DUST Search - CCP Remnant, lets discuss assault bonuses

ReGnYuM wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

Aero Yassavi wrote:

Where did you state why offensive or defensive based general skills are bad? Also how about you explain why the Minmatar Assault and Caldari Assault are supposed to be aggressive offensive assaults while the Gallente and Minmatar are supposed to be passive defensive assaults? Isn't the point of assaulting to, you know, assault? It implies offensive. There are other roles more suited for defensive. And while you're at it, why don't you explain why higher DPS and firing longer are "lol" bonuses?

So far all you've done is state things like they are fact with no supportive reasoning. You are the one making the assertions here, so you should be the one teaching us, no? Afterall, you are the master all-proto-assaults PC player, are you not?

Well, as far as Gallente and Amarr, the speed reduction from armor and the suit itself (for amarr) is significant enough to force a different playstyle.
That playstyle is defensive assault.

Don't take it wrong, it's not about sitting somewhere and defending it forever, it's about seeing a ground, saying "THIS IS MINE BITCHES" and hold it.
Once there are no enemies on that ground, you push forward.

That way you assault more slowly, but you decimate any opposition.

Minmatar may be the fastest suit, but it also has the least stamina. Meanwhile Amarr may be the slowest suit, but it has the most stamina. What use would having all that stamina be if all you're doing is defending an objective?

Minmatar (and to a lesser degree Caldari) are good for weaving in and out of cover, while Amarr (and to a lesser degree Gallente) are good for getting around distances faster and then securing a strong hold once they get there, but both are assault suits and designed for offensive abilities. That is what assaulting means.

1. As it stands with most, assaulting is slaying, which believe it or not, passive or offensive, slaying is still considered an offensive attribute.

2. You're mistaking passive slaying with point defense. Completely different roles, which makes me wonder why you're posting in an assault thread.

Aero wrote:

Meanwhile Amarr may be the slowest suit, but it has the most stamina. What use would having all that stamina be if all you're doing is defending an objective?

^Case and point. Passive slaying is not about hugging an objective. Its about using your environment in a defensive manner, while racking up kills. The best example of passive slayering, is a player like OGSR Valdez stationed on R1 in the tower map.

3. Stamina is your argument. Stamina plays such little factor in PC Assaulting that it is hardly even debatable. Furthermore, they only place stamina might play a factor is the city socket. For instance, moving from one objective to another objective as fast as possible. However, no experienced player round ever just run right into an objective, so stamina again is not a big factor.

The two biggest factors that determine rather you're a defensive or offensive assault is a.) Movement speed and b.) Sprint speed. Movement for the obvious advantage it gives you in 1v1 engagements. Sprint for the obvious run and gun slaying.

Heres my daily tip Aero, leave your RP FW corp and join a strong founded PC, not some indie corp, and play PC against the best. Learn what works with your suit and what doesn't. Learn what modules augments your play style and which don't. I have already learned what works, and I am done wasting my breath on someone who only runs FW and Pubs.

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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8213	Posted - 2014.01.20 06:14:00 - [61] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: With the 7% reduction in the time it takes to reload hybrid rail weapons, the Caldari Assault would be pretty good. Here's what it would do exactly: [Rail Rifle] Base reload speed: 3.2s Caldari Assault Lv5: 2.08s (-1.12s) Caldari Assault Lv5 + Rail Rifle Reload Lv 5: 1.768s (-1.432s) [Sniper Rifle] Base reload speed: 4.0s Caldari Assault Lv5: 2.6s (-1.4s) Caldari Assault Lv5 + Sniper Rifle Reload Lv 5: 2.21s (-1.79s) [Magsec SMG] Base reload speed: 3.2s Caldari Assault Lv5: 2.08s (-1.12s) Caldari Assault Lv5 + Magsec SMG reload* Lv 5: 1.768s (-1.432s) [Bolt Pistol] Base reload speed: 2.7s Caldari Assault Lv5: 1.755s (-0.945s) Caldari Assault Lv5 + Bolt Pistol Reload* Lv 5: 1.492s (-1.208s) * Assumes the reload skill will be 3% per level, since not released yet. Values in parentheses are compared with base reload speed. +1 Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Killar-12 The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2038	Posted - 2014.01.20 07:11:00 - [62] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Cat Merc wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Where did you state why offensive or defensive based general skills are bad? Also how about you explain why the Minmatar Assault and Caldari Assault are supposed to be aggressive offensive assaults while the Gallente and Minmatar are supposed to be passive defensive assaults? Isn't the point of assaulting to, you know, assault? It implies offensive. There are other roles more suited for defensive. And while you're at it, why don't you explain why higher DPS and firing longer are "lol" bonuses? So far all you've done is state things like they are fact with no supportive reasoning. You are the one making the assertions here, so you should be the one teaching us, no? Afterall, you are the master all-proto-assaults PC player, are you not? Well, as far as Gallente and Amarr, the speed reduction from armor and the suit itself (for amarr) is significant enough to force a different playstyle. That playstyle is defensive assault. Don't take it wrong, it's not about sitting somewhere and defending it forever, it's about seeing a ground, saying "THIS IS MINE BITCHES" and hold it. Once there are no enemies on that ground, you push forward. That way you assault more slowly, but you decimate any opposition. Minmatar may be the fastest suit, but it also has the least stamina. Meanwhile Amarr may be the slowest suit, but it has the most stamina. What use would having all that stamina be if all you're doing is defending an objective? Minmatar (and to a lesser degree Caldari) are good for weaving in and out of cover, while Amarr (and to a lesser degree Gallente) are good for getting around distances faster and then securing a strong hold once they get there, but both are assault suits and designed for offensive abilities. That is what assaulting means. 1. As it stands with most, assaulting is slaying, which believe it or not, passive or offensive, slaying is still considered an offensive attribute. 2. You're mistaking passive slaying with point defense. Completely different roles, which makes me wonder why you're posting in an assault thread. Aero wrote: Meanwhile Amarr may be the slowest suit, but it has the most stamina. What use would having all that stamina be if all you're doing is defending an objective? ^Case and point. Passive slaying is not about hugging an objective. Its about using your environment in a defensive manner, while racking up kills. The best example of passive slayering, is a player like OGSR Valdez stationed on R1 in the tower map. 3. Stamina is your argument. Stamina plays such little factor in PC Assaulting that it is hardly even debatable. Furthermore, they only place stamina might play a factor is the city socket. For instance, moving from one objective to another objective as fast as possible. However, no experienced player round ever just run right into an objective, so stamina again is not a big factor. The two biggest factors that determine rather you're a defensive or offensive assault is a.) Movement speed and b.) Sprint speed. Movement for the obvious advantage it gives you in 1v1 engagements. Sprint for the obvious run and gun slaying. Heres my daily tip Aero, leave your RP FW corp and join a strong founded PC, not some indie corp, and play PC against the best. Learn what works with your suit and what doesn't. Learn what modules augments your play style and which don't. I have already learned what works, and I am done wasting my breath on someone who only runs FW and Pubs. NF does PC? A-Teams win Battles B-Teams win Campaigns C-Teams win Wars
Happy Violentime L0ST PR0FITS 178	Posted - 2014.01.20 08:20:00 - [63] - Quote Reduction of CPU/pg as an assault bonus is pretty **** - it only helps newer players, anyone with max core skills will find it pointless.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8214	Posted - 2014.01.20 08:27:00 - [64] - Quote Happy Violentime wrote: Reduction of CPU/pg as an assault bonus is pretty ** - it only helps newer players, anyone with max core skills will find it pointless. I have maxed out core skills, an Amarr suit with lots ff PG/CPU, and I still wish I could get more s I could fit more. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt** Gû¦Gû+
Broonfondle Majikthies Dogs of War Gaming Zero-Day 739	Posted - 2014.01.20 08:40:00 - [65] - Quote My two cents: As a Min fan I wouldn't want an increase in RoF for my CR's. I don't believe it would benefit the standard burst and the assault will be seriously hampered in a proper CQC situation - your level of gun control would have to be phenomenal not to waste ammo and the clip size is not vast. Sure at close to mid range an assault with +RoF would be a complete beast but would still be terrible for multiple engagements. Also the increase to damage modifiers seems very weak. An extra +2.5% on a complex doesn't appeal to me, I don't like stacking damage mods - I prefer flexibility and quick recovery so my highs prioritise extenders, rechargers and only fit a damage mod as a secondary consideration. Then again the whole proficiency and damage mods are likely to change so who knows, maybe it will make more sense when we see what they plan. "...where Bylothgar the Ill-postured was made King of the People With No Name But Decent Footwear"
The-Errorist 464	Posted - 2014.01.20 17:40:00 - [66] - Quote Broonfondle Majikthies wrote: My two cents: As a Min fan I wouldn't want an increase in RoF for my CR's. I don't believe it would benefit the standard burst and the assault will be seriously hampered in a proper CQC situation - your level of gun control would have to be phenomenal not to waste ammo and the clip size is not vast. Sure at close to mid range an assault with +RoF would be a complete beast but would still be terrible for multiple engagements. Also the increase to damage modifiers seems very weak. An extra +2.5% on a complex doesn't appeal to me, I don't like stacking damage mods - I prefer flexibility and quick recovery so my highs prioritise extenders, rechargers and only fit a damage mod as a secondary consideration. Then again the whole proficiency and damage mods are likely to change so who knows, maybe it will make more sense when we see what they plan. Its 5% per level so its 25% at Lv5, which equivalent to 2 complex and 1 enhanced damage mod.
m621 zma OMFGZOMBIESRUN 94	Posted - 2014.01.20 18:35:00 - [67] - Quote As a Cal assault and as a railgun user I can honestly say CPU/PG bonus + Reload speed = Trash bonuses. Bonuses to shield and rate of fire are actually a bonus. Scrambler users and laser users need their own unique bonus on amar assault suits.
The-Errorist 465	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:44:00 - [68] - Quote m621 zma wrote: As a Cal assault and as a railgun user I can honestly say CPU/PG bonus + Reload speed = Trash bonuses. Bonuses to shield and rate of fire are actually a bonus. Scrambler users and laser users need their own unique bonus on amar assault suits. A rate of fire bonus would make the gun too good at CQC A damage per shot bonus is better suited for Gallente Assaults A bonus to HP doesn't fit with the assault role A bonus to CPU/PG would make it easier to fit prototype rail weapons which take up A LOT OF PG/CPU, so you don't have to put CPU/PG extenders to increase your damage output. [Rail Rifle] CPU: 84 PG: 17 Reload time: 3.2s [Light weapon Op Lv5, Rail rifle fitting optimization Lv5, Rail Rifle reload Lv5] CPU: 71.4 (-12.6 CPU) PG: 12.75 (-4.25 PG) Reload time: 2.72s (-0.48s) [Light weapon Op Lv5, Rail rifle fitting optimization Lv5, Rail Rifle reload Lv5, Caldari Assault Lv5] CPU: 53.55 (-30.45 CPU) Which is 17.85 CPU less than just with Light wep OP Lv5. PG: 9.56 (-7.44 PG) Which is 3.19 PG less than just with RR fitting OP Lv5. Reload time: 1.77s (-1.43s) Which is 0.95s less than just with RR reload Lv5. These are pretty significant bonus, but they are boring.
The-Errorist 465	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:54:00 - [69] - Quote Another bonus to RR could be 7% reduction in reload time & 10% charge time reduction for hybrid-rail weapons per level. This would cut the charge time in half from 0.3 to 0.15 for ALL hybrid-rail weapons.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8228	Posted - 2014.01.20 19:57:00 - [70] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Another bonus to RR could be 7% reduction in reload time & 10% charge time reduction for hybrid-rail weapons per level. This would cut the charge time in half from 0.3 to 0.15 for ALL hybrid-rail weapons. I like it, though I wish the base sniper rifle was a charge, this way it could benefit from it. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

The-Errorist 465	Posted - 2014.01.20 20:09:00 - [71] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Another bonus to RR could be 7% reduction in reload time & 10% charge time reduction for hybrid-rail weapons per level. This would cut the charge time in half from 0.3 to 0.15 for ALL hybrid-rail weapons. I like it, though I wish the base sniper rifle was a charge, this way it could benefit from it. At least a charge variant exists that could benefit from this bonus.
Dagger-Two Gespenster Kompanie 206	Posted - 2014.01.21 04:52:00 - [72] - Quote Completely agree with the 5% weapon pg/cpu reduction per level. That is very much a fitting bonus for the assault suits. Personally I've always wanted to see CCP avoid using dropsuit bonuses to improve weapon damage (the Amarr heat bonus is good, though) I believe that the second bonus for the Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar assault suits could be put to much better use than making specific weapons better, since 1) it almost forces you to use a particular weapon to be as effective as possible, and 2) makes little sense that the suit you are weaning would somehow make your gun BETTER in any way (just like damage mods make no sense, though no doubt eventually those will be things we fit to the weapon itself, not the suit). Just my thought on the matter (5% cpu.pg weapon usage + a racial defensive bonus, what I personally would like to see most) Playing since 1st batch of closed beta keys.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8241	Posted - 2014.01.21 05:48:00 - [73] - Quote CCP Remnant hates me Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Jackof All-Trades The Southern Legion The Umbra Combine 338	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:27:00 - [74] - Quote Gallente RoF... but what about my plasma cannon? ): "Pulvis et umbra sums." We are but dust and shadow GÇò Horace, The Odes of Horace \ Omni-Specialist / Focus: Gallente
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8242	Posted - 2014.01.21 06:32:00 - [75] - Quote Jackof All-Trades wrote: Gallente RoF... but what about my plasma cannon? ): Maybe it can reduce the charge time? Technically would mean higher fire rate. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
m621 zma OMFGZOMBIESRUN 95	Posted - 2014.01.21 17:50:00 - [76] - Quote m621 zma wrote: As a Cal assault and as a railgun user I can honestly say CPU/PG bonus + Reload speed = Trash bonuses. Bonuses to shield and rate of fire are actually a bonus. Scrambler users and laser users need their own unique bonus on amar assault suits. Changed my mind. I'd be down with 5% bonus CPU per lvl <- purely for my own selfish reasons though you understand Reload though??? Meh.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8250	Posted - 2014.01.21 18:17:00 - [77] - Quote m621 zma wrote: m621 zma wrote: As a Cal assault and as a railgun user I can honestly say CPU/PG bonus + Reload speed = Trash bonuses. Bonuses to shield and rate of fire are actually a bonus. Scrambler users and laser users need their own unique bonus on amar assault suits. Changed my mind. I'd be down with 5% bonus CPU per lvl <- purely for my own selfish reasons though you understand Reload though??? Meh. How would you feel about recoil reduction? Is there any weapon-specific bonus you'd like to see for Caldari? Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8284	Posted - 2014.01.22 03:00:00 - [78] - Quote Release the medium stats and bonuses so I can complain about them already! Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Fire of Prometheus DUST University Ivy League 3092	Posted - 2014.01.22 03:24:00 - [79] - Quote This is why you need to be on CPM-1 +1 Commando 6 // A.R.C Commander // D-Uni instructor A Balac's and a Thale's.....What's on your commando? Forum warrior 3
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8291	Posted - 2014.01.22 05:06:00 - [80] - Quote Fire of Prometheus wrote: This is why you need to be on CPM-1 +1 I appreciate the sentiment Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+

axis alpha Red Star. EoN. 161	Posted - 2014.01.22 05:16:00 - [81] - Quote Reload speed is useless. That's why every weapon has the option to skill into rapid reload... The best part of waking up, is whiskey in my cuuuuup!
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8293	Posted - 2014.01.22 05:21:00 - [82] - Quote axis alpha wrote: Reload speed is useless. That's why every weapon has the option to skill into rapid reload... Well I disagree since it means the less time you spend reloading, the more time spent dealing damage. The fact that most weapons have a skill to improve something doesn't mean that something is useless; for example most weapons have a proficiency skill to increase damage, but I'm sure no one would find damage useless as a bonus. What weapon bonus would you prefer for Caldari assault? I am open t suggestions. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Nocturnal Soul Immortal Retribution 1694	Posted - 2014.01.22 05:29:00 - [83] - Quote I say increased total amount of ammunition for the RR I find myself running out of ammo a lot with that gun. "The trick to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources..." Albert Einstein
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1683	Posted - 2014.01.22 05:32:00 - [84] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: axis alpha wrote: Reload speed is useless. That's why every weapon has the option to skill into rapid reload... Well I disagree since it means the less time you spend reloading, the more time spent dealing damage. The fact that most weapons have a skill to improve something doesn't mean that something is useless; for example most weapons have a proficiency skill to increase damage, but I'm sure no one would find damage useless as a bonus. What weapon bonus would you prefer for Caldari assault? I am open t suggestions. See this is the question that kicks my ass, and is why I HATE that bonuses are attached to the skill, instead of unique bonuses for each weapon attached to the weapon. Instead we face a situation where no matter what you pick, some weapons of that race are going to get screwed in one form or another. Charge time? Well that's somewhat useful but not a great incentive since charge time is so low already. Decreased Recoil? Decreased dispersion? Already have skills for that and its only useful for full auto weapons. Increased Damage? Ok now its the same as Commando Reload speed? Only REALLY useful for some weapons like the Swarm Launcher. Fire Rate? Useless on some weapons that are semi auto. Magazine Size? Well this one makes more sense for the Minmatar, and weapons with low capacities (Swarm Launcher) would get screwed. I mean what I take away from this is that because bonuses are tied to the skill instead of the weapon, you just need to pick one and grit your teeth knowing that 25-50% of the Caldari weapons will receive minimal to no benefit from it. 1.8 Sentinels Damage Efficiency Effective HP
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8294	Posted - 2014.01.22 06:43:00 - [85] - Quote Added to the Caldari bonus to make it more appealing, basically no need for nanohives. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8295	Posted - 2014.01.22 07:35:00 - [86] - Quote Feedback welcomed on the tweaked Caldari assault bonus proposal Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
Cat Merc Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 5827	Posted - 2014.01.22 15:18:00 - [87] - Quote Ion pistol master race approves. Shield regeneration bonus for Gallente Assault is about as useful as Sharpshooter for Nova Knives. Tuna > Tacos
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8302	Posted - 2014.01.22 16:16:00 - [88] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: I say increased total amount of ammunition for the RR I find myself running out of ammo a lot with that gun. Changed it, made it both a reload and max ammo bonus. Double bonus. Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
The-Errorist 472	Posted - 2014.01.22 20:04:00 - [89] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I say increased total amount of ammunition for the RR I find myself running out of ammo a lot with that gun. Changed it, made it both a reload and max ammo bonus. Double bonus. Shouldn't the max ammo bonus be also a general role bonus for assaults?
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 8358	Posted - 2014.01.24 01:50:00 - [90] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: I say increased total amount of ammunition for the RR I find myself running out of ammo a lot with that gun. Changed it, made it both a reload and max ammo bonus. Double bonus. Shouldn't the max ammo bonus be also a general role bonus for assaults? Nope Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+



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