 meters.
The other problem with Swarms is the 50% damage increase from Standard to Proto. Such a huge damage increase will always mean that either Proto is OP or Standard is UP (right now Standard is UP, before 1.7 Proto was OP). It needs to be reduced to a 20% damage increase (like with the Forge).
You do that by making ALL Swarms no matter tier or anything have the same amount of missiles per shot, and then increase the damage on each missile across the tiers. For example:
Militia and Standard: 4 missiles of 280 damage, total 1120 damage.
Advanced : 4 missiles of 308 damage, total 1232 damage (10% increase from Standard).
Proto: 4 missiles of 336 damage, total 1344 damage (20% increase from Standard).
This would balance them, instead of Standard being terribly UP right now.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
691
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
The point was to see how much effort a swarm needed to do to destroy a tank, period. This wasn't theorycrafted on a calculator. This was actual footage of how many swarms were needed to kill a militia tank. The point is, even sitting there letting him blow me up, it still took 4-5 proto swarms to destroy me, even with his proficiency 3. That should not be. The point I had going in was that swarm damage was good at the proto level, but the problem was application of that damage.
We discussed making swarms go as fast as missiles from tanks and installations, slowing tanks down, and other things about keeping the current damage, and changing other factors to make it harder for tanks to avoid swarms, and thus making it easier for swarms to kill tanks without directly buffing their damage.
But as was shown, the prototype swarms, even with proficiency, and some with damage mods, still struggled to kill a tank THAT WAS NOT FIGHTING BACK AT ALL. I could have killed him at any time, but even offering no resistance, it took more than one magazine of proto swarms (with prof 3, don't forget that) to down my tank. That long reload gives me plenty of time to respond and take him out, and even if I fit nothing at all beyond what comes on the base militia tank, I still have a large chance of surviving the encounter, simply because he cannot put out enough damage.
I think a small damage increase, or increasing the magazine size of swarms by 1 at each level, would do wonders to help them be a threat to tanks. Swarms should be able to kill a tank that offers no resistance in one magazine.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
|
Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
691
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:As the others said the video doesn't really say much.
Swarms need either more lock-on range or more damage. More lock-on range preferably. I'm thinking like 250 meters.
The other problem with Swarms is the 50% damage increase from Standard to Proto. Such a huge damage increase will always mean that either Proto is OP or Standard is UP (right now Standard is UP, before 1.7 Proto was OP). It needs to be reduced to a 20% damage increase (like with the Forge).
You do that by making ALL Swarms no matter tier or anything have the same amount of missiles per shot, and then increase the damage on each missile across the tiers. For example:
Militia and Standard: 4 missiles of 280 damage, total 1120 damage.
Advanced : 4 missiles of 308 damage, total 1232 damage (10% increase from Standard).
Proto: 4 missiles of 336 damage, total 1344 damage (20% increase from Standard).
This would balance them, instead of Standard being terribly UP right now.
I said exactly that in the OP.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video.
The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms.
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4980
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms.
Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything.
I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team.
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Jack Boost
Zarena Family
317
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
If only swarms dont do dmg (as now ;) and disable/slow vehicle for shor period of time and stop regen on vehicles, there will still place for it.
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L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
505
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Posted - 2014.02.19 10:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The point was to see how much effort a swarm needed to do to destroy a tank, period. This wasn't theorycrafted on a calculator. This was actual footage of how many swarms were needed to kill a militia tank. The point is, even sitting there letting him blow me up, it still took 4-5 proto swarms to destroy me, even with his proficiency 3. That should not be. The point I had going in was that swarm damage was good at the proto level, but the problem was application of that damage.
We discussed making swarms go as fast as missiles from tanks and installations, slowing tanks down, and other things about keeping the current damage, and changing other factors to make it harder for tanks to avoid swarms, and thus making it easier for swarms to kill tanks without directly buffing their damage.
But as was shown, the prototype swarms, even with proficiency, and some with damage mods, still struggled to kill a tank THAT WAS NOT FIGHTING BACK AT ALL. I could have killed him at any time, but even offering no resistance, it took more than one magazine of proto swarms (with prof 3, don't forget that) to down my tank. That long reload gives me plenty of time to respond and take him out, and even if I fit nothing at all beyond what comes on the base militia tank, I still have a large chance of surviving the encounter, simply because he cannot put out enough damage.
I think a small damage increase, or increasing the magazine size of swarms by 1 at each level, would do wonders to help them be a threat to tanks. Swarms should be able to kill a tank that offers no resistance in one magazine.
The resiliency of milita tanks is absolutely absurd. We've all known it for a while, but seeing actual footage to illustrate the point should help. They do too much damage, and they soak too much damage. I like a good deal as much as the next fellow, but they offer waaaaay too much bang for your buck. |
Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms. Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything. I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team.
when it was expensive for tankers no one cared they just said it was all qq and poorly fitted tanks and in pre 1.7 it only took 1 lav and a heavy with a FG to kill a tank. Jihad lav FG dead tank nano hive av nades dead tank now that it takes some effort. People want to complain its expensive please how is it expensive if the load is shared by 3 different players. Pre 1.7 tanks were averaging 1.5 mil that was for 1 person to bear.
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Ld Collins
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
115
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms. Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything. I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team. when it was expensive for tankers no one cared they just said it was all qq and poorly fitted tanks and in pre 1.7 it only took 1 lav and a heavy with a FG to kill a tank. Jihad lav FG dead tank nano hive av nades dead tank now that it takes some effort. People want to complain its expensive please how is it expensive if the load is shared by 3 different players. Pre 1.7 tanks were averaging 1.5 mil that was for 1 person to bear. Also the way things are with RR atm it does take what's that word people were telling tankers a SQUAD to be effective solo tanking in 1.6 thats a stupid move.
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Cody Sietz
Bullet Cluster
Legacy Rising
2342
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
NK Scout wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica.... It actually took one more shot to kill the Soma than the Sica, remember two things though, the Soma has a higher base EHP and it took two volleys before I got into his armor, and the Sica comes with a yellow print heavy shield booster. Had he boosted his shields, it would've taken at least 2 more volleys to get through. Yup shields on vehicles need buffing too It shoukd take more explosive rounds to kill a shield tano than a armor one, and booster is just lol And hav's need a team quota of 2 or 3, fix nitros too. And ccp wanted av to use teamwork so yea, whatever though.
They always wanted tanks to cost a lot and require skill to use.
That has changed.
"I do agree with you there though. shudders"
-Arkena Wyrnspire
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
453
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cody Sietz wrote:NK Scout wrote:ratamaq doc wrote:NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica.... It actually took one more shot to kill the Soma than the Sica, remember two things though, the Soma has a higher base EHP and it took two volleys before I got into his armor, and the Sica comes with a yellow print heavy shield booster. Had he boosted his shields, it would've taken at least 2 more volleys to get through. Yup shields on vehicles need buffing too It shoukd take more explosive rounds to kill a shield tano than a armor one, and booster is just lol And hav's need a team quota of 2 or 3, fix nitros too. And ccp wanted av to use teamwork so yea, whatever though. They always wanted tanks to cost a lot and require skill to use. That has changed.
Im talking shield tanks
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IMMORTAL WAR HERO
NECROM0NGERS
The CORVOS
86
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Posted - 2014.02.19 11:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica....
agreed 3 bullets left in clip or nerf forg guns as those are made for sheild tanks yet are for some reason the deadliest weapon vs armor plus being even more devestatong to sheild
Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
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IMMORTAL WAR HERO
NECROM0NGERS
The CORVOS
86
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. sry but this proves nothing really. As this doesn't simulate a battle situation. Having a vehicle sit there for a test may give a minimal idea; but doesn't prove anything. You need vehicles w/ modules on them an being used to get any sort of baseline idea and even that doesn't give a good idea of AV interaction. Good effort/idea but the concept is flawed
it proves original mechanics before fighting are broken tho
Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
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steadyhand amarr
TeamPlayers
Negative-Feedback
2339
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 11:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Awsome data gathering by the OP. The rest of thread proves how stuiped this player base is.
Conclusion the dust connunty is perfect at pointing out somthing that is broken or will break but complety and utterly useless at provding a fix for the problem.
For those not understanding the video here is a nice easy breakdown.
The effort to kill a tank with swarms is off kilter. As it takes lots of effort in base setting.
Moved to a battle suition it would prove also most impossable to kill a tank. As the tank could withdraw, kill the user, turn reps on, swamer gets killed etc. Based on the video even two people would be harded pressed
"i dont care about you or your goals, just show me the dam isk"
winner of EU squad cup
GOGO power rangers
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NK Scout
Storm Wind Strikeforce
Caldari State
453
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Posted - 2014.02.19 11:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
IMMORTAL WAR HERO wrote:NK Scout wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica.... agreed 3 bullets left in clip or nerf forg guns as those are made for sheild tanks yet are for some reason the deadliest weapon vs armor plus being even more devestatong to sheild
No....forge guns are meant for armor.........
2 exiles assault rifles,
Skinweave caldari frame,
Staff recruiter mlt frame,
Templar set
Caldari Master Race
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Tailss Prower
501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit
185
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 12:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
you do understand that swarms are naturally weaker against shields which kinda defeats the purpose of this thread now if it was harder to kill the soma than the sica with swarms then you have a problem but basing it off a shield tank and to make it worse your basing it off a mlt/std swarm launcher if you was using proto with like 1-2 dmg mods you would have killed the sica and soma with 3 shots easy now if you were comparing mlt swarms vs mlt tank fine but not really a good way to test them out vs stronger fits besides duel hardners I highly doubt was intended by CCP so they will most likely change this anyway and there is teir swarms for a reason
Besides didn't CCP state before 1.7 that tanks would have moments they are strong and moments when they were weak its easy make him pop his hardner granted this is if he only has 1 like say after CCP fixes that issue then wait for his hardner to cut off and pound away at his HP i only use 1 hardner on my tank and I have seen plenty hurt me harshly with AV even swarms alot of the time a proto swarm could take over 30% of my shields in 1 hit when I don't have my hardner on the issues I see is alot are not using their head and waiting for thier hardners to turn back off cause unless you got enough people hitting him with AV your chances of killing him before he starts to run is low but wait for that hardner to shut off and ambush him and I bet you he won't survive |
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
EoN.
2633
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Posted - 2014.02.19 12:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
If i had a cap card i would go through each method of AV
Do swarms, FG, lolPLC and even mines and AV nades
Do it against all the tanks, with varying fits and also x amount of AV players from 1 to 3
But its okay doing it when the tank is stood still in a battle its always different
Intelligence is OP
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
409
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Posted - 2014.02.19 16:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tailss Prower wrote:you do understand that swarms are naturally weaker against shields which kinda defeats the purpose of this thread now if it was harder to kill the soma than the sica with swarms then you have a problem but basing it off a shield tank and to make it worse your basing it off a mlt/std swarm launcher if you was using proto with like 1-2 dmg mods you would have killed the sica and soma with 3 shots easy now if you were comparing mlt swarms vs mlt tank fine but not really a good way to test them out vs stronger fits besides duel hardners I highly doubt was intended by CCP so they will most likely change this anyway and there is teir swarms for a reason
Besides didn't CCP state before 1.7 that tanks would have moments they are strong and moments when they were weak its easy make him pop his hardner granted this is if he only has 1 like say after CCP fixes that issue then wait for his hardner to cut off and pound away at his HP i only use 1 hardner on my tank and I have seen plenty hurt me harshly with AV even swarms alot of the time a proto swarm could take over 30% of my shields in 1 hit when I don't have my hardner on the issues I see is alot are not using their head and waiting for thier hardners to turn back off cause unless you got enough people hitting him with AV your chances of killing him before he starts to run is low but wait for that hardner to shut off and ambush him and I bet you he won't survive
He second round of test was with proto pref 3 swarms with 2complex DMG mods. Took 3 volleys to kill the Sica (yellow print shield boost would've added the need for 1 or 2 more volleys) and 4 shots to kill the Soma.
24 seconds base is not a moment, on the battle field when your primary weapon can only shoot vehicles, it's an eternity.
The most surprising thing to me was that proto swarms weren't enough to even break the shield regen of a single hardened tank.
I think most agree that the problem is the low cost of militia tanks (spam) hardeners, the speed that tanks can escape, how effective blasters are vs infantry, and that swarms at any level other than proto are useless with proto being only mildly useful. Before this build I had 5 different swarm fits. I only have one now because every other was a waist of space.
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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Tailss Prower
501ST JFW StrikerZ Unit
185
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 16:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Tailss Prower wrote:you do understand that swarms are naturally weaker against shields which kinda defeats the purpose of this thread now if it was harder to kill the soma than the sica with swarms then you have a problem but basing it off a shield tank and to make it worse your basing it off a mlt/std swarm launcher if you was using proto with like 1-2 dmg mods you would have killed the sica and soma with 3 shots easy now if you were comparing mlt swarms vs mlt tank fine but not really a good way to test them out vs stronger fits besides duel hardners I highly doubt was intended by CCP so they will most likely change this anyway and there is teir swarms for a reason
Besides didn't CCP state before 1.7 that tanks would have moments they are strong and moments when they were weak its easy make him pop his hardner granted this is if he only has 1 like say after CCP fixes that issue then wait for his hardner to cut off and pound away at his HP i only use 1 hardner on my tank and I have seen plenty hurt me harshly with AV even swarms alot of the time a proto swarm could take over 30% of my shields in 1 hit when I don't have my hardner on the issues I see is alot are not using their head and waiting for thier hardners to turn back off cause unless you got enough people hitting him with AV your chances of killing him before he starts to run is low but wait for that hardner to shut off and ambush him and I bet you he won't survive He second round of test was with proto pref 3 swarms with 2complex DMG mods. Took 3 volleys to kill the Sica (yellow print shield boost would've added the need for 1 or 2 more volleys) and 4 shots to kill the Soma. 24 seconds base is not a moment, on the battle field when your primary weapon can only shoot vehicles, it's an eternity. The most surprising thing to me was that proto swarms weren't enough to even break the shield regen of a single hardened tank. I think most agree that the problem is the low cost of militia tanks (spam) hardeners, the speed that tanks can escape, how effective blasters are vs infantry, and that swarms at any level other than proto are useless with proto being only mildly useful. Before this build I had 5 different swarm fits. I only have one now because every other was a waist of space. yes I think there is a bug because we can regen shields when being hit by swarms with hardner on but other than that its not that bad because once that hardner is gone it hurts
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
880
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Posted - 2014.02.19 16:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. sry but this proves nothing really. As this doesn't simulate a battle situation. Having a vehicle sit there for a test may give a minimal idea; but doesn't prove anything. You need vehicles w/ modules on them an being used to get any sort of baseline idea and even that doesn't give a good idea of AV interaction. Good effort/idea but the concept is flawed
If they underperform in ideal circumstances....who cares? This game gets lamer and lamer each passing day.
Who wants some?
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Aeon Amadi
Ancient Exiles.
Renegade Alliance
4988
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 17:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms. Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything. I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team. when it was expensive for tankers no one cared they just said it was all qq and poorly fitted tanks and in pre 1.7 it only took 1 lav and a heavy with a FG to kill a tank. Jihad lav FG dead tank nano hive av nades dead tank now that it takes some effort. People want to complain its expensive please how is it expensive if the load is shared by 3 different players. Pre 1.7 tanks were averaging 1.5 mil that was for 1 person to bear.
Well, now your tanks are far more powerful and cost less than most of my Advanced suits, let alone my Proto AV suits. Soooo, which are you willing to sacrifice? Power or price?
Useful Links
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133588
//forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134182
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The dark cloud
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
2230
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:22:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nice that you showed that you can destroy a militia tank when its not moving, not shoting at you and most importantly doesnt use their modules (until the end). Armor and shield tanks can tank av nonstop as soon they maxed out their skills which reduce the cooldown time and increase the runtime for modules.
The most popular fits for tanks at the moment are these:
madrugar:
-1 large repper
-2X complex hardeners (cooldown time: 37,5 secs, runtime: 45 secs, no timewindow to put actual damage on it)
gunnlogi:
-large shield extender/shield booster
-2 complex hardeners (cooldown time: 45 secs, runtime: 30 secs, you have 15 secs to destroy it)
-stats are with all skills to lvl5*
So to make this clear a armor tanker can be on godmode the whole time and never has to retreat. The shield tank gives you a "chance" of a 15 second time window but this can be neglected when he decides to run 3 hardeners instead of 2. In my opinion there should be a limitation of 1 hardener on tankfits like with the old damage control unit. It cannot be that people drive around in tanks which are hardened non stop. The high mobility makes this even worse cause once you maybe could destroy the tank he simply drives off.
Either hardeners need to get restrictions/nerfbatted or AV weapons (swarms/plasma canon) need to become sidearms. Cause i dont really see a chance for regular infantry to take out these things. And no spamming 20 proxy mines on the floor is not the answer to this. When tanks can run their hardeners the whole time then they should aswell be exposed to AV the whole time.
I shall show you a world, a world which you cant imagine, a world full off butthurt n00bs at the other end of my gun
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2520
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:23:00 -
[32] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile.
That would be a massive buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launchers, giving them the same damage they had in 1.6. Considering that every player has access to Militia Swarms for free on the Starter AV suit, I think this is a serious problem.
Also you are proposing a 44% buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launcher damage while only giving the Proto Swarm Launcher a 12% damage buff.
I personally prefer giving Swarm Launchers a 12% buff across the board (increasing missel damage from 220 to 250, but not changing the current missile counts), plus giving them a 12% range buff (increasing lock range from 175m to 200m.)
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Darken-Soul
BIG BAD W0LVES
884
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 17:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms. Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything. I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team. when it was expensive for tankers no one cared they just said it was all qq and poorly fitted tanks and in pre 1.7 it only took 1 lav and a heavy with a FG to kill a tank. Jihad lav FG dead tank nano hive av nades dead tank now that it takes some effort. People want to complain its expensive please how is it expensive if the load is shared by 3 different players. Pre 1.7 tanks were averaging 1.5 mil that was for 1 person to bear. Well, now your tanks are far more powerful and cost less than most of my Advanced suits, let alone my Proto AV suits. Soooo, which are you willing to sacrifice? Power or price?
your useful links aren't really links or useful
Who wants some?
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Dovallis Martan JenusKoll
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
608
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 17:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:The point was to see how much effort a swarm needed to do to destroy a tank, period. This wasn't theorycrafted on a calculator. This was actual footage of how many swarms were needed to kill a militia tank. The point is, even sitting there letting him blow me up, it still took 4-5 proto swarms to destroy me, even with his proficiency 3. That should not be. The point I had going in was that swarm damage was good at the proto level, but the problem was application of that damage.
We discussed making swarms go as fast as missiles from tanks and installations, slowing tanks down, and other things about keeping the current damage, and changing other factors to make it harder for tanks to avoid swarms, and thus making it easier for swarms to kill tanks without directly buffing their damage.
But as was shown, the prototype swarms, even with proficiency, and some with damage mods, still struggled to kill a tank THAT WAS NOT FIGHTING BACK AT ALL. I could have killed him at any time, but even offering no resistance, it took more than one magazine of proto swarms (with prof 3, don't forget that) to down my tank. That long reload gives me plenty of time to respond and take him out, and even if I fit nothing at all beyond what comes on the base militia tank, I still have a large chance of surviving the encounter, simply because he cannot put out enough damage.
I think a small damage increase, or increasing the magazine size of swarms by 1 at each level, would do wonders to help them be a threat to tanks. Swarms should be able to kill a tank that offers no resistance in one magazine.
Swarms are supplementary damage... This whole video is like taking a heavy suit then asking how many body shots it takes a basic scrambler pistol to kill the heavy with..
If you were looking at Primary AV then a forge gun is your target.
Besides. The fact that swarms Aim FOR you is another reason they have reduced damage. However, the militia did perform sub-par even for a supplement.
If you can read this, it means you are reading.
Unless you are skimming
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Evicer
THE HECATONCHIRES
171
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Posted - 2014.02.19 17:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video.
Picture is worth a thousand words......Plus 1 to the OP
Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute
Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
409
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 17:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. That would be a massive buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launchers, giving them the same damage they had in 1.6. Considering that every player has access to Militia Swarms for free on the Starter AV suit, I think this is a serious problem. Also you are proposing a 44% buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launcher damage while only giving the Proto Swarm Launcher a 12% damage buff. I personally prefer giving Swarm Launchers a 12% buff across the board (increasing missel damage from 220 to 250, but not changing the current missile counts), plus giving them a 12% range buff (increasing lock range from 175m to 200m.)
Militia tanks require 0 sp also.
The increase to missile count is a problem because it creates a 50% increase to damage moving from STD to Proto. This is why the proto swarm launcher out performs the proto PLC on shield vehicles, which shouldn't be the case given the PLC is the anti shield AV and out performs, or does its job correctly at STD level. By leaving the nerfed proto swarm where it is, or maybe a mild damage increase, then doing whatever is needed to make the ADV 5% weaker and STD 10% weaker you put it inline with every other weapon in the game. By leaving it the way it is, you habe a situation where either one is to weak (this build) or one is too strong (last build)
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
409
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 18:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:The point was to see how much effort a swarm needed to do to destroy a tank, period. This wasn't theorycrafted on a calculator. This was actual footage of how many swarms were needed to kill a militia tank. The point is, even sitting there letting him blow me up, it still took 4-5 proto swarms to destroy me, even with his proficiency 3. That should not be. The point I had going in was that swarm damage was good at the proto level, but the problem was application of that damage.
We discussed making swarms go as fast as missiles from tanks and installations, slowing tanks down, and other things about keeping the current damage, and changing other factors to make it harder for tanks to avoid swarms, and thus making it easier for swarms to kill tanks without directly buffing their damage.
But as was shown, the prototype swarms, even with proficiency, and some with damage mods, still struggled to kill a tank THAT WAS NOT FIGHTING BACK AT ALL. I could have killed him at any time, but even offering no resistance, it took more than one magazine of proto swarms (with prof 3, don't forget that) to down my tank. That long reload gives me plenty of time to respond and take him out, and even if I fit nothing at all beyond what comes on the base militia tank, I still have a large chance of surviving the encounter, simply because he cannot put out enough damage.
I think a small damage increase, or increasing the magazine size of swarms by 1 at each level, would do wonders to help them be a threat to tanks. Swarms should be able to kill a tank that offers no resistance in one magazine. Swarms are supplementary damage... This whole video is like taking a heavy suit then asking how many body shots it takes a basic scrambler pistol to kill the heavy with.. If you were looking at Primary AV then a forge gun is your target. Besides. The fact that swarms Aim FOR you is another reason they have reduced damage. However, the militia did perform sub-par even for a supplement.
How can you say that a weapon that only has one purpose is a supplement to that purpose. If you are suggesting that a SL should be a side arm, in its current state, I would agree. As far as lockon, trust me you don't want to bring back the shoulder fired missile turret.
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2520
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 18:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ld Collins wrote:The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms.
Why include a Swarm Launcher? Two Forge Gunners would be more effective than one Forge Gunner and a Swarm Launcher. Or were you trying to use the argument that: GÇ£Swarms are fine because Forge Guns can gill tanks.GÇ¥?
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
702
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 18:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. That would be a massive buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launchers, giving them the same damage they had in 1.6. Considering that every player has access to Militia Swarms for free on the Starter AV suit, I think this is a serious problem. Also you are proposing a 44% buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launcher damage while only giving the Proto Swarm Launcher a 12% damage buff. I personally prefer giving Swarm Launchers a 12% buff across the board (increasing missile damage from 220 to 250, but not changing the current missile counts), plus giving them a 12% range buff (increasing lock range from 175m to 200m.)
I propose the changes because of how ridiculous the current damage scaling is on swarms. No other weapon, and I mean NO OTHER WEAPON, scales as heavily as swarms do. They go up by 220 damage a tier. The closest thing that does that is large railguns, which go up in damage by 218 a tier.
As was shown in the video, under Ideal conditions, a standard swarm launcher took two magazines to kill an armor tank, which it has bonus damage to.
I think the best demonstration was against my Gunnlogi at the end. With hardeners up, He couldn't down me period. This is as it should be. But when he sht me with my hardeners off, he took my entire shield off in 3 swarms. That's what should happen. I have my wave of opportunity when my hardener is up, where I can get in, do my job, and get out. His wave of opportunity begins when my hardener turns off, which is keeping me away while my cooldowns are running. The problem with tanks is they can bypass that cooldown by running multiple hardeners. That is unfair. One hardener per vehicle. Make all tiers of hardeners have the same uptime and cooldown. (caveat: armor and shield hardeners can be different from each other) Make base resistance increase among the tiers. for shields, 60% at standard, 80% at proto. A proto hardener should mean I can take on any AV that comes my way. But when that hardener turns off, AV should have a big window, on the order of 2-3 minutes, where they can easily drive me away/kill me. Also, Add in wp for damaging tanks enough to retreat.
The infantry game is the keystone of Dust. In the end, what matters is capturing and holding objectives. Everything else[u] is in support of the infantry. A tank should be an asset the same as an orbital. It should be used for 30 seconds or whatever, and then cannot be used for 2-3 minutes without fear of losing it quickly.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2520
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:26:00 -
[40] - Quote
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:Swarms are supplementary damage... This whole video is like taking a heavy suit then asking how many body shots it takes a basic scrambler pistol to kill the heavy with..
If you were looking at Primary AV then a forge gun is your target.
Besides. The fact that swarms Aim FOR you is another reason they have reduced damage. However, the militia did perform sub-par even for a supplement.
First, the fee militia Swarm Launchers are supposed to be supplementary damage. The Proto Swarm Launcher is supposed to be an affective AV weapon, which it is not currently.
Second, if you think that the Swarm Launcher is easy mode because it aims for you, then you must think that Redline Sniping is the most challenging hard core role in the game, because it is definitely the most difficult aiming scenario.
Think about why Redline Sniping is not considered hard core, then apply the inverse to the Swarm Launcher, and you might realise why the Swarm Launcher is not easy mode.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
2521
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:54:00 -
[41] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. That would be a massive buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launchers, giving them the same damage they had in 1.6. Considering that every player has access to Militia Swarms for free on the Starter AV suit, I think this is a serious problem. Also you are proposing a 44% buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launcher damage while only giving the Proto Swarm Launcher a 12% damage buff. I personally prefer giving Swarm Launchers a 12% buff across the board (increasing missile damage from 220 to 250, but not changing the current missile counts), plus giving them a 12% range buff (increasing lock range from 175m to 200m.) I propose the changes because of how ridiculous the current damage scaling is on swarms. No other weapon, and I mean NO OTHER WEAPON, scales as heavily as swarms do. They go up by 220 damage a tier. The closest thing that does that is large railguns, which go up in damage by 218 a tier. As was shown in the video, under Ideal conditions, a standard swarm launcher took two magazines to kill an armor tank, which it has bonus damage to.I think the best demonstration was against my Gunnlogi at the end. With hardeners up, He couldn't down me period. This is as it should be. But when he sht me with my hardeners off, he took my entire shield off in 3 swarms. That's what should happen. I have my wave of opportunity when my hardener is up, where I can get in, do my job, and get out. His wave of opportunity begins when my hardener turns off, which is keeping me away while my cooldowns are running. The problem with tanks is they can bypass that cooldown by running multiple hardeners. That is unfair. One hardener per vehicle. Make all tiers of hardeners have the same uptime and cooldown. (caveat: armor and shield hardeners can be different from each other) Make base resistance increase among the tiers. for shields, 60% at standard, 80% at proto. A proto hardener should mean I can take on any AV that comes my way. But when that hardener turns off, AV should have a big window, on the order of 2-3 minutes, where they can easily drive me away/kill me. Also, Add in wp for damaging tanks enough to retreat. The infantry game is the keystone of Dust. In the end, what matters is capturing and holding objectives. Everything else[u] is in support of the infantry. A tank should be an asset the same as an orbital. It should be used for 30 seconds or whatever, and then cannot be used for 2-3 minutes without fear of losing it quickly.
- Militia Swarms on the free starter suit are supposed to be supplementary damage. For a primary AV weapon you need to skill into them. It is not just Damage on the Forge Gun that scales up, the charge time scales with Operation skill as well. Have you tried killing a tank with a Militia Fodge Gun and no Operation skill? To be good at AV you need to invest skills in it. Otherwise you get the inverse of the current Militia Tank spam.
- I totally agree on the Hardener stacking. No windows of opportunity sort of undermines CCPGÇÖs vision for V/AV balance.
Fox Gaden: DUST Wall of Fame, 2014
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Marc Rime
270
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Posted - 2014.02.19 19:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
In reality, swarms don't work that well (as in, it's even worse than the video suggests). The second volley will, should you manage to fire it before the tank has sped away, always manage to find a building, wall or minor bump in the ground.
EDIT: Funny how swarm launchers, which used to kill both infantry and vehicles, now can't kill either ;). |
Everything Dies
Chatelain Rapid Response
Gallente Federation
495
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Posted - 2014.02.19 20:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
All I'll say is this:
I'm a terrible tanker with absolutely zero SP spent on tanking skills. However, my blaster Soma scanning machine with one hardener absolutely laughs at swarms. It's more effective to stand your ground and take out the red rather than retreat. Forge guns/rail tanks, on the other hand, are a different matter...
Life is killing me.
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Billi Gene
489
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm sorry but i got thru two pages before i couldn't take it any more:
there is a subtle but significant logic fail to the OP's suggestions.
you want swarms buffed because militia tanks are too strong?
why not nerf militia tanks instead?.....hmmmmmmm..... because then you wont be stealth nerfing DROPSHIPS...that bastard child no one thinks of because hey... they are so squishy hardly anyone uses them, other then to suicide drop them onto roofs to plant uplinks....if they make it that far.
I think swarms need a range buff. maybe a very sleight damage buff, but i also think militia tanks are too good atm, maybe they need an EHP nerf or a fittings (CPU/PG) nerf, its up to CCP really :P
but don't be running to da forums with your shouty overly verbose screamy demands without thinking of the greater game balance..... puh-lease... because the last thing we need is for more stuff to get broken because people can't or won't use their heads!
apologies for the abusive rant :P... but go do your tests vs an Assault Dropship (hull costs 322k isk) before calling out for a stealth nerf :P
also: my tanks die to AV plenty... usually due to driver error but also when i have been played well with a 'bait and ambush', which i guess is driver error of a different sort :P ... if you can't kill a militia tank what hope do You have against a moderately skilled standard :P ......pfft single swarms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft
apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/
Pedant, Ape, Troll.
My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
713
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Billi Gene wrote:I'm sorry but i got thru two pages before i couldn't take it any more:
there is a subtle but significant logic fail to the OP's suggestions.
you want swarms buffed because militia tanks are too strong?
why not nerf militia tanks instead?.....hmmmmmmm..... because then you wont be stealth nerfing DROPSHIPS...that bastard child no one thinks of because hey... they are so squishy hardly anyone uses them, other then to suicide drop them onto roofs to plant uplinks....if they make it that far.
I think swarms need a range buff. maybe a very sleight damage buff, but i also think militia tanks are too good atm, maybe they need an EHP nerf or a fittings (CPU/PG) nerf, its up to CCP really :P
but don't be running to da forums with your shouty overly verbose screamy demands without thinking of the greater game balance..... puh-lease... because the last thing we need is for more stuff to get broken because people can't or won't use their heads!
apologies for the abusive rant :P... but go do your tests vs an Assault Dropship (hull costs 322k isk) before calling out for a stealth nerf :P
also: my tanks die to AV plenty... usually due to driver error but also when i have been played well with a 'bait and ambush', which i guess is driver error of a different sort :P ... if you can't kill a militia tank what hope do You have against a moderately skilled standard :P ......pfft single swarms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft
apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/
Since I usually fly dropships, I was against a damage buff as well. But the new numbers will not hurt dropships all that much, especially once hardeners and their speed are taken into account.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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Alena Ventrallis
The Neutral Zone
713
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:- Militia Swarms on the free starter suit are supposed to be supplementary damage. For a primary AV weapon you need to skill into them. It is not just Damage on the Forge Gun that scales up, the charge time scales with Operation skill as well. Have you tried killing a tank with a Militia Fodge Gun and no Operation skill? To be good at AV you need to invest skills in it. Otherwise you get the inverse of the current Militia Tank spam.
They are not to be supplementary any more than the militia AR is supplementary to the Duvolle. It is merely a standard weapon which requires no skill to use and has a higher fitting cost.
Best PVE idea I've seen.
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ratamaq doc
Edge Regiment
409
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:45:00 -
[47] - Quote
Billi Gene wrote:I'm sorry but i got thru two pages before i couldn't take it any more:
there is a subtle but significant logic fail to the OP's suggestions.
you want swarms buffed because militia tanks are too strong?
why not nerf militia tanks instead?.....hmmmmmmm..... because then you wont be stealth nerfing DROPSHIPS...that bastard child no one thinks of because hey... they are so squishy hardly anyone uses them, other then to suicide drop them onto roofs to plant uplinks....if they make it that far.
I think swarms need a range buff. maybe a very sleight damage buff, but i also think militia tanks are too good atm, maybe they need an EHP nerf or a fittings (CPU/PG) nerf, its up to CCP really :P
but don't be running to da forums with your shouty overly verbose screamy demands without thinking of the greater game balance..... puh-lease... because the last thing we need is for more stuff to get broken because people can't or won't use their heads!
apologies for the abusive rant :P... but go do your tests vs an Assault Dropship (hull costs 322k isk) before calling out for a stealth nerf :P
also: my tanks die to AV plenty... usually due to driver error but also when i have been played well with a 'bait and ambush', which i guess is driver error of a different sort :P ... if you can't kill a militia tank what hope do You have against a moderately skilled standard :P ......pfft single swarms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft
apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/
A simple PG/CPU nerf to militia tanks would be to force yellow print small turrets on them. This would weaken their potential and add the bonus of going after them to the tune of +2 kills. Tankers complaining about blues jumping in their tanks can skill into the STD hulls.
YouTube
30D Recruiting
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Billi Gene
490
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
ratamaq doc wrote:Billi Gene wrote:I'm sorry but i got thru tblah blah blahrms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft
apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/ A simple PG/CPU nerf to militia tanks would be to force yellow print small turrets on them. This would weaken their potential and add the bonus of going after them to the tune of +2 kills. Tankers complaining about blues jumping in their tanks can skill into the STD hulls.
whilst that would make militia squishier it would also make them deadlier imho, but yeah, having to allow someone into your tank would dissuade some pilots, but maybe not for militia tanks... not at their current price....
Pedant, Ape, Troll.
My Beard makes Alpha's sook :P
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CLONE117
planetary retaliation organisation
ACME Holding Conglomerate
684
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Posted - 2014.02.19 22:24:00 -
[49] - Quote
using the swarms by them selves are largely in effective and would take longer to kill a tank which is obvious in the video.
but. this is with the swarm and swarm only. and the tank was well within av nade or flux range depending on the type of tank being used.
a single player using nothing but a swarm launcher isnt able to slaughter every tank. and i believe it shouldnt be possible with just a single swarm launcher.
but chuck 3 av nades at an unhardened armor tank and u take down the shields along with some of its armor allowing u to finish it off with a single clip of swarms.
it works in the combat scenario areas as ive been successful with it so far. but the best way to maximize chances of success is to get into a position that puts yourself at an advantage over the tank you are looking to destroy.
for the perma hardened vehicle solution on how to solve it. im thinking of something that makes it impossible to cycle hardeners. so lets say u activate one armor hardener all the other armor hardeners on your vehicle activate at the same time.
this could potentially increase the window of opportunity part for av. could probably do the same to those vehicle damage mods as well.
along with these to further help at possible balance between hardened and unhardened vehicle. we could make hardeners slow the vehicle down to help out av players in getting into a position to counter the vehicle.
i think these changes could help av (and possible further tank vs tank balance) and at the same time doesnt pose any foreseeable negative effects for gameplay.
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Bojo The Mighty
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
3191
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Posted - 2014.02.19 22:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
Let's not buff swarms since they can still **** up LAVs and Installations
Let's nerf unfitted MLT tanks.
Bojo - Adding chili powder to your experience since early times
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2014
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Posted - 2014.02.19 22:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
This shows exactly what CCP were trying, and where they went wrong.
So unhardened tanks react as suspected, but as soon as you turn that hardner on, entire mags barely make a dent.
This shows that prehaps hardners need a magnitude nerf.
Combat Engineer in training.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Johnny Guilt
Algintal Core
511
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Posted - 2014.02.19 22:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
All the video showed me was why i should stick to REs as my AV
A strange game.
The only winning move is
not to play.
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Evicer
THE HECATONCHIRES
181
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Posted - 2014.02.21 10:45:00 -
[53] - Quote
good video
Fortune favors the Bold,but Success favors the Resolute
Unbent,Unburdened, UNSTOPPABLE Amarr loyalist
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Our Deepest Regret
L.O.T.I.S.
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
509
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Posted - 2014.02.22 04:12:00 -
[54] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Ld Collins wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. The only thing this video shows me is that 1 person shouldn't try to kill a tank on his own with a swarm launcher alone. Before 1.7 there use to be av squads that would run around in lavs and ambush tanks because they were extremely easy to kill but what everyone has done was given up and put all their skills into Rail Rifles. You show me a video of a commando, a heavy and a logibro in a lav attacking a hardened tank with the following. Assualt FG Flux nades Swarm Launchers and Av nades have the three of them jump out of the lav and ambush the tanker. Post that video and then the truth will come out. Give the Logi A 2 man rep tool a nano hive and a scanner give the heavy a decent FG fit and the commando dual Swarms. Three guys to kill one tank. That's funny. I suppose I can request that my Gallente Assault suit should have enough armor that it should require three other players to kill me..? Because it's expensive..? While we're at it, bear in mind that the reason those AV teams don't really exist anymore is because AV Grenades got nerfed to hell. Light infantry can't just run up on a tank and destroy it with burst damage like that anymore, especially what with dual-hardener shield tanks being able to recharge through almost anything. I used to run these exact things with Harlequin13 - we've tried it a few times since 1.7 dropped. Doesn't work nearly as well anymore. You're better off dropping in a railgun tank to alpha-strike it to death or use a forge team. when it was expensive for tankers no one cared they just said it was all qq and poorly fitted tanks and in pre 1.7 it only took 1 lav and a heavy with a FG to kill a tank. Jihad lav FG dead tank nano hive av nades dead tank now that it takes some effort. People want to complain its expensive please how is it expensive if the load is shared by 3 different players. Pre 1.7 tanks were averaging 1.5 mil that was for 1 person to bear. Well, now your tanks are far more powerful and cost less than most of my Advanced suits, let alone my Proto AV suits. Soooo, which are you willing to sacrifice? Power or price?
Price gawd demmit, price! I'm sorry, I love my tank, I got ten million SP invested in the bastard as proof, but tanks are too ******* good right now. For the performance you get out of them, they should have doubled the price, not reduced it.
If they don't reduce the performance of militia tanks, then the only right thing to is mark up their price. BY TEN FOLD. Yes folks, I am saying that Somas and Sicas should cost over a million isk. Militia means you can use something without skill: There's no rule that says they have to be cheap too. Let's bring the economic game back to tanks. It wasn't just AV that kept the tank population under control last build, it was the prohibitive pricing too. |
Scout Registry
Nos Nothi
1315
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Posted - 2014.02.22 04:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
So now can I have my Swarm SP back? |
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