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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
188
   |
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
How, in any way, does this "kill forge guns"? I have standard forge guns competing with proto rails for direct hit damage, and simply making them visible to vehicles is killing them?
Vehicles need some sort of warning that they are about to be hit by AV. This lets them activate their hardeners, and survive the incoming damage for a limited time. Once there hardeners wear off, they must retreat or be destroyed. What's the point of having hardeners if we have no warning that we are being targeted? Especially dropships; they absolutely need a warning, since they have no viable cover to hide behind, save their hardeners.
Forge guns will still be able to kill vehicles. Just not all the time as they do now. |
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:And I just realized, that with this kind of an early warning system, our hardeners will be equivalent to flares or smoke screens. Instead of popping out flares, you kick in the hardener to absorb the damage. Also, the lore for swarms states that they can't be defeated by simple countermeasures, so the only other way would be to enhance your resistance against them.
Technically speaking, the flavor text of swarm launchers says that the reson they shoot multiple missiles is to defeat any countermeasures systems by overwhelming it. So countermeasures could still be implemented, but we need to see the balance of AV and vehicles after 1.7 hits, before we start adding in too many things and bogging the works down. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
|
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3933
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets.
But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking.
In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
188
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself.
Or have it to where any forge charging sets off vehicles warnings in a large radius. Have a second radius that highlights the forge gunners location, so those vehicles can use their hardener duration to either escape or retaliate.
Alternatively, have it to where the forge gun will only charge if the vehicle is being painted by the lasers. Slightly reduce charging time to account for this. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself.
Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
|
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3934
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan.
However, you must also consider that if you aren't aiming directly at the vehicle, and are in fact aiming in front of it, you will now have a pair of laser beams crossing the path of the vehicle and bouncing around due to the vibration of the charging Forge Gun. A vehicle user would have to be paying attention to catch it because again, these beams should not be like the ones from a Laser Rifle, but if they were to keep their eyes open, this would give them some warning to get their hardeners up and avoid getting alpha-striked.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Or have it to where any forge charging sets off vehicles warnings in a large radius. Have a second radius that highlights the forge gunners location, so those vehicles can use their hardener duration to either escape or retaliate. Alternatively, have it to where the forge gun will only charge if the vehicle is being painted by the lasers. Slightly reduce charging time to account for this.
For the forge to charge only while the intended "vehicle" is actually being target painted, travel time would have to be done away with. Otherwise it wouldn't be effective against moving targets or usable against infantry.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work.
As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing.
This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work.
To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan. However, you must also consider that if you aren't aiming directly at the vehicle, and are in fact aiming in front of it, you will now have a pair of laser beams crossing the path of the vehicle and bouncing around due to the vibration of the charging Forge Gun. A vehicle user would have to be paying attention to catch it because again, these beams should not be like the ones from a Laser Rifle, but if they were to keep their eyes open, this would give them some warning to get their hardeners up and avoid getting alpha-striked.
You'd have to be tactically inept to be aiming across the sight line if the "laser" is visible, which would point directly to the forge gunner, which seemed to be something that wasn't desired earlier.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
|
Heinrich Jagerblitzen
D3LTA FORC3
1101
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second.
For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets.
To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change.
TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. |
|
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3941
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 03:43:00 -
[41] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second.
For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets.
To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change.
TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with.
Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7.
As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you.
If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
382
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 04:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second.
For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets.
To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change.
TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7. As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you. If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay.
But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either.
From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
|
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3941
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 06:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second.
For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets.
To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change.
TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7. As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you. If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay. But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either. From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity.
No no no, THOSE people are the ones you should ignore. All they're doing is defending their favored asset to the detriment of any and all other issues.
My interest is in trying to promote the balance wherever possible. I mean, I remember when Dropships could orbit battlefields raining down missiles with massive splash damage with complete impunity, but I always felt really dirty when I did it.
I have no interest in returning to those days. I want AV vs Vehicles to be something that leaves both sides with a sense of satisfaction at the end of a match.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
|
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
191
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 06:15:00 -
[44] - Quote
Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote:My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second.
For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets.
To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change.
TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with.
Touche, sir. I still worry about forge guns getting one hit kills from across the map because we have no idea they are even there because they won't render at that distance. But I will see what 1.7 looks like. Still, my concerns remain. |
Harpyja
DUST University
Ivy League
863
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 06:23:00 -
[45] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either.
From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity.
The root of this whole problem is the "windows of opportunity." Vehicles have only two states they can exist in as of 1.7: hardened mode with 10k+ EHP or vulnerable mode with considerably less HP.
Shield vehicles are on the downside of this because their HP ceilings have been reduced. With the forge guns staying as they are, it will pretty much be a necessity for shield vehicles to activate hardeners moments after leaving the redline, otherwise they risk getting most, if not all of their shields blown away by one shot. They will be able to see only a few seconds of battle before running back to the redline before their hardeners deactivate.
I will also speculate about armor vehicles. They have higher HP ceilings, but their regeneration is much lower (shield boosters grant instantaneous HP boosts while armor repairers have a slow constant repair rate). A single forge gun shot on an armor vehicle won't be as dramatic as if it were on a shield vehicle, but a good chunk of armor will still go away with no means of regaining it quickly. Also with active armor resists being less than shield resists, armor will still feel a lot of damage even when hardened.
I really don't think that this can play out well if forge guns remain unchanged. I imagine it looking like this for every vehicle:
- Start out in redline
- Go towards battle
- Activate hardeners once out of the redline
- Shoot stuff for a few seconds
- Run back to the redline
- Wait for modules to cooldown
- Repeat
I believe that hardeners should be activated only when the vehicle gets targeted by AV. And in order for that to happen, we need warning systems that give us maybe a few seconds at most of a warning. This way, vehicles can remain on the battlefield for as long as they need to without being reliant on the active/cooldown cycle of the active hardeners. Only when they are needed should hardeners be activated and offer the vehicle protection as it either engages the threat or retreats.
"By His light, and His will"
- The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3941
|
Posted - 2013.12.02 06:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either.
From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity. The root of this whole problem is the "windows of opportunity." Vehicles have only two states they can exist in as of 1.7: hardened mode with 10k+ EHP or vulnerable mode with considerably less HP. Shield vehicles are on the downside of this because their HP ceilings have been reduced. With the forge guns staying as they are, it will pretty much be a necessity for shield vehicles to activate hardeners moments after leaving the redline, otherwise they risk getting most, if not all of their shields blown away by one shot. They will be able to see only a few seconds of battle before running back to the redline before their hardeners deactivate. I will also speculate about armor vehicles. They have higher HP ceilings, but their regeneration is much lower (shield boosters grant instantaneous HP boosts while armor repairers have a slow constant repair rate). A single forge gun shot on an armor vehicle won't be as dramatic as if it were on a shield vehicle, but a good chunk of armor will still go away with no means of regaining it quickly. Also with active armor resists being less than shield resists, armor will still feel a lot of damage even when hardened.
I really don't think that this can play out well if forge guns remain unchanged. I imagine it looking like this for every vehicle:
- Start out in redline
- Go towards battle
- Activate hardeners once out of the redline
- Shoot stuff for a few seconds
- Run back to the redline
- Wait for modules to cooldown
- Repeat
I believe that hardeners should be activated only when the vehicle gets targeted by AV. And in order for that to happen, we need warning systems that give us maybe a few seconds at most of a warning. This way, vehicles can remain on the battlefield for as long as they need to without being reliant on the active/cooldown cycle of the active hardeners. Only when they are needed should hardeners be activated and offer the vehicle protection as it either engages the threat or retreats.
Yes, precisely! That's actually exactly how Active Defense was set up in Battlefield 2142. You would get a lock-on warning, and then you would hit your Active Defense. For about 2-3 seconds you would be completely invulnerable, and then after that you would have a 10-12 second cooldown.
We're obviously talking different cooldowns and durations here, but the idea remains the same: even with such a warning you can still use AV weapons to force a vehicle to activate their hardeners and then attack when they go down. You can even keep hitting them while they're up to try and herd them into traps.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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kickin six
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2013.12.02 09:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Players stand out in the open firing away or drive their tank in position to see us even when they know we're an FG. Why? Greed, just having fun, don't know any better. Who knows but it happens.
I look at the FG as an equalizer to a tank parked on a hill firing down into a crowd or parking in front of a cannon daring someone to make a run at it.
As FGs we radiate an orb of light, we're slogging around in a heavy suit and have limited rounds and we still manage to score a few kills. Laser, no laser. Makes no difference. We'll adapt. |
Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3944
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Posted - 2013.12.02 12:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
kickin six wrote:Players stand out in the open firing away or drive their tank in position to see us even when they know we're an FG. Why? Greed, just having fun, don't know any better. Who knows but it happens.
I look at the FG as an equalizer to a tank parked on a hill firing down into a crowd or parking in front of a cannon daring someone to make a run at it.
As FGs we radiate an orb of light, we're slogging around in a heavy suit and have limited rounds and we still manage to score a few kills. Laser, no laser. Makes no difference. We'll adapt.
As well, if the HAV isn't moving, you can even more easily employ the Laser Rifle tactic.
Charge the shot completely while aiming at the ground or some piece of cover, then line up and release the moment your reticule turns red. He'll have barely a second to activate his hardeners and will most likely take full damage from the shot.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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4447
Resolution XIII
889
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Posted - 2013.12.02 12:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
Your anti person weapon isn't just good at kill mid to long distance, Now it's better at long to even long distance.
Troll, For lifeGǪ But maybe a dragon, uh a bigger dragon.
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3946
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Posted - 2013.12.02 21:54:00 -
[50] - Quote
4447 wrote:Your anti person weapon isn't just good at kill mid to long distance, Now it's better at long to even long distance.
I'm confused as to what you're saying here.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Ivy Zalinto
Bobbit's Hangmen
63
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Posted - 2013.12.02 22:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x
Dedicated scout.
Caldari loyalist.
Pistol supremacy.
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Ivy Zalinto
Bobbit's Hangmen
63
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Posted - 2013.12.02 22:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
kickin six wrote:Players stand out in the open firing away or drive their tank in position to see us even when they know we're an FG. Why? Greed, just having fun, don't know any better. Who knows but it happens.
I look at the FG as an equalizer to a tank parked on a hill firing down into a crowd or parking in front of a cannon daring someone to make a run at it.
As FGs we radiate an orb of light, we're slogging around in a heavy suit and have limited rounds and we still manage to score a few kills. Laser, no laser. Makes no difference. We'll adapt.
Light or even the player doesnt render alot of the time when I've been in a tank. Idk if its a bug or a balance thing but I definitely dont get to snipe with my railgun any longer.
However when I play scout I have no issues seeing the player at long range with my plasma cannon or pistol. Doesn't seem like much of an equalizer, so much as a weapon to run off a tank that can only take a few hits from a weapon it cant see. Hell I dont even see the glow anymore the majority of the time.
Dedicated scout.
Caldari loyalist.
Pistol supremacy.
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3952
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Posted - 2013.12.02 22:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Ivy Zalinto wrote:This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x
The idea would be for the intensity to be similar to that picture, and it would be made more visible by the beams projecting from the weapon itself. It already vibrates while charging, so that would be transmitted to the lasers and make them "dance" as the charge progressed, thereby alerting the vehicle user even if they weren't directly painting the hull.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI
7283
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Posted - 2013.12.03 03:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
I want!
Gû¦Gû+Supreme emperor god-kingpÇÉKAGEH¦PSHIpÇæ// Lord of the threads // Forum alt Gû¦Gû+
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Ivy Zalinto
Bobbit's Hangmen
65
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Posted - 2013.12.03 04:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Ivy Zalinto wrote:This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x The idea would be for the intensity to be similar to that picture, and it would be made more visible by the beams projecting from the weapon itself. It already vibrates while charging, so that would be transmitted to the lasers and make them "dance" as the charge progressed, thereby alerting the vehicle user even if they weren't directly painting the hull.
As long as its highly visible to people and they fix the rendering issues for the vehicles it could be very good honestly.
Dedicated scout.
Caldari loyalist.
Pistol supremacy.
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Mobius Wyvern
Guardian Solutions
DARKSTAR ARMY
3955
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Posted - 2013.12.03 05:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Ivy Zalinto wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Ivy Zalinto wrote:This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x The idea would be for the intensity to be similar to that picture, and it would be made more visible by the beams projecting from the weapon itself. It already vibrates while charging, so that would be transmitted to the lasers and make them "dance" as the charge progressed, thereby alerting the vehicle user even if they weren't directly painting the hull. As long as its highly visible to people and they fix the rendering issues for the vehicles it could be very good honestly.
That's what I would hope.
Personally, having used the weapon myself and having been on the receiving end of it more than once as well, I think this one change could provide the balance that seems to be lacking without reducing any of the stats of the weapon.
Again though, as CPM Hans said, we have to take 1.7 into account as well. The changes coming in that patch may render this suggestion obsolete. I don't think it likely that that will be entirely the case, but I recognize the possibility.
Amidst the blue skies
A link from past to future
The sheltering wings of the protector
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Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2013.12.03 05:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
And perhaps vehicles could pick up on this energy and have an audio warning. As long as we have time to turn our hardeners on and take the hits. |
Ivy Zalinto
Bobbit's Hangmen
69
|
Posted - 2013.12.03 05:44:00 -
[58] - Quote
Didnt there use to be a lock warning with dropships? I could have sworn their used to be.
But yes if rendering is fixed to the proper ranges, I can see my railfuns being feasable again. I mean, its supposed to be emulating a 120 mm cannon shell hitting based on energy...how the **** am I supposed to hit something thats not even on the screen with that pathetic excuse for splash radius from more than 40 feet away.
Dedicated scout.
Caldari loyalist.
Pistol supremacy.
|
Alena Ventrallis
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
205
|
Posted - 2013.12.03 05:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ivy Zalinto wrote:Didnt there use to be a lock warning with dropships? I could have sworn their used to be.
But yes if rendering is fixed to the proper ranges, I can see my railfuns being feasable again. I mean, its supposed to be emulating a 120 mm cannon shell hitting based on energy...how the **** am I supposed to hit something thats not even on the screen with that pathetic excuse for splash radius from more than 40 feet away.
I,m going off topic, but I think splash should be reduced to near nothing, to emphasize its use as AV. Of course after we see how 1.7 plays out. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
League of Infamy
389
|
Posted - 2013.12.03 06:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think.
The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot.
Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner?
And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario.
Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on.
Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners.
Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger.
Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds.
The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
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