DUST Search - Disallowing proto in pubs?

Leonid Tybalt wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

2100 Angel"h wrote:

lets all hold hands and play ring around the rosie, then make each other floral necklaces and braid each others hair No, new eden is supposed to be a harsh place. leave the protosuits where they are, no restrictive matches. If i'm happy to have my wallet drain money like a sieve I should be entitled to do so.

Public matches are in High Sec, dumbo, the only harshness you get in High Sec is subterfuge.
CONCORD makes sure of that.

That said maybe we should have low, null sec matches as well, null sec would be unrestricted, no matchamking, EvE sponsored landgrabs!

The only way I'd agree to this is high sec players are forced to wait longer for matches than players who opt to fight battles in null sec. This because high sec space is supposed to be more "stable" thanks to the prescence of concord and thus spontaneous planetary warfare shouldn't occur more often than spontaneous space battles do.

It would also be more in line with "high risk, high reward" since doing missions, ratting or mining in high sec space in eve has always been more time consuming than it is earning the same amount of isk in low sec or null sec space doing the same things.

Players who refuse to accept the dangers of running against proto users should never be able to earn as much isk as players who do in the same amount of time, regardless of how many warpoints they might earn in the matches.

Hence it would make sense for them to have to wait longer to find matches. Or getting a serious pay dump.

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Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. Public Disorder. 246	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:24:00 - [31] - Quote The problem is not protostomping it's that the jump from ACADAMY to EVERYTHING else is to steep. When you throw in ppl that are in militia gear against 30-40 Miljon sp players only one thing can happen. The great thing about eve is the security rating of the systems where new players can get into the game learn and have fun in 00 space then expand out when they are ready, however 00 space is not locked to them and that is AWSOME. In dust well you do 3-4 ACADAMY games ( if TOTALY new to the game ) then you are thrown into " 0,0 space " I have had friends that have tryed dust and they LOVE the ACADAMY but after a day or 2 in the other games they just ask me "Wy should I keep on doing this bull **** it's not fun" And that's the biggest problem this game has it's just not fun for new players. Al other issues like gun balance, tanks etc are not the problem in the long run, new player base is Regards War never changes
Oswald Rehnquist 1167	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:25:00 - [32] - Quote I disagree, and it doesn't solve the root problem, also coming from a guy who doesn't have sp into a single suit and still only runs bpos. TTK is so short that the difference between militia and proto is like a split second of difference, the main dividing factor is player skill and teamwork. Stomping will always occur with our current matchmaker system. To give an example when my fw squads (of randoms) want to do pubs to get isk, we run our cheap bpo/std suits to recuperate but the match is still a stomp regardless, often redlining them in the first 5 mins. And the reason we stomped was because we played with each other in harder fw matches so we have familiarity with each other, we are talking to each other, we asked for help to raise up our shortcomings, we coordinate attacks and are not afraid to sacrifice ourselves if it really gives us the upper hand (we can ask people to watch our back as we hack), etc. That's a lot of work for a non communicative group of randoms to deal with, we do fw 99% of the time but some in the group need isk so sometimes we'll do a few pubs like one day of the week for a couple of times, but the results are mostly the same as I described Below 28 dB
Storm Shelton Ethereal Horizon 20	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:26:00 - [33] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Use a adv weqpon Just as effective but alot cheaper Continue wasting isk Will do sir. You're saying its a bad idea? Well stick around. I'm full of bad ideas.
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 247	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:39:00 - [34] - Quote I would normally say no to this kind of thing, but we don't have the player base for tiered matches or proper matchmaking so, **** yes proto every thing should be undeployable in pubs.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 83	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:41:00 - [35] - Quote Storm Shelton wrote: NK Scout wrote: Use a adv weqpon Just as effective but alot cheaper Continue wasting isk Will do sir. Your fit is too expensive Use a adv weapon because proto gives a tiny increase for 7x the cost 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter militia frame, Templar set
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 247	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:44:00 - [36] - Quote oh and if the sentiment is against that then CCP needs to drastically increase the cost of proto gear, you shouldn't see proto come out every match all match long and yet that is exactly what you are seeing, hell most matches should be proto free.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 83	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:46:00 - [37] - Quote hgghyujh wrote: oh and if the sentiment is against that then CCP needs to drastically increase the cost of proto gear, you shouldn't see proto come out every match all match long and yet that is exactly what you are seeing, hell most matches should be proto free. Ugh, I bought 18 proto suits for 1 mil So expensive Cant imagine how scouts feel 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter militia frame, Templar set
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 180	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:51:00 - [38] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: I disagree. The game shouldn't be about limitations at every corner. It should allow you to use Proto all the time if you want. Limitations are the wrong way to go. Fixed matchmaking should fix that problem anyways. But we don't know when that comes. Agreed. A matchmaking fix can only come with higher player counts. Higher player counts only come with new player retention. Answer: Fix the academy and then grow fixes out from there once some forward progress is being made. One would think CCP wants this anyway to bring fresh money spending customers into the game but their actions would indicate that this logic has evaded them in most every form.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 2295	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:54:00 - [39] - Quote Mentioned this months ago Most common excuses were 'i earned my gear so i should be able to use it' and 'the playerbase is too small' Both are BS all you have is a basic room for skirm/domo in rotation so proto stompers can join the other rooms and those who want to use basic use this room Intelligence is OP
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 84	Posted - 2014.01.26 11:58:00 - [40] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: I disagree. The game shouldn't be about limitations at every corner. It should allow you to use Proto all the time if you want. Limitations are the wrong way to go. Fixed matchmaking should fix that problem anyways. But we don't know when that comes. Agreed. A matchmaking fix can only come with higher player counts. Higher player counts only come with new player retention. Answer: Fix the academy and then grow fixes out from there once some forward progress is being made. One would think CCP wants this anyway to bring fresh money spending customers into the game but their actions would indicate that this logic has evaded them in most every form. Make game slightly less grind Increase new player sp to 1 mil or 2 mil 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter militia frame, Templar set

Judge Rhadamanthus Amarr Templar One 1346	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:05:00 - [41] - Quote I think we have to consider the size of the player base to. We could balance it after matchmaking to allow for the smaller player base. Off the top of my head : 1) Scotty puts the best mix he can together based on queue size, squads etc. If a % of people on each team can run proto then any suit is allowed. If only one team has proto then it lowers the max tier allowed to advanced. What I am getting at is maybe some match balancing can be made after the teams are together rather than before. Or another top of the head idea : 2) If one side is determined to be better geared, or has more pre-made squads the calculation for battle payout changes, so the disadvantaged team gets a higher reward than usual, to compensate them for the likely loss of more suits. Everything Dropship youtube channel my Community Spotlight
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 180	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:06:00 - [42] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Make game slightly less grind Increase new player sp to 1 mil or 2 mil Their entire model is pay to grind less and I do not think this will be changing ever. Whatever the starting SP is it will all just go into AR and they will continue to get slaughtered because core skills and suits never got touched ( Good job on ZERO explanation of skills to newbs CCP but hey I guess "Train any skill for a reward" should be enough for them to spend days staring at the skill tree )
hgghyujh Expert Intervention Caldari State 247	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:10:00 - [43] - Quote NK Scout wrote: hgghyujh wrote: oh and if the sentiment is against that then CCP needs to drastically increase the cost of proto gear, you shouldn't see proto come out every match all match long and yet that is exactly what you are seeing, hell most matches should be proto free. Ugh, I bought 18 proto suits for 1 mil So expensive Cant imagine how scouts feel considering proto suits are the only suits we don't instadie in, yea...... still I would like to see fewer of them, there was a time you really wouldn't see people run more then one proto a match for that little bit of push, but that went out the window in the last couple builds, not sure if its PC, isk refunds, or cheaper proto, but its gotten kinda ridiculous.
NK Scout Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 86	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:10:00 - [44] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: NK Scout wrote: Make game slightly less grind Increase new player sp to 1 mil or 2 mil Their entire model is pay to grind less and I do not think this will be changing ever. Whatever the starting SP is it will all just go into AR and they will continue to get slaughtered because core skills and suits never got touched ( Good job on ZERO explanation of skills to newbs CCP but hey I guess "Train any skill for a reward" should be enough for them to spend days staring at the skill tree ) Its better than nothing, tutorial soon (tm) Also less grind as in less multiplyer, 8x to 7 or 6x, 6x to 5x 2 exiles assault rifles, Skinweave caldari frame, Staff recruiter militia frame, Templar set
Teilka Darkmist 76	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:19:00 - [45] - Quote CCP are still working on getting all the different racial gear into the game. Yes, you can argue that it should have been in at launch and I don't totally disagree. Of course that would have put off the release of the game by another year at least. Whilst I know I would have waited, I have a feeling that a lot of others wouldn't. Then they'd still have the problems of shoring up server stability when a full complement of players were online (something they still haven't solved in EVE 10 years on as the playerbase keeps growing and the technology keeps changing), they'd still have to do balancing, patching, fixing exploits and bugs that they didn't catch in development, alpha or beta (which happens with every game). They'd also have to keep working on adding new content to the game as that's what is expected of a game in the New Eden universe. Plus they'd have to keep dust current with what was going on in EVE. So maybe give the team a bit of a break, I'm pretty sure that they're working as fast as they can as if the game goes under, they'll likely all be out of a a job. Tiered matches may reduce protostomping, but it won't stop tankspam and it won't stop teamwork being more effective than a team each doing their own thing. It will also create teams of people who just stay in the lower tier matches with their skills maxed farming isk. So instead of some matches being protostomps, we'll end up with basic and advance being mostly unplayable due to the teams farming them. The nature of the game means that you will not ever stop one group of people stomping others.When the entire aim of the game is to beat the opposing team and you get rewarded for it, some will go to whatever lengths they can to win. My suggestion to CCP would be take your time so that you get it right, but bring out the rest of the gear, get the player market up and running (this will help more than most people think it will in my opinion) and get the Eve devs to support it by adding infantry gear BPO's and BPC's to Eve so they can start experimenting with production as soon as is practical . Then link the markets and let transfers of isk (and aurum, I have some I'm never going to use in Eve) from Eve to Dust and vice versa and adjust the isk reward of matches so that it relates to the market. Once the PvP game is solid, and the market is stable, then's the time to work on the PvE. Perhaps include in there some turtorial PvE which goes through each aspect of the game for the new players, before they get into the academy to try the PvP, throwing a player straight in to PvP so they have to learn how to play whilst also under fire from other players is somewhat akin to throwing new players into space with just their starter ship and no instruction on how to do anything. Those are just my ideas though. I'm sure that there are plenty of people here on the forums who will disagree. When I play as a sniper, I'm more likely to be nearer to the opponents redline than my own.
deezy dabest Warpoint Sharx 180	Posted - 2014.01.26 12:24:00 - [46] - Quote NK Scout wrote: Its better than nothing, tutorial soon (tm) Also less grind as in less multiplier, 8x to 7 or 6x, 6x to 5x Less multiplier could help but still threatens the money making side of Dust. The biggest problem right now is the new players being tossed from the academy. I have recently had my desire to yell about this refueled after making alts for peoples recruiter links and listening to what happens with new players as they traverse their first day in New Eden. One minute they are happily shooting and being shot at and very soon after they are either utterly silent, horribly cursing their opponent who just melted them with a duvolle, or just gone. I saw this as well with the 20 or so people I brought to the game a few months after I joined. I challenge you to make an alt and go through 6-8 academy matches making zero points until you have recruited a full squad of eager young dust bunnies and then bring them into our world out side of the academy once they are all close to being booted from the academy anyway. Unless you like listening to frustration the results of this experiment will make you choose whatever causes this in your opinion and warrior up on it as well.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 296	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:03:00 - [47] - Quote lets all hold hands and play ring around the rosie, then make each other floral necklaces and braid each others hair! No, new eden is supposed to be a harsh place. leave the protosuits where they are, no restrictive matches. If i'm happy to have my wallet drain money like a sieve I should be entitled to do so.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1657	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:08:00 - [48] - Quote Disagree 1) Just because you are in proto doesn't meam you will own face 2) These people spent time and Isk to afford use of the suit, their is no reason why they can't. 3) If we had a performance based matchmaking system on public matches it wouldn't be a problem. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 4192	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:09:00 - [49] - Quote Yes and no. Yes: improved NPE is good, more players like myself not running proto to counter other proto players. No: PC isn't constant, making the areas where you can proto minimal, this punishes those who worked their asses off to get their gear, especially those who did so as closed beta vets. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 4 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1657	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:10:00 - [50] - Quote 2100 Angels wrote: lets all hold hands and play ring around the rosie, then make each other floral necklaces and braid each others hair! No, new eden is supposed to be a harsh place. leave the protosuits where they are, no restrictive matches. If i'm happy to have my wallet drain money like a sieve I should be entitled to do so. Public matches are in High Sec, dumbo, the only harshness you get in High Sec is subterfuge. CONCORD makes sure of that. That said maybe we should have low, null sec matches as well, null sec would be unrestricted, no matchamking, EvE sponsored landgrabs! Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1

Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 197	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:20:00 - [51] - Quote Disagree. Proto suits are expensive. You risk losing a lot more isk whenever you die in one than you do running a std or adv suit, and the std and adv suits are still perfectly capable of killing the proto suit. An expensive suit should be more useful and deadly in it's own than a less expensive suit. Otherwise, whats the point of paying more if they're pretty much equal?
R F Gyro Clones 4u 1091	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:26:00 - [52] - Quote TechMechMeds wrote: Although guilty of proto stomping in the past, I have seen the light as it were. Who agrees, who disagrees and why. I disagree. Better matchmaking is all that is required, and would have the benefit that a really good player in a militia suit and a novice in a proto suit can still fight each other. The challenge, of course, is how to implement better matchmaking. My choice would be contract matching, but there are plenty of other ideas out there. RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
Leonid Tybalt Dark Knightz Corp. 197	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:30:00 - [53] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: 2100 Angel"h wrote: lets all hold hands and play ring around the rosie, then make each other floral necklaces and braid each others hair No, new eden is supposed to be a harsh place. leave the protosuits where they are, no restrictive matches. If i'm happy to have my wallet drain money like a sieve I should be entitled to do so. Public matches are in High Sec, dumbo, the only harshness you get in High Sec is subterfuge. CONCORD makes sure of that. That said maybe we should have low, null sec matches as well, null sec would be unrestricted, no matchamking, EvE sponsored landgrabs! The only way I'd agree to this is high sec players are forced to wait longer for matches than players who opt to fight battles in null sec. This because high sec space is supposed to be more "stable" thanks to the prescence of concord and thus spontaneous planetary warfare shouldn't occur more often than spontaneous space battles do. It would also be more in line with "high risk, high reward" since doing missions, ratting or mining in high sec space in eve has always been more time consuming than it is earning the same amount of isk in low sec or null sec space doing the same things. Players who refuse to accept the dangers of running against proto users should never be able to earn as much isk as players who do in the same amount of time, regardless of how many warpoints they might earn in the matches. Hence it would make sense for them to have to wait longer to find matches. Or getting a serious pay dump.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 967	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:32:00 - [54] - Quote Judge Rhadamanthus wrote: I think we have to consider the size of the player base too. We could balance it after matchmaking to allow for the smaller player base. Off the top of my head : 1) Scotty puts the best mix he can together based on queue size, squads etc. If a % of people on each team can run proto then any suit is allowed. If only one team has proto then it lowers the max tier allowed to advanced. What I am getting at is maybe some match balancing can be made after the teams are together rather than before. Or another top of the head idea : 2) If one side is determined to be better geared, or has more pre-made squads the calculation for battle payout changes, so the disadvantaged team gets a higher reward than usual, to compensate them for the likely loss of more suits. 3) Build teams based not on gear or SP but on performance in the last 4 games. I have proto but rarely run it outside of PC, I have many SP but it is in a class that has less effectiveness than the same SP in another class. Look at my last few games kills and WP to decide my skill. Put my in a battle based on that. Automated matchmaking in a sandbox universe with imposed limits. We need difficulty levels in with risk versus reward scenario's the players can choose for them self's. No matter what tools you give a new player to couple month old player, they shouldn't be going up against a player that has been playing for a year, they will always get wrecked. Regardless corporations where supposed to be saving to buy a giant flying warbarge, and then mercenaries in said corporations where to save and buy quarters on the Warbarge. Build trophy rooms, have hang out area's.. Spend time flying it to different places on planets and fighting for it. Then spending time grinding and building infrastructure on the planet districts we conquered. Video of the Old warbarge. PC was supposed to take up a lot of everyone's time. Public matches where only for a ISk and possible SP grind when not participating in what DUST was actually about. RPS: How do you have persistence in a match-based game? CCP Wolfman wrote: Thomas: We have, much like EVE GÇô in fact exactly like EVE! GÇô we have different security levels. We have high security, low security, and nulsec, where anything goes. And thatGÇÖs where weGÇÖre pretty much hands off. When youGÇÖre in highsec we have NPC generated battles, so youGÇÖll always be able to find a battle, youGÇÖre able to grind and get money, but without being exposed to the depth building an infrastructure on the surface of planets, things like that. But then as you play through into the lower levels of security it starts to be about: okay, IGÇÖve got the hang of the game, IGÇÖve got a group of friends, weGÇÖve formed a corporation, and weGÇÖve got backing from some EVE members for the corporation, so weGÇÖre going to hire a war barge, weGÇÖre going to load it up with supplies, and weGÇÖre going to try to attack this location. WeGÇÖre going to get our first foothold on a planet. And that is all scheduled and controlled. Those matches are planned, and the defenders are warned in advance so they have the opportunity to defend. Once you get into that kind of game youGÇÖre making a larger commitment in terms of time to be able to defend your things. And so the more you invest, the more commitment you have to have to protect whatGÇÖs yours. But thereGÇÖs always matches rolling in highsec. From 2011
Kira Halycon Science For Death 10	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:39:00 - [55] - Quote Complex plates, even on advanced suits with many low slots means that snipers are little more than an annoyance, unless the high damage riles are available. Better Matchmaking Better Scotty matchmaking would help, more sifting of suit and skills than we are currently seeing. Better Match Start Sync The other thing that would help is syncing the start of the match - both sides should start within 10 seconds of each other, not 1 minute or more apart. Presently, often you enter a match now to find that the other side has established itself for a minute, already got vehicles and uplinks in and its a losing game from there.
Monkey MAC Lost Millennium 1657	Posted - 2014.01.26 13:57:00 - [56] - Quote Leonid Tybalt wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: 2100 Angel"h wrote: lets all hold hands and play ring around the rosie, then make each other floral necklaces and braid each others hair No, new eden is supposed to be a harsh place. leave the protosuits where they are, no restrictive matches. If i'm happy to have my wallet drain money like a sieve I should be entitled to do so. Public matches are in High Sec, dumbo, the only harshness you get in High Sec is subterfuge. CONCORD makes sure of that. That said maybe we should have low, null sec matches as well, null sec would be unrestricted, no matchamking, EvE sponsored landgrabs! The only way I'd agree to this is high sec players are forced to wait longer for matches than players who opt to fight battles in null sec. This because high sec space is supposed to be more "stable" thanks to the prescence of concord and thus spontaneous planetary warfare shouldn't occur more often than spontaneous space battles do. It would also be more in line with "high risk, high reward" since doing missions, ratting or mining in high sec space in eve has always been more time consuming than it is earning the same amount of isk in low sec or null sec space doing the same things. Players who refuse to accept the dangers of running against proto users should never be able to earn as much isk as players who do in the same amount of time, regardless of how many warpoints they might earn in the matches. Hence it would make sense for them to have to wait longer to find matches. Or getting a serious pay dump. Well as it stands we conduct Pub matches in high security space with no form of matchmaking at all, so what we do is move that exactly asmit is over to null sec. High sec matchmaking won't mean that you won't ever come across proto suits, but the people wearing those suits will have a similar skill level to you. So you will still likely see all tiers of suits but you will be less likely to have tonnes of useless blueberries against full proto l33t squad, instead blueberries will be matched with blueberries. Then just give a pay and sp rise incentive for null sec pubs and voila, proto groups can do what they want in null sec, new players don't get stomped andmif your having a bad daygo back to high sec space for battles. Tanks 514 I told you, I bloody well told you. Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl.1
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2441	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:29:00 - [57] - Quote Cool. I Tech do solemnly declare that I shall go back to running pure proto and that my corp mates must do so as well. I will not take mercy on the blue berries, I shall dispense my wrath with my amarr logi, cal assault and min assault, all at proto, so help me dust. Nuff isk. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Fire of Prometheus Alpha Response Command 3183	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:33:00 - [58] - Quote As much as I agree, I have no other place to use proto commando atm :/ Of course there's FW, but there I have no way of breaking even in no match cause everyone pub stomps against amarr Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // C.E.O of Alpha Response Command A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando?
TechMechMeds Swamp Tempo Canis Eliminatus Operatives 2441	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:34:00 - [59] - Quote And so it was written, on this day of our pwnage 26/1/2014, engraved on the holy chalice that is the forums. Democratically discussed and with great consideration. Fk those bches and farm that sht. Level 2 forum warrior. Swamp iz on dat welevant flex fam I sold my family to the Amarr for isk, its a valid tactic
Beld Errmon The Southern Legion 1265	Posted - 2014.01.26 19:57:00 - [60] - Quote Its not the gear thats stomping ppl its the squads of players that know what they are doing and multiply each others affect on the battlefield, the best players in std gear are still the best players the difference is a handful of HP and a few extra points of damage per bullet. If you want pub matches to be more fun you need to hit CCP up on their match makers distribution of squads, or look at limiting the squads in pub matches.



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