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Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3959	Posted - 2013.12.03 12:53:00 - [61] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think. The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot. Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner? And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario. Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on. Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners. Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger. Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds. What we're still talking about here is something faint that you have to be looking for to see. In a firefight, you're going to be more concerned with bullet trails than with trying to find those. However, if a vehicle driver pays good attention, he will notice this telltale sign and turn his hardeners on. At that point, if the Forger cuts off his weapon, the beam goes away, and people are left only with a rough approximation of where he was, since the hardener effects are fairly easy to see. As well, if this kind of mechanic was instant death, I wouldn't have been able to chain 5 vehicle kills with the Spartan Laser in Halo 3, which uses almost exactly the same mechanic I describe here. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
CEOPyrex CloneA The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 441	Posted - 2013.12.03 15:17:00 - [62] - Quote Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp?
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:45:00 - [63] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I've seen the shift in the conversation after explaining why getting a warning when the beam sweeps the target wouldn't work as well as many think. The shift has gone to a visible projected beam that yes, may allow an alert pilot to put his hardners up before getting shot. Now... Can someone come up with something that doesn't screw the forge gunner? And before anyone says it won't, here's the scenario. Forge: Starts charging, shaking laser comes on. Vehicle and infantry see the laser and put out a warning over comms. Vehicles turn on hardeners. Everyone who can see the laser, both infantry and vehicle take a half second to spot the origin of the beam and everyone who feels safe breaking away from their current actions move to attack the forger. Forger: Might get one shot off before rail turrets, snipers, and everything else in range shred his 1200+ EHP in less than .33 seconds. What we're still talking about here is something faint that you have to be looking for to see. In a firefight, you're going to be more concerned with bullet trails than with trying to find those. However, if a vehicle driver pays good attention, he will notice this telltale sign and turn his hardeners on. At that point, if the Forger cuts off his weapon, the beam goes away, and people are left only with a rough approximation of where he was, since the hardener effects are fairly easy to see. As well, if this kind of mechanic was instant death, I wouldn't have been able to chain 5 vehicle kills with the Spartan Laser in Halo 3, which uses almost exactly the same mechanic I describe here. It's a likely scenario whether you think so or not. It won't happen all the time, but it will happen. Spartan laser, which operates like the assault forge, has practically no travel time. Hitting a wraith/scorpion down range does not require one to lead the target. Halo tanks don't have hardeners and their shield reps aren't very effective. Also, Halo supports lone wolf play. You also fail to mention how the Spartan laser allows you to solo a tank in two to four hits depending on shot placement. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 21:57:00 - [64] - Quote So far, in this thread, vehicle players want... * A 30% reduction in range. * 5% to 20% reduction to forge damage. * A proximity forge charging alert of unspecified range. * A visible laser that does nothing for the forger, can point the heavy out (to those who see the beam) for easy elimination, and triggers and alert on beam contact. If this were to happen, the forge would likely become nearly extinct. Most, if not all, vehicle pilots would then do a joyful jig as forgers redirect into another role, so that they can once again be effective at something, or quit because their enjoyment of the Dust was killed. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 207	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:06:00 - [65] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So far, in this thread, vehicle players want... * A 30% reduction in range. * 5% to 20% reduction to forge damage. * A proximity forge charging alert of unspecified range. * A visible laser that does nothing for the forger, can point the heavy out (to those who see the beam) for easy elimination, and triggers and alert on beam contact. If this were to happen, the forge would likely become nearly extinct. Most, if not all, vehicle pilots would then do a joyful jig as forgers redirect into another role, so that they can once again be effective at something, or quit because their enjoyment of the Dust was killed. Clearly, we stated we want all of these things at once. Forges should either take a nerf in damage, so we can survive the first shot with enough hp to make our hardeners worth it, or we implement a system to let us know a forge shot is imminent so we can activate our hardeners, so we can have enough hp to make our hardeners worth it. At the end of the day, I could have a hardener that resists 90% of all damage, but what use is it if I have negligible hp left? Just thought about this. Forges get an increase in charge time. Say... 10 seconds, which gives vehicles an appreciable amount of time to get their hardeners up and shield reps running if need be. No other changes.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:19:00 - [66] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So far, in this thread, vehicle players want... * A 30% reduction in range. * 5% to 20% reduction to forge damage. * A proximity forge charging alert of unspecified range. * A visible laser that does nothing for the forger, can point the heavy out (to those who see the beam) for easy elimination, and triggers and alert on beam contact. If this were to happen, the forge would likely become nearly extinct. Most, if not all, vehicle pilots would then do a joyful jig as forgers redirect into another role, so that they can once again be effective at something, or quit because their enjoyment of the Dust was killed. Clearly, we stated we want all of these things at once. Forges should either take a nerf in damage, so we can survive the first shot with enough hp to make our hardeners worth it, or we implement a system to let us know a forge shot is imminent so we can activate our hardeners, so we can have enough hp to make our hardeners worth it. At the end of the day, I could have a hardener that resists 90% of all damage, but what use is it if I have negligible hp left? Just thought about this. Forges get an increase in charge time. Say... 10 seconds, which gives vehicles an appreciable amount of time to get their hardeners up and shield reps running if need be. No other changes. Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Suanar Daranaus Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2013.12.03 22:30:00 - [67] - Quote The first thing they should do Before nerfing ANY other thing in this game is Nerf the AR ! lol
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.03 23:15:00 - [68] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:05:00 - [69] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Exactly. Like I said before, the goal should be for both vehicle operators and AV users to have the same amount of fun in a match. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 02:14:00 - [70] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.

Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:29:00 - [71] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 208	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:38:00 - [72] - Quote Don't feed the troll.
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 03:45:00 - [73] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3964	Posted - 2013.12.04 04:46:00 - [74] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Where did I say that that anyone stated that they wanted all of these changes at once? Just saying that these are the "suggestions" so far and the consequences should the suggestions be heeded. But be honest. Most of the pilot players don't want any effective infantry based AV. Let's be honest. Most AV players want easy vehicle kills. No, only scrubs want easy vehicle kills. Same with vehicles. Only the scrubs want to be indestructible. The whole point is that vehicles need to be able to operate even if AV is on the field. That's the point of the new hardeners, to let us operate and withstand AV to do our jobs. The cooldown is to ensure we cant resist AV all the live-long day, just enough to get in and get out. Forge guns can wipe us out before we even know they are there, because we have a reduced hp ceiling, and our hardeners are useless if we have no hp left to harden. Shield tanks especially; one forge gun shot can eat up almost all of our hp without hardeners. What will be left to harden? Armor at least has a buffer of shield before eating into their main tank, but their reps are now passive, and therefore much slower than before. Combine this with forge guns insane range, and the fact that we will have no idea where you are until you shoot, and forge guns will make vehicles unusable, simply because we can't use our intended defenses against them in time. So either the damage should be nerfed, making shield tanks have some shield left to work their hardeners on, or we can detect forge guns charging up. Either way, the forge gun has to take a hit, just like the swarm launcher did. I personally think detection would be preferable, but either case could work, and still leave forge guns as a viable option. Part of the issue is the draw distance not being equal and consistent for everyone regardless of fitting. I really do understand the concerns that HAVs will have a tougher time on the battlefield unless the forge is made an annoyance weapon. I know pilots feel that taking a (insert vehicle type here) down with three to four hits from a slow fat heavy that has very limited ammo and can't carry hives is terrifying. I understand how awful it is for pilots to be threatened only by large turrets, forge guns, swarms, plasma cannons, AV grenades, remote explosives, and proximity mines while the threat to infantry is everything but swarms and AV grenades. I get how awful it is that all vehicles have 82% or better special damage resistance to small arms fire while all infantry has a staggering 0% special resistance to any damage type. I see where it's disheartening to move faster than any infantry on foot. Special resistance to small arms fire? Where are you getting that from? Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. [11:44:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: small rails are the only thing I know of that had a limit on damage against vehicles [11:45:01 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: I've downed dropships before with the commando, solo [11:45:18 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: Stripping shields with impscram and lobbying mass driver rounds [11:45:22 PM] Midnight(Mobius): Yeah, I had a feeling this guy was misinterpreting what that meant [11:45:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: so small arms definitely do just fine That's actually your efficiency rating based on range. If the vehicle has hardeners on, that percentage will reflect that. They have no base resistance to damage. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 09:32:00 - [75] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Aim your AR at a HAV and you'll see what percentage of your damage you'll do. It's very low due to the vehicles "special" resistance to small arms fire. [11:44:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: small rails are the only thing I know of that had a limit on damage against vehicles [11:45:01 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: I've downed dropships before with the commando, solo [11:45:18 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: Stripping shields with impscram and lobbying mass driver rounds [11:45:22 PM] Midnight(Mobius): Yeah, I had a feeling this guy was misinterpreting what that meant [11:45:35 PM] Hans Jagerblitzen: so small arms definitely do just fine That's actually your efficiency rating based on range. If the vehicle has hardeners on, that percentage will reflect that. They have no base resistance to damage. My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Heinrich Jagerblitzen D3LTA FORC3 1123	Posted - 2013.12.04 17:36:00 - [76] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks!
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3966	Posted - 2013.12.04 18:35:00 - [77] - Quote Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.04 21:52:00 - [78] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Sorry I got personal, I really try to avoid that. If you can get above 25% damage on a dropship or HAV with small arms, I'd like to know which weapon so I can start using it on my alt. And the plasma cannon doesn't count as a small arms weapon. LOL The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3966	Posted - 2013.12.04 23:07:00 - [79] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Heinrich Jagerblitzen wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: My personal experience while using an alt... DAU Scrambler at point blank into the rear panel of a HAV with no active modules was less than 25%. Same scrambler at optimal aimed at a heavy forger/HMG head was over 160% If vehicles didn't have resistance to small arms, then I'd still show over 160% to the HAV's weak point. If that doesn't prove vehicles have damage resistance against small arms, then you're too stubborn to see the truth or have no sense of basic logical deduction. To be clear - my experience and comment to Mobius was subjective, I probably shouldn't used the word "definitely" as this isn't something I've sat down and scientifically tested. You may be absolutely right, it's something I'll check myself next time I play. Thanks! Okay, fine, that one was on me. I'll test it out myself as well. Sorry I got personal, I really try to avoid that. If you can get above 25% damage on a dropship or HAV with small arms, I'd like to know which weapon so I can start using it on my alt. And the plasma cannon doesn't count as a small arms weapon. LOL The Plasma Cannon is the worst weapon in the game at its intended role. I was kinda hoping they'd fix it for this patch, but with everything in those patch notes, I'm not going to split hairs. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3968	Posted - 2013.12.05 12:38:00 - [80] - Quote CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector

Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.05 22:46:00 - [81] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 3973	Posted - 2013.12.05 23:36:00 - [82] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Shijima Kuraimaru warravens League of Infamy 389	Posted - 2013.12.07 01:40:00 - [83] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Just saw the forge numbers. It's almost what it was pre release, with shorter range. The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4032	Posted - 2013.12.10 02:35:00 - [84] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: CEOPyrex CloneA wrote: Read the OP and couldnt agree more With the changes coming to Dust in 1.7 i must admit tanking looks like its going to be a much more hit and miss game with timing being all. What i cant see (and please point me to it if i have missed it) is forge guns being changed as well? Given that forge guns can kick out 1.5k damage (prolly more) per shot and each shot on the Assault version is around 2 second intervals, that means each forge gunner who is worth a dam will be able to hit 3 shots in a row most likely, that means forge guns will hit 4.5k hp no worries and since most tanks will no longer have close to this amount of HP (right?) surely there is a disconnect there? Im sure CCP have this all worked out but atm an uninformed Joe Schmoe like me is worried vehicles are about to be nerfed incredibly when frankly its been about 6 months since i met a tank i couldnt kill in game...... Jus sayin.... Please someone reassure me there isnt some kind of disconnect here from Team A and Team B in ccp? CCP Wolfman's team is now handling both sides, and they released some updated numbers on the Forge Gun a few hours after the patch notes went up that show they're aware of the issue. The Breach Forge seems to have taken the biggest hit. At this point I'd say my idea is entirely dependent on whether the changes in 1.7 are enough. If they are, then everything is right with the world and there's no reason to worry. If not, they'll keep working at it, and hopefully consider something like this, because I agree with the people that use Forge Guns that too much of a reduction in damage or travel speed would make the weapon a bit useless. Seems far better to me to put in a "telegraph" and let it keep its killing power. And you probably wouldn't worry so much about it if they'd fix the draw distance issues so that everyone could potentially see line of sight targets at a distance 5% longer than the longest ranged weapon in the game. I think that's the large rail but could be the sniper rifle. Sure I still wouldn't be able to forge that long range sniper, but at least I'd have the chance to spot it and tell my counter sniping squad mates where it is. They mentioned fixing that bug in the Patch Notes, so hopefully that's been completely resolved. Just saw the forge numbers. It's almost what it was pre release, with shorter range. I'm hoping those new numbers will solve the balance issue, but I still think we might end up needing a telegraph even so. Time will tell, of course. We'll have plenty of opportunities to toss this all around tomorrow. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Alena Ventrallis Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 245	Posted - 2013.12.10 03:13:00 - [85] - Quote Judge had a good idea for balancing forge guns. Give them fall of after 100m. This gives vehicles time to approach with hardeners on, do their business, and get out. As it is, even if we do everything right, forges can still get us. I think returning their old damage and charge values and giving them the falloff he suggested would be best. Plus, it ends rooftop forging.
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4034	Posted - 2013.12.10 03:45:00 - [86] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Judge had a good idea for balancing forge guns. Give them fall of after 100m. This gives vehicles time to approach with hardeners on, do their business, and get out. As it is, even if we do everything right, forges can still get us. I think returning their old damage and charge values and giving them the falloff he suggested would be best. Plus, it ends rooftop forging. I like that idea as well, but it's likely to get a lot of flak from Forge users. My idea was aimed at trying to make the weapon more balanced without nerfing the weapon itself. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 399	Posted - 2013.12.11 03:38:00 - [87] - Quote So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? The forge gun splash radius nerf has not diminished my ability to kill infantry with it. Thank you.
Gelan Corbaine Gladiators Vanguard 241	Posted - 2013.12.11 03:50:00 - [88] - Quote Now that I've experienced 1.7 ......... not only no but HELL NO ! No job is worth doing if you don't get paid in the end .
Superhero Rawdon The Generals General Tso's Alliance 113	Posted - 2013.12.11 06:57:00 - [89] - Quote bump to OP's idea about the lasers while youre at it, add one to the HMGs i bleed chocolate milk........and poop batarangs
Mobius Wyvern Guardian Solutions DARKSTAR ARMY 4063	Posted - 2013.12.11 13:08:00 - [90] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: So... Constantly getting destroyed by forge gunners yet? Didn't I say in my post that 1.7 would determine whether this was necessary or not? I will however point out that most of the issues with "Ludicrous-Speed" on HAVs are coming from the Militia Nitrous module being bugged, and providing a 100% boost to speed and acceleration rather than 10%. I spoke with several long-time Forge Gunners yesterday who reported no problems killing HAVs after their hardeners went down. Of course, as soon as the bugged module came to be widely know about, EVERYONE started fitting them, and you now have the Speeder-Tanks. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector



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