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Sighting Lasers for the Forge Gun

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Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3915	Posted - 2013.12.01 20:59:00 - [1] - Quote http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/dust/news.control/8734/1/CA_ForgeGun_Blog.jpg You see those lasers coming out of the sight on the top of the gun? Why not have those be an in-game element? To further explain, there would be a pair of faint blue lasers that come out of the Forge Gun while it is charging, similar to the "tell-tale" laser beam that would come out of the Spartan Laser in the Halo series. This would allow for both infantry and vehicles to see that a Forge Gun was about to fire on them, and allow them to evade or activate hardeners respectively. Also, just like the Laser Rifle, the Forge Gunner could charge their shot and then only line up the crosshair at the last second to give their target less warning. This way the Forge Gun becomes a more balanced weapon without any need for damage or splash reductions or a decrease in range. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3921	Posted - 2013.12.01 21:46:00 - [2] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: That's like... The perfect counter to their immense power. I think the most important part is that it does nothing to reduce their power. It merely makes it a bit more of a fair fight. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3927	Posted - 2013.12.02 01:11:00 - [3] - Quote Niina Eskola wrote: I like the idea, BUT I feel like this would increase forge gun snipers by a lot now that they'd have a laser sight. The idea is that the lasers themselves would be about useless to the person with the gun. This would not involve any magnification or adjustment of the reticule. In essence, it would have no effect on aiming the weapon at all. Another important factor is that these lasers would only be projected from the weapon during the charging sequence. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3927	Posted - 2013.12.02 01:18:00 - [4] - Quote Roger Cordill wrote: Or it can get big vapor trail that lasts for a bit? The idea here is to telegraph the shot before it lands for wrecking damage. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3933	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:34:00 - [5] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: "The laser feeds data to the onboard computer that adjusts for the target material and range, ensuring a solid hit." Add this flavor text to the forge gun description, and viola. Laser that doesn't help out forge gunners, but is visible for vehicles and infantry. Alternatively, this laser can mark only vehicles, making forge guns an AV only weapon, just like the swarm launcher is. In any case, the ability to see where a forge gunner is immensely helps out vehicles, especially with the emphasis on hardeners now. But that addition implies that the laser does supply a benefit by helping to optimize damage, which it doesn't. Still, if this was to be done, then every direct fire weapon should have a system that does the exact same thing for the target and all weapons should be adjusted to have a max range travel time to match the forge. As long as all weapons can deal the same alpha damage as a forge gun. It would be optimizing damage, to the damage values it has now. We pretend the laser has been there all along, but we weren't acknowledging its existence. The other weapons wouldn't need a laser for optimization, their mechanisms for accuracy are optics, such as ACOGs and iron sights. Whereas the forge gun has no optic, since its so massive. Therefore, this laser would represent that optic lore-wise, but gameplay-wise, it would serve as an identifier for vehicles to get their hardeners turned on. Effectively, yes. Actually, this could easily be combined with the concept presented here to implement an audible lock-on warning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_gqG4bNaeo Indicating the shooter on your screen and on your map may be a little too much, but offering an audible warning like he suggests could also be initiated by the "aiming lasers" contacting your vehicle, thus allowing you to still have the warning even if you don't constantly drive around in 3rd person. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3933	Posted - 2013.12.02 02:43:00 - [6] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: "The laser feeds data to the onboard computer that adjusts for the target material and range, ensuring a solid hit." Add this flavor text to the forge gun description, and viola. Laser that doesn't help out forge gunners, but is visible for vehicles and infantry. Alternatively, this laser can mark only vehicles, making forge guns an AV only weapon, just like the swarm launcher is. In any case, the ability to see where a forge gunner is immensely helps out vehicles, especially with the emphasis on hardeners now. But that addition implies that the laser does supply a benefit by helping to optimize damage, which it doesn't. Still, if this was to be done, then every direct fire weapon should have a system that does the exact same thing for the target and all weapons should be adjusted to have a max range travel time to match the forge. As long as all weapons can deal the same alpha damage as a forge gun. It would be optimizing damage, to the damage values it has now. We pretend the laser has been there all along, but we weren't acknowledging its existence. The other weapons wouldn't need a laser for optimization, their mechanisms for accuracy are optics, such as ACOGs and iron sights. Whereas the forge gun has no optic, since its so massive. Therefore, this laser would represent that optic lore-wise, but gameplay-wise, it would serve as an identifier for vehicles to get their hardeners turned on. Effectively, yes. Actually, this could easily be combined with the concept presented here to implement an audible lock-on warning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_gqG4bNaeo Indicating the shooter on your screen and on your map may be a little too much, but offering an audible warning like he suggests could also be initiated by the "aiming lasers" contacting your vehicle, thus allowing you to still have the warning even if you don't constantly drive around in 3rd person. It's perfectly reasonable for the vehicle to detect such EM radiation used for targeting systems and then offer a warning that it is being locked onto or tracked. Precisely! That's exactly what warning systems on aircraft and tanks do, after all. One would think that this far in the future we would have similar systems. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3933	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:11:00 - [7] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3934	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:23:00 - [8] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ok. I'll stop playing around here and tell you why this wouldn't work. As a forge gun has travel time, we forge gunners are never aiming directly at our target when the shot is fired if the target is moving. We're trying to calculate range, speed, and direction in an attempt to predict where the target will be and hoping that we get it right. If the target is stationary, we'd merely counter this by aiming somewhere near the target rather than at the target then adjust our aim a mere fraction of a second before firing. This is the real reason why your laser assist to the tell the target we're about to shoot them won't work. To make this idea work, travel time would have to be done away with. The forge would have to become a hit-scan weapon then we'd still counter it by using the method stated above for dealing with stationary targets. But see, that's the point. There's less risk of a direct hit while the vehicle is moving, and the ability to charge without pointing at the vehicle is a way for skilled AV players to try and minimize the warning to the vehicle they're attacking. In addition, there's a pretty good chance that you'll get at least a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up, even while the target is moving. I have used Forges fairly extensively myself. Forges are all I do and, for any forge gunner worth his salt, the chance of "a passing swipe of those beams across the vehicle while the shot is being set up" will be minuscule to none. So in essence, there would be no noticeable change unless the forge was made hit-scan. However, you must also consider that if you aren't aiming directly at the vehicle, and are in fact aiming in front of it, you will now have a pair of laser beams crossing the path of the vehicle and bouncing around due to the vibration of the charging Forge Gun. A vehicle user would have to be paying attention to catch it because again, these beams should not be like the ones from a Laser Rifle, but if they were to keep their eyes open, this would give them some warning to get their hardeners up and avoid getting alpha-striked. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3941	Posted - 2013.12.02 03:43:00 - [9] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second. For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets. To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change. TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7. As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you. If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3941	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:12:00 - [10] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: My thoughts are this - its a clever idea and works to some degree, and I really don't mind giving infantry a disclaimer (which is what this would be, a "you don't get to complain now cuz laser") so that I could resume blapping them in one hit anyways. But I think that's just it: the ones that stand in the open stationary are dumb and going to die anyways, and the ones sprinting across the open from danger are not going to stop mid sprint and reverse because they see a faint blue laser a few meters in front of them, while sprinting several meters per second. For vehicles though - the role that the Forge Gun was designed for first and foremost, I fear this could be a disaster in 1.7 depending on how it plays when we get our hands on it. The whole "windows of opportunity" design and the fact that it'll be fairly easy to create a hardened state that cannot be soloed - means that even weapons as strong as Forge Guns will ONLY be getting their kills stacked while shooting at unhardened targets. To me, all the cards on the table point to the element of surprise being absolutely crucial to the A/V game. Remote explosives. Proximity explosives. Grenade gangbang ambushes. Breach Forge guns in pairs. Swarm users in triplets. Or, just plain shooting a tank in the back while its driving down the map looking somewhere else. However you look at it - giving vehicles a chance to go into ubermode and than sail away on their new juiced up engines seems like a pretty bad idea on paper, given what we know about how this is going to change. TL,DR: Warning lasers would be great for allowing FG users to have our cake and eat it too where blapping infantry are concerned, but could be downright broken in 1.7. Consider my opinion highly neutral/skeptical until we have more information about what we're actually dealing with. Agreed. This discussion is somewhat aimed at the current state of Dust rather than at what it will be after 1.7. As much as I like this idea, I'm a strong proponent of the "wait and see" camp in as many cases as I can force myself to be objective and not jump to conclusions, so I'm right there with you. If it turns out the Forge Gun still represents an issue after 1.7, I'd just much rather see a change like this than a "nerf", persay. But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either. From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity. No no no, THOSE people are the ones you should ignore. All they're doing is defending their favored asset to the detriment of any and all other issues. My interest is in trying to promote the balance wherever possible. I mean, I remember when Dropships could orbit battlefields raining down missiles with massive splash damage with complete impunity, but I always felt really dirty when I did it. I have no interest in returning to those days. I want AV vs Vehicles to be something that leaves both sides with a sense of satisfaction at the end of a match. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3941	Posted - 2013.12.02 06:28:00 - [11] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: But in all things I've seen in this game, one player's "effective" is another players "issue". I've read/heard dropship/HAV pilots actually stating that infantry based AV should be an annoyance, not a legitimate threat. The "only a HAV should make me sweat" mentality. Others stating that it should take a team of at least 3+ proto forge gunners to take their single manned HAV down. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the forge gun to kill a well fit unhardened HAV in one shot, but it shouldn't take six or more with a reload delay every four shots either. From what I understand of the new system, forges may be able to take out an unhardened HAV in two to four shots (depending on the forge gun) but, while the hardeners are on, it's going to take considerably more. Catching an HAV by surprise will become a necessity. The root of this whole problem is the "windows of opportunity." Vehicles have only two states they can exist in as of 1.7: hardened mode with 10k+ EHP or vulnerable mode with considerably less HP. Shield vehicles are on the downside of this because their HP ceilings have been reduced. With the forge guns staying as they are, it will pretty much be a necessity for shield vehicles to activate hardeners moments after leaving the redline, otherwise they risk getting most, if not all of their shields blown away by one shot. They will be able to see only a few seconds of battle before running back to the redline before their hardeners deactivate. I will also speculate about armor vehicles. They have higher HP ceilings, but their regeneration is much lower (shield boosters grant instantaneous HP boosts while armor repairers have a slow constant repair rate). A single forge gun shot on an armor vehicle won't be as dramatic as if it were on a shield vehicle, but a good chunk of armor will still go away with no means of regaining it quickly. Also with active armor resists being less than shield resists, armor will still feel a lot of damage even when hardened. I really don't think that this can play out well if forge guns remain unchanged. I imagine it looking like this for every vehicle: Start out in redline Go towards battle Activate hardeners once out of the redline Shoot stuff for a few seconds Run back to the redline Wait for modules to cooldown Repeat I believe that hardeners should be activated only when the vehicle gets targeted by AV. And in order for that to happen, we need warning systems that give us maybe a few seconds at most of a warning. This way, vehicles can remain on the battlefield for as long as they need to without being reliant on the active/cooldown cycle of the active hardeners. Only when they are needed should hardeners be activated and offer the vehicle protection as it either engages the threat or retreats. Yes, precisely! That's actually exactly how Active Defense was set up in Battlefield 2142. You would get a lock-on warning, and then you would hit your Active Defense. For about 2-3 seconds you would be completely invulnerable, and then after that you would have a 10-12 second cooldown. We're obviously talking different cooldowns and durations here, but the idea remains the same: even with such a warning you can still use AV weapons to force a vehicle to activate their hardeners and then attack when they go down. You can even keep hitting them while they're up to try and herd them into traps. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3944	Posted - 2013.12.02 12:54:00 - [12] - Quote kickin six wrote: Players stand out in the open firing away or drive their tank in position to see us even when they know we're an FG. Why? Greed, just having fun, don't know any better. Who knows but it happens. I look at the FG as an equalizer to a tank parked on a hill firing down into a crowd or parking in front of a cannon daring someone to make a run at it. As FGs we radiate an orb of light, we're slogging around in a heavy suit and have limited rounds and we still manage to score a few kills. Laser, no laser. Makes no difference. We'll adapt. As well, if the HAV isn't moving, you can even more easily employ the Laser Rifle tactic. Charge the shot completely while aiming at the ground or some piece of cover, then line up and release the moment your reticule turns red. He'll have barely a second to activate his hardeners and will most likely take full damage from the shot. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3946	Posted - 2013.12.02 21:54:00 - [13] - Quote 4447 wrote: Your anti person weapon isn't just good at kill mid to long distance, Now it's better at long to even long distance. I'm confused as to what you're saying here. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3952	Posted - 2013.12.02 22:47:00 - [14] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x The idea would be for the intensity to be similar to that picture, and it would be made more visible by the beams projecting from the weapon itself. It already vibrates while charging, so that would be transmitted to the lasers and make them "dance" as the charge progressed, thereby alerting the vehicle user even if they weren't directly painting the hull. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3955	Posted - 2013.12.03 05:25:00 - [15] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Ivy Zalinto wrote: This has received alot of likes including one of my own now. This is a very good idea, they just need to make sure its visible and not freakin headlight colored x.x The idea would be for the intensity to be similar to that picture, and it would be made more visible by the beams projecting from the weapon itself. It already vibrates while charging, so that would be transmitted to the lasers and make them "dance" as the charge progressed, thereby alerting the vehicle user even if they weren't directly painting the hull. As long as its highly visible to people and they fix the rendering issues for the vehicles it could be very good honestly. That's what I would hope. Personally, having used the weapon myself and having been on the receiving end of it more than once as well, I think this one change could provide the balance that seems to be lacking without reducing any of the stats of the weapon. Again though, as CPM Hans said, we have to take 1.7 into account as well. The changes coming in that patch may render this suggestion obsolete. I don't think it likely that that will be entirely the case, but I recognize the possibility. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3959	Posted - 2013.12.03 12:53:00 - [16] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think. The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot. Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner? And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario. Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on. Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners. Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger. Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds. What we're still talking about here is something faint that you have to be looking for to see. In a firefight, you're going to be more concerned with bullet trails than with trying to find those. However, if a vehicle driver pays good attention, he will notice this telltale sign and turn his hardeners on. At that point, if the Forger cuts off his weapon, the beam goes away, and people are left only with a rough approximation of where he was, since the hardener effects are fairly easy to see. As well, if this kind of mechanic was instant death, I wouldn't have been able to chain 5 vehicle kills with the Spartan Laser in Halo 3, which uses almost exactly the same mechanic I describe here. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:05:00 - [17] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Exactly. Like I said before, the goal should be for both vehicle operators and AV users to have the same amount of fun in a match. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:29:00 - [18] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 04:46:00 - [19] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. [11:44:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: small rails are the only thing I know of that had a limit on damage against vehicles [11:45:01 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: I've downed dropships before with the commando, solo [11:45:18 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: Stripping shields with impscram and lobbying mass driver rounds [11:45:22 PM] Midnight(Mobius): Yeah, I had a feeling this guy was misinterpreting what that meant [11:45:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: so small arms definitely do just fine That's actually your efficiency rating based on range. If the vehicle has hardeners on, that percentage will reflect that. They have no base resistance to damage. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3966	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:35:00 - [20] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3966	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:07:00 - [21] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Sorry I got personal, I really try to avoid that. If you can get above 25% damage on a dropship or HAV with small arms, I'd like to know which weapon so I can start using it on my alt. And the plasma cannon doesn't count as a small arms weapon. LOL The Plasma Cannon is the worst weapon in the game at its intended role. I was kinda hoping they'd fix it for this patch, but with everything in those patch notes, I'm not going to split hairs. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3968	Posted - 2013.12.05 12:38:00 - [22] - Quote CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3973	Posted - 2013.12.05 23:36:00 - [23] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4032	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:35:00 - [24] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Just saw the forge numbers. It's almost what it was pre release, with shorter range. I'm hoping those new numbers will solve the balance issue, but I still think we might end up needing a telegraph even so. Time will tell, of course. We'll have plenty of opportunities to toss this all around tomorrow. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4034	Posted - 2013.12.10 03:45:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Judge had a good idea for balancing forge guns. Give them fall of after 100m. This gives vehicles time to approach with hardeners on, do their business, and get out. As it is, even if we do everything right, forges can still get us. I think returning their old damage and charge values and giving them the falloff he suggested would be best. Plus, it ends rooftop forging. I like that idea as well, but it's likely to get a lot of flak from Forge users. My idea was aimed at trying to make the weapon more balanced without nerfing the weapon itself. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4063	Posted - 2013.12.11 13:08:00 - [26] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? Didn't I say in my post that 1.7 would determine whether this was necessary or not? I will however point out that most of the issues with "Ludicrous-Speed" on HAVs are coming from the Militia Nitrous module being bugged, and providing a 100% boost to speed and acceleration rather than 10%. I spoke with several long-time Forge Gunners yesterday who reported no problems killing HAVs after their hardeners went down. Of course, as soon as the bugged module came to be widely know about, EVERYONE started fitting them, and you now have the Speeder-Tanks. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4065	Posted - 2013.12.11 21:36:00 - [27] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? Didn't I say in my post that 1.7 would determine whether this was necessary or not? I will however point out that most of the issues with "Ludicrous-Speed" on HAVs are coming from the Militia Nitrous module being bugged, and providing a 100% boost to speed and acceleration rather than 10%. I spoke with several long-time Forge Gunners yesterday who reported no problems killing HAVs after their hardeners went down. Of course, as soon as the bugged module came to be widely know about, EVERYONE started fitting them, and you now have the Speeder-Tanks. Well curse my bad luck then because I never seem to catch a HAV with it's hardeners stuck on cooldown. Forge shot hits and instant hardener. Then zoom! Away it goes. Anyway, all I did was ask if most HAV pilots were getting constantly destroyed by forge gunners like many were predicting was going to happen. No, they aren't, because that module is letting them do exactly what you just said. I hope they get that hotfixed quick before the raging gets any worse. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4091	Posted - 2013.12.14 18:29:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Ooh! What if forge guns could only charge if the laser was on an acceptable target? Which then means the vehicles can pick up their signals! Then they can be shown on the minimap! No, that's actually not as good an idea as it probably sounded when you posted it. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4416	Posted - 2014.01.11 02:13:00 - [29] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Still would be cool If Remnant and Wolfman's intent is to buff AV back up a bit, I think this would actually be a nice way to help maintain balance even with the stat changes. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Ahrendee Mercenaries EoN. 4431	Posted - 2014.01.11 06:18:00 - [30] - Quote Kharga Lum wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Ultimate solution... All weapons are one hit kill on all targets. When a target is aimed at, the target gets a one second warning before the shot goes off to give them a chance to turn on their "save my @$$" module. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the purpose of this idea is a desire to nerf the forge gun into oblivion by ensuring that it's nearly, if not completely, ineffective as an AV weapon. To say otherwise would just be a blatant and obvious lie. As a proto forge gun user I don't see this as a "nerf the forge gun into oblivion". If this were implemented why would I aim at my target vehicle while the weapon is charging? I'd wait until fully charged, target and release. This can be done in less time then it takes to open the radial menu and turn a hardener on. I actually think having this would improve my aim quite a bit. I wouldn't have to guess where the centre of the target box is. I'd have a laser telling me exactly where my shot is going. Why wouldn't a Forge Gunner want this? I sure as hell do. But when you lined up the shot, there would be a brief window of time where a vehicle user who was sufficiently on the ball and had good reflexes could attempt to activate a module or maneuver to defend themselves, rather than having no warning at all until the shot lands. The idea is to truly provide balance without nerfing. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

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