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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
4702
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Posted - 2014.02.16 06:35:00 -
[181] - Quote
I came here to kick ass and chew bubble gum.
And I'm all out of ass. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
265
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Posted - 2014.02.16 08:11:00 -
[182] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Haha I'm just now reading the posts by the OP above my response. This is hilarious, forget everything I said about changing threads like these. It's far more entertaining to read this guy talk about how good he is.
The last two posts before mine are basically just "Come at me bro?!" in goofier phrasings.
The OP must've chosen to hide in a steel box all match to protect his ego from the enemy infantry. So choosing a different play style is hiding? That's news to me.
No, I'm just making fun of you for taking a video game so seriously and letting your ego get the best of you in the forums. The visualization of someone bragging about being good in a tank is just reminding me of a 12 year old in front of a laptop talking **** from the other side of the internet. |
Toby Flenderson
research lab
265
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Posted - 2014.02.16 08:34:00 -
[183] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:What gives tankers the right to decide the fate of infantry?
Because that's exactly what they're doing now. Practically every match comes down to who spams the most tanks. LOL That's in the game. I'm referring to infantry deciding how tanks are going to be fit, how many may be deployed, what turrets they can use, how much they cost, how many people it will require to use one, as well as now wanting the recall feature to be removed. What else did I miss? GǪOr how much damage they do, how fast they go, or how much health they haveGǪ I don't see how you see a difference between the effectiveness of tanks in practice and on the fittings screen. One is a direct consequence of the other. I also get the impression that you feel that opinions of non-tankers should be dismissed regarding tanks. This is like saying that no one who doesn't use the RR can justify claiming that it is OP. This mentality that you must be a part of the problem first in order to speak about the problem is ridiculous and I've noticed it appearing more and more. I suggest everyone just buy and use a MLT tank for one match and then return to this thread. At this point we may all move on past this "you're not even a tanker so you can't say they're OP" nonsense and we can reduce these threads to real arguments for/against tanks. Of course their opinions should be dismissed. They're not tanking now, and they weren't tanking before 1.7, and they sure as hell wouldn't've tanked while AV was ridiculously OP. They don't moonlight as a tanker, but I do moonlight as infantry. I know how infantry works. They don't know how tanks work. They don't know what it's like to lose 1.8mil ISK in a single death. They especially don't know what it's like to be a tanker in a PC match going against 3 tanks, 3 forge guns, and a guy with swarms, sometimes all at once. That equates to a dead tank in an instant. They sure had no problem destroying me. "Tanks can't do more damage than an AR, or move faster than a scout can sprint, or have more HP than a heavy, that's just not fair." It's a tank. It's supposed to be better than those. They're also SP-intensive, and require concentration, teamwork, knowledge of the battlefield, the vehicle's strengths and weaknesses, and your own strengths and weaknesses. I'd rather choose the thing that's harder to use. But there's going to be the people saying "I can use a tank just as effectively." Well no, you can't. You don't have the many months of experience that a lot of us do. You don't have the passive skills to make it better. You don't have access to the same modules and turrets that we do. That silly little Sica with MLT mods will go down real quick to my railgun. Hiding in the redline? I can keep you in check. I don't feel like I'm beating cheated when I can't destroy it, which is how AV feels.
^^^Haha what the hell is this? So people that don't use tanks as often or as well as you have no say. Right. Makes sense.
Except that you don't have to be an expert on a playstyle to recognize it is OP. If I see a 30 year old beating the **** out of a 10 year old, I'm allowed to think "boy that's unfair" regardless of whether or not I've been in a fight before. I can recognize that someone with a knife is at a disadvantage in an engagement against someone using a AR without having ever fired a weapon. I can see people in SL-proof MLT tanks spam hardeners and cheat death against any sort of AV currently in existence and say "hey that seems pretty OP" without having ever used a tank.
You seem to think that your experience makes your opinion not just more valuable to CCP but just simply overrule anyone else that hasn't used a tank as long as you have. If someone who has never played this game before watched one match be played I'd be surprised if they didn't notice that clearly tanks are the most dominant/game-changing force in this game. It doesn't take someone with a PHD in tanking like you to realize that it's just ridiculously OP.
I really don't see how my post left you with an opportunity to gloat about being good, but I guess I underestimated your ego yet again. |
HYENAKILLER X
Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION
600
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:20:00 -
[184] - Quote
Why do these people, for only 60k isk get to LITERALLY CONTROL AN ENTIRE GAME?
Most of these guys (with all due respect) are terribly average and hate being infantry due to difficulty fighting.............and then turn right around and exploit the hell out of tank/av.
As a loyal dust player there hasnt been one game with tanks where I wasnt entirely bored looking enemies,entirely frustrated from being on the "run/trapped/died" treadmill or gun shy when tank battles were taking place.
You guys dont like dust. Infantry likes dust. You guys just like having the upper hand.
What would ccp seriously have to ask you?
Tanks are for pussies.
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Kierkegaard Soren
Forsaken Immortals Top Men.
226
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:37:00 -
[185] - Quote
The only people CCP should be listening to from within the community are those that can look at the game with a proper sense of perspective, with equal weight given to both AV and vehicle play styles when expressing their opinions. Remember that when you're casting your vote for the next CPM's, fellow mercs.
Dedicated Commando.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." -Paul Atreides.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
501st Knights of Leanbox INTERGALACTIC WARPIGS
160
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Posted - 2014.02.16 10:42:00 -
[186] - Quote
so appernentl people where happy when HAV's were completly fckn underpowered for 6 months+ where a 2,5mill isk tank could be soloed by a single wykomi swarm on any suit was not underpowered. or just throwing 3 laidai packeds to kill any tank was not underpowered.
and now when they have to use teamwork to bring down tanks is too hard for them and wnat to solo them still.
how ever as a dedicated tanker i will sympathize it is too easy to spam tanks. mainly on the ratio of 4 millita tanks :1 std.
problem is it is too easy to use/operate vehicles nowdays as the actual skills for vehicles matter little to nothing. compared to 1.6 and befor. where a dedicated skilled up tanker COULD ACTUALLY AFFECT THE BATTLE AND TAKE AV. and becuase he had skilled into vehicles and thier ioperation could easly stomp and millita tank thrown at him. and at least to beat a std tank hands down. and was givin a challenge by a similary skilled user.
currently even as i have invested 20+ SP into vehicles it seems to be wasted due to how effective millita tanks are.
simply keep AV the way it is now and return tanks to 1.6 or chromosome build and then it will be balanced. AND REDO THE FCKN VEHICLE SKILL TREE SO SKILLS ARE ACTUALLY WORTH WHILE TO HAVE.
you like for each blaster skill i ahve i get 3% more damage and profeciency adds 2% more damage.
on a whole. put vehicles back the way they were befor 1.7 or 1.6 preferbly back to chromosome and keep AV from 1.7 and it will be balanced. |
Echo 1991
WarRavens League of Infamy
49
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Posted - 2014.02.16 10:56:00 -
[187] - Quote
KING CHECKMATE wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:This guy has no idea what balance is. Now, i've been using av for as long as i've been playing dust and i will happily admit av wasnt balanced at all. Tanks were food for swarms and it wasnt fair for tankers to pay out that much isk to get killed. Now the shoe is on the other foot. You got buffed tanks but you got ammo as a way to make tanks have a slight weakness but it is minimal. You now also have hardeners which makes tanks almost indestructable. Yet you get what you want because you moaned and cried that av was too strong and It got nerfed now infantry is doing the same thing with actual valid arguments and you think that they want tanks to be nerfed into the ground when actually they just want balance. Try use av with no sp invested into anything and see how you cope. I can do thd same in tanks an do quite well. Arent you void echo? Vice president of Biased Tankers A.S. ?
Nope, thats someone else. |
Lorhak Gannarsein
Science For Death
1693
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Posted - 2014.02.16 12:01:00 -
[188] - Quote
Swarms are UP, PLC is gimped and prenerfed, hardener stacking is OP re: infantry AV, damage mod stacking is OP re: DS.
Tanks are cheap and tiericided, so anyone can make a tank and do reasonably well. Leading to spam. UP swarms, previously the primary AV weapon of choice, no longer cut it and so spam continues unabated.
Is this a reasonable summary of current balance?
This has continued for two months now. Definitely some work needs to be done to restore the balance, but I'm pretty much okay with it for the meantime. We'll have our time in the sun, and hopefully CCP will do the sensible thing and balance gradually and carefully.
I don't remember too many infantry AV players complaining about how easy it was to destroy a tank. I see plenty of tankers complaining about how hard it is for infantry to destroy a tank now.
I think that's enough.
BTW Checkmate, what exactly would you consider as 'adapting'? I myself burned over 100M ISK trying out literally every possibly viable fitting pre 1.6 to continue playing my role into which ALL my SP had been sunk. 'Adapting' by changing my entire role and playstyle would have invalidated ~15M SP. It's not at all the same situation as now, where your core skills comfortably translate to the most effective current AV (that being forge guns).
Forge on for great justice!
Defend the meek! Destroy the weak!
Q-sync breaches into the rectum of everyone else!
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CrotchGrab 360
The Men In The Mirror
1455
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Posted - 2014.02.16 12:11:00 -
[189] - Quote
I'm glad to see sparker get slammed down in the firstp ost, 70 likes? wow.
Arkena is right though, every single game I play is just tanks, tanks, tanks.
Sometimes in Domination the enemy are so bad you don't even see them, sometimes you run straight to the redline, that's when the remaining bad players bring out tanks and become a nuisance for the rest of the game.
Gauranteed if 90% of the people I'm playing against in tanks were outside of the tanks they would get destroyed. It's a crutch for bad players, that's why they're being spammed.
I use them sometimes when I can't take being on the receiving end myself and need to claw back some ISK.
DUST VIDEOS
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
1979
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Posted - 2014.02.16 12:24:00 -
[190] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Toby Flenderson wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:What gives tankers the right to decide the fate of infantry?
Because that's exactly what they're doing now. Practically every match comes down to who spams the most tanks. LOL That's in the game. I'm referring to infantry deciding how tanks are going to be fit, how many may be deployed, what turrets they can use, how much they cost, how many people it will require to use one, as well as now wanting the recall feature to be removed. What else did I miss? GǪOr how much damage they do, how fast they go, or how much health they haveGǪ I don't see how you see a difference between the effectiveness of tanks in practice and on the fittings screen. One is a direct consequence of the other. I also get the impression that you feel that opinions of non-tankers should be dismissed regarding tanks. This is like saying that no one who doesn't use the RR can justify claiming that it is OP. This mentality that you must be a part of the problem first in order to speak about the problem is ridiculous and I've noticed it appearing more and more. I suggest everyone just buy and use a MLT tank for one match and then return to this thread. At this point we may all move on past this "you're not even a tanker so you can't say they're OP" nonsense and we can reduce these threads to real arguments for/against tanks. Of course their opinions should be dismissed. They're not tanking now, and they weren't tanking before 1.7, and they sure as hell wouldn't've tanked while AV was ridiculously OP. They don't moonlight as a tanker, but I do moonlight as infantry. I know how infantry works. They don't know how tanks work. They don't know what it's like to lose 1.8mil ISK in a single death. They especially don't know what it's like to be a tanker in a PC match going against 3 tanks, 3 forge guns, and a guy with swarms, sometimes all at once. That equates to a dead tank in an instant. They sure had no problem destroying me. "Tanks can't do more damage than an AR, or move faster than a scout can sprint, or have more HP than a heavy, that's just not fair." It's a tank. It's supposed to be better than those. They're also SP-intensive, and require concentration, teamwork, knowledge of the battlefield, the vehicle's strengths and weaknesses, and your own strengths and weaknesses. I'd rather choose the thing that's harder to use. But there's going to be the people saying "I can use a tank just as effectively." Well no, you can't. You don't have the many months of experience that a lot of us do. You don't have the passive skills to make it better. You don't have access to the same modules and turrets that we do. That silly little Sica with MLT mods will go down real quick to my railgun. Hiding in the redline? I can keep you in check. I don't feel like I'm beating cheated when I can't destroy it, which is how AV feels.
Aah the truth comes out. So how are people not moonlighting as tankers by using tanks.
How is it that YOU know everything there is to know about Infantry and Tanks? Jow can YOU do it but no-one else? How is it that other tankers like Jason Pearson for example who believe tanks are too powerful canbbe ignored by you? Its pretty plain to see Spkt, the only opinion you value is your's and as such you should/are ignored by the community.
Tanks aren't meant to be BETTER they are meant to be niche. They are designed to smash into a fortified position and cause the infantry to use AV to see you off, from their your friendly infantry can advance on the position under less fire. Your Job is not to partake in the mindless slaughter of infantry.
Its amazing what weaknesses are their to tank? Do you not think as infantry player you have to use strategy, cover for weaknesses, apply the right weapon to the right situation.
Tanker teamwork is when 1 guy brings a blaster and another brings a rail.
Spkr4thedead: Me > AV
This is why tanks are unbalanced
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
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NewOldMan
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2014.02.16 12:46:00 -
[191] - Quote
In my honest opinion tanks shouldn't be able to be able to be dropped by just 1 person running AV, (Maybe remote explosives if they planned the trap well) If the tanker is stupid, sure they deserve to die. But people complaining tanks are OP when in fact they are a bit more balanced than what they were before. Seems ehhh,
Previously we had useless tanks which were only really good at killing tanks, and getting locked out of the match by one guy in swarms keeping him behind cover. To the actual meaty tanks which require a team effort to take down.. I prefer tanks being a bit overpowered as guess what the ISK to RISK ratio is pretty good with a tank, risking millions for better results. For instance One Rifter can't kill a Deimos (1 million isk vs. 200 million unless the Deimos pilot is stupid or afk)
I do agree however that militia variants could use a downgrade but standard should be fine. |
Meee One
The dyst0pian Corporation Zero-Day
342
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Posted - 2014.02.16 13:15:00 -
[192] - Quote
The nerf of AV/vehicle prices was CCPs way to make up for players losing +1mill HAVs. The buff was for the same reason. CCP is done making up,so before prices skyrocket you may want to stock up. Balance is coming whether you want it or not.
Only users lose drugs.
Time wounds all heels.
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NewOldMan
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2014.02.16 13:17:00 -
[193] - Quote
Meee One wrote:The nerf of AV/vehicle prices was CCPs way to make up for players losing +1mill HAVs. The buff was for the same reason. CCP is done making up,so before prices skyrocket you may want to stock up. Balance is coming whether you want it or not.
A price hike would be a great balancer. Because it would also mean little work on CCP's part. |
Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
1979
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Posted - 2014.02.16 13:27:00 -
[194] - Quote
NewOldMan wrote:In my honest opinion tanks shouldn't be able to be able to be dropped by just 1 person running AV, (Maybe remote explosives if they planned the trap well) If the tanker is stupid, sure they deserve to die. But people complaining tanks are OP when in fact they are a bit more balanced than what they were before. Seems ehhh,
Previously we had useless tanks which were only really good at killing tanks, and getting locked out of the match by one guy in swarms keeping him behind cover. To the actual meaty tanks which require a team effort to take down.. I prefer tanks being a bit overpowered as guess what the ISK to RISK ratio is pretty good with a tank, risking millions for better results. For instance One Rifter can't kill a Deimos (1 million isk vs. 200 million unless the Deimos pilot is stupid or afk)
I do agree however that militia variants could use a downgrade but standard should be fine. Also they could do with some lower speed but in all fairness they should put out far more DPS than anything else on the field. That is what they are there for, fit railguns for anti tank and anti installation or a blaster for anti infantry.
But nobody should think that infantry should be the best at everything tanks are 2 trick ponies really meaty and great dps. With the downside of what should be slower and far more costly (my full proto suit costs at most 250K a fully fit tank costs 2 mil) ISK to RISK ratio is pretty good by those standards. And also by that if you were to just put isk into bodies it's 8 proto suits vs one tank.
1000 frigates can kill a Nyx though. It just takes coordination and a plan.
Yes but in EvE their is no Cap. If it took 3men to bring down a tank and there was no cap it would be fine, you could just bring 4 times aa much infantry. But you can't, we are 16v16 where matches are regularly filled to the brim. In these situations bringing a tank is mathematics, if it requires 3 men to kill me that's 3 mem not participating in the capping of the points.
That's 3 less men to fight on top of the infantry I have now slaughtered for them as well. This can shouldn't be relegated to maths.
Spkr4thedead: Me > AV
This is why tanks are unbalanced
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.
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NewOldMan
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2014.02.16 13:56:00 -
[195] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:NewOldMan wrote:In my honest opinion tanks shouldn't be able to be able to be dropped by just 1 person running AV, (Maybe remote explosives if they planned the trap well) If the tanker is stupid, sure they deserve to die. But people complaining tanks are OP when in fact they are a bit more balanced than what they were before. Seems ehhh,
Previously we had useless tanks which were only really good at killing tanks, and getting locked out of the match by one guy in swarms keeping him behind cover. To the actual meaty tanks which require a team effort to take down.. I prefer tanks being a bit overpowered as guess what the ISK to RISK ratio is pretty good with a tank, risking millions for better results. For instance One Rifter can't kill a Deimos (1 million isk vs. 200 million unless the Deimos pilot is stupid or afk)
I do agree however that militia variants could use a downgrade but standard should be fine. Also they could do with some lower speed but in all fairness they should put out far more DPS than anything else on the field. That is what they are there for, fit railguns for anti tank and anti installation or a blaster for anti infantry.
But nobody should think that infantry should be the best at everything tanks are 2 trick ponies really meaty and great dps. With the downside of what should be slower and far more costly (my full proto suit costs at most 250K a fully fit tank costs 2 mil) ISK to RISK ratio is pretty good by those standards. And also by that if you were to just put isk into bodies it's 8 proto suits vs one tank.
1000 frigates can kill a Nyx though. It just takes coordination and a plan. Yes but in EvE their is no Cap. If it took 3men to bring down a tank and there was no cap it would be fine, you could just bring 4 times aa much infantry. But you can't, we are 16v16 where matches are regularly filled to the brim. In these situations bringing a tank is mathematics, if it requires 3 men to kill me that's 3 mem not participating in the capping of the points. That's 3 less men to fight on top of the infantry I have now slaughtered for them as well. This can shouldn't be relegated to maths.
Then why dont you just bring a tank? EVE is this way too with Capital ships the winning strategy is bring n+. The halloween war was this way as well, with archons basically being your tanks and dominixes being your infantry. You had 300 archons holding off 1200 domis. And to CCP this was fair regardless of the numerous threads of people crying that archons were OP they had a right to be they were a capital ship. ( far more expensive)
To me the men killing the tank are participating in capping the point by not letting the tank kill the people capping. I know a lot of people claim "well if they are doing x then they aren't doing y" Well thats too bad. Form effective counters, and i'm not talking about throwing a bunch of militia swarms at it. Time your forge shots to hit at the same time, mine the crap out of roads, railgun tanks (only needs one person) There are ways to kill it effectively.
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HYENAKILLER X
Subsonic Synthesis RISE of LEGION
601
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Posted - 2014.02.16 14:42:00 -
[196] - Quote
Tanks first off have a 4 max per team cap.
Thats 8 players out of 32.
25% of a group with 4x's the amount of hp, speed and firepower. If you want/NEED 4x's the hp,firepower and speed you should have to pay minimum 4x's the isk for it. I have a proto suit that costs 150k. Do I cry if a 20k isk suit kills me? No I shut my mouth because that sht is embarrassing.
25% of the players spending less on tanks than suits and controlling entire games makes sense?
Tanks are for pussies.
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NewOldMan
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
61
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Posted - 2014.02.16 14:49:00 -
[197] - Quote
HYENAKILLER X wrote:
25% of the players spending less on tanks than suits and controlling entire games makes sense?
Then raise the price of militia tanks. |
Meeko Fent
Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State
1755
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Posted - 2014.02.16 16:08:00 -
[198] - Quote
Heathen Bastard wrote:Meeko Fent wrote:Because you guys aren't the ones getting ground into paste.
The Idea that Vehicle Users would suggest a proposal that isn't really quite biased towards them is stupid.
"Hey guys, We're thinking about nerfing your primary role, because you guys are wiping the floor with everything, what do you guys think we should do to make killing you easier?"
The Idea is to ask those afflicted by the issue what can be done to fix the problem, have the users of the role check the idea so it doesn't make the item UP, and then have the Devs test in the test version to what degree the issue becomes resolved using the variable to resolve the problem.
Saying that tanks should decide how to nerf tanks makes zero sense, and won't change anything Decide nerf, no. Get some type of input at all, yes. Yes, and you are.
I don't keep up on those threads, but I have no doubt that the devs are, and taking your input on how much the change needs to be.
Looking for a Interesting Character Name?
Why Not Zoidberg?
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OliX PRZESMIEWCA
Bezimienni...
10
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Posted - 2014.02.16 18:44:00 -
[199] - Quote
Simply If community don't want to get rid out tanks from ambush at least limit them to 2 max for each side. Sorry but it's unfair that good tanker can fit MLT with good blaster and have enaugh firepower to destroy everything using no more than 200k and few Loyality Points. You can keep spaming even 12 tanks on domi and skirmish I don't care because not many of U pilots hack points.
Please don't tell me that even in 1.6 lvl 1 av granades could kill vayu. It was impossible. But your 70k ****** MLT tank now is far more effective than my proto swarms on proto fit with high prof and stacked dmg modes. Fit for 180k isk.
Nerf MLT somehow. Maybe little decreased speed, turret speed and fire ratio.
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