DUST Search - Swarms vs Tanks. Video

Billi Gene wrote:

I'm sorry but i got thru two pages before i couldn't take it any more:

there is a subtle but significant logic fail to the OP's suggestions.

you want swarms buffed because militia tanks are too strong?

why not nerf militia tanks instead?.....hmmmmmmm..... because then you wont be stealth nerfing DROPSHIPS...that bastard child no one thinks of because hey... they are so squishy hardly anyone uses them, other then to suicide drop them onto roofs to plant uplinks....if they make it that far.

I think swarms need a range buff. maybe a very sleight damage buff, but i also think militia tanks are too good atm, maybe they need an EHP nerf or a fittings (CPU/PG) nerf, its up to CCP really :P

but don't be running to da forums with your shouty overly verbose screamy demands without thinking of the greater game balance..... puh-lease... because the last thing we need is for more stuff to get broken because people can't or won't use their heads!

apologies for the abusive rant :P... but go do your tests vs an Assault Dropship (hull costs 322k isk) before calling out for a stealth nerf :P

also: my tanks die to AV plenty... usually due to driver error but also when i have been played well with a 'bait and ambush', which i guess is driver error of a different sort :P ... if you can't kill a militia tank what hope do You have against a moderately skilled standard :P ......pfft single swarms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft

apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/


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Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 689	Posted - 2014.02.19 06:23:00 - [1] - Quote Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 690	Posted - 2014.02.19 06:40:00 - [2] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Video test of how much damage swarms do vs militia tanks. All militia tanks were as they come, nothing extra added. The Gunnlogi at the end was fitted with two basic hardeners and a complex heavy shield extender. Swarm user (ratamaq doc) had proficiency 3. 1st swarm launcher was a dren launcher with 1 basic damage mod. When he suicides, the second was proto swarm with 2 complex mods. 3rd swarm was proto swarm with no damage mods. I admit, I was wrong. Swarms do need a small buff to damage. I suggest this. Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. The Video. That video proves shield tanks need buffing It took the same shots for your swarms to kill a soma and the sica.... Remember, the swarm user has proficiency 3, and the second life had 2 complex mods. That greatly increases their power. As well, This was without using hardeners, which barely add any price to the tank, and would have drastically increased the number of swarms needed. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 691	Posted - 2014.02.19 08:03:00 - [3] - Quote The point was to see how much effort a swarm needed to do to destroy a tank, period. This wasn't theorycrafted on a calculator. This was actual footage of how many swarms were needed to kill a militia tank. The point is, even sitting there letting him blow me up, it still took 4-5 proto swarms to destroy me, even with his proficiency 3. That should not be. The point I had going in was that swarm damage was good at the proto level, but the problem was application of that damage. We discussed making swarms go as fast as missiles from tanks and installations, slowing tanks down, and other things about keeping the current damage, and changing other factors to make it harder for tanks to avoid swarms, and thus making it easier for swarms to kill tanks without directly buffing their damage. But as was shown, the prototype swarms, even with proficiency, and some with damage mods, still struggled to kill a tank THAT WAS NOT FIGHTING BACK AT ALL. I could have killed him at any time, but even offering no resistance, it took more than one magazine of proto swarms (with prof 3, don't forget that) to down my tank. That long reload gives me plenty of time to respond and take him out, and even if I fit nothing at all beyond what comes on the base militia tank, I still have a large chance of surviving the encounter, simply because he cannot put out enough damage. I think a small damage increase, or increasing the magazine size of swarms by 1 at each level, would do wonders to help them be a threat to tanks. Swarms should be able to kill a tank that offers no resistance in one magazine. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 691	Posted - 2014.02.19 08:04:00 - [4] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: As the others said the video doesn't really say much. Swarms need either more lock-on range or more damage. More lock-on range preferably. I'm thinking like 250 meters. The other problem with Swarms is the 50% damage increase from Standard to Proto. Such a huge damage increase will always mean that either Proto is OP or Standard is UP (right now Standard is UP, before 1.7 Proto was OP). It needs to be reduced to a 20% damage increase (like with the Forge). You do that by making ALL Swarms no matter tier or anything have the same amount of missiles per shot, and then increase the damage on each missile across the tiers. For example: Militia and Standard: 4 missiles of 280 damage, total 1120 damage. Advanced : 4 missiles of 308 damage, total 1232 damage (10% increase from Standard). Proto: 4 missiles of 336 damage, total 1344 damage (20% increase from Standard). This would balance them, instead of Standard being terribly UP right now. I said exactly that in the OP. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 702	Posted - 2014.02.19 18:11:00 - [5] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Make current proto swarms the new militia/basic swarms. All versions would shoot 6 missiles.Militia/basic would do 220 damage per missile. Advanced would do 235 per missile. Proto would be 250 per missile. That would be a massive buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launchers, giving them the same damage they had in 1.6. Considering that every player has access to Militia Swarms for free on the Starter AV suit, I think this is a serious problem. Also you are proposing a 44% buff to Militia/Basic Swarm Launcher damage while only giving the Proto Swarm Launcher a 12% damage buff. I personally prefer giving Swarm Launchers a 12% buff across the board (increasing missile damage from 220 to 250, but not changing the current missile counts), plus giving them a 12% range buff (increasing lock range from 175m to 200m.) I propose the changes because of how ridiculous the current damage scaling is on swarms. No other weapon, and I mean NO OTHER WEAPON, scales as heavily as swarms do. They go up by 220 damage a tier. The closest thing that does that is large railguns, which go up in damage by 218 a tier. As was shown in the video, under Ideal conditions, a standard swarm launcher took two magazines to kill an armor tank, which it has bonus damage to. I think the best demonstration was against my Gunnlogi at the end. With hardeners up, He couldn't down me period. This is as it should be. But when he sht me with my hardeners off, he took my entire shield off in 3 swarms. That's what should happen. I have my wave of opportunity when my hardener is up, where I can get in, do my job, and get out. His wave of opportunity begins when my hardener turns off, which is keeping me away while my cooldowns are running. The problem with tanks is they can bypass that cooldown by running multiple hardeners. That is unfair. One hardener per vehicle. Make all tiers of hardeners have the same uptime and cooldown. (caveat: armor and shield hardeners can be different from each other) Make base resistance increase among the tiers. for shields, 60% at standard, 80% at proto. A proto hardener should mean I can take on any AV that comes my way. But when that hardener turns off, AV should have a big window, on the order of 2-3 minutes, where they can easily drive me away/kill me. Also, Add in wp for damaging tanks enough to retreat. The infantry game is the keystone of Dust. In the end, what matters is capturing and holding objectives. Everything else[u] is in support of the infantry. A tank should be an asset the same as an orbital. It should be used for 30 seconds or whatever, and then cannot be used for 2-3 minutes without fear of losing it quickly. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 713	Posted - 2014.02.19 21:34:00 - [6] - Quote Billi Gene wrote: I'm sorry but i got thru two pages before i couldn't take it any more: there is a subtle but significant logic fail to the OP's suggestions. you want swarms buffed because militia tanks are too strong? why not nerf militia tanks instead?.....hmmmmmmm..... because then you wont be stealth nerfing DROPSHIPS...that bastard child no one thinks of because hey... they are so squishy hardly anyone uses them, other then to suicide drop them onto roofs to plant uplinks....if they make it that far. I think swarms need a range buff. maybe a very sleight damage buff, but i also think militia tanks are too good atm, maybe they need an EHP nerf or a fittings (CPU/PG) nerf, its up to CCP really :P but don't be running to da forums with your shouty overly verbose screamy demands without thinking of the greater game balance..... puh-lease... because the last thing we need is for more stuff to get broken because people can't or won't use their heads! apologies for the abusive rant :P... but go do your tests vs an Assault Dropship (hull costs 322k isk) before calling out for a stealth nerf :P also: my tanks die to AV plenty... usually due to driver error but also when i have been played well with a 'bait and ambush', which i guess is driver error of a different sort :P ... if you can't kill a militia tank what hope do You have against a moderately skilled standard :P ......pfft single swarms.... :P squad game nerfed because people refuse to use squad tactics...pfft apologies for second rant...O_o where did that come from =/ Since I usually fly dropships, I was against a damage buff as well. But the new numbers will not hurt dropships all that much, especially once hardeners and their speed are taken into account. Best PVE idea I've seen.
Alena Ventrallis The Neutral Zone 713	Posted - 2014.02.19 21:36:00 - [7] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: - Militia Swarms on the free starter suit are supposed to be supplementary damage. For a primary AV weapon you need to skill into them. It is not just Damage on the Forge Gun that scales up, the charge time scales with Operation skill as well. Have you tried killing a tank with a Militia Fodge Gun and no Operation skill? To be good at AV you need to invest skills in it. Otherwise you get the inverse of the current Militia Tank spam. They are not to be supplementary any more than the militia AR is supplementary to the Duvolle. It is merely a standard weapon which requires no skill to use and has a higher fitting cost. Best PVE idea I've seen.