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Rynoceros
Rise Of Old Dudes
1628
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:23:00 -
[61] - Quote
Who knows if the balance was better in Chromosome? Nobody skilled into Forges or Swarms. All you really needed were some OP AV grenades and it was over. Unless the only spawn point was being camped by some **** loaded with OP Blasters.
Alyssa Milano.
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Atiim
Living Like Larry Schwag
2304
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: LOL How can you not say every post of yours relating to vehicles is against them?
Not every single post in regards to vehicles are against them. In fact some actually favor a buff.
However, a vast majority of my posts are against what I like to call Tank 514.
Why people assume that I hate vehicles is well beyond me; but then again I guess they have to have something to use as a personal attack against someone who doesn't believe in the "Be all, end all things" ideal.
Holy Fudgenipples!!!
MY HMG WORKS!!! IT ACTUALLY WORKS!!!
\o/
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
926
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
Atiim wrote:You like to, but are you required to? No. So should AV be required to? No.
Stubborn? How? By calling pilot's BS when they try to BS people about how vehicles (bar Dropships) require teamwork? I believe you are stubborn in the sense that none of that stuff you nor anyone else on this entire forum (since the time of my first post) have ever once even came close to mentioning how any vehicle in this game (bar Dropships) require any form of anything that would even remotely resemble or constitute teamwork in any fashion, condition, shape or form.
You still could have destroyed the Madrugar without using your squad's Warbarge Strike. You couldn't have possible ever been 100% certain that you would be destroyed by the Madrugar simply because it is a Madrugar. You have no idea the pilot's fittings, nor ability. Also, since you were using a Falchion, I'm going to assume that you were either using a Railgun or a Missile Turret. Both would have easily given you the edge over that Madrugar.
Your cowardice does not count as a reason as to why vehicles require teamwork. Nor does simply deciding to use teamwork.
Good tanker? There is no such thing. To be a "good" tanker would imply that tanks require skill beyond the activation of hardners and rotating the joysticks to control the camera and turret. Along with firing R1. Assault Rifles require more skill than tanks.
Unless by skill, you are referring to actual Skill Points. In which case, yes I would agree that piloting a tank requires immense amounts of "skill" You should stop talking so much about something you know so little about. Every decent tanker knew that a blaster Maddy would win any head-on 1v1 tank battle with a heavy rep and an active resistance, and that's exactly what I engaged in to bait them into the trap. I escaped with a bare minimum of my shields left.
Hell, you should even know that a blaster Maddy could still win if it engages a shield tank within a few seconds after even an ambush from the rear (pre 1.7). I was up against a very good and competent tanker friend of mine and I was able to sneak up on his Madrugar from the rear with missiles. He just turned around and blew me to bits before he even got to half armor.
It wasn't until I had Caldari Enforcer at level 4 that missiles were effective vs armor, but even then I had Madrugars able to withstand proto missiles and wreck me with a blaster. I've been tanking for far longer than you have, so I suggest that you stop acting as if you know more than I do.
You neglect the fact that skilled pilots use teamwork. You refuse to accept this and you try to prove your own false point. You can't always see teamwork. Just because some guy in a tank you think is alone is wrecking you doesn't mean that he isn't using teamwork to accomplish whatever he's doing. Like my previous example, the guy in the Madrugar that ended up exploding on top of me may have thought that my tank was OP allowing me to quickly confront him while in reality I had my gunner observing his every move the whole time allowing me to get the jump on him before he could ambush me
You refuse to acknowledge the skilled pilots that use teamwork. Every single post of yours that I have read demonstrates how ignorant you are of all the pilots that use teamwork to accomplish their feats.
I'm not saying that HAVs are not broken. They are broken, but just the militia ones. You are seeing all of the tank spam and you are attributing it to the lack of a teamwork requirement. The real problem is that you can get an effective tank with 0 SP which is drawing all of the FOTMers into tanks.
Stop crying for a nerf that will affect the skilled and dedicated tankers in addition to the FOTMers. Think about what's at the core of the problem and go on from there. There is a solution to this madness, but you are far from it. There is a way to discourage the FOTMers from getting militia tanks with 0 SP. But you are too stubborn and want every tanker to get the same fate as the FOTMer.
Also, let me suggest to you one final thing: stop fantasizing a world where HAVs are soloable by AV. They never were meant to be, nor will they ever be soloable again. A titan in EVE could never be brought down by a single frigate, but a swarm of frigates would kill a titan.
But you're going to argue that in EVE you're not limited to player numbers, while in Dust you are limited to 16. That's true, but when you take fleet battles, you are still limited to what you could bring. You have to delegate a certain portion of your fleet for ECM, another portion of your fleet for logistics, yet another portion of your fleet E-warfare, etc. Although your fleet size is not limited, your limiting factor is how you can divide up your fleet to fill these roles.
And the same concept applies to Dust. You have two teams, each with a 16 member count. Both teams have their roles filled out differently. One team can have more heavies than the other, or can have more vehicles than the other. This is no different than one fleet having more supercapitals than the other fleet. Fleet member count is actually very difficult to change at a moment's notice, so you are more or less stuck with what you have brought into battle. If the other fleet brought more supercapitals, well then sorry, you're screwed. In Dust, if the other team brought more vehicles than your AV can handle, sorry, you're screwed as well.
Welcome to New Eden, Atiim, where engagements don't have to be fair and balanced on a 1v1 basis.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
1427
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:55:00 -
[64] - Quote
I used to solo marauders in. Chromosome. Doing so was rewarding because. It was hard.
Tanks versus AV was in a good place if you were a forge gunner because you had to leaen to exploit the weakness of the vehiclesto win. In chromo killing a marauder tank solo was instant bragging rights. Consistently gutting madrugars and gunnlogi was a genuine bragging right.
I miss the days when it was possible but not trivial to kill a tank. But not easy.enough.to be trivial. I want the old fights back when tanks and AV were solidly matched.
A militia tank should be gankable with militia av. Not trivially, it should be.anyones game and the odds should be slltacked in the tanks favor unless the gunner.exploits the tanks weaknesses.
Advanced should match madrugar/gunnlogi
Proto should match marauders and enforcers. |
Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1531
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Posted - 2013.12.20 04:59:00 -
[65] - Quote
Atiim wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote: LOL How can you not say every post of yours relating to vehicles is against them?
Not every single post in regards to vehicles are against them. In fact some actually favor a buff. However, a vast majority of my posts are against what I like to call Tank 514. Why people assume that I hate vehicles is well beyond me; but then again I guess they have to have something to use as a personal attack against someone who doesn't believe in the "Be all, end all things" ideal. The only "buff" I've ever seen you in favor of was a price drop. The price was dropped for everything, and you don't like it.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star. EoN.
1531
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I used to solo marauders in. Chromosome. Doing so was rewarding because. It was hard.
Tanks versus AV was in a good place if you were a forge gunner because you had to leaen to exploit the weakness of the vehiclesto win. In chromo killing a marauder tank solo was instant bragging rights. Consistently gutting madrugars and gunnlogi was a genuine bragging right.
I miss the days when it was possible but not trivial to kill a tank. But not easy.enough.to be trivial. I want the old fights back when tanks and AV were solidly matched.
A militia tank should be gankable with militia av. Not trivially, it should be.anyones game and the odds should be slltacked in the tanks favor unless the gunner.exploits the tanks weaknesses.
Advanced should match madrugar/gunnlogi
Proto should match marauders and enforcers. Nobody wants the Enforcers back. They were MLT tanks with worse stats, and the price range of the Sagaris and Surya that could each have about 9000 base HP.
Infantry cries for tank changes, and they don't like them. Tell them to use vehicles, they complain, and use cars anyway
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
927
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:08:00 -
[67] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I used to solo marauders in. Chromosome. Doing so was rewarding because. It was hard.
Tanks versus AV was in a good place if you were a forge gunner because you had to leaen to exploit the weakness of the vehiclesto win. In chromo killing a marauder tank solo was instant bragging rights. Consistently gutting madrugars and gunnlogi was a genuine bragging right.
I miss the days when it was possible but not trivial to kill a tank. But not easy.enough.to be trivial. I want the old fights back when tanks and AV were solidly matched.
A militia tank should be gankable with militia av. Not trivially, it should be.anyones game and the odds should be slltacked in the tanks favor unless the gunner.exploits the tanks weaknesses.
Advanced should match madrugar/gunnlogi
Proto should match marauders and enforcers. Nobody wants the Enforcers back. They were MLT tanks with worse stats, and the price range of the Sagaris and Surya that could each have about 9000 base HP. The only thing I want back from the Falchion is the skin and the name A black and white hull with a black proto missile turret would have been a sight to fear if it had a stronger tank
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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taxi bastard
Minor Trueblood
81
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:30:00 -
[68] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:militia tanks need to be made a bit weaker so those who skill into them feel they are getting something out of their SP investment.
militia tank - 0 SP's
2 high 2 lows 4 total slots
gunnlogi/madruger
about 355k? SP in vehicle command and 35k? SP in HAV
so for approx. 390kSP you get 1 extra slot.
it takes nothing to unlock - why should it be so much better? it already has 25% more slots than the militia version which is a pretty big advantage in itself.
where real tankers SP's play off are on the duration of modules and cool downs. through SP's alone the real tanker can stay in combat longer and return to battle quicker than a grunt in a militia tank.
on my tanking alt my gunnlogi is as follows.
2 basic harders 1 large shield booster PG upgrade extra ammo
on my main
the Sica is
1 hardener 1 large shield booster PG upgrade extra ammo
both fresh without anything on cool down there should only be one winner.
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Martyr Saboteur
Amarrtyrs
4
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:50:00 -
[69] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Why weren't you running before your hardener was down?
MUDFLAPS says it best: Good tankers never ever stop moving. I saw Mudflaps solo three tanks at once today when he was ambushed I'm his. He got 4200 WP that match. Blew me and my squadmates minds...
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQTSTALLION... I AM THE STALLION
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Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2590
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Posted - 2013.12.20 14:41:00 -
[70] - Quote
I lost three MLT rail tanks on Manus peak last night despite trying to be careful. I never made it very far out of my redline in fact, despite the fact that my team held Bravo and Charlie most of the match.
The first was due to a small rail dropship. I activated hardeners after the first or second hit, but it didn't help much. He followed as I ran and continued to pound my tank until it blew. It seemed like maybe ten seconds. I probably just did a bad job driving, but it gives me hope that dropships can be tank killers.
DUST Fiend, you were in that match, was it you? |
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Justicar Karnellia
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
302
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Posted - 2013.12.20 15:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:R F Gyro wrote:Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position. I put 10+ mil in my tank. It better stomp. But these mlt tanks are too good for being 0 sp and 80k isk
Ah yes, the fallacy of "My tank costs more so should stomp" or "I have X million SP invested ,so it should be good"...
I believe if we read the post correctly we also see "my tank should take two or more people to kill"..
I think the debate has moved beyond these arguments. Now we're actually looking how to balance this atrocious mechanic that has crept into the game. If they want this to continue, they should just remove the tank limit, that's a simpler option, since we are into a zero-sum game -> Tank can kill infantry AND tanks. If Tank requires two or more infantry to kill then side with numerically superior tanks will simply dominate since the number of AV infantry is capped to 16, thereby forcing opponent to deploy tank to counter tank, and so you have an uncomfortable side-effect of the patch, whereby you have 7 tanks a side swimming around like sharks in the ocean, with infantry darting from island to island in fear with absolutely no effective counter.
I believe now the reasoning should be more on how to fix it - Vehicle capacitors? AV skill tree? more ammo types for AV? More AV weapons? Webifiers??? |
Skihids
Bullet Cluster Legacy Rising
2590
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Posted - 2013.12.20 17:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
Justicar Karnellia wrote:CharCharOdell wrote:R F Gyro wrote:Every time you explain the lengths that infantry goes through to kill your tank, while infantry know how easily your tank kills them, you undermine your own position. I put 10+ mil in my tank. It better stomp. But these mlt tanks are too good for being 0 sp and 80k isk Ah yes, the fallacy of "My tank costs more so should stomp" or "I have X million SP invested ,so it should be good"... I believe if we read the post correctly we also see "my tank should take two or more people to kill".. I think the debate has moved beyond these arguments. Now we're actually looking how to balance this atrocious mechanic that has crept into the game. If they want this to continue, they should just remove the tank limit, that's a simpler option, since we are into a zero-sum game -> Tank can kill infantry AND tanks. If Tank requires two or more infantry to kill then side with numerically superior tanks will simply dominate since the number of AV infantry is capped to 16, thereby forcing opponent to deploy tank to counter tank, and so you have an uncomfortable side-effect of the patch, whereby you have 7 tanks a side swimming around like sharks in the ocean, with infantry darting from island to island in fear with absolutely no effective counter. I believe now the reasoning should be more on how to fix it - Vehicle capacitors? AV skill tree? more ammo types for AV? More AV weapons? Webifiers???
We definately need more counters than bare DPS to counter vehicles. Even if there were a way to balance on DPS alone (which I am dubious of), it would be flat and boring play. We desperately need more options, more nuanced play, more variety. Let's have webifiers, vehicle caps and the eWar that goes with it.
DUST needs more counter play than, "Get a bigger gun" |
Korvin Lomont
United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION
388
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Posted - 2013.12.20 17:39:00 -
[73] - Quote
CharCharOdell wrote:Tanks were actually harder to kill in chrome. Tanks would cycle 2-3 hardeners and a booster. There was no period of weakness. It took teams of AV working together to kill a tank and those who knew what they were doing, did it regularly. I remember being in a 2.25mil tank chasing down a helpless grunt...into an ambush. All around me F-45s, proximines, swarms, and forges started ripping my 20,000 ehp tank to shreds. I had all my hardness on and got away with 500 armor. I thought I was safe, then a yolo nade hit me and I lost 2.25mil. AV understood that tankers who know their art follow a set doctrine developed over time. By understanding their prey, they could exploit its weakness.
Post 1.0 and before 1.7, people got used to soloing tanks. It was extremely easy. So much so that all it did was breed the best tankers Dust has ever seen and likely ever will. The weak links have been washed out and all that remains are <20 fierce death machines who, in a duel, are the only people cape able of killing eachother. That aside, tanks seem OP because everyone was used to being able to solo them. Now it isn't possible if the tank is running hardeners and can smash through anything for <1min. Then it's glass. The infantry make the mistake of engaging during the strong periods and thus, seem like the tank is invincible. Even tanks have trouble smashing through nearly 95% resistance that gunlogis get with 2 hardeners. Tankers...the good ones...exploring this by causing their enemy to prematurely activate their hardeners and then lure them into an ambush or per sue them when they're weak. It's very possible for a gunlogi rail to solo a blaster Maddy at <15m this way. Also take into account that tanks charge when they see red because they know that they can win. This is just too easy to exploit.
I'm starting to see people do this now. Yesterday, I was killed by two people. One with a mlt swarm and the other with a wiki swarm. The mlt guy shot me and I activated my hardeners. When my hardeners cut off, the proto swarm killed my in 0.6 seconds with two volleys from 50m because he knew I couldn't run away at that range. It was beautiful, honestly. I did my best and he knew what I would do, so he won. It was tactics on both of our sides. People need to learn how to read the battlefield. Tanks are easier to kill than ever, but one must wait for their hardeners to shut down. It's really that simple. Stop the QQ and adapt just like the true tankers did every patch.
Well HAV's in Chromosome where slightly OP thats why they get the nerf in Uprsing leading to a situation where all of a sudden the HAV pilot needed Teamwork and smart play. Now CCP simply reverting things alongside with an AV nerf to make even the dumbest Pilot does not loose his tank to AV (and still they do).
But to please even those who really put some effort in loosing their tanks CCP dropped the price tag so these pilots do not need to worry at all...
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