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Cross Atu
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Posted - 2014.01.20 23:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:I've said this before but the new bonuses do not actually balance anything. Having an equipment specific (reptard tool, scanner etc) just says that people who picked a suit for the ability to fit all equipment need to actually use the piece of equipment to gain the bonus. It also means that this will theoretically unbalance WP payouts as the Intel Kill Assist a Gallente Suit will earn wil be lower than the bonus for Triage of a Minmatar Logi. Also it means that a Minmatar Logi will actually earn less WP due to an increased rep rate. This is not a balance pass it is a nerf pass and should be rethought.
+1
What I've seen of the new suit related skill bonuses shows a trend more of sweeping changes than of fine tuning balance.
It's hard to say without numbers but the primarily impression so far, if it holds, indicates these changes will be an outright nerf for players who truly adopt a support role. Logistics suits without the change are already slower, have lower eHP, are bright yellow, and are the least likely to receive support (due to their role) they also tend to be on balance more ISK/SP intensive to field a loadout with roughly equivalent stats.
Assault suits needed some love, Logistics suits did not need what amounts to a nerf - certainly not while other changes in the game have diminished the average TTK.
I would very much like to see numbers from CCP regarding the comparative risk vs reward value of medium frames with the new skills applied. Maybe there's a factor (or two) in there which I've overlooked or don't have access too, but so far the changes don't seem to result in a solid, or frankly even an improved, risk vs reward balance between medium frame loadouts and unless there is a clear improvement to the risk vs reward balance of those possible fits I can't help but think this is not an improvement or benefit to balance or game quality.
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PS ~ If there are numbers which contradict my assessment please do link them. I'd be more than happy to see solid information which proves my current perception to be incomplete/in error.
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Posted - 2014.01.21 08:10:00 -
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John Demonsbane wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Draco Cerberus wrote:I've said this before but the new bonuses do not actually balance anything. Having an equipment specific (reptard tool, scanner etc) just says that people who picked a suit for the ability to fit all equipment need to actually use the piece of equipment to gain the bonus. It also means that this will theoretically unbalance WP payouts as the Intel Kill Assist a Gallente Suit will earn wil be lower than the bonus for Triage of a Minmatar Logi. Also it means that a Minmatar Logi will actually earn less WP due to an increased rep rate. This is not a balance pass it is a nerf pass and should be rethought.
+1 What I've seen of the new suit related skill bonuses shows a trend more of sweeping changes than of fine tuning balance. It's hard to say without numbers but the primary impression so far, if it holds, indicates these changes will be an outright nerf for players who truly adopt a support role. Logistics suits without the change are already slower, have lower eHP, are bright yellow, and are the least likely to receive support (due to their role) they also tend to be on balance more ISK/SP intensive to field a loadout with roughly equivalent stats (to their racial medium frame counterpart). Assault suits needed some love, especially with regards to some of their skill bonuses (I've been saying this for quite awhile), Logistics suits did not need what amounts to a nerf - certainly not while other changes in the game have diminished the average TTK. Certainly not a nerf that will hamper player innovation and choice by binding optimal equipment use to racial type while making them even more fragile. Further the changes to the logi don't really discourage the creation of non-support fits based on the logi frame, combine a skill bonus to hives with repper hives and you've got something useful for an assault based logi suit, but that same suit is less effective for a support logi who aren't supposed to be on point and who frequently are moving with their squad rather than at their own mandate. I would very much like to see numbers from CCP regarding the comparative risk vs reward value of medium frames with the new skills applied. Maybe there's a factor (or two) in there which I've overlooked or don't have access too, but so far the changes don't seem to result in a solid, or frankly even an improved, risk vs reward balance between medium frame loadouts and unless there is a clear improvement to the risk vs reward balance of those possible fits I can't help but think this is not an improvement or benefit to balance or game quality. 0.02 ISK Cross PS ~ If there are numbers which contradict my assessment please do link them. I'd be more than happy to see solid information which proves my current perception to be incomplete/in error. Thing is, I wouldn't be too surprised if the base stats for the suits and possibly the slot layouts are also being changed so it's a little premature to say. I do think the self-rep reinforced the defensive role of the class, tbh that's not where the problem lie comparing logi to assault suits but since there is an apparent big time overhaul of the suits across the board we really don't know what logi suits are going to look like at all.
That is, in some ways, much worse.
One of the major problems Dust has seen is a continuing pattern of patches/builds with sweeping changes rather than granulated turning. Are sweeping changes sometimes called for especially early in the cycle? Sure. But what is a solid choice for closed beta and what's sound months after live release aren't one and the same.
Changes that are so massive in scope and implication that the community cannot even comment on them until post release is poor form requiring ever greater amounts of ISK and SP just to make the most basic assessment of a given loadout as compared to it's peers in frame size, race, etc.
I find it dubious that such sweeping changes can be verified as both required and positive. How, for example, can we even directly compare the merits of suits or fits in their own context when their contexts are so much of a departure from each other? How does a player, especially a new player, find, maintain, and refine, a chosen play style with such upheaval as the norm? A solid foundation is vital not only to the NPE but to Dust in general, refining and expanding the game and content is truly positive but it should be the meta that undergoes broad changes as the players alter their behavior in the sandbox, it should not be the sandbox being functionally upended every few months.
In my time playing dust since closed I have still yet to see a compelling case for there being a problem between the suits in the medium line. The racial skill buffs need some work and perhaps a touch up for the assault role bonus but none of that requires an alteration to the suit nor the removal of self reps from support, especially to be replaced by what (at least in current context) is the weakest of the logi skill buffs. At current values the equipment reduction effect distorts suit parity within the logi line, favoring races with more equip slots, and depending on fit can often fail to even provide as much PG/CPU savings as the equivalent value(s) of the skill(s) it's replacing.
I'm not omniscient, I don't even have the information access of the CPM, I could be wrong, but the literal truth is that I've seen nothing which shows me these changes are either balanced or beneficial. Honestly I haven't even seen a clear vision statement regarding how they support/define on field roles.
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Posted - 2014.01.21 19:00:00 -
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John Demonsbane wrote:No doubt there is going to be a need for a balancing pass not long after 1.8, but I'm thinking more along the lines that they are evening out the slot counts in each class of suit and adjusting things to be more in line with eve (e.g., Amarr now getting more armor than Gallente) racial philosophies. I guess one way to think about it is that the placeholders are now gone, so to not have a big overhaul is virtually impossible.
If that's the case the results may ultimately be positive, as EVE has been refining things for quite awhile and using some of that long time work as a frame for Dust could be of value. I feel compelled to add however that such massive overhauls should have been initiated before live release or at bare minimum clearly signaled in a simple direct statement from CCP regarding this issue, a statement released during beta and linked in the more current releases so that everyone can stay up to speed.
Even with that presumption in place the alteration of the skill buffs seems to have been handled in a less than ideal way, a self repping skill is not a valid place holder for an equipment fittings cost reduction skill, especially one that at first blush isn't even effectively balanced with either the "place holder" self rep skill or within the logistics frames.
Beyond that reducing slot count is in general something I opposed because it's reducing player choice and innovation. If the slot layout of the assault suit needs more parity with the slots of the logistics suit to maintain medium frame balance that's fine, but you can add slots to the assault rather than taking them from logistics and if the assault suit with more slots is broken simply trim it's base stats a bit to bring it back in line. Maintaining flexibility in possible load outs and thus a diverse and open sandbox is a much healthier choice for Dust than what amounts to hard coding specific roles, or even sub-roles (in the case of the new equipment bonuses) onto our rather limited frame offerings. In EVE there are admittedly some very specialized hulls and skill buffs that go along with them, but there are far more size classifications and hull types in EVE so that implementation is no where near as limiting to player choice in EVE as in Dust, and even in EVE there are usually hulls in every race/size class which are much closer to a 'generalist' hull, an option which will be greatly constrained if not outright removed (at least from support) if the proposed changes go through in the context that currently seems to apply.
There is a final important note to be made here, a massive sweeping change does not equal even a mild improvement in game wide balance. I could improve balance but there's no guarantee of that. Combining that lack of guarantee with the lack of any numbers or vision statement to at least back up the idea that there is a pressing problem which must be addressed and that the intent of the changes does indeed address it... well I'll quote one of our CPMs on the subject
Nova Knife wrote:
One of the dark realities of design is that most ideas are usually pretty bad. When people have been brainstorming for a while... pretty much any idea can begin to sound really good, until someone else enters the room and says "That's just freaking terrible.... Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad. - But if you changed them like X, they could be good!" That person entering the room is going to be you as a CPM bro. And the sad truth is.... The people in the room are probably not going to listen to you nearly as often as you think, despite how obvious the flaws in their ideas may seem.
This phenomenon has more potential to occur the more broad and sweeping the changes/ideas in question are, furthermore broader changes also put more of an unrealistic burden on QA to catch all the possible uses, bugs and exploits of an essentially new context, frankly a small QA team no matter how professional isn't likely to catch everything an entire player base eventually will. Meaning that even if something is unquestionably, verifiable, broken/imbalanced sweeping changes at a later stage in the development cycle are more often than not less than ideal as the means to bring things back in line. And I must reiterate that I have still yet to see any conclusive reasoning, let alone compelling numbers, that support the idea these changes - to the logistics role skill buff - even need to be made in the first place. I'm not denying that theoretically such information could exist somewhere, but I haven't seen it and I do take pains to keep my POV tied as closely to the information I have as possible. I'm not perfect to be sure, but I do make the active effort and as such I'm still waiting to see compelling reasoning backed up by solid information which illustrates why this change is both the best option and even needed to begin with, absent that information I'm likely to remain generally opposed to such massive alterations to the game state.
Change is good, change solely for changes sake is... well, usually messy when it comes to game development.
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Posted - 2014.01.21 19:20:00 -
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Drapedup Drippedout wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:ADAM-OF-EVE wrote:[quote=Arkena Wyrnspire]If you need the self-repairs, fit a local armour rep. Simple. sure we will just give up 200ehp to fit one, thats perfect balance against every combat class thats getting both an ehp buff and a dps buff Welcome to the assault suits in 1.5/1.6.
The assault suits needing some love is in no way equal to the logistics suits being broken and needing a nerf, especially doing both at once, there are far more implications to a change within the game than just comparing the medium frames side by side.
Unless you're talking exclusively about the equipment slots then there are no "extra" slots, all those "extra" slots are burned up just getting the support frame up to the base stats of the assault frame with no net gain in mirrored side by side fits, in fact there's a net loss for the logistics frame in that context because of the higher ISK/SP requirements to field what in most numeric ways amounts to the same fitting.
TTK going up is good news on balance, but it's benefits don't apply until the changes come so unless those changes are coming at the same time or before the other changes they are at least poorly timed and going to net a lot of actual in game feedback and play with less than ideal results due to the deployment gap, and that's ignoring the implications for the NPE.
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Posted - 2014.01.21 20:25:00 -
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John Demonsbane wrote:Well put, cross. No debate there, 1.8 should have been 1.0, but since they broke the core mechanics of the game, here we are, what, 6-8 months later?
Ultimately that's the problem, these are growing pains we should have gone through a long time ago but didn't. At this point we really have no choice but to go through them and come out the other side with the best game we can.
That's entirely fair and I won't dispute it at all.
That being said I'd still favor a granulated implementation for the sake of proper vetting over a ground up overhaul that will put increased strain on the NPE, the meta game, and frankly the QA teams, before the dust settles and we've started to ferret out all the new bugs and exploits that are virtually inevitable with so much changed all at once. At the minimum holding of on changing things that directly impact eHP until TTK has been fine tuned to meet the threshold CCP wants it at.
Quote:Also, we don't know that they are taking slots away from the logi suits, it's all speculation right now. They may be adding slots to the assaults, or they may keep the slots the same but decrease the CPU/PG of the suits commensurate to the new bonus such that you can still make a proper support logi fitting but not a killer bee. That's one solution myself and others had suggested as an alternative to the terribad sidearm only nonsense that was floating around a month or so ago.
While I agree the assaults need some love I've spent months on these forums asking for fittings examples that, sans racial skill buffs, put a "killer bee" above it's racial assault, and I've yet to see one. With the skill bonus included the old CalLogi surly met that mark but no where in that is the whole role let alone suit layout indited by the facts. In current game state the substantive difference between the suits in the medium line is that the logistics have lower base stats in exchange for more fittings flex. This can be used to good effect no question but it also requires a higher SP investment and a higher ISK cost to field as you're fitting more mods per load out than on the assault. It also means that various general skill buff effects provide less for the logistics frame than they give to the assault because the base values of the assault are higher (fittings skills are the notable exception to this trend).
Bluntly put, I've only seen information to support the idea that the assault suits need better racial skill buffs (and maybe a better role bonus so it's not lopsided towards some races). I have yet to see any solid or compelling evidence which supports the contention that any further changes to the medium suit line are called for. I've seen volumes of hyperbole but no meaningful evidence and yet we're still looking at some massive changes and I'm still not hearing any clear and direct statements from CCP regarding why, that combination of massive change and general silence is something I find much less than ideal.
Quote:IMO, that's the ideal solution to this whole logi-assault "war". The self-reps could have stayed, and If you make a big time reduction to equipment fit costs and drop the fitting power of the suits just the right amount (I know, CCP), the ability to make a "real" logistics fitting remains unchanged - I could make the same or better fitting I do now as a support-minded player, but if I were to put all my slots into offense, it wouldn't be as good as it can be now.
EDIT: you snuck another one in there before I could reply.
Something like you propose above would be a good sight better as a way to solve the contention. I'm still of a mind that the changes should be almost exclusively to the assault side of the medium line with the only real change to the logistics frames being a minimum two equipment slots filled before the load out is considered valid for deployment. Those two aspects together should do the trick, and if not the values could be fiddled with lightly to find the right balance.
I am honestly still baffled (not directed at you btw) at how often this subject is addressed in a way that completely glosses over the cost aspect of the cost v benefit dynamic, it is rather rare that posters proclaiming this "problem" to be in dire need of redress actually provide comparative SP and ISK investment costs to support their stance. And really if "you pay more ISK to get more effect" isn't the intended foundation of gear balance in Dust then what is? Without the cost aspect clearly included the argument might as well be "proto gear is better than my militia gear, that's not balanced, nerf it" which, while I've seen those posts too, would only serve to flatten the game play and reduce the sandbox excessively.
Cheers,
Cross
PS ~ I'd just like to take a moment here to thank you for keeping the discussion constructive and hostility free, it's appreciated mate 
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Posted - 2014.01.21 23:51:00 -
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John Demonsbane wrote:You're welcome. Just like I only snipe red snipers, I only troll other trolls (usually  ). Seriously though, the cost of logi stuff is no joke, but there are two problems with using that argument here. One, killer bees aren't using much equipment by definition. Second, the economy is so broken with all the ISK farmers in PC right now that Nyain San can afford to run their maxed out logi gk.0s and lose 10 madrugars a game forever. (I've personally killed 4 of their tanks in one match, with my team killing a total of 11, they didn't bat an eye, just kept spamming us into the Stone Age).
Those are accurate observations, however they're not direct inditements of the logistics suit or support load outs which means that the problems aren't centered there and thus best solutions won't be either. "Killer bees" aren't shouldering the same burden in fittings, SP, or ISK that a support player is so if the "fix" to mechanics is such that the logistics frames/load outs are nerfed to the point where bees aren't considered a problem anymore then it's guaranteed the actual support players have just been gimped. Hence why I'm so amendment other methods need to be employed, such as giving the assault suits solid enough skill buffs et al to make them a more attractive choice and requiring 1-2 pieces of equipment be part of each logi fit. These may not solve everything but they're smaller more precise steps which improve on the situation and can be fine tuned to address the situation as things develop, rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater as it were.
As to the ISK faucet, well that's clearly a problem with PC and needs to be addressed but we can't simply dismiss the comparative value of ISK throughout the game because of it or we've just eliminated a key aspect of the risk v reward aspect of dust. It would be the same if someone were able to exploit for limitless SP, that exploit would need fixed, not the SP system ignored/scrapped, see what I'm saying? I don't think there's much of a case to be made for the current iteration of PC being balanced and in a good place, but that's PC balance not medium frame balance.
Quote:As for the actual fittings, the only real problem arose once brick tanking became the best fit. Just like with all those losers who started running heavy suits with their duvolles, you can tank a Gallente logi pretty hard, stack damage mods in the highs and put in a scanner and compact hive and voila, the Nyain San Standard Protostomping Suit.
/nods
I can see your point here, however the proposed changes effect the GalLogi suit, and that fit specifically, least out of the field.
Barring changes to the actual suit layout (since my comments have been focused on the skill changes) the net effect on that type of fit will be; a bit less buffer, the same reps, the same dps, and better scans/more WP from scans.
Unlike the rest of the logi frames who are effectively trading 5/HPs for -25% fittings cost on equipment, the GalLogi is trading that 5/HPs for better scans because it already has the discount at present.
Another element of that fit worth noting is that it's heavily damage mod dependent, a common hallmark of the fittings that cause the most trouble/garner the most OP calls. This seems to indicate that it is being able to stack damage mods so heavily that is, at least in part, at the heart of the problem and that is another aspect which should be addressed but is not in fact part of medium frame balance. Indeed with all the "nerf logi DPS" calls, some as over the top as the "side arm only" thing I am surprised that my suggestion to limit the number of damage mods a Logi suit can run didn't gain more support several months back when I made it, but that was in the CalLogi "slayer" heyday so the stacking of shield mods may account for it /shrug. I also suggested the Assault line be given an special "extra" slot which would be specifically for damage mods. or that their role bonus be changed to enhance damage mod effect so that they could maintain the same high dps while scaling down the base value effectiveness of stacked mods, again neither idea met with much support.
So as it stands the changes on balance put more of a burden on support players than "killer bees" and do so in a way that only minimally addresses the specific example(s), while also not addressing the issues present in damage mods, PC ISK flow, or providing the Assault suit a solid value (just nerfing the logi suit until it's weaker than the assault doesn't mean the assault is now valuable, it simply means the whole medium frame line is now weaker compared to both light and heavy).
Simply put the problem doesn't seem very specifically assessed and what assessment there is doesn't point to the proposed changes being an effective meaningful fix for the issues raised, the changes will however make playing support harder, and more costly for all new players and non-ISK farmers. All in all that seems to me to be a pretty bad call, unless there's new information which I'm still missing.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.01.22 00:13:00 -
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Nothing Certain wrote:I logi most of the time, this is not much of am issue for me, it's usually live or die when I lose my armor, repping isn't that important, if I find it becomes an issue I don't think losing an armor slot or carrying triage hives is a huge sacrifice if in exchange I get to carry better equipment.
But you don't to get carry better equipment.
At present values, assuming the use of the most expensive equipment (i.e that which will provide the greatest discount given by the new skill) the effect of the changes is a net loss in CPU/PG if one assumes adding a Complex Rep and accounts for the fittings values of the removed skill buffs.
Put another way if you build a fit with the same stats under the new skills (accepting the loss of some buffer in that as a repper is swapped in) you end up with less total available CPU/PG, so while the new discount skills sound like they will provide more available fittings on balance they actually do not do so most of the time, and that's even assuming you were already carrying repper hives, otherwise the fittings cost is generally even higher/the exchange even more costly for support players.
~ Cross
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Posted - 2014.01.22 00:38:00 -
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Reign Omega wrote:I'd like to pop my head back in and say, someone seriously thought I was trolling in my earlier posts? That's the problem with criticisms everyone takes it so personally. I was a logi, am a logi and will be a logi in 1.8. I have had to adjust my play several times since I picked up the game 18 months ago, but that's all it is is an adjustment. I take these changes with a grain of salt and will continue to do what I do. More people should be less ruffled by these things.
That's easier to do for beta vets, much harder for players newly entering the game.
Will I personally be able to adjust even with the new skills? Sure, it'll weaken my fits because it's a nerf but it won't stop me playing support. The question however isn't will I keep playing the roll, or will anyone else. Rather the question is "are these changes both beneficial and warranted", so far there's little indication that they are either, in fact most information I've seen on it simply seems to indicate that they will place additional burdens on some of the most burdened demographics in game (such as new players) while only mildly mitigating the targeted problems.
Here's a simple theory exercise, if something is so imbalanced that it needs fixed, and a change is being made that fixes it, how can the effects of such a change be counterbalanced or overcome so simply as equipping one additional mod (as so many have suggested in this thread and others)? It doesn't seem to follow that a change can both be an effective re-balance and easily compensated for at the same time, and if it is easy to compensate for how can the lack of that change be game breaking?
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Posted - 2014.01.22 03:23:00 -
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John Demonsbane wrote:
I did mention damage mods but I probably should not have because I don't think they are actually a problem, they are more of a convenient bogeyman that people can point at without actually having to give any real thought to the issue like we are here.
I've had a long and slowly building sense that damage mods stacked beyond two push weapons out of line with intended function, it's been getting to be a stronger impression for me since closed beta ended, but as it's not the point of your statements I'll leave it at that here.
Quote:I don't want to downplay the 25% reduction to equipment, because as an Amarr logi I have to make compromises I don't necessarily want to. Yes, I have my gun out way more than my rep tool, but I'm Amarr, that's what I do, even as a logi. (My KDR still sux, don't worry about that, lol). But, I'm forced to use a minmatar weapon (the CR) to save fitting costs. I'm hopeful I won't have to do that anymore.
Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is that I'm reserving judgement until we actually see the patch notes or at least more details on slot layouts. Overall I like the direction things are going so I'm gonna wait for more information and give feedback when it's available.
One of the things that bothers me is that, unless the suits and slots are rebuilt as well, the skill changes will result in a net loss of fittings resources, both in slots and CPU / PG assuming a merc is trying to run a fit with approximately the same stats. That is based on the merc getting the most of the new skill by running proto equipment, if they're running anything less the hit to fittings will be an even heavier blow. So for newer support players this change (as it's currently been presented) will be a real burden, and one which on balance doesn't seem like it will fix the "killer bee" effect either, it certainly doesn't seem like it is required as a means to do so.
The Equip discount completely aside (semi-off topic) I have issues with the new skills as they're currently set due to the constraints they create on any support player seeking to optimize the value of their racial skills (more so the Cal and Amarr, but the Gal and Min a bit as well). The skills now require the use of specific bits of equipment by race, some of them expendable deployables while others are hand held, and one the Gal scanner is also ranged and works through walls/cover. The effect on potential WP earnings with this skills is not equal across the races, and that's even assuming CCP doesn't constrain the use of deployed equipment (as they've indicated they are considering) and even if the current broken scaling on WPs within the equipment line were fixed (which we have no time table for).
Without a fix to WP scaling for equipment, and with a new cap/constraint on the use of deployed equipment included the new racial skills become even more biased further punishing some races support play with only the GalLogi perhaps coming out ahead. The MinLogi may come out in okay shape on the tactical side but even there WP earnings are still taking a hit as we currently work under a repper earnings cap and without a true "X HP healed = Y WP earned" granulated system.
Conclusion being; the combined net effect of the new racial and role skills is a nerf to the logi of every race with the debatable exception of the Gal Logi. On top of that the skill changes (even if new suit layouts somehow offset the above) still devalue the introduction of new equipment, just as they are currently going to devalue (to some degree) remotes and proxies, though admittedly those suffer less due to their aggressive status than would utility equipment such as shield bubbles or cloaking.
I agree there may be info which would change my point of view on this matter, when and if I see such I'll happily change my tune, but until that time I must reiterate that the proposed changes look like a very bad idea indeed.
Cheers,
Cross
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Posted - 2014.01.22 03:32:00 -
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Galvan Nized wrote:You now get an advantage to equipment PG/CPU, meaning it will be easier to fit that repping hive or an actual repping mod. You may not need that CPU mod to fit all those gadgets/mods.
You also get an advantage to a specific equipment, it doesn't mean any equipment will be any less effective that it is now.
You're going to have to rethink your role as a logi, it's no longer the best suit in the game. If you would rather run the most survivable suit with equipment you can run a commando. Or if you want more flexibility you can run a scout. Or if you'd rather focus on killing and lightly dabble in repping, reviving, or resupplying just go Assault.
The logistics suit will still be the best suit for helping your team/squad. It never should have been the most versatile and best suit in the game. That was a failure by CCP, we've got to make things right.
Fittings examples, without relying on skill bonuses or it didn't happen.
I've been asking for this for months and it's largely been unheeded.
1. Choose a race
2. Build an assault fit (or heavy or scout if you like but those are less directly comparable)
3. Build a Logi fit trying to match the stats of your fit from #2 in all metrics before specializing into any one area, such as eHP or DPS, more heavily.
4. Fill your equipment slots with an assortment of proto
5. If you have any fittings resources left add additional mods as able
6. Tally the required SP and ISK costs to field each fitting.
Then post your fittings side by side for everyone to see.
I don't claim to be a fittings "god" or somehow "super leet" but the simple fact is I have yet to encounter a fitting, using the unmodified equipment/weapon/frame values which can demonstrably indicate the current logi layout is superior.
If you can provide say, a couple of examples (or even one) from each race then lets have a discussion about those cases and see what can be figured out. Until then I'm going to continue to ask for solid proof that there is a problem with the current suit stats/layout.
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Posted - 2014.01.22 04:40:00 -
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True Adamance wrote:You don't need personal reps.
Your job is to rep other players.
Isn't that a bit like saying "you don't need eHP, your job is to kill other players" to an assault?
If you're not alive you're not doing much of anything and without some solid version of eHP you're not going to last long.
Scouts are faster and have more stealth, heavies have much more raw HP, assaults have better stats than logi in most metrics (even if only by moderate amounts), what about the support role means "should die the easiest"? Or even "should have lower potential eHP than assaults", after all eHP is not DPS, nor is it ability to project damage onto a target, nor is an advantage in it a sure sign of getting an unfair edge in the cost benefit game (if it were Heavies would be the undisputed winner).
Should logi also be immune to pick up? Should logi be unable to resupply from hives? Unable to respawn via uplinks?
These are also equipment based, support centric effects, what are the criteria required that define something as "should not be had by a support role"?
In my experience a much lower self rep (at the cost of many SP) to compensate for being the one holding the repair tool and thus the one it cannot be pointed at, makes a certain amount of sense. Is it enough to save you in a firefight? Not really. Is it enough to let you survive if you're careful and keep to cover supporting your squad? Yeah it'll help there. I've still not seen how it is purported to be a game breaking asset to running "assault" build via the logi suit, care to take the fittings challage I outlined in my prior post? I don't claim to be all knowing but I have honestly still not seen fittings that support the contention of a change in this skill being needed or the correct solution to the problems of the assault. That being said I want to reiterate that I'm very open to any new solid information you or other mercs could link for me.
Cheers,
Cross
SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1858
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Posted - 2014.01.22 04:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Silas Swakhammer wrote:ITT, walls of text
TLDR = Post fittings or it didn't happen. 
SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1871
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Posted - 2014.01.23 06:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Having a tanky bonus on a Healer class doesnt make sense.
Buffing the base health of the suit for survivability does..
Same With Assaults and their shield tanky bonuses, DPS class has to be DPS bonus based.
This is proven balance in classes the "Tri-Star" known for in the RPG genre's.
The more we get away from that the harder it will be to balance it.
Falling back on "holey trinity" style balance ill suits New Eden. This game is not EQ, WoW, et al it is a sandbox rather than a semi-liner 'errand based' quest game. Roles are not equal to classes nor are they supposed to be so limiting and hardline, they are tools in the players kit to be used, the meta game and player flexibility/innovation matter in the sandbox, in standard MMORPGs there is little to no meta/player innovation in the New Eden sense as things are prescribed in nature and progression from character creation on. Those games can be amusing in their own right but they are not what New Eden is about nor should the sandbox be exchanged for them. Proven balance for the rules and play of tennis doesn't apply in a meaningful way to a game of lacrosse, it's apples to oranges just like the example above is when applied to the sandbox of New Eden.
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Cross
SupportSP Rollover & an improved Recruting System
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