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CharCharOdell
1768
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Posted - 2013.12.19 19:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tanks were actually harder to kill in chrome. Tanks would cycle 2-3 hardeners and a booster. There was no period of weakness. It took teams of AV working together to kill a tank and those who knew what they were doing, did it regularly. I remember being in a 2.25mil tank chasing down a helpless grunt...into an ambush. All around me F-45s, proximines, swarms, and forges started ripping my 20,000 ehp tank to shreds. I had all my hardness on and got away with 500 armor. I thought I was safe, then a yolo nade hit me and I lost 2.25mil. AV understood that tankers who know their art follow a set doctrine developed over time. By understanding their prey, they could exploit its weakness.
I'm starting to see people do this now. Yesterday, I was killed by two people. One with a mlt swarm and the other with a wiki swarm. The mlt guy shot me and I activated my hardeners. When my hardeners cut off, the proto swarm killed my in 0.6 seconds with two volleys from 50m because he knew I couldn't run away at that range. It was beautiful, honestly. I did my best and he knew what I would do, so he won. It was tactics on both of our sides. People need to learn how to read the battlefield. Tanks are easier to kill than ever, but one must wait for their hardeners to shut down. It's really that simple. Stop the QQ and adapt just like the true tankers did every patch.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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DUST Fiend
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
9177
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Posted - 2013.12.19 19:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why weren't you running before your hardener was down?
MUDFLAPS says it best: Good tankers never ever stop moving.
Vids / O7
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
1253
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Why weren't you running before your hardener was down?
MUDFLAPS says it best: Good tankers never ever stop moving.
Its true, staying in one spot gives the enemy time to set up an attack. Keep moving and vary movement patterns. It's the reason I get the jump on nearly 90% of my Tank vs Tank battles.
ADS Reports - Defining Racial Themes
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CharCharOdell
1769
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Why weren't you running before your hardener was down?
MUDFLAPS says it best: Good tankers never ever stop moving.
Because I saw red. Red must be dead. Don't lie and say you never chased a tank into the redline to kill it.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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LUGMOS
YELLOW JESUS EXP FORCE
223
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I like sticking REs on tanks, watching them go "oh squid," turn their hardeners on while trying to kill my scout, and then just give up. Then, i detonate.
The biggest threat to my scout is everything.
My scout is the biggest threat to everything.
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
877
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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CharCharOdell
1776
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
R F Gyro wrote:Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position. I put 10+ mil in my tank. It better stomp. But these mlt tanks are too good for being 0 sp and 80k isk
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2286
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:R F Gyro wrote:Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position. I put 10+ mil in my tank. It better stomp. But these mlt tanks are too good for being 0 sp and 80k isk I put 4-6+ mil into AV.
Should I "stomp"
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2286
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
So basically your upset because people finally realized that they shouldn't be forced to use tactics to defeat you when you yourself aren't forced to in any way, condition, shape, or form?
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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Slag Emberforge
Immortal Retribution
337
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
If it takes having 9-12 seconds of unobstructed LOS to Kill you if your hardeners are already down and you don't have reppers, how is that balanced?
Generally good tank fits require me to reload my tier 4 prof 4 double complex modded AFG to kill them with hardeners down, and with hardeners up it is futile to even attack at all. I don't know, maybe easy for us has different meanings.
It's easy for you to kill infantry, AV in under two seconds, or one direct rail hit. You can attack infantry and installations and even jump on other tanks without modules active.
I have to wait for your weak period (If you have one and aren't running 2-3 hardeners) and take upwards of 6 times as long to kill you as it takes you to kill me. And I can't flee at near LAV speeds at low health.
Dunno, I am not crying major nerf or tanks are god mode, but it certainly is not balanced. |
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R F Gyro
Clones 4u
880
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:R F Gyro wrote:Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position. I put 10+ mil in my tank. It better stomp. But these mlt tanks are too good for being 0 sp and 80k isk So should fight between you and an AV player with 10+ mill SP be an even match then?
Its not just milita tanks that are too powerful.
RF Gyro: 12.5% damage bonus; 10.5% rate of fire bonus
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8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
1125
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Posted - 2013.12.19 21:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 |
Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2291
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Posted - 2013.12.19 21:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
8213 wrote:The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 There was an art?
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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8213
BIG BAD W0LVES
1127
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Posted - 2013.12.19 21:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Atiim wrote:8213 wrote:The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 There was an art?
Yes actually. Good tankers really did exist. It took investment and gameskill... now my grandma can do it... |
Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
316
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Tanks were actually harder to kill in chrome. Tanks would cycle 2-3 hardeners and a booster. There was no period of weakness. It took teams of AV working together to kill a tank and those who knew what they were doing, did it regularly. I remember being in a 2.25mil tank chasing down a helpless grunt...into an ambush. All around me F-45s, proximines, swarms, and forges started ripping my 20,000 ehp tank to shreds. I had all my hardness on and got away with 500 armor. I thought I was safe, then a yolo nade hit me and I lost 2.25mil. AV understood that tankers who know their art follow a set doctrine developed over time. By understanding their prey, they could exploit its weakness.
Post 1.0 and before 1.7, people got used to soloing tanks. It was extremely easy. So much so that all it did was breed the best tankers Dust has ever seen and likely ever will. The weak links have been washed out and all that remains are <20 fierce death machines who, in a duel, are the only people cape able of killing eachother. That aside, tanks seem OP because everyone was used to being able to solo them. Now it isn't possible if the tank is running hardeners and can smash through anything for <1min. Then it's glass. The infantry make the mistake of engaging during the strong periods and thus, seem like the tank is invincible. Even tanks have trouble smashing through nearly 95% resistance that gunlogis get with 2 hardeners. Tankers...the good ones...exploring this by causing their enemy to prematurely activate their hardeners and then lure them into an ambush or per sue them when they're weak. It's very possible for a gunlogi rail to solo a blaster Maddy at <15m this way. Also take into account that tanks charge when they see red because they know that they can win. This is just too easy to exploit.
I'm starting to see people do this now. Yesterday, I was killed by two people. One with a mlt swarm and the other with a wiki swarm. The mlt guy shot me and I activated my hardeners. When my hardeners cut off, the proto swarm killed my in 0.6 seconds with two volleys from 50m because he knew I couldn't run away at that range. It was beautiful, honestly. I did my best and he knew what I would do, so he won. It was tactics on both of our sides. People need to learn how to read the battlefield. Tanks are easier to kill than ever, but one must wait for their hardeners to shut down. It's really that simple. Stop the QQ and adapt just like the true tankers did every patch.
Oo
Yeah some AV have wised up. Even myself, if I'm facing another gunnlogi and am running missiles, will WAIT for the hardener to drop.
As soon as that thing drops, they are toast.
I like that AV tactic.
Nuff Said
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Tebu Gan
Dem Durrty Boyz Renegade Alliance
316
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Slag Emberforge wrote:If it takes having 9-12 seconds of unobstructed LOS to Kill you if your hardeners are already down and you don't have reppers, how is that balanced?
Generally good tank fits require me to reload my tier 4 prof 4 double complex modded AFG to kill them with hardeners down, and with hardeners up it is futile to even attack at all. I don't know, maybe easy for us has different meanings.
It's easy for you to kill infantry, AV in under two seconds, or one direct rail hit. You can attack infantry and installations and even jump on other tanks without modules active.
I have to wait for your weak period (If you have one and aren't running 2-3 hardeners) and take upwards of 6 times as long to kill you as it takes you to kill me. And I can't flee at near LAV speeds at low health.
Dunno, I am not crying major nerf or tanks are god mode, but it certainly is not balanced.
Whatttt??
Forge guns HURT without hardeners.
Nuff Said
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Jammer Jalapeno
BIG BAD W0LVES
118
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
I enjoyed reading your story....kinda breaks my heart though
MmMmMm TanKs....delicious TanKs
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2587
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Of course there are skilled and unskilled tankers just as there are skilled and unskilled infantry.
New drivers make plenty of mistakes and lose their rides as a result. A skilled driver in a MLT can outplay an unskilled in a STD just as can occur with suits.
I'm just learning myself, and it takes time to gain the skill. Reading the forums helps, but there's no substitute for tracks on the ground. |
Jammer Jalapeno
BIG BAD W0LVES
118
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Skihids wrote:Of course there are skilled and unskilled tankers just as there are skilled and unskilled infantry.
New drivers make plenty of mistakes and lose their rides as a result. A skilled driver in a MLT can outplay an unskilled in a STD just as can occur with suits.
I'm just learning myself, and it takes time to gain the skill. Reading the forums helps, but there's no substitute for tracks on the ground.
well said sir.
MmMmMm TanKs....delicious TanKs
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CharCharOdell
1797
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:34:00 -
[20] - Quote
Atiim wrote:So basically your upset because people finally realized that they shouldn't be forced to use tactics to defeat you when you yourself aren't forced to in any way, condition, shape, or form?
so you're going back on what you said prior to 1.7? Apparently you were fine with AV not needing teamwork and now that tanks do well on their own, they're OP...but AV wasn't.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
Speaker of the Mangrove / King of QQ / Co-Founder of the Learning Coalition
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CharCharOdell
1800
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Atiim wrote:8213 wrote:The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 There was an art? Yes. Maybe you weren't around for it, but in Chrome, there were only 20 tankers in the game who could do the whole 50:0 thing ppl QQd about so much. it was hard to do it. You had to know everything at once and most of us had guys in our tank watching the map so we could never get ambushed. The balance was perfect. Now, tanking is too easy and I don't like it. AV buff isn't the answer, but a mlt tank nerf in one form or another would help.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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Flix Keptick
Red Star. EoN.
1695
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
I rail them with or without hardener (no sexual innuendo intended)
Going to stay out of AV/V debates, better for my sanity.
GÿåTank driverGÿå
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
925
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
8213 wrote:Atiim wrote:8213 wrote:The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 There was an art? Yes actually. Good tankers really did exist. It took investment and gameskill... now my grandma can do it... ^^^
I was running a Falchion with a fusion accelerator before 1.7 dropped. I'd just bounce between objectives, staying no more than half a minute at any single objective. I was even able to take out some Madrugars by speeding around to flank them from behind with proto missiles.
My largest cause of death was actually from OBs because I'd sit at an objective for too long killing infantry as they continued to spawn.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2295
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Atiim wrote:So basically your upset because people finally realized that they shouldn't be forced to use tactics to defeat you when you yourself aren't forced to in any way, condition, shape, or form? so you're going back on what you said prior to 1.7? Apparently you were fine with AV not needing teamwork and now that tanks do well on their own, they're OP...but AV wasn't. As expected.
Vehicles are OP simply because they require teamwork to destroy, yet require no teamwork to operate whatsoever.
I was perfectly fine with AV not needing teamwork because HAVs also didn't need teamwork either.
Going back on what I said? How? What I said was "AV shouldn't be required to use teamwork because HAVs aren't". Heck, I even made a thread about why it's a bad idea.
I also said that if AV should require teamwork, then HAVs should as well. Which is far from what we have as of current.
Please tell me Char. Why should AV be forced to use teamwork, when HAVs aren't?
Why should I be able to hop into a tank as a single unit and require 3-6 people to destroy me?
Why should 1>3?
Please also refrain from spew BS about vehicles requiring teamwork. As with me spending 7 months piloting tanks and having an end total of around 7mil invested (pre 1.7), you cannot tell me that they require teamwork, as they clearly don't.
But I'd love to see you try.... I'd even pay AUR for the delight.
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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DeadlyAztec11
2834
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
I was AV all the time in Chromosome. Though, it was A LOT easier back then. No scanners, tanks were easy to sneak up on and you rarely fought any infantry above standard, forget about Proto.
AV is just harder now, you have to usually run a well coordinated squad; two AV guys, two Assaults and two Logi's. That's the Dust Dream squad.
»We still have our honor!
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
925
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Atiim wrote:8213 wrote:The art of Tanking was lost after Uprising 1.7 There was an art? Yes. Maybe you weren't around for it, but in Chrome, there were only 20 tankers in the game who could do the whole 50:0 thing ppl QQd about so much. it was hard to do it. You had to know everything at once and most of us had guys in our tank watching the map so we could never get ambushed. The balance was perfect. Now, tanking is too easy and I don't like it. AV buff isn't the answer, but a mlt tank nerf in one form or another would help. Yeah, I still remember that one time I spotted a blaster Madrugar from across half the map attempting to swing around from behind my ground spawn on Manus Peak while I was railgunning from the hills. I asked my gunner to watch the tactical map for the tank and report its position. With his help, I got the jump on the Madrugar, he ended up on top of me (literally) and my railgun fired into his underside while he couldn't even hit me because he was on top of me. My gunner was closing the tactical map and when he returned, all he saw was a tank on top of us that was exploding
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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CharCharOdell
1800
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Posted - 2013.12.20 01:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
Atiim wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:Atiim wrote:So basically your upset because people finally realized that they shouldn't be forced to use tactics to defeat you when you yourself aren't forced to in any way, condition, shape, or form? so you're going back on what you said prior to 1.7? Apparently you were fine with AV not needing teamwork and now that tanks do well on their own, they're OP...but AV wasn't. As expected. Vehicles are OP simply because they require teamwork to destroy, yet require no teamwork to operate whatsoever. I was perfectly fine with AV not needing teamwork because HAVs also didn't need teamwork either. Going back on what I said? How? What I said was "AV shouldn't be required to use teamwork because HAVs aren't". Heck, I even made a thread about why it's a bad idea. I also said that if AV should require teamwork, then HAVs should as well. Which is far from what we have as of current. Please tell me Char. Why should AV be forced to use teamwork, when HAVs aren't? Why should I be able to hop into a tank as a single unit and require 3-6 people to destroy me? Why should 1>3? Please also refrain from spew BS about vehicles requiring teamwork. As with me spending 7 months piloting tanks and having an end total of around 7mil invested (pre 1.7), you cannot tell me that they require teamwork, as they clearly don't. But I'd love to see you try.... I'd even pay AUR for the delight.
You don't tank, obviously.
Also, I always run with a team. Most tanks do. 1 tank isn't an easy target...unless it's me ;)
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
925
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Posted - 2013.12.20 02:02:00 -
[28] - Quote
Atiim wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:Atiim wrote:So basically your upset because people finally realized that they shouldn't be forced to use tactics to defeat you when you yourself aren't forced to in any way, condition, shape, or form? so you're going back on what you said prior to 1.7? Apparently you were fine with AV not needing teamwork and now that tanks do well on their own, they're OP...but AV wasn't. As expected. Vehicles are OP simply because they require teamwork to destroy, yet require no teamwork to operate whatsoever. I was perfectly fine with AV not needing teamwork because HAVs also didn't need teamwork either. Going back on what I said? How? What I said was "AV shouldn't be required to use teamwork because HAVs aren't". Heck, I even made a thread about why it's a bad idea. I also said that if AV should require teamwork, then HAVs should as well. Which is far from what we have as of current. Please tell me Char. Why should AV be forced to use teamwork, when HAVs aren't? Why should I be able to hop into a tank as a single unit and require 3-6 people to destroy me? Why should 1>3? Please also refrain from spew BS about vehicles requiring teamwork. As with me spending 7 months piloting tanks and having an end total of around 7mil invested (pre 1.7), you cannot tell me that they require teamwork, as they clearly don't. But I'd love to see you try.... I'd even pay AUR for the delight. See my above post.
Sure, we can run solo, but so can the common infantryman. But of course, we like to use teamwork to make us better off. So does the common infantryman when they team up with a heavy, a logi, and an assault.
You are stubborn when you keep failing to realize the good tankers use teamwork. I will always have at least one small turret on my tank for a squad member, or even a blueberry, because it helps with anti-infantry duties. Sure some blueberries are annoying, but I've recently only been coming across decent gunners. I always prefer to be in a squad, and I always rely on them to give me enemy positions.
I've taken out many vehicles because I had my squad members point out their position and movement so I could get the jump on them from behind. I've even had cases where I knew I was going to lose a battle against a Madrugar if it was only me, but I had the squad commander drop an OB on the Madrugar while we were engaged. I was basically using myself as a lure to bait the Madrugar into a trap. In fact, I was an expensive lure because I was with my Falchion, so of course he'd bite, only to get barraged by proto missiles and bombarded from orbit.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
728
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Posted - 2013.12.20 02:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
militia tanks need to be made a bit weaker so those who skill into them feel they are getting something out of their SP investment.
I think tanks are OK now, need more time to confirm or QQ
Faction Channels for FW Staging
PIE Ground Control | Caldari Hierarchy | Turalyon | Chosen Matari
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CharCharOdell
1802
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Posted - 2013.12.20 02:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:militia tanks need to be made a bit weaker so those who skill into them feel they are getting something out of their SP investment.
I think tanks are OK now, need more time to confirm or QQ
me feelings, exactly. if the problem doesnt solve itself in 2 months, id say a tank nerf or av buff is in order.
Gùñ-é-º+¼+ò+¦GÖÑ+ú+ú+¡ GÖÑ'Ðe+ü+üGùÑ
Gùú -ä>-üð+++Ç++§<-¡<-¡ Gùó
I like railguns.
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