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Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 381	Posted - 2013.12.02 00:06:00 - [1] - Quote This is just too funny. How many of you have actually used a forge gun to shoot at infantry? Be honest. I doubt few, if any of you know anything about the drawbacks of forge gunning, much less being a heavy. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 01:48:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Roger Cordill wrote: Or it can get big vapor trail that lasts for a bit? The idea here is to telegraph the shot before it lands for wrecking damage. Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: This is just too funny. How many of you have actually used a forge gun to shoot at infantry? Be honest. I doubt few, if any of you know anything about the drawbacks of forge gunning, much less being a heavy. This is more aimed at vehicles than infantry, but this change just like a splash radius reduction that your signature describes would have little effect on using the Forge to kill infantry at short-medium range, if that's what you're worried about. Personally, if you're scoring direct hits on infantry even with the shake on that weapon, I figure you deserve them. I understand that it's aimed mostly at vehicles but this would be the same as asking that all direct fire weapons get something to tell the target that the weapon is being aimed in their general direction and in what direction the threat lies. As for the suggestion that the "laser sight" does nothing for the forge gunner, then why would a forge gunner install one. No-one in their right mind would install something on a weapon that would possibly assist their target without giving themselves a consistent benefit. If the "laser sight" with on target indicator came about, forge sniping slow and stationary infantry would be so much easier. Unfortunately, I'd feel that those kills would be cheap. Doesn't mean I would stop as I still have to earn ISK and SP, but it wouldn't be as much fun. When it comes to killing infantry, I enjoy the current challenge and thrill of earning the kills I make, especially when I'm cleaning snipers off of the rings (from the other side of the complex) or manage to take out an assault sprinting along 200+ meters away. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:15:00 - [3] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: "The laser feeds data to the onboard computer that adjusts for the target material and range, ensuring a solid hit." Add this flavor text to the forge gun description, and viola. Laser that doesn't help out forge gunners, but is visible for vehicles and infantry. Alternatively, this laser can mark only vehicles, making forge guns an AV only weapon, just like the swarm launcher is. In any case, the ability to see where a forge gunner is immensely helps out vehicles, especially with the emphasis on hardeners now. But that addition implies that the laser does supply a benefit by helping to optimize damage, which it doesn't, and it does not imply that it will prevent the forge from firing if the target isn't "painted". Still, if this was to be done, then every direct fire weapon should have a system that does the exact same thing for the target and all weapons should be adjusted to have a max range travel time to match the forge. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:34:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: "The laser feeds data to the onboard computer that adjusts for the target material and range, ensuring a solid hit." Add this flavor text to the forge gun description, and viola. Laser that doesn't help out forge gunners, but is visible for vehicles and infantry. Alternatively, this laser can mark only vehicles, making forge guns an AV only weapon, just like the swarm launcher is. In any case, the ability to see where a forge gunner is immensely helps out vehicles, especially with the emphasis on hardeners now. But that addition implies that the laser does supply a benefit by helping to optimize damage, which it doesn't. Still, if this was to be done, then every direct fire weapon should have a system that does the exact same thing for the target and all weapons should be adjusted to have a max range travel time to match the forge. As long as all weapons can deal the same alpha damage as a forge gun. It would be optimizing damage, to the damage values it has now. We pretend the laser has been there all along, but we weren't acknowledging its existence. The other weapons wouldn't need a laser for optimization, their mechanisms for accuracy are optics, such as ACOGs and iron sights. Whereas the forge gun has no optic, since its so massive. Therefore, this laser would represent that optic lore-wise, but gameplay-wise, it would serve as an identifier for vehicles to get their hardeners turned on. Sure. Give them the same rate of fire and ammo capacity with no ability to carry equipment, a giant hit box and slow movement. Easier yet. Make the game vehicles and forges only. If the forge got nerfed this hard with this suggestion, then it should be applied to all direct fire weapons with the addition of matching max range travel times. After all, what's good for one direct fire weapon should be good for them all. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:48:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: "The laser feeds data to the onboard computer that adjusts for the target material and range, ensuring a solid hit." Add this flavor text to the forge gun description, and viola. Laser that doesn't help out forge gunners, but is visible for vehicles and infantry. Alternatively, this laser can mark only vehicles, making forge guns an AV only weapon, just like the swarm launcher is. In any case, the ability to see where a forge gunner is immensely helps out vehicles, especially with the emphasis on hardeners now. But that addition implies that the laser does supply a benefit by helping to optimize damage, which it doesn't. Still, if this was to be done, then every direct fire weapon should have a system that does the exact same thing for the target and all weapons should be adjusted to have a max range travel time to match the forge. As long as all weapons can deal the same alpha damage as a forge gun. It would be optimizing damage, to the damage values it has now. We pretend the laser has been there all along, but we weren't acknowledging its existence. The other weapons wouldn't need a laser for optimization, their mechanisms for accuracy are optics, such as ACOGs and iron sights. Whereas the forge gun has no optic, since its so massive. Therefore, this laser would represent that optic lore-wise, but gameplay-wise, it would serve as an identifier for vehicles to get their hardeners turned on. Sure. Give them the same rate of fire and ammo capacity with no ability to carry equipment, a giant hit box and slow movement. Easier yet. Make the game vehicles and forges only. If the forge got nerfed this hard with this suggestion, then it should be applied to all direct fire weapons with the addition of matching max range travel times. After all, what's good for one direct fire weapon should be good for them all. Then, conversely, we should reduce the forge guns damage, to bring it in line. Either you deal way less damage, or you keep your incredible alpha, but we can see it coming. Sarcasm aside, Suppose if a vehicle is hit by this laser, a warning alarm sounds, and marks the forge gunner aiming at them? This would make only the vehicle that's in danger warning, meaning the forge gunner isn't highlighted for everyone, and gives any vehicle, especially dropships, an easy indicator where the shot is coming from, and time to get their hardeners activated. Ultimate solution... All weapons are one hit kill on all targets. When a target is aimed at, the target gets a one second warning before the shot goes off to give them a chance to turn on their "save my @$$" module. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the purpose of this idea is a desire to nerf the forge gun into oblivion by ensuring that it's nearly, if not completely, ineffective as an AV weapon. To say otherwise would just be a blatant and obvious lie. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:50:00 - [6] - Quote Harpyja wrote: And I just realized, that with this kind of an early warning system, our hardeners will be equivalent to flares or smoke screens. Instead of popping out flares, you kick in the hardener to absorb the damage. Also, the lore for swarms states that they can't be defeated by simple countermeasures, so the only other way would be to enhance your resistance against them. This isn't about killing swarms with a lock on and fire function, They're almost dead anyway. It's about killing the forge that has a manually targetted direct fire function. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:06:00 - [7] - Quote Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:21:00 - [8] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:25:00 - [9] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Or have it to where any forge charging sets off vehicles warnings in a large radius. Have a second radius that highlights the forge gunners location, so those vehicles can use their hardener duration to either escape or retaliate. Alternatively, have it to where the forge gun will only charge if the vehicle is being painted by the lasers. Slightly reduce charging time to account for this. For the forge to charge only while the intended "vehicle" is actually being target painted, travel time would have to be done away with. Otherwise it wouldn't be effective against moving targets or usable against infantry. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:27:00 - [10] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan. However, you must also consider that if you aren't aiming directly at the vehicle, and are in fact aiming in front of it, you will now have a pair of laser beams crossing the path of the vehicle and bouncing around due to the vibration of the charging Forge Gun. A vehicle user would have to be paying attention to catch it because again, these beams should not be like the ones from a Laser Rifle, but if they were to keep their eyes open, this would give them some warning to get their hardeners up and avoid getting alpha-striked. You'd have to be tactically inept to be aiming across the sight line if the "laser" is visible, which would point directly to the forge gunner, which seemed to be something that wasn't desired earlier. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.

Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 382	Posted - 2013.12.02 04:40:00 - [11] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second. For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets. To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change. TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7. As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you. If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay. But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either. From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 06:35:00 - [12] - Quote I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think. The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot. Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner? And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario. Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on. Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners. Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger. Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:45:00 - [13] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think. The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot. Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner? And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario. Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on. Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners. Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger. Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds. What we're still talking about here is something faint that you have to be looking for to see. In a firefight, you're going to be more concerned with bullet trails than with trying to find those. However, if a vehicle driver pays good attention, he will notice this telltale sign and turn his hardeners on. At that point, if the Forger cuts off his weapon, the beam goes away, and people are left only with a rough approximation of where he was, since the hardener effects are fairly easy to see. As well, if this kind of mechanic was instant death, I wouldn't have been able to chain 5 vehicle kills with the Spartan Laser in Halo 3, which uses almost exactly the same mechanic I describe here. It's a likely scenario whether you think so or not. It won't happen all the time, but it will happen. Spartan laser, which operates like the assault forge, has practically no travel time. Hitting a wraith/scorpion down range does not require one to lead the target. Halo tanks don't have hardeners and their shield reps aren't very effective. Also, Halo supports lone wolf play. You also fail to mention how the Spartan laser allows you to solo a tank in two to four hits depending on shot placement. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:57:00 - [14] - Quote So far, in this thread, vehicle players want... * A 30% reduction in range. * 5% to 20% reduction to forge damage. * A proximity forge charging alert of unspecified range. * A visible laser that does nothing for the forger, can point the heavy out (to those who see the beam) for easy elimination, and triggers and alert on beam contact. If this were to happen, the forge would likely become nearly extinct. Most, if not all, vehicle pilots would then do a joyful jig as forgers redirect into another role, so that they can once again be effective at something, or quit because their enjoyment of the Dust was killed. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:19:00 - [15] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So far, in this thread, vehicle players want... * A 30% reduction in range. * 5% to 20% reduction to forge damage. * A proximity forge charging alert of unspecified range. * A visible laser that does nothing for the forger, can point the heavy out (to those who see the beam) for easy elimination, and triggers and alert on beam contact. If this were to happen, the forge would likely become nearly extinct. Most, if not all, vehicle pilots would then do a joyful jig as forgers redirect into another role, so that they can once again be effective at something, or quit because their enjoyment of the Dust was killed. Clearly, we stated we want all of these things at once. Forges should either take a nerf in damage, so we can survive the first shot with enough hp to make our hardeners worth it, or we implement a system to let us know a forge shot is imminent so we can activate our hardeners, so we can have enough hp to make our hardeners worth it. At the end of the day, I could have a hardener that resists 90% of all damage, but what use is it if I have negligible hp left? Just thought about this. Forges get an increase in charge time. Say... 10 seconds, which gives vehicles an appreciable amount of time to get their hardeners up and shield reps running if need be. No other changes. Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:14:00 - [16] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:45:00 - [17] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 09:32:00 - [18] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. [11:44:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: small rails are the only thing I know of that had a limit on damage against vehicles [11:45:01 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: I've downed dropships before with the commando, solo [11:45:18 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: Stripping shields with impscram and lobbying mass driver rounds [11:45:22 PM] Midnight(Mobius): Yeah, I had a feeling this guy was misinterpreting what that meant [11:45:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: so small arms definitely do just fine That's actually your efficiency rating based on range. If the vehicle has hardeners on, that percentage will reflect that. They have no base resistance to damage. My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:52:00 - [19] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Sorry I got personal, I really try to avoid that. If you can get above 25% damage on a dropship or HAV with small arms, I'd like to know which weapon so I can start using it on my alt. And the plasma cannon doesn't count as a small arms weapon. LOL The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.05 22:46:00 - [20] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.

Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.07 01:40:00 - [21] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Just saw the forge numbers. It's almost what it was pre release, with shorter range. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 399	Posted - 2013.12.11 03:38:00 - [22] - Quote So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 409	Posted - 2013.12.11 21:28:00 - [23] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? Didn't I say in my post that 1.7 would determine whether this was necessary or not? I will however point out that most of the issues with "Ludicrous-Speed" on HAVs are coming from the Militia Nitrous module being bugged, and providing a 100% boost to speed and acceleration rather than 10%. I spoke with several long-time Forge Gunners yesterday who reported no problems killing HAVs after their hardeners went down. Of course, as soon as the bugged module came to be widely know about, EVERYONE started fitting them, and you now have the Speeder-Tanks. Well curse my bad luck then because I never seem to catch a HAV with it's hardeners stuck on cooldown. Forge shot hits and instant hardener. Then zoom! Away it goes. Anyway, all I did was ask if most HAV pilots were getting constantly destroyed by forge gunners like many were predicting was going to happen. Introducing the latest in heavy anti infantry weaponry. The Forge Gun.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 430	Posted - 2013.12.14 10:52:00 - [24] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Ooh! What if forge guns could only charge if the laser was on an acceptable target? Which then means the vehicles can pick up their signals! Then they can be shown on the minimap! Never used a forge gun have you? I still can't find tanks on the market. All I see are those HAVs.

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