No doubt there is going to be a need for a balancing pass not long after 1.8, but I'm thinking more along the lines that they are evening out the slot counts in each class of suit and adjusting things to be more in line with eve (e.g., Amarr now getting more armor than Gallente) racial philosophies. I guess one way to think about it is that the placeholders are now gone, so to not have a big overhaul is virtually impossible.

One of the dark realities of design is that most ideas are usually pretty bad. When people have been brainstorming for a while... pretty much any idea can begin to sound really good, until someone else enters the room and says "That's just freaking terrible.... Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. - But if you changed them like X, they could be good!" That person entering the room is going to be you as a CPM bro. And the sad truth is.... The people in the room are probably not going to listen to you nearly as often as you think, despite how obvious the flaws in their ideas may seem.

Welcome to the assault suits in 1.5/1.6.

Take your extra slots and stop whining. DPS buff? Please link. Even if it does get buffed, TTK will still be increased so not really a good argument on your end.

TTK is going to increase https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1714234#post1714234

Well put, cross. No debate there, 1.8 should have been 1.0, but since they broke the core mechanics of the game, here we are, what, 6-8 months later?

Ultimately that's the problem, these are growing pains we should have gone through a long time ago but didn't. At this point we really have no choice but to go through them and come out the other side with the best game we can.

Also, we don't know that they are taking slots away from the logi suits, it's all speculation right now. They may be adding slots to the assaults, or they may keep the slots the same but decrease the CPU/PG of the suits commensurate to the new bonus such that you can still make a proper support logi fitting but not a killer bee. That's one solution myself and others had suggested as an alternative to the terribad sidearm only nonsense that was floating around a month or so ago.

IMO, that's the ideal solution to this whole logi-assault "war". The self-reps could have stayed, and If you make a big time reduction to equipment fit costs and drop the fitting power of the suits just the right amount (I know, CCP), the ability to make a "real" logistics fitting remains unchanged - I could make the same or better fitting I do now as a support-minded player, but if I were to put all my slots into offense, it wouldn't be as good as it can be now.

EDIT: you snuck another one in there before I could reply.

Welcome to the assault suits in 1.5/1.6.

Take your extra slots and stop whining. DPS buff? Please link. Even if it does get buffed, TTK will still be increased so not really a good argument on your end.

TTK is going to increase https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1714234#post1714234

Well put, cross. No debate there, 1.8 should have been 1.0, but since they broke the core mechanics of the game, here we are, what, 6-8 months later?

Ultimately that's the problem, these are growing pains we should have gone through a long time ago but didn't. At this point we really have no choice but to go through them and come out the other side with the best game we can.

Also, we don't know that they are taking slots away from the logi suits, it's all speculation right now. They may be adding slots to the assaults, or they may keep the slots the same but decrease the CPU/PG of the suits commensurate to the new bonus such that you can still make a proper support logi fitting but not a killer bee. That's one solution myself and others had suggested as an alternative to the terribad sidearm only nonsense that was floating around a month or so ago.

IMO, that's the ideal solution to this whole logi-assault "war". The self-reps could have stayed, and If you make a big time reduction to equipment fit costs and drop the fitting power of the suits just the right amount (I know, CCP), the ability to make a "real" logistics fitting remains unchanged - I could make the same or better fitting I do now as a support-minded player, but if I were to put all my slots into offense, it wouldn't be as good as it can be now.

EDIT: you snuck another one in there before I could reply.

Defo, iv been logi for just over a year now. I'm not bothered, I'll slap on a reactive plate. Meh

That's entirely fair and I won't dispute it at all.
That being said I'd still favor a granulated implementation for the sake of proper vetting over a ground up overhaul that will put increased strain on the NPE, the meta game, and frankly the QA teams, before the dust settles and we've started to ferret out all the new bugs and exploits that are virtually inevitable with so much changed all at once. At the minimum holding of on changing things that directly impact eHP until TTK has been fine tuned to meet the threshold CCP wants it at.


While I agree the assaults need some love I've spent months on these forums asking for fittings examples that, sans racial skill buffs, put a "killer bee" above it's racial assault, and I've yet to see one. With the skill bonus included the old CalLogi surly met that mark but no where in that is the whole role let alone suit layout indited by the facts. In current game state the substantive difference between the suits in the medium line is that the logistics have lower base stats in exchange for more fittings flex. This can be used to good effect no question but it also requires a higher SP investment and a higher ISK cost to field as you're fitting more mods per load out than on the assault. It also means that various general skill buff effects provide less for the logistics frame than they give to the assault because the base values of the assault are higher (fittings skills are the notable exception to this trend).

Bluntly put, I've only seen information to support the idea that the assault suits need better racial skill buffs (and maybe a better role bonus so it's not lopsided towards some races). I have yet to see any solid or compelling evidence which supports the contention that any further changes to the medium suit line are called for. I've seen volumes of hyperbole but no meaningful evidence and yet we're still looking at some massive changes and I'm still not hearing any clear and direct statements from CCP regarding why, that combination of massive change and general silence is something I find much less than ideal.


Something like you propose above would be a good sight better as a way to solve the contention. I'm still of a mind that the changes should be almost exclusively to the assault side of the medium line with the only real change to the logistics frames being a minimum two equipment slots filled before the load out is considered valid for deployment. Those two aspects together should do the trick, and if not the values could be fiddled with lightly to find the right balance.
I am honestly still baffled (not directed at you btw) at how often this subject is addressed in a way that completely glosses over the cost aspect of the cost v benefit dynamic, it is rather rare that posters proclaiming this "problem" to be in dire need of redress actually provide comparative SP and ISK investment costs to support their stance. And really if "you pay more ISK to get more effect" isn't the intended foundation of gear balance in Dust then what is? Without the cost aspect clearly included the argument might as well be "proto gear is better than my militia gear, that's not balanced, nerf it" which, while I've seen those posts too, would only serve to flatten the game play and reduce the sandbox excessively.

Cheers,
Cross

PS ~ I'd just like to take a moment here to thank you for keeping the discussion constructive and hostility free, it's appreciated mate

You're welcome. Just like I only snipe red snipers, I only troll other trolls (usually).

Seriously though, the cost of logi stuff is no joke, but there are two problems with using that argument here. One, killer bees aren't using much equipment by definition. Second, the economy is so broken with all the ISK farmers in PC right now that Nyain San can afford to run their maxed out logi gk.0s and lose 10 madrugars a game forever. (I've personally killed 4 of their tanks in one match, with my team killing a total of 11, they didn't bat an eye, just kept spamming us into the Stone Age).

As for the actual fittings, the only real problem arose once brick tanking became the best fit. Just like with all those losers who started running heavy suits with their duvolles, you can tank a Gallente logi pretty hard, stack damage mods in the highs and put in a scanner and compact hive and voila, the Nyain San Standard Protostomping Suit.

I logi most of the time, this is not much of am issue for me, it's usually live or die when I lose my armor, repping isn't that important, if I find it becomes an issue I don't think losing an armor slot or carrying triage hives is a huge sacrifice if in exchange I get to carry better equipment.

I'd like to pop my head back in and say, someone seriously thought I was trolling in my earlier posts? That's the problem with criticisms everyone takes it so personally. I was a logi, am a logi and will be a logi in 1.8. I have had to adjust my play several times since I picked up the game 18 months ago, but that's all it is is an adjustment. I take these changes with a grain of salt and will continue to do what I do. More people should be less ruffled by these things.

*wipes swear from his brow* Good lord....

Those are accurate observations, however they're not direct inditements of the logistics suit or support load outs which means that the problems aren't centered there and thus best solutions won't be either. "Killer bees" aren't shouldering the same burden in fittings, SP, or ISK that a support player is so if the "fix" to mechanics is such that the logistics frames/load outs are nerfed to the point where bees aren't considered a problem anymore then it's guaranteed the actual support players have just been gimped. Hence why I'm so amendment other methods need to be employed, such as giving the assault suits solid enough skill buffs et al to make them a more attractive choice and requiring 1-2 pieces of equipment be part of each logi fit. These may not solve everything but they're smaller more precise steps which improve on the situation and can be fine tuned to address the situation as things develop, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it were.

As to the ISK faucet, well that's clearly a problem with PC and needs to be addressed but we can't simply dismiss the comparative value of ISK throughout the game because of it or we've just eliminated a key aspect of the risk v reward aspect of dust. It would be the same if someone were able to exploit for limitless SP, that exploit would need fixed, not the SP system ignored/scrapped, see what I'm saying? I don't think there's much of a case to be made for the current iteration of PC being balanced and in a good place, but that's PC balance not medium frame balance.


/nods
I can see your point here, however the proposed changes effect the GalLogi suit, and that fit specifically, least out of the field.
Barring changes to the actual suit layout (since my comments have been focused on the skill changes) the net effect on that type of fit will be; a bit less buffer, the same reps, the same dps, and better scans/more WP from scans.
Unlike the rest of the logi frames who are effectively trading 5/HPs for -25% fittings cost on equipment, the GalLogi is trading that 5/HPs for better scans because it already has the discount at present.

Snip

So as it stands the changes on balance put more of a burden on support players than "killer bees" and do so in a way that only minimally addresses the specific example(s), while also not addressing the issues present in damage mods, PC ISK flow, or providing the Assault suit a solid value (just nerfing the logi suit until it's weaker than the assault doesn't mean the assault is now valuable, it simply means the whole medium frame line is now weaker compared to both light and heavy).

Simply put the problem doesn't seem very specifically assessed and what assessment there is doesn't point to the proposed changes being an effective meaningful fix for the issues raised, the changes will however make playing support harder, and more costly for all new players and non-ISK farmers. All in all that seems to me to be a pretty bad call, unless there's new information which I'm still missing.

Cheers,
Cross

I did mention damage mods but I probably should not have because I don't think they are actually a problem, they are more of a convenient bogeyman that people can point at without actually having to give any real thought to the issue like we are here.

I don't want to downplay the 25% reduction to equipment, because as an Amarr logi I have to make compromises I don't necessarily want to. Yes, I have my gun out way more than my rep tool, but I'm Amarr, that's what I do, even as a logi. (My KDR still sux, don't worry about that, lol). But, I'm forced to use a minmatar weapon (the CR) to save fitting costs. I'm hopeful I won't have to do that anymore.

Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is that I'm reserving judgement until we actually see the patch notes or at least more details on slot layouts. Overall I like the direction things are going so I'm gonna wait for more information and give feedback when it's available.

You now get an advantage to equipment PG/CPU, meaning it will be easier to fit that repping hive or an actual repping mod. You may not need that CPU mod to fit all those gadgets/mods.

You also get an advantage to a specific equipment, it doesn't mean any equipment will be any less effective that it is now.

You're going to have to rethink your role as a logi, it's no longer the best suit in the game. If you would rather run the most survivable suit with equipment you can run a commando. Or if you want more flexibility you can run a scout. Or if you'd rather focus on killing and lightly dabble in repping, reviving, or resupplying just go Assault.

The logistics suit will still be the best suit for helping your team/squad. It never should have been the most versatile and best suit in the game. That was a failure by CCP, we've got to make things right.

You don't need personal reps.

Your job is to rep other players.